NO JOY YET< No Cranking issue in cooler weather

[old head]

Anyone,

After installing a Lithium battery a few years back, the bike has refused to crank when the temp gets around 60,  It usually takes several jabs at the starter button, and eventually, moving from clicks to gradual engagement of the starter.  Now this can be anywhere from 2 or clicks or many more depending on the temperature.  Usually, I just jump it off from my boat battery if I riding when its cooler.  Usually, after its ridden the battery works the rest of the day.

However, I got tired of this so I a ordered new AGM online, 18 amp hour.  It came with a 11.5 volt charge when I opened it, so I charged it with a 2amp charger.  It charged for about 4 hours and ended up with a 12.6 on my meter.  I installed the battery, cleaning the connections, although they weren't corroded.  the dash showed 12.6 volts.

Next morning I loaded the bike for my annual trip to Dallas for work meeting, about 450 miles each way.  the dash showed 12.6 volts, the temp was about 65, got one click then it fired right up.  Dash shows 13.4 volts with the motor running.  Stopped for gas about 3 hours later, took about a 20 minute break, and it fired right up.  next 2 stops same result, no clicks, fired right up, all good.  The next 2 days temps in the 60's in Dallas all good, no issues.  One morning low 60's got 1 click as I remember.

Friday morning, 29 and the first real test.  It failed miserably.  Would only click, not even a nudge from the starter.  Got one the guys from work to jump me off, fired right off with no clicks.  Dash shows 13.+ volts when running.  Stopped for gas, it was 30 and no crank, just clicks.  Luckily, I got a jump.

Second stop for about 40, it fired up right after finishing filling up, so I pulled to the store and went inside to warm up for about 20 minutes.  Came back out, and nothing but clicks, had to bump start it.  Next stop temp about 42, this time it fired right up so again I went inside came back pretty quick.  It clicked 2 times then fired off.

this morning its 58 and all I get are clicks.

So what are the possible problems?  I am thinking maybe a sticking solenoid, defective hot cable to starter, bad ground?  Will be checking all connections, but I don't thnk this is the issue, as it never fails to crank when its over 70, ever.  I guess I could have a bad new battery, but seems unlikely.

Relay?

I did the Startus Imterrupus many years ago, and never had any issues until the Lithium battery.  I assumed it was the batter all this time, as the dash always showed the Lithium battery with less than 12 volts when its cool.  Prior to Litium battery, never had an issue cranking in cold weather.

Old Head

[guzzisteve]

You have the right idea on what to look at, check the startus interuptus connections also.  I would be checking the alternator for output that's going into your battery. Should be well over 13V. It could even be the starter w/bad connections. You'll find it.

[Kiwi Dave]

Anyone,

So what are the possible problems?  I am thinking maybe a sticking solenoid, defective hot cable to starter, bad ground?  Will be checking all connections, but I don't thnk this is the issue, as it never fails to crank when its over 70, ever.  I guess I could have a bad new battery, but seems unlikely.

Next time it fails to crank, run a lead from the battery positive down to the solenoid on the starter motor.  If it turns over, you still have startus interruptus, if not then it's possibly a defective starter or your new battery.

[bigbikerrick]

Next time it fails to crank, run a lead from the battery positive down to the solenoid on the starter motor.  If it turns over, you still have startus interruptus, if not then it's possibly a defective starter or your new battery.

That is a great idea, Dave! Good way to rule out the starter/solenoid as the culprit, and narrow down the diagnosis a bit.   
Rick.

[Wayne Orwig]

However, I got tired of this so I a ordered new AGM online, 18 amp hour.  It came with a 11.5 volt charge when I opened it, so I charged it with a 2amp charger.  It charged for about 4 hours and ended up with a 12.6 on my meter.  I installed the battery, cleaning the connections, although they weren't corroded.  the dash showed 12.6 volts.

If the AGM has sat on a shelf for very long at 11.5V, it has probably sulfated a good bit. Sitting for long below about 12.1V quickly leads to problems. 11.5V is dead, and almost certain to be a big issue.

12.6V when just removed from the chargers isn't great. 12.6V is what you would see after sitting overnight uncharged. From the Odyssey manual referring to a battery that has sat for 6 or more hours, "a healthy, fully charged ODYSSEY battery will have an OCV of 12.84V or higher at 77ºF (25ºC)."

Plus, a basically dead battery may need a lot more that a 4 hour charge. Absorption charge tends to need 14.7V for 8 hours.
The working jump start tends to indicate it is a battery (or charging) problem, not a bad starter.

[flower_king001]

I would not buy a AGM battery off the shelf that has already been activated. I would buy one and add the acid myself Open the vent plugs, add acid per instructions. Leave the caps off and cover with a clean cloth and let the battery sit for 24 hours with NO charger!  Once it has sat for 24 hrs charge overnight with a small rate charger and once completely charged install the caps.

You may have enough volts but not amps

[Chuck in Indiana]

If you read the manual, an AGM needs to be "conditioned." It will take overnight with a dedicated charger that charges at a minimum of 6 amps at no more than 15 volts.
As Wayne says above, that battery was dead when new.. probably sitting on the shelf for years.
I have an Odyssey charger that has brought one back from the grave. It was doing exactly what yours is doing.

[Wayne Orwig]

this morning its 58 and all I get are clicks.

Also, when you say 'clicks', do you mean a very faint hard to hear click under the seat. Or do you mean a loud CLUNK at the starter?

