Author Topic: diagnostic no key on  (Read 609 times)

Offline gbritton

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diagnostic no key on
« on: January 24, 2022, 02:55:36 PM »
      Usually can solve my problems by reading about yours.  Have a 2001 California Special with  the will not start condition, that might be related to fuel pump and (crank or cam?) sensor I believe.  Found corrosion in relay holders.  Cleaned and put a new set of recommended relays in along with attention to fuses.  Fuel pump replaced last year.  Also think I found all the related grounds and made sure they look good.  Gas tank would pressurize along with all lights indicating power on, but it doesn't seem to be sending gas to cylinders after that.  Crank but no start.  Went from bad to worse.  If played with kick stand and or kill switch 2 or 3 times, lights come on, but now no power to turn motor or pressure up.  Pulling the battery to avoid damage while I did extra cleaning, continuity and voltage checks, I discovered it would do a reset and come back to life with battery back in.  Recreated both situations multiple times removing battery and putting back after a few minutes.  Got the diagnostics onto my latest computer.  I also struggled with windows 10 drivers, but finally success in getting usb com port  recognized.  I was so happy...  for a minute.  The next step, key on,  isn't recognized and will time out with the count down.  I live in a cold climate this time of year so not urgent, but looking for ideas, to get started when it does warm up.  Suspicious of ECM, but most agree they are pretty tuff to destroy.  It's possible I damaged a relay holder.  Voltage and continuity seem ok, but I know 2 involved are connected and may react to each other, so I'm not 100% sure.  Also see a safety diode in the wiring diagram I've never seen anybody talk about.  The hard plastic piece doesn't appear to open up to change or reset.   I apologize in advance for not running right out and trying your recommendations and letting you know if you are right on.  Bunch of clues for you.  Could be multiple problems. I'm not against new used wiring harness and/or brain and parts, but would love to get the diagnostics going first. Maybe not possible if those are the root of  the power problem.  Thank you for help, Glenn

Offline yogidozer

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Re: diagnostic no key on
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2022, 03:06:58 PM »
CALLING KIWI_ROY.....CALLIN G KIWI_ROY....
COME IN PLEASE  :grin:

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: diagnostic no key on
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2022, 03:25:31 PM »
1st-----------Unplug the sidestand switch. Follow wires up front down tube, may be behind chrome cover on front side of tank.
If pump don't work check relays for power.
2nd----------Check spark---------pull plug & ground against head while cranking. NO Spark check sensor.
ETC-------------------------------
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: diagnostic no key on
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2022, 04:29:45 PM »
First of all, here's a schematic, it may not be exactly right for your model but will be close. Sometimes the interlocks before the petcock fuse are arranged differently.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2002_Stone.gif
You need to establish if you have a permissive to run signal, measure the Voltage at the petcock fuse, should be a steady 12 Volts. A small lamp connected between the fuse and chassis is a good way of measuring this signal.it will flicker if the signal is a bit flaky.
Its very common to lose the signal from the side-stand switch or have an intermittent signal which really upsets the ECU.
Check to make sure the battery is in the correct way around, if its in backwards it may still crank but you will get no fuel pump priming the safety diode is there to protect the ECU from this eventuality.

Once you are sure the pump primes each and every time you turn the key On you need to establish that the crank position or timing sensor (56) is working.
When the ECU sees pulses coming from the sensor it energizes the power relay (50) to power up the pump, coils and injectors so a small lamp attached to the 87 contact will give you a visual clue that its working. If you can't find a point on the loom to connect the lamp unplug the relay and wrap a small wire around the 87 pin, remember it will only close while the engine is rotating, running or cranking.

The timing sensor is just a coil of fine wire wound over a tiny magnet, you can check that the winding is ok by measuring the coil, 680 Ohms I think.
The sensor gap is also important 0.6 - 1.2mm sometimes an owner will add a gasket to fix the oil leak and upset the gap.
I check the gap by sticking a small blob of quick setting epoxy to the tip of the sensor, screw it back in then once its had time to set take it out again to measure.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 04:14:39 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: diagnostic no key on
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2022, 04:29:45 PM »

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: diagnostic no key on
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2022, 05:30:03 PM »
+1------------Roy to the rescue.
"Pray through Carlo & your bike shall be healed"
Location: Planet Earth

