Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: k99 on June 05, 2017, 09:27:14 AM
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An interesting article was posted in CycleWorld today.
http://www.cycleworld.com/aprilia-caponord-and-moto-guzzi-stelvio-major-casualties-euro-4 (http://www.cycleworld.com/aprilia-caponord-and-moto-guzzi-stelvio-major-casualties-euro-4)
The author discusses with Piaggio executive Davide Zanolini the cancellation of the Caponord and Stelvio due to Euro 4 restrictions. Zanolini gave some vague yet interesting hints at what's to come.
As with Aprilia, radically new Moto Guzzi models might appear as early as EICMA 2017, and the big novelties will debut at EICMA 2018.
At Moto Guzzi they are hard at work on a totally new engine, very advanced, a radical evolution compared to the present V7, V9 and V1400 units. It is due to complete this range of units and I will not say more at this date. We expect to be able to introduce some radical Moto Guzzi novelty at EICMA 2017, though at its concept stage.
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Wow....that does sound interesting.
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I don't know - maybe I should apply for his job....
the Exec VP states: "Cycle World: Mr. Zanolini, how well did the Moto Guzzi Stelvio and the Aprilia CapoNord sell during their respective lives?
Davide Zanolini: Stelvio had two separate editions, the first in production from 2008 to 2011, powered by the two-valve Moto Guzzi 1200cc, then in 2011 evolving into a four-valve. In total Stelvio sold about 7,000 units. In comparison the short lived Aprilia CapoNord 1200 sold better, totaling about 5,000 from 2013 to 2016."
seems that he should know his products better, but then he probably is busy with the new standards....and counting valves.
Mark
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"BMW’s veteran R1200GS dominates the highly competitive maxi-enduro market, with strong competition from KTM’s Adventure and Duke, and from Triumph’s Tigers. Both makes invested substantially to win their parts of this market. Piaggio does not currently see an opportunity in such investment."
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I find it interesting how they overlook the 1000 Stelvio built from 2004 till the new 1200 is not included.
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I find it interesting how they overlook the 1000 Stelvio built from 2004 till the new 1200 is not included.
Ah, yes, the one that didn't exist. It predated the 1200 2V Stelvio that also didn't exist!
I think it quite pitiful that this useless suit is not only so ignorant of his company's products but also so utterly cavalier about the custodianship of the once great Guzzi name.
This sort of guff just slams another nail in the lid of the coffin of my disinterest in anything to do with Piaggio. What a bunch of soulless bastards! :violent1:
Pete
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I don't want motoguzzi novelties i want a bike that looks as good as the bonnerville 1200 and performs as well with no annoying built in hassles, ie intermittent starting syndrome, is that to much to ask?.
John
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I think it quite pitiful that this useless suit is not only so ignorant of his company's products but also so utterly cavalier about the custodianship of the once great Guzzi name.
plus one brazillion.. :evil:
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I think it quite pitiful that this useless suit is not only so ignorant of his company's products but also so utterly cavalier about the custodianship of the once great Guzzi name.
This sort of guff just slams another nail in the lid of the coffin of my disinterest in anything to do with Piaggio. What a bunch of soulless bastards! :violent1:
Pete
Some people figured this out quite a while ago, say 2004, based on Piaggio's 1969-2003 custodianship of Gilera. You can't change a leopard's spots. Others took longer. Aprilia was a scooter company that didn't know how to deal with Guzzi, Piaggio is a scooter company that doesn't share Moto Guzzi values. There's a difference but it was regardless a slippery slope.
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Moto Guzzi: Making "Limited Edition" Motorcycles since 1921! :evil: :wink:
Seriously, too bad about the demise of these great models. (Just another reason to hate environmental "non-science" and big government intrusion in more and more arenas of life.)
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Moto Guzzi: Making "Limited Edition" Motorcycles since 1921! :evil: :wink:
Seriously, too bad about the demise of these great models. (Just another reason to hate environmental "non-science" and big government intrusion in more and more arenas of life.)
????
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????
As in, they don't make many of ANY model, compared to large brands. To have them killed off by bureaucrats forcing unrealistic and most likely unnecessary emissions requirements hurts all the more.
It's bad enough that lackluster sales and lousy company support of dealers hampers the brand already...
