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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: wymple on June 21, 2017, 02:56:19 PM

Title: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: wymple on June 21, 2017, 02:56:19 PM
It is heavy in rumor that Ducati is for sale (not news) and that Harley is preparing a huge offer.  Have fun with that one.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: JProdun on June 21, 2017, 03:08:10 PM
Ducati Sportster sounds about right


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: slopokes on June 21, 2017, 03:10:29 PM
The faithful would not hear of it. :smiley:
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: rdbandkab on June 21, 2017, 03:14:49 PM
Harley-Davidson enters race to buy Italian rival Ducati.

U.S. motorcycle maker Harley-Davidson is lining up a $1.67 billion takeover bid for Italian rival Ducati. 
Indian motorcycle maker Bajaj Auto and several buyout funds are also preparing bids for Ducati, which is being put up for sale by German carmaker Volkswagen.  Milwaukee-based Harley-Davidson has hired Goldman Sachs to work on the deal.
2 Hours Ago
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: guzzisteve on June 21, 2017, 03:19:07 PM
Maybe for the engineering to build a 1/2mi race bike that could win races.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: arveno on June 21, 2017, 03:22:27 PM
I hope so .
For sure better than Audi and Piaggio.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: Arizona Wayne on June 21, 2017, 03:24:19 PM
Yes, nothing is for real at this point and may not be for months.  But after what Harley did to Buell I certainly hope Ducati never has anything to do with HD.  :evil:

Can you just imagine Ducati snobs vs. Harley snobs??  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: leafman60 on June 21, 2017, 03:31:50 PM
I heard this earlier today.  Amazes me.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/21/harley-davidson-enters-race-to-buy-italian-rival-ducati.html

.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: Shorty on June 21, 2017, 03:39:16 PM
This stinks of money laundering. Buy  for big bucks. Sell back for one dollar.   Unless they are gonna bring back the Indiana....  :azn:
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on June 21, 2017, 03:56:25 PM
This stinks of money laundering. Buy  for big bucks. Sell back for one dollar.   Unless they are gonna bring back the Indiana....  :azn:

Hey! Don't go dissin the Indiana.. :evil:
 :grin:
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: lucian on June 21, 2017, 03:56:53 PM
Man shits getting weird out there. Say it aint so!  How 'bout some future models like Road Monster or Heristrada  F#*@k me gently!
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: jbell on June 21, 2017, 04:13:36 PM
Oh goody! Can you imagine if they combine dealerships into one building?  What a clash of cultures.  Enough leather to, to, to...........sorry, I can't think of a good metaphor.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: Kiwi_Roy on June 21, 2017, 04:27:09 PM
I just finished reading the book Fast Company about Ducati when a bunch of Texans owned it, turned the company around.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: sdcr on June 21, 2017, 05:05:39 PM
Harley Davidson has a long history of owning or partnering with italian motorcycle makers.

IIRC, HD bought MV Agusta about a decade ago for over 100 million. Then, they turned around two years later and sold it back to the original owners for A 1/4 of their original investment. I think Cagiva may have been bundled into that deal.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: JJ on June 21, 2017, 05:18:01 PM
Hey! Don't go dissin the Indiana.. :evil:
 :grin:


I present to you....in all their glory....the 350 / 650 Ducati Diana....now were talkin'!!  :laugh: :grin: :wink:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/nn5Bq5/Screen_Shot_2017_06_21_at_3_15_47_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/nn5Bq5)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/jVp4A5/Screen_Shot_2017_06_21_at_3_16_05_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/jVp4A5)
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: canuck750 on June 21, 2017, 05:50:20 PM
I don't think Harley did Aermacchi any favours when they took over controlling interest in that fabled brand, eventually gaining 100% control only to fold up the whole Italian motorcycle operation. Aermacchi origins where aircraft before post war restrictions forced them out of aircraft design. The Macchi C205 was one of the best fighters of the Second World War.

The Harley GP bike was built at the Lake Varese factory, read an interesting article a couple years back about the Italian designers and mechanics who built and maintained the race bikes.

I sure hope HD does not gain control of Ducati, I just don't think HD would understand or appreciate the passion that Ducati has for motorcycling and I can't think of a worse match.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: ITSec on June 21, 2017, 06:09:14 PM
I suspect they'll be every bit as successful as they were with MV Agusta.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: Arizona Wayne on June 21, 2017, 06:20:26 PM
I suspect they'll be every bit as successful as they were with MV Agusta....or with Buell for that matter.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: Aaron D. on June 21, 2017, 06:22:37 PM
Funny stuff! One of the other serious bidders will be Bajaj. I'll let y'all gurgle that.

Hero said no thanks.

No reason Harley couldn't do a decent job, They did no harm to MV and frankly EVERYONE was dumping stuff when they got rid of it.

I mean, it isn't like Audi did anything to Ducati besides give them money.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: Darren Williams on June 21, 2017, 06:28:08 PM
To me it seems like Ducati makes and sells motorcycles to fund their racing program.  Makes me wonder, or more accurately worry, what HD would do with their racing budget.

Enjoyed seeing Dovi win two in a row.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: Arizona Wayne on June 21, 2017, 06:28:33 PM
You guys gotta read the feedback on this @ www.motorcycledaily .com.  :bow:  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: Rough Edge racing on June 21, 2017, 07:38:49 PM
 Oh Jeez....Now we'll be hearing Ducati's with open drag pipes...
Title: Harley-Davidson enters race to buy Italian rival Ducati
Post by: Madtownguzzi on June 21, 2017, 07:41:25 PM
You think Harley would have learned its lesson with MV Agusta.

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-harley-davidson-enters-race-to-buy-italian-rival-ducati-sources-2017-6
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Denis on June 21, 2017, 08:01:26 PM
"Harley-Davidson enters race to buy Italian rival Ducati"

Rival? Exactly how do they compete in such a way they are considered rivals? It's like saying elephants and whales compete for the same food source.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: bad Chad on June 21, 2017, 08:04:52 PM
Shouldn't Chuck and Andy both have Indianas?  Just seems to fit.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: roadscum on June 21, 2017, 08:12:08 PM
It'd be a good thing to have some of that Ducati technology put into the H-D's. I say BRING IT baby!

Paul
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Penderic on June 21, 2017, 08:23:51 PM
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic006/ape%20and%20duck_zpshe4xxypz.jpg)

What will they call the offspring? Hmmmm ..... Godzilla!  :boozing:
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on June 21, 2017, 08:43:17 PM
 Duck Davidson in the 21st century .

 Dusty
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: LowRyter on June 21, 2017, 08:43:33 PM
yep....  I can see it now.

(http://motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/112116-2017-ducati-monster-1200-AC1_2496.jpg)

a new Sprint
(http://13252-presscdn-0-94.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/1967_Harley-Davidson_Sprint_resize.jpg)

 :shocked:
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: jwinwi on June 21, 2017, 08:47:50 PM
Surely it's a sign of the impending apocalypse. Ducati could not possibly prosper as a result of an unholy alliance with HD. 
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: MotoChuck250 on June 21, 2017, 10:01:14 PM
I hope Harley doesn't do to Ducati what they did to Buell!
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Penderic on June 21, 2017, 11:13:40 PM
Will Ducati influence HD?

Maybe now we will see finally some new TV motorcycle shows that break with the usual chopper format! Yay.

(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic006/czech_ducati-chopper_chopperweb.cz_zps9juzef7z.jpg)
or maybe not.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on June 21, 2017, 11:23:45 PM
 EEK!

 Dusty
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: ITSec on June 22, 2017, 02:03:54 AM
It'd be a good thing to have some of that Ducati technology put into the H-D's. I say BRING IT baby!

Paul

More likely we'll see HD technology moving into Ducati!  :tongue:
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: ITSec on June 22, 2017, 02:05:23 AM
Will Ducati influence HD?

Maybe now we will see finally some new TV motorcycle shows that break with the usual chopper format! Yay.

(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic006/czech_ducati-chopper_chopperweb.cz_zps9juzef7z.jpg)
or maybe not.

