Cal 2 wiring help needed, basic stuff

[brider]

I say basic because I haven't done any mods to the system, it's a basic Tonti system, but I'm not getting any power to the solenoid of the starter.

Other observation: The Battery light on the dash doesn't come on anymore.

This bike has been down for over a year, and in that time I've dis-connected every plug on the thing (except inside the instrument console and to the rectifier, and starter relay). I DID also disconnect the tach in an attempt to swap it for a working one, which I abandoned. In that process, I pulled the (3) plugs directly under the console; 2 BIG ones and 1 narrow 4-post plug.

All connections were pulled apart to clean them. All connections were plugged back together as they came apart.

Turn on the key, oil light comes on, BATT light does not, hit the starter button and the relay beneath the rectifier clicks, but no power goes to the starter solenoid. Big + feed to the starter motor from the battery is good. Conclusion: No power TO the starter relay where the power-thru circuit is (sorry, don't know the post #'s).

Using this diagram, http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1981_California_II.gif, I see that power SHOULD come into the starter relay (42) from the fuse #6 (40), but A) This fuse is not identified in the listing on the top/right of the diagram, B) Fuse #5 is identified in the listing as going to the relay, but on the diagram it goes to the high-beam relay, C) my actual fuse box has wires going in all the fuses on the rear side, but NO wires coming out on the top 2 fuses on the forward (FWD) side.

So I'm stumped as to where the power to the relay comes from on the actual fuse panel, and I won't be able to tell which posts on the relay come from the fuse/go to the relay until I remove the battery to get to the bolt that holds the actuator pivot to pull the friggin' rear master cyl off. 

Another observation: Power goes to 1 side of the starter switch with the key on; when I hit the button, my circuit-tester light on this post goes out.....wait a minute....just went back to the garage to check THAT, and now there's no power to the starter switch. After I spent an hour hitting that switch and listening to the relay click. WHAT IS UP WITH THAT?

My fear is the BATT switch in the dash that won't come on has something to do with the no-power to the starter relay. The fact that there is suddenly no power to the starter switch also maddens me, but I think that's more easily figured out, or I can run a jumper to it from the battery (temporarily).

It sure sounds like one of the wires I dis-connected didn't re-connect properly, but my gut tells me something else is up. I have never delved into the fuse panel/rectifier installation on this bike, and I fear a hidden monster there. PO'd because "..it ran fine when I parked it".

Anyone care to comment?

Edit: ANyone know what that silver, large, old-school-looking box/relay is mounted under the seat, mounted to a frame cross-rail above the coils and almost resting on the fender?

[fotoguzzi]

It's a good fully charged battery right? It's not the kill switch . Does it have a clutch switch in line down by the footboard?
Could you have missed connecting a second wire to a battery post? you've checked that ...and no extra wires dangling anywhere?  Did you disturb anything when you took out the brake m/c?

[wirespokes]

After checking through the wiring diagram, I think I've figured out what the problem is.

Take a look at connector 23. There's a black wire going to ground.

If that black wire isn't grounded, the charge light won't come on. Not surprisingly, as well, the starter switch is grounded through that same place. The starter button doesn't activate the starter relay by giving it 12 volts, it provides a path to ground for the electricity already there.

Since that is a common terminal to both issues, I'm pretty certain your problem is close by. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

I thought you had the starter relay clicking at one point.

The starter solenoid on the old Bosch starter will draw up to 50 Amps so you need to have a good secure circuit to supply that, I'm pretty sure if you put a Voltmeter or test light on the start Relay it will read 12 volts but when you press start it will drop right off because you have a bad connection somewhere.

Start by reading the brown wire at the top of the start relay, does it give you 12 Volts there?
          What happens when you press Start
Next try the common Brown wire feeding the 3 top fuses, do you get 12 Volts there?
   Again what happens to the 12 V when you press Start
It's possibly the ignition switch
Or the wires around the headstock broken under the insulation from constant bending, you can find breaks by really pulling hard on the wires one at a time, a broken wire will stretch and snap.
The fuse holders on those old girls is not something to write home about, they can lose their tension and drop Voltage, it was suggested to me that stretching an "O" ring around the clips is a good way to apply more tension. I suggest you pull that apart and polish up all the contact points then smear them with Vaseline

I had a California II, they are a great old bike.