YMMV :undecided:
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Looking forward to the new Guzzis. I don't see a downside. They are talking about replacing the 1200 8v with something new and presumably better. This hints at new and sportier bikes. Perhaps the new LeMans and Stelvio?
It sounds Bigly. Tremendous.
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Looking forward to the new Guzzis. I don't see a downside. They are talking about replacing the 1200 8v with something new and presumably better. This hints at new and sportier bikes. Perhaps the new LeMans and Stelvio?
It sounds Bigly. Tremendous.
I'll be sure to hold my breath. :smiley: I've heard rumors of the "New LeMans" for years..
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According to the talking heads, it is always 'newer and better'
Of my 5 Guzzis, the '85 Cal II has been my most stalwart companion.
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I'll be sure to hold my breath. :smiley: I've heard rumors of the "New LeMans" for years..
I would be shocked if we ever see a new LeMans while Piaggio is running the company.
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"BMW’s veteran R1200GS dominates the highly competitive maxi-enduro market, with strong competition from KTM’s Adventure and Duke, and from Triumph’s Tigers. Both makes invested substantially to win their parts of this market. Piaggio does not currently see an opportunity in such investment."
This is why there will not be a new Stelvio, even a "baby Stelvio". MG doesn't see an opportunity in this market segment. MG will focus on retro V7's and V9"s and cruisers. It won't compete in the ADV market and it won't compete in the sport market.
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Looking forward to the new Guzzis. I don't see a downside. They are talking about replacing the 1200 8v with something new and presumably better. This hints at new and sportier bikes. Perhaps the new LeMans and Stelvio?
It sounds Bigly. Tremendous.
I agree, and am cautiously optimistic about what is apparently in the pipeline (Since my Cali is my first Guzzi, maybe I'm not as primed for disappointment as some of you old timers). There is a conspicuous gap in the current lineup between the small block middleweights and the California cruisers, so this will be interesting.
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In total Stelvio sold about 7,000 units.
Selling 800 units a year is a hobby not a business.
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Selling 800 units a year is a hobby not a business.
Ouch. Sad, but oh too true... :cry:
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Selling 800 units a year is a hobby not a business.
Then they did 0.05% of their Stelvio business since 2012 with me! Does that make me a "Key Account"? [emoji3]
I'm not so pessimistic. Like I've said before, I reckon there'll be something interesting and water-cooled at the EICMA this year. There has to be!
And if not, well I've got a new Stelvio [emoji1]
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Some people figured this out quite a while ago, say 2004, based on Piaggio's 1969-2003 custodianship of Gilera. You can't change a leopard's spots. Others took longer. Aprilia was a scooter company that didn't know how to deal with Guzzi, Piaggio is a scooter company that doesn't share Moto Guzzi values. There's a difference but it was regardless a slippery slope.
From 2008/9 through to 2016 they had a full range of truly *Modern* world competitive motorbikes in the Griso, Stelvio, Norge, Sport and Bellagio. They were under promoted and advertised and their great virtues of reliability and easy maintenance were hidden under a bushel. Piaggio then kill them, they say, because of emissions to which I say 'Horseshit!'.
If they were honest they'd say that the main reasons were low sales, (See above!) and the fact that with Marzocchi no longer making forks finding a different front end for most of their range was going to be a chore. Also all the designs were getting a bit long in the tooth.
As it is though Guzzi has been condemned to building smallblocks and the Calis and I'm sorry but I think they're garbage. Horrid, overweight, evil handling, under-suspended shopping trolleys. The antithesis of what Guzzi once was.
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Quit sugar coating it, Pete..
I agree
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well anyway, he's promising something new. And should have a hint at EICMA and bikes in '18.
The discussion was against the Stelvio and Griso. If it's another V9 or 1400 Cali variant it wouldn't be a new powerplant. So you can see the 100ml beaker at 99 or 1.
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A new engine could be anything from an 8 valve small block to a water cooled 900cc 140HP monster with double overhead chrome plated donut makers and twin reversible fox tail injectors. Or it might just mean they're painting the blocks a different shade of black.
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A new engine could be anything from an 8 valve small block to a water cooled 900cc 140HP monster with double overhead chrome plated donut makers and twin reversible fox tail injectors. Or it might just mean they're painting the blocks a different shade of black.
You've filled and drained that beaker many times.
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You've filled and drained that beaker many times.
The beaker and I exist in separate frames of reference.