Please, Lord, let me unsee that!
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: kingoffleece on June 22, 2017, 05:41:50 AM
My Lord, what's next?  Jack Danial making, gasp, CANADIAN whiskey?
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on June 22, 2017, 06:23:29 AM
Hey! The new Indiana..  :smiley:
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: twowings on June 22, 2017, 06:43:44 AM
They will buy it and let it die...or worse, apply a disfiguring dose of 'Amurrican thinking' and we get another line-up of cartoon bikes... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: leafman60 on June 22, 2017, 06:57:36 AM
H-D has been talking for some time about expanding their overseas markets with more dealers. International sales have done pretty well for them so far.  Rightfully so, they are looking beyond their domestic market.

https://rideapart.com/articles/harley-davidson-plans-build-50-new-models

I suspect that the motive to buy Ducati has a lot to do with this desire.  If I recall correctly, that was also a motivation in H-D buying MV Agusta before the Great Recession.

It seems a bit odd to me but H-D management seems to have a good handle on the business. Most other manufacturers rightfully envy their financial success.

I do not think this move, if it occurs, will have negative consequences for either brand. If anything, we may see a continued development of the H-D models to appeal to our foreign cousins. The Milwaukee 8 already seems to be another move in that direction.

In the mix, Ducati may get vastly greater dealer exposure through the H-D stores or separate adjuncts to those stores throughout the US.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 22, 2017, 06:58:25 AM
I'm not sure what to make of this.

To one extent I'm ever the optimist and always wanted to see Harley expand their offerings.

I thought Buell was the right step, handled completely the wrong way.

I thought MV could at least open the door. But again.

So in the seemingly unlikely event that this happens would Harley have learned it's lesson?

* They can't force sportbikes into existing dealers who don't want/understand the market.

* They can't restrict sportbike franchises from all-brand dealers.

* They'd need to market both brands separately keeping to their strengths.


There's not A LOT of crossover to on which to capitalize, maybe a little but in suppliers like Brembo.

All that said, I wouldn't mind a multi-brand dealer that I could go to for all my needs.... Not that it will ever happen.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: leafman60 on June 22, 2017, 07:59:17 AM
Try this thought-

When H-D buys Ducati, how about them making a stop in Mandello and picking up Guzzi to boot?  Maybe a 2 for 1 deal?

.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on June 22, 2017, 08:31:13 AM
 Let's review . HD Buys Aermacchi , turns the sporting 250 CC single into a faux HD , 350 CC , split exhaust , dual mufflers , anyone want one of those pigs . They badge an Aermacchi designed 2 stroke as a Harley to go gp racing , claim a world title . Aermacchi goes out of business , Cagiva starts up in old factory .

 Harley buys MV Agusta , has no idea what to do with the brand , sells it back to the Castiglioni family for like a dollar .

 Yeah , no , third time isn't the charm , and leave Moto Guzzi alone please .

 Dusty

 
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: rocker59 on June 22, 2017, 08:41:43 AM
It'd be a good thing to have some of that Ducati technology put into the H-D's. I say BRING IT baby!

Paul

Which technology would that be ???
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: rocker59 on June 22, 2017, 08:46:22 AM
H-D management seems to have a good handle on the business. Most other manufacturers rightfully envy their financial success.
 

HD succeeds only in its niche.  Yeah, it's a big niche, but they're basically a one-trick-pony.

No one I've ever met that is involved with HD "gets it".  They have very little grasp of the motorcycling world outside their own back yard.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: kirby1923 on June 22, 2017, 08:52:06 AM
Maybe as an investment with no intention of merging the two on their showrooms.
These financial deals can get pretty complicated but maybe  looking for strategic moves to broaden their moto industry influence or even resale.
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: Tusayan on June 22, 2017, 09:46:55 AM
Harley Davidson has a long history of owning or partnering with italian motorcycle makers.

IIRC, HD bought MV Agusta about a decade ago for over 100 million. Then, they turned around two years later and sold it back to the original owners for A 1/4 of their original investment. I think Cagiva may have been bundled into that deal.

Aermacchi, Cagiva and the current 90s onward version of MV are past and present versions of the same company, operating in the same factory. Harley owned them twice, once in the 60s and 70s, another time more recently.  HD's interaction with the company was not very successful in terms of the product, but particularly in the recent case injected money to save the company, never recouped.

Both Ducati (under Texas Pacific Group) and Guzzi (under Trident Rowan Group - De Tomaso's moneyed wife was from New Jersey) have been American owned in the past.

Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Sheepdog on June 22, 2017, 09:54:12 AM
It seems as though HD has long feared the one-dimensional nature of their lineup. The weird part is that they often gravitate to Italian marques to bolster what they may offer. I really thought Harley was on to something with Buell and that truly sporting Sportster they offered a few years back, but they just couldn't seem to make it work. It is as though they fear making even the slightest deviation from the business plan that is currently working. Hopefully, they'll brace up Ducati and just let them operate as a separate entity.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Yeahoo Whoyah on June 22, 2017, 10:29:30 AM
I've heard H-D is going to drop the V-Rod, will not be offered in 2018 model line. The one modern engine design and and they can't market it and their core customers have ignored it.  Add that to the list of H-D failures and they didn't have to go to Italy to do it.   
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Lannis on June 22, 2017, 10:47:03 AM
yep....  I can see it now.
a new Sprint
(http://13252-presscdn-0-94.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/1967_Harley-Davidson_Sprint_resize.jpg)


Never had one, but I always liked those.   I'll bet that if they were ridden and treated like an Italian sporty bike and not a minibadass chugging Harley impostore, they'd be a nice bike.

Lannis
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on June 22, 2017, 10:54:01 AM
The early Sprints were pretty fun. It's probably what kindled my life long love of Italian motorcycles.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: rocker59 on June 22, 2017, 11:09:31 AM
I've heard H-D is going to drop the V-Rod, will not be offered in 2018 model line. The one modern engine design and and they can't market it and their core customers have ignored it.  Add that to the list of H-D failures and they didn't have to go to Italy to do it.

That engine is what?  25 years old, now?  Developed from the 1990s VR1000 superbike.

VRSC did have a long run on the street; 2001-2017.

Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Rough Edge racing on June 22, 2017, 11:15:35 AM
Never had one, but I always liked those.   I'll bet that if they were ridden and treated like an Italian sporty bike and not a minibadass chugging Harley impostore, they'd be a nice bike.

Lannis

  Lannis, Mike Baker on Brit Bike was racing one of those 350's in vintage racing...He did OK with it but had his share of mechanical issues...
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 22, 2017, 12:15:16 PM
That engine is what?  25 years old, now?  Developed from the 1990s VR1000 superbike.

VRSC did have a long run on the street; 2001-2017.

One might argue that the Street 750 and 500 are descendants of it in the same way a Guzzi smallblock is related to the big block. They're not identical and don't share any parts, but they are of similar design.

I can see the Street line expanding as emissions or performance figures demand it.

I wonder if it's a combination of having the Street models for those markets and water-cooled heads on some BTs for upcoming tighter standards that helped with the decision to axe the Vrod.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: rocker59 on June 22, 2017, 12:25:32 PM

You bring a good point, Kev.  Upcoming emissions in Europe may ultimately be responsible for the demise of the V-Rod.

It's never been a great seller, overall, but it was considered a success in Europe, selling better there than here.

Might have been the same thought process used by Polaris to kill Victory:  Engine needs expensive upgrades to remain compliant, but is it worth the investment? 

liquid-cooling and eight-valves on the big twins, plus the newish Street line.  Yeah, I can see how they would kill the VRSC.

Personally, I still don't know why they didn't build a Road Glide around the VRSC engine, but they never asked me!   :laugh:


Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Thunderbutt on June 22, 2017, 12:38:13 PM
I cant imagine this taking place.  Going thru Pa. on our trip we were told H/D had just laid off over one hundred employees at its Yorktown (Pa) plant. If they are so successful would they be cutting back production?
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Lannis on June 22, 2017, 12:44:22 PM
I cant imagine this taking place.  Going thru Pa. on our trip we were told H/D had just laid off over one hundred employees at its Yorktown (Pa) plant. If they are so successful would they be cutting back production?