[guzzisteve]

My 86 Cali 2 got a new harness, all of it 3yrs ago. New switches, coils are Dyna greens from my LM3. IT all works perfect now with a new fuse box too, it was a solid blue w/corrosion on the back. I road mine though 24/7 through all winter salt in IL so it needed it. Alt wires got new also, same w/diode board & regulator. I'm all ready to go another 130K.
Sometimes you have to refresh and restore if you are going to keep riding it forever.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Sometimes you have to refresh and restore if you are going to keep riding it forever.

Wat Guzzi Steve sez. Guzzis are so robust mechanically that a monkey can keep one running.  The electrical system? Not so much. Whenever I get a new to me Guzzi, I completely go through the electrical system, clean and restore as necessary. These things are 30-50 years old now.. with non sealed electrical connectors.
Some times, as Steve mentions.. there is nothing you can do except replace. I had an SP1000 like that.

[brider]

Thanks, guys, I am going to print out these responses and investigate as directed.

Where might a guy get a new harness?

Yes, I looked and stared at everything to try to determine if I missed a wire that should've been attached to the battery, and there's nothing hanging, EXCEPT......

There is a female blade connection that is dangling underneath the rectifier that I'm positive has been dangling for years, un-used. I will check this out fer-sher this time.

The ground issue Wirespokes discussed is encouraging...and the fact that my tester light at the power "in" post of my starter button goes out when I hit the button....how does that happen?

[Kiwi_Roy]

The ground issue Wirespokes discussed is encouraging...and the fact that my tester light at the power "in" post of my starter button goes out when I hit the button....how does that happen?

If you look at the relay one contact and one side of the coil get 12 Volts via the Brown wire from fuse F6, the 12 Volts passes through the relay coil to feed 12 Volts to the start button, when you press Start that causes the relay to draw about 0.1 to 0.15 Amps turning the relay On.
Your test light doesn't pull enough current to ground it out but it measures the Voltage, when you push the button it's grounded out so the light goes out.

The starter solenoid on the other hand will draw about 50 Amps for a split second then settle down to 10 Amps, it needs a really robust circuit to feed it.
If you place your light on the brown wire at the top of the relay it should stay bright when the relay closes. I am guessing it goes dim as you lose Voltage through a bad connection.

You might wonder why the starter solenoid draws 50 then 10 Amps, this is because Guzzi never show it correctly, there are two coils in the solenoid, I call one the Grunt Coil because it does the Lions share of the work pulling the solenoid into place drawing 40 Amps and the Holding Coil that just holds the contacts in place (this is the one shown on the drawing)

The Relay takes a weak signal from the start button and relays it to the strong signal to the solenoid, you could do it in one step but the start button would need to be 10 times the size wired with No 8 wire or bigger, back in the 30s some cars had a large foot activated start button.

[wirespokes]

Good point about the relay clicking. That would indicate it's getting activated.

It's possible the charge light problem is related to that ground and the starter is something else.

You can always troubleshoot by bypassing components. Since we know the starter relay is activated by grounding, bypass the starter switch by grounding the relay. If the starter doesn't spin, apply 12V at the starter solenoid - the small spade terminal. If the starter doesn't spin now, there something wrong with the starter or power to it.

[Kiwi_Roy]

........ apply 12V at the starter solenoid - the small spade terminal. If the starter doesn't spin now, there something wrong with the starter or power to it.

Without an overhaul thats the absolute best the starter will ever operate, it's got 12 Volts right to the solenoid, it will draw 50+ Amps and throw the starter into mesh
Every thing you add to the circuit now will be a compromise adding resistance. dropping Voltage.
The relay doesn't add too much but those old pointy fuses add quite a bit, go over them especially F6. polish up the fuse ends and make sure the spring tension is tight, the jumpers between fuses are sometimes loose also.
Remove the ignition switch and inspect the contacts, wipe out the old hard grease and replace it with fresh Vaseline you will be surprised the difference it makes.

You may have heard about the status interrupts fix, that involves providing the Start relay with a direct feed from the battery bypassing the ignition switch and existing fuses thats one way of refreshing the starter but some simple maintenance will work as well. It's very important that the start circuit is still disabled by the ignition switch, the coil must not be wired direct.