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I usually look at the glass half empty but lets take a realistic look. My cali 1400 is my first Guzzi and so I'm a newby and this bike has had some issues but there is nothing like it out there. Moto Guzzi has been saved several times and now it's by Piaggio. I think we should all be thankful the brand is even still around. If Guzzi was an American company it would have been gone long ago. Look at Victory, probably sold 50 times more bikes each year than Guzzi and axed. I say lets hope for more and better bikes.
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That's a good point, Bud..
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From 2008/9 through to 2016 they had a full range of truly *Modern* world competitive motorbikes in the Griso, Stelvio, Norge, Sport and Bellagio.
As it is though Guzzi has been condemned to building smallblocks and I'm sorry but I think they're garbage. Horrid, overweight, evil handling, under-suspended shopping trolleys. The antithesis of what Guzzi once was.
I didn't think the B750 was THAT overweight..... :grin: (or have I chopped a couple of words out) :evil:
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Look at Victory, probably sold 50 times more bikes each year than Guzzi and axed. I say lets hope for more and better bikes.
Actually, they sold about like Guzzi.
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The whole Euro 4 thing may be a red herring excuse for Guzzi to cut models or it may be the new regulatory environment creating additional costs that a small manufacturer can no longer absorb in its efforts to survive.
Whatever MG continues to produce, I hope they improve their quality control and reduce the BS that an owner has to endure to keep the machines on the road.
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/january/mcn-plus---emissions-impossible-what-euro-4-really-means/
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So they're not going forward with an updated Stelvio. The ADV market being about the hottest in motorcycling. Cool.
Gee, I really hope they pour some more money into developing retro standards and trend humping hipster cruisers. That'd be awesome.
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From 2008/9 through to 2016 they had a full range of truly *Modern* world competitive motorbikes in the Griso, Stelvio, Norge, Sport and Bellagio. They were under promoted and advertised and their great virtues of reliability and easy maintenance were hidden under a bushel. Piaggio then kill them, they say, because of emissions to which I say 'Horseshit!'.
If they were honest they'd say that the main reasons were low sales, (See above!) and the fact that with Marzocchi no longer making forks finding a different front end for most of their range was going to be a chore. Also all the designs were getting a bit long in the tooth.
As it is though Guzzi has been condemned to building smallblocks and the Calis and I'm sorry but I think they're garbage. Horrid, overweight, evil handling, under-suspended shopping trolleys. The antithesis of what Guzzi once was.
In my part of the world the reason for poor sales was lack of dealerships, poor support from the few that existed, and lack of interest and support from Mandello. The nearest partial component technician/ dealer was over 600 miles from my home. For major issue I would ride or trailer my '09 1200 Sport over 1500 miles to Huston and have Mike Haven perform is magic.
No matter how great the product if ya can't support it you're not going to sell it.
Paul
Paul
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The beaker and I exist in separate frames of reference.
zen
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My prediction, based on nothing:
Keep going with the 1400 cali line to cover your large crusier, touring rigs
V9 and V7 line for retro and starter bikes
Standards sell OK and is a benchmark for Ducati, so a Griso replacement make sense. Too bad it won't be single sided CARC. Not sure the 1400 would look good in a naked with the current form.
ADV bikes are hot, but the very good Stelvio didn't compete in sales. The Norge was even worse in a sport touring market that is VERY soft market-wide.
Not sure what else is left outside of a Griso replacement.
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Not sure what else is left outside of a Griso replacement.
Why, a 1200cc "mid-size" FF Cruiser, of course... :violent1:
Something to compete with the Scout and Sportster.
Kill me now.
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:grin: :grin:
Ya know.. you might be right.
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About time! I wish they think of a improved way to strap a rubber chicken on our bikes.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic006/chicken%20on%20guzzi_zps1lxacaog.jpg)
:wink:
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It makes little sense to go after the big Adventure market. BMW has it locked down. The Stelvio was competitive with the GS during the first few years on the market, but it just didn't sell in numbers that it should. Sure, some of that is certainly a lack of marketing and poor dealer support, but that has been the case of Guzzi for as long as I can remember. Around here, Jim Baron told me he could hardly move any Stelvio, because almost every guy who could afford one, wanted a GS, it didn't matter that the Stelvio was thousands less, it is about image. They new about the Stelvio, but they bought a GS.
I think the big adv bike market is a niche market that is well served, and has very little room for growth, in fact its almost certainly beginning to wane now.