Possibly they've given the corporate bean counters just a bit too much power .... ?

"Let's see, the cost of an employee with full benefits, pension liability and all is about $200K a year, so if we lay off 100, that would be $20,000,000 per year we'd save, and the cost of Ducati amortized over 25 years is .... let's see, carry the 2 ... yep, if we Cut Expenses by laying off a bunch of production guys, we can do it!!!   We'll be on the cover of Forbes!"

This sort of thing happens all the time; I've watched it go down ....

Lannis
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: rocker59 on June 22, 2017, 12:45:36 PM
I cant imagine this taking place.  Going thru Pa. on our trip we were told H/D had just laid off over one hundred employees at its Yorktown (Pa) plant. If they are so successful would they be cutting back production?

The overall motorcycle market is shrinking.  Harley Davidson sales are shrinking, despite retaining a huge market share of the streetbike market.

Buying another successful motorcycle company is a way to broaden market share.

Ducati is successful and profitable and would be a good way for another motorcycle company to expand in this declining market.

Yes.  I slept at a Holiday Inn Express, last night.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: jpv7 on June 22, 2017, 01:07:43 PM
Oh no, a Ducati with unplated fasteners...
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 22, 2017, 01:19:59 PM
I cant imagine this taking place.  Going thru Pa. on our trip we were told H/D had just laid off over one hundred employees at its Yorktown (Pa) plant. If they are so successful would they be cutting back production?

They still have about 50% of the US street bike market (650cc+), and they've opened assembly plants in Brazil, India, and now I believe Thailand to get around expensive import tariffs.

At the same time their sales have shrunk since the peak of something like 350k bikes/year right before the market crash to something more in the mid to upper 200k bikes/year they are now.

So combine all of that and they had more workers in York than they needed, sorry but that's life.

They are "so successful" because they are a textbook example of a small private buyout of a company that was making ~36,000 bikes a year in 1986 and they grew to a powerhouse making 10X that amount in two decades. They went public, and stockholders who were along for much of that ride enjoyed a lot of growth (including multiple splits). They treated their employees rather well (as the union rhetoric that came out during strikes right before the crash revealed better pay and benefits than similar positions anywhere around York/Harrisburg).

That's not to say they haven't also screwed up plenty, I've got a laundry list of places where I think they pushed too far or squandered opportunities, but hey, that doesn't take away what they've accomplished.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: cruzziguzzi on June 22, 2017, 02:12:22 PM


Might have been the same thought process used by Polaris to kill Victory:  Engine needs expensive upgrades to remain compliant, but is it worth the investment? 



Didn't know about that. Too bad, they seemed good motorcycles - at least the Indian thing will still be kept going.
 (http://images.memes.com/meme/1616420)
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on June 22, 2017, 02:16:09 PM
Harley has at most a decade of baby boomers keeping them afloat to turn around the company and Ducati if available may be their only hope.  Last year they laid off workers (3.5% of total workforce) in 2 plants and saw Polaris blow by with double digit increase in sales huge profits. Sure Polaris is much smaller the HOG but they are eating into HD market share. 
 From a Sept 2016 article in Forbes.
 https://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2016/09/13/harley-davidson-tough-times-ahead-in-the-domestic-market/#5670c3771fb9

"In Q2, Polaris� motorcycle sales grew 23% year-over-year and gross profit increased by 63%. Although Harley�s motorcycle and related parts revenue is more than 7x that of Polaris�, what is notable here is the trend. While the overall motorcycle industry retail sales for 901+cc were down mid-single digit percent in the second quarter, North American consumer retail demand for the Polaris motorcycle segment was up mid-teens percent. This means that Polaris is growing much more than Harley. This, however, isn�t surprising, since Polaris is much smaller and Harley already has a massive ~50% market share to protect. However, the growth levels that Polaris is managing are more than commendable and could hurt Harley�s market share � which is already under pressure from international manufacturers. While Harley lowered its full-year shipment guidance on tepid U.S. sales, Polaris announced that it expects its motorcycle sales to be up by a double-digit percentage this year."
For those who look to the future another Forbes article breaks down the best and worst case scenario for HD in the future. Interestingly they call the "heavyweight market" at anything about 601ccs. I think that the need to up that figure to 750ccs as there are a lot of 600-750 cos that are not heavy weigh bikes. As an investment and not a M/Cist I would not put my money on them in the long term after reading this piece.
https://www.trefis.com/stock/hog/model/trefis?easyAccessToken=PROVIDER_3995b9c54473513875b69a9d6d11c1d56faa28a2
Two things stick out for me long term outlook for HOG.
"U.S. Heavyweight Motorcycle sales account for almost two-thirds of the company�s overall motorcycle sales, making it the largest single geographic market for Harley-Davidson. Over the past few years, overall heavyweight motorcycle sales have declined significantly in the U.S. while international sales have increased slightly.Last paragraph in this article takes China out as a place of growth for HD or for any manufacturer.

Strict riding laws in China resist growth for Harley

"Many local governments in China have imposed laws against bike-riding in order to curb traffic and drive-by thefts associated with motorcycle riders. Low safety performance has also been cited for the restriction of bikes in some cities. Motorcycles have been banned in close to 200 cities, including the highly populated Beijing and Guangzhou. China also limits distribution of number plates to control traffic on roads. In addition, motorcycles have to be scrapped after eleven years of registration, as per law in China. This law encompasses not only the cheaper mopeds and scooters, but also high-end premium motorcycles. Strict laws laid down by the Chinese government clearly point to the absence of a leisure biking culture in the country. If no amendments are made to these regulations in the future, growth of the heavyweight motorcycle in China could continue to face headwinds."
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: rocker59 on June 22, 2017, 02:17:01 PM
Didn't know about that. Too bad, they seemed good motorcycles - at least the Indian thing will still be kept going.
 

The dealers have some pretty good deals on the few remaining Victories.

Yes, the word is that Polaris didn't want to spend the money upgrading the powertrain on the Victories to remain EU compliant.  Victory has been pretty stagnant and the money was thought better spent to bolster the roaring success of the new Indian Motorcycles.

Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: roadscum on June 22, 2017, 02:17:54 PM
Which technology would that be ???

Some of that 21st century innovation like............... ................
................... .
...........
Traction control, ride modes, cornering ABS, suspension that works, to name a few, and maybe improve handling capability or lighter more rigid  frame design, engines that don't shut down a cylinder in warm riding conditions to prevent engine failure..... It's good to see H-D finally adopted ABS but a linked system.... WTF. BMW gave that up years ago.

Paul
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: rocker59 on June 22, 2017, 02:29:43 PM
Harley...laid off workers (3.5% of total workforce) in 2 plants and saw Polaris blow by with double digit increase in sales huge profits. Sure Polaris is much smaller the HOG but they are eating into HD market share. 
 
"In Q2, Polaris� motorcycle sales grew 23% year-over-year and gross profit increased by 63%. Although Harley�s motorcycle and related parts revenue is more than 7x that of Polaris�, what is notable here is the trend. While the overall motorcycle industry retail sales for 901+cc were down mid-single digit percent in the second quarter, North American consumer retail demand for the Polaris motorcycle segment was up mid-teens percent. This means that Polaris is growing much more than Harley. This, however, isn�t surprising, since Polaris is much smaller and Harley already has a massive ~50% market share to protect. However, the growth levels that Polaris is managing are more than commendable and could hurt Harley�s market share � which is already under pressure from international manufacturers. While Harley lowered its full-year shipment guidance on tepid U.S. sales, Polaris announced that it expects its motorcycle sales to be up by a double-digit percentage this year."
For those who look to the future another Forbes article breaks down the best and worst case scenario for HD in the future. Interestingly they call the "heavyweight market" at anything about 601ccs. I think that the need to up that figure to 750ccs as there are a lot of 600-750 cos that are not heavy weigh bikes. As an investment and not a M/Cist I would not put my money on them in the long term after reading this piece.
 