BTW, the main Red feed to the switch and the Brown wire back to the fuse block are unprotected if you ever got a short to ground on either of those wires chances are the bike is up in smoke, I always like to add a big fat fuse to the red wire where it leaves the battery (sometimes at the starter), a 40 Amps in-line fuse should never blow but it's cheap insurance and a handy way to isolate the battery.

[Tom]

Outside chance that after you do all of that, it could be the ignition switch itself.  The internal contacts could be corroded or glazed over with some plastic.  Carefully S back the prongs and scrape clean the contacts.  Had to do this on my Convert, Strada & 1000S.  Gave up on the Strada ignition switch and replaced it with a universal one from Carquest.

[Kiwi Dave]

Where might a guy get a new harness?

Same place where you found the wiring diagram.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/for_sale_wiring_harness_tonti_california_ii.html

[Kiwi_Roy]

Going back over your original post I have chopped out a few salient points

Using this diagram, http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1981_California_II.gif, I see that power SHOULD come into the starter relay (42) from the fuse #6 (40), but A) This fuse is not identified in the listing on the top/right of the diagram, B) Fuse #5 is identified in the listing as going to the relay, but on the diagram it goes to the high-beam relay, C) my actual fuse box has wires going in all the fuses on the rear side, but NO wires coming out on the top 2 fuses on the forward (FWD) side.

So I'm stumped as to where the power to the relay comes from on the actual fuse panel, and I won't be able to tell which posts on the relay come from the fuse/go to the relay until I remove the battery to get to the bolt that holds the actuator pivot to pull the friggin' rear master cyl off. 

(The thing is the wires can be moved around, since you are using one of Carls excellent drawings why not make it line up with that,
It seems to be standard to have a red wire feeding the ignition switch from the battery and a Brown wire feeding the fuses from the switch. 4, 5 & 6
As I keep stressing the feed to the start relay has to be really good, even a fraction of an Ohm is too much. I would make it match with the Brown wire landing on fuse 6 and the other end going to the start relay, go over every connection from the battery back to the start solenoid and make sure all connections are tight)

Another observation: Power goes to 1 side of the starter switch with the key on; when I hit the button, my circuit-tester light on this post goes out.....wait a minute....just went back to the garage to check THAT, and now there's no power to the starter switch. After I spent an hour hitting that switch and listening to the relay click. WHAT IS UP WITH THAT?
(this is ok as I mentioned earlier)

My fear is the BATT switch in the dash that won't come on has something to do with the no-power to the starter relay. The fact that there is suddenly no power to the starter switch also maddens me, but I think that's more easily figured out, or I can run a jumper to it from the battery (temporarily).
(The start button is used to ground out the relay, this is not house wiring, there are no rules LOL)

It sure sounds like one of the wires I dis-connected didn't re-connect properly, but my gut tells me something else is up. I have never delved into the fuse panel/rectifier installation on this bike, and I fear a hidden monster there. PO'd because "..it ran fine when I parked it".

Anyone care to comment?
(The California II wiring is quite complex, it was a sophisticated bike in its day)

Edit: ANyone know what that silver, large, old-school-looking box/relay is mounted under the seat, mounted to a frame cross-rail above the coils and almost resting on the fender?
(Could that be the Voltage regulator? Does it have any markings on it?)

 

[Kiwi Dave]

Sounds like it might be P8 ECU.  Were they around in this era?

[Tom]

IIRC not on Cal 2's unless retrofitted.  ECU came with the Cal 3's w/FI.  The ones that had carbs had electronic ignitions  but didn't need ecu's.  Anyone can correct.

[Kiwi Dave]

A photo might tell all.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The schematic shows old school points, mine had electronic ignition but it was installed by a previous owner, too early for an ECU

[brider]

thanks for the additional comments, Roy, I hope to dig back in time this on Monday.

[brider]

Got the rear master off to access the starter relay, but was pulling the 3-plug from the stator to the rectifier, and one of the posts (forward-most as you're sitting on a stool looking at the rectifier) pulled clean off from the circuit board. Need a new rectifier now.  No pics, but it DID happen.

I am continuing with checking connections and continuity, but should the starter circuit work without the 3-plug from the stator plugged in to the rectifier?

[wirespokes]

The alternator is completely separate from any other part of the electrical system. What I mean is that there are no interlocks or disconnects or anything like that.  As long as the battery is charged up, the starter should operate even with the alternator completely disconnected.