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: diagnostic no key on
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2022, 03:52:01 AM »
I don't think the Guzzidiag software will do you much good at this stage, its probably a more basic problem.
I have also attached a partial picture of the schematic I call the Brain, see how you can draw a line right around the ECU and all the components it works with, its all connected together with a Sub loop attached at the two one way connectors. The critical signal for the brain is the wire coming from the kill switch through the stand relay where it branches one way to the start relay and the other to the petcock fuse the 2000 era bikes like Jackal, Bassa, VII Sport and Stone/California Srecial are all very similar. You can of course jumper across the interlocks to the petcock for troubleshooting.
There are slight variations but once the signal gets to the Petcock fuse its the same going forward, So as I said if you have a small 12 Volt lamp connected there its worth its weight in gold. I took the liberty of sketching the two lights I mentioned on the drawing.

This schematic shows the same wire going down to feed the Start Relay coil so the signal needs to be good for the bike to crank over the only thing is relays are not as fussy as the ECU and on some models the start relay is fed differently.
Fuel Pump Running
The pump will run for a couple of seconds each time the ECU gets powered up, this is strictly a timing function, it primes the pump then sits waiting for pulses from the rotation sensor (56) which also triggers ignition and injectors, they never fire until the engine is rotating.
Relay Bases
Occasionally one of the connectors will come unclipped and push out the back perhaps just resting on the relay pin, you can check each one with a sliver of metal similar in dimension to the relay pin. The sockets can usually be removed and tightened if they are loose.
Sensor Oil Leak
Some of us have come to the conclusion that the oil doesn't leak around the sensor but it actually leaks right through it entering at the metal tip and exiting where the cable exits
Some owners have tried sealing around the tip with silicon.
Stand Relay
Sometimes the stand relay uses 30 - 37 Normally Open contact other times it uses 30 - 37A Normally Closed, you can tell by looking into the base to see which spots are occupied but anyway you need the signal to get as far as the petcock fuse F1 in this case. I have sometimes wrapped a bare wire around the 2 pins or stuffed a wire into the socket to jumper out a bad stand switch
Do you have a schematic that came with the bike you can send?, I will send you a PM

BTW I see by your posts you are fairly new here, welcome to the madhouse
It might pay to add your location to your profile, there's bound to be another member close by to lend a hand.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 05:19:11 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline tris

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Re: diagnostic no key on
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2022, 05:34:32 AM »
Everything Roy says plus I'd suggest the following

As you found corrosion in the relay holders it might be worth checking the other hardware for corrosion/correct function, i.e.
  • Un plug the ignition switch and make sure that you get continuity where you should when you turn it on
  • Same for side stand, clutch switch, kill switch plus anything I haven't thought of
  • Read the manual and check for the correct resistances across the various sensors & other devices like injectors
  • If none of the above works I'd consider unplugging the ECU and checking for corrosion on the ECU/plug and continuity from ECU plug to wherever on the bike.
    BE CAREFUL though as "Here be Daemons" that will land you in a world of pain if you bend a pin - Been there and done that, but got away with it

Good Luck
Tris

PS walk away from it and have a brew (Tea where I am but might be different elsewhere in the world), every time you get frustrated!
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1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now sold
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Offline gbritton

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Re: diagnostic no key on
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2022, 08:05:26 AM »
Thank you everyone.  Kiwi Roy, I'm using the this old tractor site for the schematic, it's seems to be a pretty close match and easy to expand and move around.  Some ideas have already been explored.  Now I have plenty to study and try.  I live in the Adirondacks, Northern NY.  One part of me would love to find a knowledgeable nearby dealer or mechanic.  However I would be slightly embarrassed to let them see some customization and rewiring. I do have a great BMW friend.  But even being that good, this is going to take a little more time to sort out than I feel comfortable asking him to give up the labor rate on other work for.  He'll refuse to let me pay what he's worth.  I like to learn and have the tools and the time.  And the good news....I have a 81 V1000 G5 just waiting for spring, along with a beat up 1979 CX100 Lemans that just refuses to quit, even when I don't deserve it.  Thanks again !

Online Wayne Orwig

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Re: diagnostic no key on
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2022, 08:18:55 AM »
Also keep in mind the the ignition switches on those is not the most reliable thing. It may need cleaned or replaced.

If it has had dielectric grease slathered on things, you are in for a lot of cleaning and parts replacing.




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