These articles always frustrate me.  Here's why:

"Rocker59 motors has reported a 100% increase in motorcycle sales, while Harley Davidson has seen a 3.5% decrease.  Rocker59 motors is clearly cutting into HD marketshare, and the MoCo appears concerned"

Here's the part that they always leave out:

(Rocker59 motors increased sales from one (1) to two(2) vehicles last year.  H-D was down to 235,000 from the previous year's 243,225 sales.)

Yes, Polaris is kicking ass with Indian.  But, but, but their volume increases (in numbers) are minuscule as compared to H-D.  Harley Davidson makes more bikes per week than Indian does in two years !!!
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 22, 2017, 02:32:56 PM
These articles always frustrate me.  Here's why:

"Rocker59 motors has reported a 100% increase in motorcycle sales, while Harley Davidson has seen a 3.5% decrease.  Rocker59 motors is clearly cutting into HD marketshare, and the MoCo appears concerned"

Here's the part that they always leave out:

(Rocker59 motors increased sales from one (1) to two(2) vehicles last year.  H-D was down to 235,000 from the previous year's 243,225 sales.)

Yes, Polaris is kicking ass with Indian.  But, but, but their volume increases (in numbers) are minuscule as compared to H-D.  Harley Davidson makes more bikes per week than Indian does in two years !!!


Agreed, though I'm not sure I'd just start investing in Harley right now either. But then again, I let my "financial adviser" talk me out of moving $10k into Ford when it was $1/share, so I might not be the best guy to talk to anyway.

But yes, Polaris has a LONG LONG way to go to approach Harley in MOTORCYCLE sales. 
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 22, 2017, 02:43:44 PM
Some of that 21st century innovation like............... ................
................... .
...........
Traction control, ride modes, cornering ABS, suspension that works, to name a few, and maybe improve handling capability or lighter more rigid  frame design, engines that don't shut down a cylinder in warm riding conditions to prevent engine failure..... It's good to see H-D finally adopted ABS but a linked system.... WTF. BMW gave that up years ago.

Paul

I see traction control as important on current Harley models as it is on the V7 series.

I'm not sure of the differences between cornering ABS and the other ABS systems I've got in the garage, but that said the Reflex Linked Brembo ABS system on my new Harley seems pretty damn good so far. Yes it is linked, sorta. It balances the brakes front to rear at speeds over something around 35 mph IIRC. It's doing it so electronically not mechanically, so I can literally 1 finger brake my 800# tour bike if I want to. But I can sorta get some feedback into the pedal and lever if I'm using them both properly. I'd certainly not poo-poo it until I tried it.

Handling is excellent on the models that prioritize it (i.e. that aren't lowered for customer reasons). Both my Sporty and RK do quite fine.

Weight, I'll give you that, but it's a two-edged sword. They build to extreme durable tolerances weighted by some odd anti-lawsuit BS standards, like a brake lever that has to be able to withstand a 300# man standing on it in his garage to reach a shelf or some stupid things. I wouldn't mind a lighter overall line, but I don't want/need them to be Ducati or even Smallblock Guzzi light.

The engine cut-out feature is not to prevent engine failure. Trust me I've gotten stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on multiple EFI Harleys over the years in summer temperatures and sometimes for HOURS. And that's occurred on bikes with and without the system. And guess what, it never kicked in on the one that had it. Now granted that was my 07 and it wasn't as sophisticated a system as what is supposedly on my RK, so we'll see. But in any case the whole damned thing is about rider comfort when stuck in traffic. And it's a pretty smart system if you think about it.

Most people who don't like Harleys don't bother to understand the technology they use and why they do it. They don't pursue tech just for tech's sake like BMW, they use it to address the needs/desires of their customer base, and I generally think they do a very good job of it.

I like the linked Brembo ABS, responsive RBW EFI, reliable auto-cancelling turn signals, plug-n-play additional running/brake lights, and tech that Harley has used, along with some amazing things that Moto Guzzi has never seemed to get right - like VALVE TRAINS... especially Hydraulic ones.

Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: rocker59 on June 22, 2017, 03:17:16 PM
Some of that 21st century innovation like............... ................
................... .
...........
Traction control, ride modes, cornering ABS, suspension that works, to name a few, and maybe improve handling capability or lighter more rigid  frame design, engines that don't shut down a cylinder in warm riding conditions to prevent engine failure..... It's good to see H-D finally adopted ABS but a linked system.... WTF. BMW gave that up years ago.

Paul

The auto-park feature is what I'm holding out for.  I'll not buy another motorcycle until they incorporate auto-park.  I want to be able to pull crossways across traffic, push a button, then have the computer back my motorcycle into the "motorcycle only" spot in front of the bar down on Dickson Street.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL   :shocked:
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Tennmoto on June 22, 2017, 03:25:04 PM
One thing I've noticed all along in the motorcycle market some of us like continued similar design
That evolves and similar parts can be available even on much older bikes, and many more people
Understand how to fix them. Also the strength of aftermarket options available because of large production numbers. Those things and the fairly successful "boutique " design of the dealerships.
That rich guy from Omaha saw these things and invested in HD.
 There are some negative things too though. It's my belief that the Sportster line is a durable. Reliable
Model. The big twins are debatable. Many owners say they haven't had problems and put lots of miles
And some have had camshaft bearings, tensioner problems and in my case the voltage regulator-stator
Failure that costs $700 plus to fix, on a Softail with 12k miles, which led me to trade it in for a Victory.
So there is some concern for durability with extended warranties costing a lot.
But you know the motorcycle buyer has other interests than reliability, many buyers avoiding the brand
For Metric cruisers because of the culture perceived. So it must be really difficult to figure out what's
Really going on but I think with the new motor HD could compete with Indian and they are paying
Attention to the growing Indian movement
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: canuck750 on June 22, 2017, 03:43:49 PM
Harley is THE marketing success storey of the two wheel world, no question about it, HD is brilliant at selling bikes and the "lifestyle" image. I am currently looking to buy what may be my last big touring sled and the list gets pretty narrow as I start to compare what is offered in the price category.

At the top of the heap in Canadian Dollars are the Honda GL1800, The BMW K1600GTL and the Harley Ultra Limited, all around the same $33K to get a nicely equipped bike.

The Honda and BMW are pretty similarly equipped, both have a water cooled six, the BMW puts out 160 hp, 129 ft.lbs, the Honda 118 hp / 123 ft.lbs. Harley only publishes torque and the new engine is listed at 113 ft.lbs (any idea of horsepower?).

Weight wise the BMW is 762 lbs, 904 for the GL1800 and 908 for the HD.

Technology wise the BMW is ahead with DTS - Dynamic Traction Control, ESA - Electronic Suspension Control, ASC - Automatic Stability Control and standard ABS. They also have adaptive Standard Cruise Control, LED lighting, Adaptive Brake lights, Tire Pressure Monitor, Side Mirror Warning, Touch Screen GPS, Power Wind Screen, Heated seats and grips and a pretty impressive stereo.

The GL1800 is similarly equipped but lacks DTC and DSC, no power windshield, but can be ordered with an air bag and has adaptable air ride suspension.

The Harley has ABS and cruise control and a top of the line stereo and an endless list of accessories to dress up the ride.

On a purely analytical review I think the BMW is the clear leader in lowest weight, powerful engine, safety features and convenience features.

Honda probably has the best long term / high mileage / dependability rating.

Harley manages to out sell both of its competitors. Go figure.




Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: rocker59 on June 22, 2017, 03:45:22 PM

some of us like continued similar design
That evolves and similar parts can be available even on much older bikes, 

in my case the voltage regulator-stator Failure that costs $700 plus to fix, on a Softail with 12k miles, which led me to trade it in for a Victory.

So there is some concern for durability with extended warranties costing a lot.
 

So, you traded a Harley Davidson for a dead in the water Victory because it will have better long term parts availability and a better extended warranty ???
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: LowRyter on June 22, 2017, 04:00:00 PM
I see no synergy, cross over, nor shared design, engineering, manufacturing, retail, distribution, marketing or parts.