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The ADV market being about the hottest in motorcycling. Cool.
Hottest?
Not by total sales.
Not by a long shot.
Maybe it's the market with the most growth potential - that is EXCEPT attempting to take away shares of the 50% plus of the US market that Harley holds, and that doesn't count the additional percentage of the total market that Harley's competitors hold which includes Triumphs cruisers and arguably neo-classics, Indian, a not insignificant portion of JAPanIncs. sales, and most of what Guzzi has been selling for a few years now.
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Interesting interview by Sir Alan Carthcart with Steve Meneto of Polaris.
One of the two big reasons victory got the axe was the cost of EURO 4 and 5 for the Vic air cooled motors.
In the new MSL from the UK for the entire story.
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Piaggio will not build a bike that appeals to us old Guzzi guys. Nor should they. They need younger more affluent buyers.
Rather you like it or not should mean little to Piaggio. Likely you are gonna be dead, or give up riding, before this model cycle is obsolete.
Mike
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By the way, I have seen an official notice from Moto Guzzi that the Stelvio and the Griso models are being discontinued.
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Likely you are gonna be dead, or give up riding, before this model cycle is obsolete.
we're old, but not that damned old!
Guzzi will probably have gone through several "model cycles" and a couple more "owners" by the time I'm pushing up daisies.
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Hottest?
Not by total sales.
Not by a long shot.
Maybe it's the market with the most growth potential - that is EXCEPT attempting to take away shares of the 50% plus of the US market that Harley holds, and that doesn't count the additional percentage of the total market that Harley's competitors hold which includes Triumphs cruisers and arguably neo-classics, Indian, a not insignificant portion of JAPanIncs. sales, and most of what Guzzi has been selling for a few years now.
In the uk the GS apparently is the best selling bike > 125 cc
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2017/june/gallery-adventure-bike-test/
And in germany as well
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In the uk the GS apparently is the best selling bike > 125 cc
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2017/june/gallery-adventure-bike-test/
And in germany as well
But I believe those numbers are absolutely dwarfed by the US market.
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(Referring to Victory sales)
Actually, they sold about like Guzzi.
Not at the dealership I worked at - as a salesman. We sold about 3 to 5 Victory bikes for every Guzzi, and we were good at selling both.
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Another reason I have not bought a NEW Guzzi, though I have ridden the V7, V9 and the 1400.
Too any gee wiz stuff.
Am looking at adding another California1100 to the Gaggle.
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My personal observation, I have seen quite a few new victories and hardly any new Gussie on the suburban roads around Chicago. My guess is that victory likely sold three times as many bikes as M G.
Thank goodness MG is owned by an Italian company if it were American it would be dead on arrival.
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I'm very cautiously optimistic about what's coming. Not that I'm going to be in the market but I'd like to see Guzzi continue in the roadster market
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Moto Guzzi will probably have to limit production to what sells or has been selling recently
They are to small to hold stale inventory. Dealer presence is going to determine their future.
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My personal observation, I have seen quite a few new victories and hardly any new Gussie on the suburban roads around Chicago. My guess is that victory likely sold three times as many bikes as M G.
Thank goodness MG is owned by an Italian company if it were American it would be dead on arrival.
Yeah, I see a *lot* more Victorys here than Guzzis.. I can't imagine sales are even close to equal.
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10% of Guzzis are sold in The USA.
90 - something % of Victories were sold in The USA.
Guess it depends upon "world" or "USA" numbers in the discussion.
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Not at the dealership I worked at - as a salesman. We sold about 3 to 5 Victory bikes for every Guzzi, and we were good at selling both.
I was referring to total worldwide production/sales.
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But I believe those numbers are absolutely dwarfed by the US market.
Possible. Here are the numbers for Germany from 2016: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/154306/umfrage/neuzulassungen-von-motorraedern-in-deutschland-nach-modellen/ . The R1200 GS alone has about a quarter of the German market.
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Possible. Here are the numbers for Germany from 2016: https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/154306/umfrage/neuzulassungen-von-motorraedern-in-deutschland-nach-modellen/ . The R1200 GS alone has about a quarter of the German market.
That's not working without a log in.
That said last I checked BMW sold about half or less worldwide of what Harley sells each year. And only a fraction of that are "adventure tours".
Harley sells 50% of the US market, though only a fraction of the world.