[Kiwi Dave]

Run a wire down from the battery positive to the starter motor relay (the one on the back of the starter motor). 

If there's no action, you might need to look at the starter motor relay itself.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Got the rear master off to access the starter relay, but was pulling the 3-plug from the stator to the rectifier, and one of the posts (forward-most as you're sitting on a stool looking at the rectifier) pulled clean off from the circuit board. Need a new rectifier now.  No pics, but it DID happen.

I am continuing with checking connections and continuity, but should the starter circuit work without the 3-plug from the stator plugged in to the rectifier?

You might want to consider one of the modern systems that replaces the Regulator and the rectifier, I used an Electrosport ESR450 on my Cali 2, it comes with all the wiring you need to replace the worn out old stuff.

https://www.electrosport.com/collections/street-motorcycles-moto-guzzi-1982-v1000-california-ii/products/esr450-regulator-rectifier-bmw-guzzi-bosch-alternator
These are built in China by a California company if you are ok with that.

As Dave says running a wire to touch on the solenoid proves the starter and the battery is good or bad. It will Bypass any flakey wiring, loose fuses etc. Just make sure the bike is in Neutral or you have the clutch pulled.

[Tom]

Or you could try these guys in CO.  https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/category-s/1846.htm

[brider]

As Dave says running a wire to touch on the solenoid proves the starter and the battery is good or bad. It will Bypass any flakey wiring, loose fuses etc. Just make sure the bike is in Neutral or you have the clutch pulled.

My plan was to do just that...jump to the starter solenoid to make sure THAT works, then work backward. Thanks for the reminder about being in gear....but mine is an Auto!

Reminds me of a friend who last year was proudly showing me his '71 Toyota FJ40 that he just got running....it was sitting in his driveway pointing into the garage, and he said "Watch how easily it fires up!" and reached across the driver's seat (he was standing in the driveway next to the missing driver's door) and hit the key.....it jumped to life instantly (just like he said), and being in-gear, chugged into the garage toward the back wall! He grabbed the wheel and was frantically trying to shut the key off while being dragged past the garage-door jamb, I thought he was going to get his legs ripped off. He got it shut off as it bumped into the solid bench on the back wall, legs still intact. He has security-camera footage of the whole affair, with me standing there with my mouth agape watching it happen.

[brider]

You might want to consider one of the modern systems that replaces the Regulator and the rectifier, I used an Electrosport ESR450 on my Cali 2, it comes with all the wiring you need to replace the worn out old stuff.
As Dave says running a wire to touch on the solenoid proves the starter and the battery is good or bad. It will Bypass any flakey wiring, loose fuses etc. Just make sure the bike is in Neutral or you have the clutch pulled.

I sent you a PM, Dave. I also ordered one of the Electrosport units, also.

In the meantime, I'm slowly going over connections. One statement you made stuck with me: "As I keep stressing the feed to the start relay has to be really good, even a fraction of an Ohm is too much. ". I checked resistance of the red wire from the 87 post on the relay to the starter solenoid on the 200 scale of my ohmmeter, it read 0.3 ohm. On that short of a wire with no other side-connections, I would've expected it to be zero. Could that much resistance cause problems? I'll look for damage, but I'm thinking of just running a new wire from the 87 post to the starter solenoid.

[wirespokes]

I checked resistance of the red wire from the 87 post on the relay to the starter solenoid on the 200 scale of my ohmmeter, it read 0.3 ohm.

There's no way for me to zero my Fluke multimeter - or my other electronic meters - so was wondering if that was taken into account? What does the meter read when the leads are shorted together?

[brider]

There's no way for me to zero my Fluke multimeter - or my other electronic meters - so was wondering if that was taken into account? What does the meter read when the leads are shorted together?

Leads read zero when shorted. IMO, any resistance in that short of a wire is wrong, I'm just going to bypass it.

[davidwb]

Not sure if this is any help at all; but on my old T3 Cali there was a hidden earthing point behind the fuse box and accessed from the battery area. If this is corroded (mine was) it can cause all sorts of hard to understand problems.
David.

[brider]

....earthing point behind the fuse box and accessed from the battery area.

If you're talking about the rectifier ground, I've checked that, and have a dedicated wire to the BATT - terminal for that.

This thread has been updated and superceded to this new one:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=101301.0