Buell, MV, and now Ducati (that's even draining money from VW)?  :violent1:

Basically nothing shared between the two companies but two wheels.  :boxing:

Sorta like Lamborghinis and tractors.  Oh wait.  That didn't make my point.   :shocked:
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on June 22, 2017, 04:26:34 PM
Harley is THE marketing success storey of the two wheel world, no question about it, HD is brilliant at selling bikes and the "lifestyle" image.

Harley's "lifestyle" image is dying a slow death and it's the death of my generation is taking them to the grave.  HD built it on the growth of baby boomers and the housing boom. They all but went belly up during the recession because the first thing people shed during a recession is their image. Images cost money and if you are out of work and or taking a big pay cut that means by by disposable income. Harley's image has to change and I do not believe they can change it. How do you sell really big chrome motorcycles to the up and coming Millennium's. That are not into that.

 1st quarter 2017 sucked big time. Low sales, left over revenue from 2016 and used MC prices lower. And all this with a 4.3% unemployment rate.
By
Andrew
Tangel

Harley-Davidson Inc.'s revenue fell 14% in the first quarter as the motorcycle maker's retail sales slid in the in the U.S. and abroad.

Milwaukee-based Harley said it faced weak pricing on used motorcycles, a buildup of 2016 inventory at its dealers and sluggish sales in areas of the U.S. that depend on the oil industry, executives said in a call with analysts Tuesday.

Revenue from motorcycles and related products of $1.33 billion came in below analysts' consensus of $1.36 billion.

Earnings per-share fell 23% to $1.05 from the prior year. Net income was $186.4 million, down from $250.5 million in the first quarter last year. Analysts polled by Thomson Reuters were expecting earnings of $1.02 per share.Harley maintained its outlook for the year, predicting full-year motorcycle shipments to be flat to down modestly compared to last year. The company didn't release revenue guidance.

The company expects to ship approximately 80,000 to 85,000 motorcycles in the second quarter. That was below the FactSet consensus of 88,160. Harley has been reducing shipments of newer models to encourage dealers to shed existing inventory."
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: roadscum on June 22, 2017, 04:41:44 PM
I see traction control as important on current Harley models as it is on the V7 series.

........
....

Handling is excellent on the models that prioritize it (i.e. that aren't lowered for customer reasons). Both my Sporty and RK do quite fine.


The engine cut-out feature is not to prevent engine failure. Trust me I've gotten stuck in bumper-to-bumper traffic on multiple EFI Harleys over the years in summer temperatures and sometimes for HOURS. And that's occurred on bikes with and without the system. And guess what, it never kicked in on the one that had it. Now granted that was my 07 and it wasn't as sophisticated a system as what is supposedly on my RK, so we'll see. But in any case the whole damned thing is about rider comfort when stuck in traffic. And it's a pretty smart system if you think about it.

Most people who don't like Harleys don't bother to understand the technology they use and why they do it. They don't pursue tech just for tech's sake like BMW, they use it to address the needs/desires of their customer base, and I generally think they do a very good job of it.

......
....
..

"Handling  is excellent": Sure  for a H-D, but not even in the same  game as any Ducati.

"The engine cut-out feature is not to prevent engine failure": So why is it there. I can attest to the fact that here in SW Florida it does indeed function as needed.

"They don't pursue tech just for tech's sake like BMW, they use it to address the needs/desires of their customer base....."

Most Harley riders don't know  the value of technology, most want only noise  and  chrome, that I get.
The tech can be a valuable safety feature, add to rider comfort and convenience, improve bike versatility. and in general make  you a better rider.  Spend a week on a BMW or Ducati and they'll understand.

Paul
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on June 22, 2017, 04:46:54 PM
 Canuck 750 , your question regarding HD horsepower depends on where the 113 lbs ft of torque is measured . If it is taken at 3,000 RPM's that equals about 65 HP . At 3,500 about 68 HP .

 Dusty
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: canuck750 on June 22, 2017, 04:57:31 PM
Canuck 750 , your question regarding HD horsepower depends on where the 113 lbs ft of torque is measured . If it is taken at 3,000 RPM's that equals about 65 HP . At 3,500 about 68 HP .

 Dusty

Really!!, 68 horse power, I thought they were putting out near 95 hp by now, my 72 850 Eldorado isn't too far off those horse power numbers.

The Ultra is weighing in at over 900 lbs, no wonder the Road King and Street Glide's I rented in 2014 / 2015 felt like they had governors on them.

The comments about HD applying technology only where it makes sense, just doesn't make sense.
Better adaptive suspension, stability control, traction control, ... are valuable things, especially on a 900 pound machine.

The build your bike pages kind of says it all, on the BMW web page you select options for safety, ergonomics, lighting etc, on the Harley pages you select trim, paint, chrome, custom wheels ........ all bling.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on June 22, 2017, 05:02:07 PM
 Canuck , they probably are making over 80 HP at 5,000 RPM's , I was just using the peak torque figure and using the formula for HP .

  HP = torque x RPM's over 5252 .

 Since we don't know where the peak torque is rated I just pulled out a figure . HD engines are low RPM , so I used 3,000 as a benchmark .


 Dusty
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: bad Chad on June 22, 2017, 05:13:11 PM
I don't know what to think about this.

I live in a fairly affluent area of the country, and I see a good number of young riders, many on new bikes.  This is only anecdotal, but many of them are ridding new or newish HDs.  And many are on Yammaha/Suzuki/Kawasaki/Honda 500-1000cc standards, along with a good smattering of Groms and such.

I too have trouble seeing how their could be much synergy between HD and Ducati? 
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: JJ on June 22, 2017, 05:21:29 PM
So, you traded a Harley Davidson for a dead in the water Victory because it will have better long term parts availability and a better extended warranty ???

Hey now!  :wink: :laugh: :grin: - - Have owned / ridden 4 Big Twin Harley's, and they are excellent road bikes...but so are Victory's...and even though they are "dead" now...parts / service will still available for the next ten years. :thumb: :1: :cool: 

"Hell Hath No Fury...like Moby Dick" - aka The Great White Whale!  :laugh: :grin: :wink:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/ngmKtQ/IMG_0949.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ngmKtQ)



(http://thumb.ibb.co/knQOL5/Moby_Dick_Illustration_xl.jpg) (http://ibb.co/knQOL5)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/hriXDQ/moby_DICK.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hriXDQ)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/b4GV05/Moby_Dick_1.jpg) (http://ibb.co/b4GV05)


Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 22, 2017, 05:24:31 PM
Really!!, 68 horse power, I thought they were putting out near 95 hp by now, my 72 850 Eldorado isn't too far off those horse power numbers.

If you were to put your Eldo on a dyno, I'll bet you'd be lucky to see 40 rwhp which is maybe 50? bhp.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: drums4money on June 22, 2017, 05:41:23 PM
Considering that other potential suitors are profit-only VC groups, Harley could be the safest harbor.  Despite their seemingly hyper reliance on lifestyle rather than performance, HD is a two-wheeled vehicle.  VC companies- at least in my industry experence- only have a passion for cutting everything to the bone searching for the last possible bare cent.  They dumb the product, kill the marketing, and drive away the talent. 

Better Harley than Bain.   
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 22, 2017, 05:58:52 PM
Considering that other potential suitors are profit-only VC groups, Harley could be the safest harbor.  Despite their seemingly hyper reliance on lifestyle rather than performance, HD is a two-wheeled vehicle.  VC companies- at least in my industry experence- only have a passion for cutting everything to the bone searching for the last possible bare cent.  They dumb the product, kill the marketing, and drive away the talent. 

Better Harley than Bain.

Bajaj? Builds bikes for KTM. Might be better than Harley.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: twowings on June 22, 2017, 06:03:02 PM
If you were to put your Eldo on a dyno, I'll bet you'd be lucky to see 40 rwhp which is maybe 50? bhp.