But in the US Harley isn't alone in the category with products from JAPanInc., Triumph, Guzzi, and others adding to the numbers.
My point is and was simply that "adventure touring" bikes are not the "majority'.
If we really want to look at the numbers I suspect that if you include Asia that neither "cruisers" or "adventure tourers" really make up the bulk of yearly sales, but I think that's another conversation.
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They need younger more affluent buyers.
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Bingo! No truer words have every been written.
It's past time to inject a new round of Guzzi riders into the fold. Go to any campout/rally and look around. You might get lucky and see one or two 20-30ish year olds (8 times out of 10 they are related to a Guzzi rider and that's how they know about the brand). Youth...That's the market that Guzzi needs to appeal to now. It wasn't that long ago that the Centauro was labeled a hideous piece of crap by Guzzi veterans, only now to be highly sought after by said veterans.
I predict they'll keep the 1400 variant in maybe 2 forms with vintage lines for the veterans, but introduce a new, powerful, water cooled, technologically fulfilling 1200cc cruiser to compete with the entry level HD/Indians to appeal to the rookies.
But then again, I could be way off.
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Bingo! No truer words have every been written.
I predict they'll keep the 1400 variant in maybe 2 forms with vintage lines for the veterans, but introduce a new, powerful, water cooled, technologically fulfilling 1200cc cruiser to compete with the entry level HD/Indians to appeal to the rookies.
But then again, I could be way off.
This would be a good time to fulfill the promise made back in 2014 or so, when they teased a water-cooled 1300cc that was drawn up in cooperation with the Aprilia engineers. If I recall the discussion at the time, the target was Euro 4 and beyond, 130 HP, a hefty dollop of torque, and maintaining the Guzzi appearance with modern design. Such a design would be a very competitive base when measured against the competition in this space, such as the powerplants in the Yamaha FJR and the revamped R1200. It wouldn't go against the supersports, but that's Aprilia's job.
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This would be a good time to fulfill the promise made back in 2014 or so, when they teased a water-cooled 1300cc that was drawn up in cooperation with the Aprilia engineers. If I recall the discussion at the time, the target was Euro 4 and beyond, 130 HP, a hefty dollop of torque, and maintaining the Guzzi appearance with modern design. Such a design would be a very competitive base when measured against the competition in this space, such as the powerplants in the Yamaha FJR and the revamped R1200. It wouldn't go against the supersports, but that's Aprilia's job.
An engine like that would likely be put in a chassis that would offer a direct competition to the Indian Scout and other 1100cc-1300cc liquid-cooled Krewzerz.
Moto Guzzi won't be having any FJR fighter under current ownership...
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This would be a good time to fulfill the promise made back in 2014 or so, when they teased a water-cooled 1300cc that was drawn up in cooperation with the Aprilia engineers.
Moto Guzzi is today a brand and an assembly plant. Piaggio is the company and does engine development in two facilities, neither of which is anywhere near the Guzzi assembly plant.
Re the CARC Guzzis - they were introduced in 2005, having been conceived by Aprilia during their period of ownership, prior to Piaggio, and reflected their strategy to copy BMW almost model by model with new models to do so. The same push to develop lots of new designs across the Aprilia line, and do it often, eventually put Aprilia out of business. Even after Piaggio took over there was limited money to invest in ongoing R&D, so the bikes fell further and further behind BMW as time went on. The one exception to this was the Griso, a re-do of the Centauro which BMW copied with the R9T, demonstrating that BMW doesn't have a lot of direction in new product development either. The BMW GS is a endless rehash of a good 1980s idea that they keep going with lots of investment.
BTW, last time I checked, Honda makes about 100 times more bikes every year (literally) than BMW, mostly lightweights. The European manufacturers sell to a niche market with limited money for investment in new products. The reason Guzzi is moving into 'lifestyle' bikes is simple - they're cheap to develop and produce.
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but introduce a new, powerful, water cooled, technologically fulfilling 1200cc cruiser to compete with the entry level HD/Indians to appeal to the rookies.
Please let it not be another ill handling overweight under braked !@#$box cruiser, there is enough of them already especially from Guzzi.
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Meanwhile back in Kansas, I love my V9 Roamer.
Ride what ya got and enjoy or get another.
That is all.
inditx
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Good point; we could all be dead tomorrow, ride what you got while you still can!!!