Which is all the 99% need, anyway...
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: pebra on June 22, 2017, 06:10:54 PM
Considering that other potential suitors are profit-only VC groups, Harley could be the safest harbor.  Despite their seemingly hyper reliance on lifestyle rather than performance, HD is a two-wheeled vehicle.  VC companies- at least in my industry experence- only have a passion for cutting everything to the bone searching for the last possible bare cent.  They dumb the product, kill the marketing, and drive away the talent. 

Better Harley than Bain.

Wasn't that venture capital turning Ducati round and actually making a success story out of the brand?
Title: Re: Harley Ducks?
Post by: Murray on June 22, 2017, 06:12:58 PM
Oh goody! Can you imagine if they combine dealerships into one building?  What a clash of cultures.  Enough leather to, to, to...........sorry, I can't think of a good metaphor.

You don't have to imagine it exists a whole chain of them http://www.frasermotorcycles.com.au
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 22, 2017, 06:20:00 PM


"Handling  is excellent": Sure  for a H-D, but not even in the same  game as any Ducati.

"The engine cut-out feature is not to prevent engine failure": So why is it there. I can attest to the fact that here in SW Florida it does indeed function as needed.

"They don't pursue tech just for tech's sake like BMW, they use it to address the needs/desires of their customer base....."

Most Harley riders don't know  the value of technology, most want only noise  and  chrome, that I get.
The tech can be a valuable safety feature, add to rider comfort and convenience, improve bike versatility. and in general make  you a better rider.  Spend a week on a BMW or Ducati and they'll understand.

Paul

Paul, out of curiosity how many Harleys have you owned? How many have you ridden?

Not the same game as Duc, gee really? You mean cruisers, touring bikes, and classic standards don't have the same handling as sportbikes?

That's not the point though, when ridden on the street in even remotely responsible speeds they handle just fine and a number might surprise you.

As for your generalizations and love of tech I'm not buying everything you're selling. Having ridden Harleys for almost a quarter century I wouldn't presume to know what MOST Harley riders do or don't know about technology. That said many people aren't looking for the level is tech you can find on a BMW. Safety and comfort are fine goals but if that's what you really want then at some point a motorcycle isn't the right choice.

As a multi-time BMW and Guzzi owner I still seem to instead choose a Harley twice as often.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: drums4money on June 22, 2017, 06:24:00 PM
Bajaj? Builds bikes for KTM. Might be better than Harley.

Won't disagree.  Is Bajaj controlling interest in KTM, or a manufacturing partner that allows KTM better entry into those world markets where smaller displacement are the revenue and margin leaders?  I don't know. . . but I do know I would love a smaller displacement KTM like the RC390.

There's a sporting/performance mindset surrounding KTM that hasn't been long-term or successfully sustained by HD other than flat-track.  An Indian company might have more discipline to allow a company with some brand equity like Ducati to leverage that strength.  For example, Tata have done more to re-establish the British'ness of Jaguar than Ford ever could, and the brand has experienced tremendous revitalization.  New model introductions feel more Jaguar where they were otherwise on the road to becoming the next Crown Victoria with FoMoCo. 

So, yes.  Bajaj might could pull it off.  Tata, for that matter, could possibly give Ducati the same autonomy that VW/Audi did and push smaller displacement development in a similar way that Bajaj has with KTM. 
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: drums4money on June 22, 2017, 06:32:40 PM
Wasn't that venture capital turning Ducati round and actually making a success story out of the brand?

Yes.  TPG did turn it around.  They also had interests in a few other lifestyle brands like J.Crew, Piaggio, and wine/spirits.  Bain Capital, however, seem to be dissecting a major component of my industry to the point that they appear to be swirling the drain.  So there was something in the makeup of TPG that felt and acted more like turnaround versus liquidation as with some other VC activity. 
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 22, 2017, 06:36:49 PM


Really!!, 68 horse power, I thought they were putting out near 95 hp by now, my 72 850 Eldorado isn't too far off those horse power numbers.

The Ultra is weighing in at over 900 lbs, no wonder the Road King and Street Glide's I rented in 2014 / 2015 felt like they had governors on them.

The comments about HD applying technology only where it makes sense, just doesn't make sense.
Better adaptive suspension, stability control, traction control, ... are valuable things, especially on a 900 pound machine.

The build your bike pages kind of says it all, on the BMW web page you select options for safety, ergonomics, lighting etc, on the Harley pages you select trim, paint, chrome, custom wheels ........ all bling.

As Dusty said peak dyno numbers are much more than your Eldo.

Can't say about what you rented but my new 2016 RK gets up and goes. I think stock 1/4 mile numbers are only in the 13's but hey it's an 800# bike.

You obviously didn't get the comment about applying tech where it is WANTED. 

The options for Harley include:

ABS
Cruise
Security
And yes lighting, as I've mentioned. For $50-75 you can convert the rear turn signals to additional running and brake lights.

Their catalog has LED headlights (standard on some models) and driving lights.

Sure there's plenty of chrome and other crap too, so what, it's not my thing but it doesn't mean all the customers only care about that.

I just don't see active suspensions or heated seats as such a big deal.

Doesn't mean the suspension on my RK is poorly designed or not up to the task.

<shrugs>

Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Tennmoto on June 22, 2017, 08:02:30 PM
So, you traded a Harley Davidson for a dead in the water Victory because it will have better long term parts availability and a better extended warranty ???
At the time no one knew Polaris was closing Victory. That was a few years ago. I still believe Victory
Was a well engineered motorcycle. I wish they were still around. I have a Sportster 1200R and an
02 California Stone.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: kingoffleece on June 22, 2017, 08:23:44 PM
Harley's "lifestyle" image is dying a slow death and it's the death of my generation is taking them to the grave.  HD built it on the growth of baby boomers and the housing boom. They all but went belly up during the recession because the first thing people shed during a recession is their image. Images cost money and if you are out of work and or taking a big pay cut that means by by disposable income. Harley's image has to change and I do not believe they can change it. How do you sell really big chrome motorcycles to the up and coming Millennium's. That are not into that.

 1st quarter 2017 sucked big time. Low sales, left over revenue from 2016 and used MC prices lower. And all this with a 4.3% unemployment rate.
By
Andrew

Tangel

Harley-Davidson Inc.'s revenue fell 14% in the first quarter as the motorcycle maker's retail sales slid in the in the U.S. and abroad.

Milwaukee-based Harley said it faced weak pricing on used motorcycles, a buildup of 2016 inventory at its dealers and sluggish sales in areas of the U.S. that depend on the oil industry, executives said in a call with analysts Tuesday.

Revenue from motorcycles and related products of $1.33 billion came in below analysts' consensus of $1.36 billion.

Earnings per-share fell 23% to $1.05 from the prior year. Net income was $186.4 million, down from $250.5 million in the first quarter last year. Analysts polled by Thomson Reuters were expecting earnings of $1.02 per share.Harley maintained its outlook for the year, predicting full-year motorcycle shipments to be flat to down modestly compared to last year. The company didn't release revenue guidance.

The company expects to ship approximately 80,000 to 85,000 motorcycles in the second quarter. That was below the FactSet consensus of 88,160. Harley has been reducing shipments of newer models to encourage dealers to shed existing inventory."

Revenue fell from 1.36 to 1.33 BILLION.  Billion.  That's not a big drop but look at the results.  Their fixed costs must be astronomical to have EPS drop 23%.  I'm no corporate CPA but I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night and those financials scare me big time. What does Buffett know that I'm missing?
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: roadscum on June 22, 2017, 08:55:40 PM

Paul, out of curiosity how many Harleys have you owned? How many have you ridden?

Not the same game as Duc, gee really? You mean cruisers, touring bikes, and classic standards don't have the same handling as sportbikes?

That's not the point though, when ridden on the street in even remotely responsible speeds they handle just fine and a number might surprise you.

As for your generalizations and love of tech I'm not buying everything you're selling. Having ridden Harleys for almost a quarter century I wouldn't presume to know what MOST Harley riders do or don't know about technology. That said many people aren't looking for the level is tech you can find on a BMW. Safety and comfort are fine goals but if that's what you really want then at some point a motorcycle isn't the right choice.

As a multi-time BMW and Guzzi owner I still seem to instead choose a Harley twice as often.

I'm selling nothing, just sharing my opinion Kev, it's as valid as yours We're allowed to have difference values and opinions when it comes to our rides. It's OK.

My opinions are based on my experiences. here's a brief synopsis: Been riding for 55+ years, was an MSF/instructor/rider coach in NY before relocating to Fl. I've lost track of the number of bikes owned and the number of times I've ridden coast to coast. Since retiring 13 years ago I average 20-25K miles/year. From '09 to '15 I kept a bike in Europe, Heidelberg Germany and would spend 8 weeks each summer touring Europe.  Spent a few years as a track junky 1st on a SV650 the a Triumph Daytona 675.

My 1st  H-D was an '89 FXR in 1990, then a FLHTP, 2 RK's the last an '04 Road King with a custom built motor by Cyclerama in Fl and heavily modified suspension, took it across country twice. Almost forgot the Buells, an S2 and a Uly. Last October I spent a few hours on a M8 RK and Street Glide Special when in Denver. I was considering a M8 RK but we just didn't bond. No suprise there. Instead I'll likely get a '17 V7 Special, blue of course to match the others in my garage.

During most of the 90's the lady in my life owned a H-D dealership in NY. During that period I road any H-D I wanted, was active in HOG, had dinner with V. Beals, Willie and Nancy, and others on several occasions at recognition evens.(She owned a high performing dealership) Have  had private tours of the assembly pant and the development center and have ridden with the executives. I think I have a fair understanding of H-D products, the business, and the culture.

Paul
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: canuck750 on June 22, 2017, 10:00:13 PM

As Dusty said peak dyno numbers are much more than your Eldo.

Can't say about what you rented but my new 2016 RK gets up and goes. I think stock 1/4 mile numbers are only in the 13's but hey it's an 800# bike.

You obviously didn't get the comment about applying tech where it is WANTED. 

The options for Harley include:

ABS
Cruise
Security
And yes lighting, as I've mentioned. For $50-75 you can convert the rear turn signals to additional running and brake lights.

Their catalog has LED headlights (standard on some models) and driving lights.

Sure there's plenty of chrome and other crap too, so what, it's not my thing but it doesn't mean all the customers only care about that.

I just don't see active suspensions or heated seats as such a big deal.

Doesn't mean the suspension on my RK is poorly designed or not up to the task.

<shrugs>

Fair discussion,  but If Harley Offered Dynamic Stability Control and/or traction control I wonder if buyers would pay for it?

I find it Ironic that most HD riders I see when in the United States (mostly AZ, NV, NM and CA) the majority are not wearing much if any protective gear and these riders would benefit more than most with more safety features engineered into the bike.

Most HD riders that I see around Phoenix don't wear helmets or gloves let alone a decent jacket. 'Fashion' leather such as a snap up vest or snap up chaps seem to be the de rigour apparel. I think it may be a case that most HD riders aren't going to pay for safety / technology. I think its unfortunate that fashion and conforming to the 'look' trumps common sense.

I spoke to a couple Sheriffs in Southern California last week who where on decked out Harley police bikes, the machines looked very impressive. I asked them how they liked them, I was on my old RT and they said they wished they had BMW's or the Concourse Police bike but that they do a lot of escort parade duty and in the past locals complained about the force being on foreign bikes. The Sheriffs said that the power, handling and safety features of the BMW were missed by most all of the force. Putting an officers safety at a disadvantage to appease local perception is sad.

Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 23, 2017, 02:16:37 AM
I'm selling nothing, just sharing my opinion Kev, it's as valid as yours We're allowed to have difference values and opinions when it comes to our rides. It's OK.

My opinions are based on my experiences. here's a brief synopsis: Been riding for 55+ years, was an MSF/instructor/rider coach in NY before relocating to Fl. I've lost track of the number of bikes owned and the number of times I've ridden coast to coast. Since retiring 13 years ago I average 20-25K miles/year. From '09 to '15 I kept a bike in Europe, Heidelberg Germany and would spend 8 weeks each summer touring Europe.  Spent a few years as a track junky 1st on a SV650 the a Triumph Daytona 675.

My 1st  H-D was an '89 FXR in 1990, then a FLHTP, 2 RK's the last an '04 Road King with a custom built motor by Cyclerama in Fl and heavily modified suspension, took it across country twice. Almost forgot the Buells, an S2 and a Uly. Last October I spent a few hours on a M8 RK and Street Glide Special when in Denver. I was considering a M8 RK but we just didn't bond. No suprise there. Instead I'll likely get a '17 V7 Special, blue of course to match the others in my garage.

During most of the 90's the lady in my life owned a H-D dealership in NY. During that period I road any H-D I wanted, was active in HOG, had dinner with V. Beals, Willie and Nancy, and others on several occasions at recognition evens.(She owned a high performing dealership) Have  had private tours of the assembly pant and the development center and have ridden with the executives. I think I have a fair understanding of H-D products, the business, and the culture.

Paul
I realized after I posted that we're largely arguing taste and that never goes anywhere. But I see from where your opinions come and if we disagree I think it's largely back to the taste thing. Though I seem to have to bow to your experience with other Harley riders. Maybe I'm a victim of coloring my perceptions too much with my optimism.

But thanks for taking the time to explain it.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 23, 2017, 02:26:18 AM
Fair discussion,  but If Harley Offered Dynamic Stability Control and/or traction control I wonder if buyers would pay for it?

I find it Ironic that most HD riders I see when in the United States (mostly AZ, NV, NM and CA) the majority are not wearing much if any protective gear and these riders would benefit more than most with more safety features engineered into the bike.

Most HD riders that I see around Phoenix don't wear helmets or gloves let alone a decent jacket. 'Fashion' leather such as a snap up vest or snap up chaps seem to be the de rigour apparel. I think it may be a case that most HD riders aren't going to pay for safety / technology. I think its unfortunate that fashion and conforming to the 'look' trumps common sense.

I spoke to a couple Sheriffs in Southern California last week who where on decked out Harley police bikes, the machines looked very impressive. I asked them how they liked them, I was on my old RT and they said they wished they had BMW's or the Concourse Police bike but that they do a lot of escort parade duty and in the past locals complained about the force being on foreign bikes. The Sheriffs said that the power, handling and safety features of the BMW were missed by most all of the force. Putting an officers safety at a disadvantage to appease local perception is sad.
Well at least at a few dealerships I've dealt with it's hard to find a model without ABS so I suspect the Harley public, at least regionally WILL pay for safety features, but I'm sure there's a sliding scale where if they get too expensive it would drop off.

Phoenix and much of the Southwest is a different world when compared with the east coast. The temps alone discourage many from attgat.

I'm not going to try and say that the BMW and Harley demographics share a lot of the same priorities, but I think both you and the motor officers in question are putting more faith in safety tech than I do. That's not to say I discount it completely, but the single most important factor is the nut behind the bars, the rest equals a ever increasingly smaller and smaller percentage of the stats.

I still don't know that even I'd care about DSC or TC, especially on the types of bikes I ride. But yes I can see some value in it for motor officers. Just how much though I dunno. I think much would depend on their duties which around here doesn't really seem to me highway patrol or high speed pursuit.

Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Murray on June 23, 2017, 05:07:28 AM

Paul, out of curiosity how many Harleys have you owned? How many have you ridden?

Not the same game as Duc, gee really? You mean cruisers, touring bikes, and classic standards don't have the same handling as sportbikes?

That's not the point though, when ridden on the street in even remotely responsible speeds they handle just fine and a number might surprise you.

As for your generalizations and love of tech I'm not buying everything you're selling. Having ridden Harleys for almost a quarter century I wouldn't presume to know what MOST Harley riders do or don't know about technology. That said many people aren't looking for the level is tech you can find on a BMW. Safety and comfort are fine goals but if that's what you really want then at some point a motorcycle isn't the right choice.

As a multi-time BMW and Guzzi owner I still seem to instead choose a Harley twice as often.

Harleys ride like every other cruiser out there including Guzzi 1400s and that is bloody awlful, yes some are less worse than others. If that is acceptable to you great go and enjoy your motor cycle but the fantasy story that something thats has compromised dynamics all for a look is pretty good compared to almost everything else out there is just that. Its friday here BTW :P
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 23, 2017, 06:10:32 AM
Harleys ride like every other cruiser out there including Guzzi 1400s and that is bloody awlful, yes some are less worse than others. If that is acceptable to you great go and enjoy your motor cycle but the fantasy story that something thats has compromised dynamics all for a look is pretty good compared to almost everything else out there is just that. Its friday here BTW :P

Subjective and I'm tired of arguing that.

PS - said "compromised dynamics" = not just Harley (and arguably everything now from Guzzi), but also the majority of road going motorcycles in the US.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: roadscum on June 23, 2017, 08:45:52 AM
I realized after I posted that we're largely arguing taste and that never goes anywhere. But I see from where your opinions come and if we disagree I think it's largely back to the taste thing. Though I seem to have to bow to your experience with other Harley riders. Maybe I'm a victim of coloring my perceptions too much with my optimism.

But thanks for taking the time to explain it.

No problem Kev. Sorry I was so long winded, that happens to me sometimes after a few IPA's.  :boozing: :boozing:

It would be nice to swap stories with you face to face. I always enjoy a chat with an honest enthusiast.

Paul
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 23, 2017, 08:47:15 AM
No problem Kev. Sorry I was so long winded, that happens to me sometimes after a few IPA's.  :boozing: :boozing:

It would be nice to swap stories with you face to face. I always enjoy a chat with an honest enthusiast.

Paul
:thumb:

No one on a forum EVER needs to apologize to me about being long winded.  :grin:


Or having a couple of IPAs!  :boozing:


Agreed, it would be fun.

Thanks again for the discussion and refreshed perspective.


Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Sheepdog on June 23, 2017, 03:14:03 PM
It occurs to me that we aren't really talking about motorcycles, but the difference between a motorcycle enthusiast and an adult toy collector. I know some really sharp riders and some real moto-knuckleheads. Both of these demographics spend a bunch of money on bikes/gear. Can you blame a manufacturer for marketing to both groups?
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: roadscum on June 23, 2017, 03:39:36 PM
It occurs to me that we aren't really talking about motorcycles, but the difference between a motorcycle enthusiast and an adult toy collector. I know some really sharp riders and some real moto-knuckleheads. Both of these demographics spend a bunch of money on bikes/gear. Can you blame a manufacturer for marketing to both groups?

I like the way you think, right on!  :thumb:

Please, no more about your adult toy collection,  not here....  :whip2:

Paul

Paul
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on June 23, 2017, 04:16:54 PM
It occurs to me that we aren't really talking about motorcycles, but the difference between a motorcycle enthusiast and an adult toy collector. I know some really sharp riders and some real moto-knuckleheads. Both of these demographics spend a bunch of money on bikes/gear. Can you blame a manufacturer for marketing to both groups?
That's true for sure, but arguably there are some of each in both the Harley and Ducati camps, and probably a few in the BMW camp too, though I suspect a smaller percentage.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on June 23, 2017, 04:38:25 PM
 I have this scary mental image of packs of Ducati riders wearing assless chaps and sporting get back whips . Hhhhooowwwwaaaahhhh . Thanks a lot guys .

 Dusty
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: JJ on June 23, 2017, 05:04:41 PM
I think at the end of the day...if I were ever to buy a Ducati...it would be something like THIS!!  :thumb: :1: :cool:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/kRNwQ5/Screen_Shot_2017_06_23_at_3_03_36_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/kRNwQ5)


Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on June 23, 2017, 05:16:59 PM
I think at the end of the day...if I were ever to buy a Ducati...it would be something like THIS!!  :thumb: :1: :cool:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/kRNwQ5/Screen_Shot_2017_06_23_at_3_03_36_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/kRNwQ5)


That was my first Ducati I bought new in 1973. I traded I a 1972 HD FX Super Glide which was easily the worst Harley ever produce.
One  can blame AMF for this debacle but Willie Davidson himself designed this bike that was supposed to lift Harley Davidson from the ash heap.
Instead in just helped bury the company deeper in the bog. It was lucky to recover.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: canuck750 on June 23, 2017, 06:22:46 PM
It occurs to me that we aren't really talking about motorcycles, but the difference between a motorcycle enthusiast and an adult toy collector. I know some really sharp riders and some real moto-knuckleheads. Both of these demographics spend a bunch of money on bikes/gear. Can you blame a manufacturer for marketing to both groups?

I think I have a foot on both sides of that line. For every day riding I have owned very few bikes, I tend to keep them for 10+ years and they are just tools to get me out on the road and see the country, I love my motorcycling not my motorcycle. I have been a long distance rider for twenty years and don't much enjoy a ride of an hour or two around town. My current long time favorites are my KLR 650 for solo riding, I have put on 40,000 km on a couple of them in the past 5 years. Second useful bike is my old RT but I tend to only use it for two up riding.

On the other side of the game is my love of restoring old motorcycles. Before I got into Guzzi's I sold every Japanese bike I rebuilt. I really like the Guzz's and some of the other Italian bikes I am working on, for the time being I have been hanging on to them but that is starting to change due to lack of space and not using then enough. I guess keeping the old bikes is toy collecting and I never intended that to be the case.

I am going to let go of either my V7 Sport or 750S this summer, any takers?
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Arizona Wayne on June 24, 2017, 12:29:07 AM
Well Canuck 750, I'm a little bit like you, in that when I buy another bike (or scooter) it's to keep a long time, not replace in a year or 2 like some. When I buy another rig new or used (mostly) it's to meet another need I find I have for a different way of enjoying MC riding.  I don't buy any rig hoping to break even on it's cost.  Instead I buy a rig to meet my perceived personal needs at the time.  Then I get so attached to them I find it hard to get rid of them.  :huh:
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: JJ on June 24, 2017, 08:03:09 AM
Posted on facebook...the new "Ducati-Davidson!"  :laugh: :grin: :wink: :rolleyes: :shocked: :huh:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/hJNGQ5/Screen_Shot_2017_06_24_at_6_01_06_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/hJNGQ5)
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: tazio on June 24, 2017, 10:11:47 AM
Another stroke of LOST marketing/name recognition for Guzzi. (i.e. ~what the hell's a gootsie?)
All Moto-Guzzi(Piaggio) had to do was put it out there that THEY ALSO are bidding for Ducati.
EVERYONE would have been scrambling to learn about this unknown upstart.

Just a thought I had. 
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on June 24, 2017, 11:20:58 AM
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hJNGQ5/Screen_Shot_2017_06_24_at_6_01_06_AM.png)
 :thumb: I like it.  :smiley: Pretty creative.
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Unkept on June 24, 2017, 11:23:25 AM
(http://thumb.ibb.co/hJNGQ5/Screen_Shot_2017_06_24_at_6_01_06_AM.png)
 :thumb: I like it.  :smiley: Pretty creative.

And to be fair... it *is* an improvement over your current Harley lineup.  :grin:  :evil:
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Shorty on June 24, 2017, 11:56:35 AM
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5e/1a/71/5e1a7122b0f49a3b35a51a5384f2e538.jpg)
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: TOMB on June 24, 2017, 06:57:36 PM
So Harley will take an Ducati  engine with minimal to no vibration and reengineer it to vibrate/shake to fit the corporate image?
TOMB
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on June 24, 2017, 07:26:28 PM
Well, need I say it makes no sense to me? Maybe they learned something with the MV debacle? Funnel some money, leave them alone, and skim some profits? That might work. Harley putting their "brand" on Ducati, or expecting sport bike people to be in the least interested in Harley is just not a tenable position. <shrug>
Of course.. they didn't ask me.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Harley may buy Ducati threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on June 24, 2017, 09:56:06 PM
 Maybe HD just wants the Ducat Flat Track engine .

 Dusty