[guzzisteve]

Put a meter across battery and see how far the voltage drops when it goes 'clicky clicky'

[flower_king001]

1100 Breva? Had similar problems and don't assume your new battery is good. I had the same problem and did the
MPH startus interruptus fix. While my battery was showing good voltage I still had starting issues. Mine would start when warm here in middle TN but once the temps would drop no start. In the end it was a BAD new battery.

First make sure you have a good battery and do a load test.

Remove and clean all battery connections and clean. Also check the ground behind the starter and make sure it's clean and tight. Be careful not to snap/break the bolt. Also it's not as bad idea to do away with that short ground cable and make a new one and ground it to the back of the gear box.

[old head]

Also, when you say 'clicks', do you mean a very faint hard to hear click under the seat. Or do you mean a loud CLUNK at the starter?

Its more than the relay click, but its not the starter trying to engage.  I sounds like the solenoid trying to engage.  when the starter starts to engage, its very noticeable. 

My brother says it probably a bad ground, he had a John Deere that was doing the same thing and he said the starter wasn't grounding to the motor.  He removed it, cleaned it up and it worked after he got the starter to ground to the motor.

 I am gonna start with the running another wire to the solenoid after I fully charge the battery, and see if the starter engages when I bypass the wiring of the starter button.
next would be checking all the cables to the starter, solenoid, and ground wires, and see where that takes me.

Its just odd that it only happens when its cool, hot weather never have a issue.  I will report my findings as I move through all the suggests everyone has suggested, and see what happens.  I am still leaning toward a bad new battery, but we will see.  I will take it to the local battery place and have them test it with load, if nothing is found. 

Old Head

[flangeman_70]

I’d be looking at the earthing of the engine. I had this happen on my SPIII after many years without issues after putting in a dedicated start relay. I used a direct wire from positive to the solenoid and the issue remained. So I used a jumper lead from the stud of the starter motor mount bolt to the negative terminal, problem found. Confirmed it with a meter also. On both my bikes I now have a dedicated earth to the motor as well as the frame at the top gearbox to engine mounting stud.

Good luck

Adam

[Tom H]

Maybe give this a read, sorta sounds like what I went through:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=99554.0;nowap

Good luck,
Tom

[Kev m]

OH, why do you find it odd that it only happens cold? That makes perfect sense. A cold motor takes more power to turn over and a cold battery provides less power.

So it's the most common time problems with borderline battery condition and/or connections would reveal themselves.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Maybe give this a read, sorta sounds like what I went through:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=99554.0;nowap

Good luck,
Tom

I was wondering when you were going to post.. 

[flower_king001]

Before doing anything with wires, starter ect you must isolate the obvious aka first things first.

Make sure that the battery condition %100 before anything.

Only after making sure about the condition of the battery would I move forward.

It has only been within the past 2 months that I experienced the same issues with my 1100 Breva. I had a battery that was right at one year old and was showing 12.5 volts and would start from time to time. I checked a few obvious things such as grounds ect. I even took my starter out of the bike and made sure that it would spin/crank under NO load. I as well did not want to believe my one year old MotoBatt battery was no good till I did a load test. Do NOT assume that the new battery you got is a good one. You have no idea what care or lack of went into preparing the battery that you purchased. I would recommend buying a  genuine (not an equivalent to) Yuasa battery and follow the instructions on the video link. I would also let the acid sit in the battery overnight to make sure it absorbs the  mats thoroughly before charging.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpg10yp4duo

[old head]

checked battery this morning.  I got home about 930 pm Friday night.  Hadn't done anything until this morning and the battery shows 12.0 volts with my meter and the dash readout on the bike.  so it seems it is either a battery or a charging system, maybe lose ground.    I can't see anyway the battery would be that low after a 500+ day after sitting 2 days.  I wish I had checked it when I pulled into the shed, but I was too cold to think about it.  I checked it a couple of times while running and it showed 13.5 or 13.6 volts each time I checked it, so I would think the alternator is good.

I put my charger on it and we will see.  May go have it load tested after charging.  battery shows 13.1 volts while connected to charger.  I will check in a couple of hours and see where its at.

Old Head

[Chuck in Indiana]

As I mentioned above, if an AGM isn't "conditioned" properly, it will never hold a proper charge. <shrug> We did a long thread at the V11 Lemans forum relating to this.
All you need to know about maintaining AGM batteries here:
https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18838

[fotoguzzi]

No beating around the bush, you need to get it load tested then replaced.

[old head]

2 hours on a 6amp charger the battery reads 14.3 volts with charger off.  I put on the 2amp trickle charger to see what happens.

Old head

[Kiwi Dave]

2 hours on a 6amp charger the battery reads 14.3 volts with charger off.  I put on the 2amp trickle charger to see what happens

No load voltage readings are basically a waste of time.  There may be a tiny bit of the battery that is still good providing that voltage but then cannot provide any current when the load demands.

[John A]

No load voltage readings are basically a waste of time.  There may be a tiny bit of the battery that is still good providing that voltage but then cannot provide any current when the load demands.

that's a good point.  you need to take the surface charge off by turning on the headlight,  take your reading while cranking. if it drops to roughly ten volts or less, it'll need to be conditioned like Chuck says.  Your starter may also need a freshening. the wireing may also need correction,  keep at it you'll find it. I have an older Schumacher model SE-1010-2 charger that is 10/2 amps that works well on absorbed matt batteries because on 10 amps it limits the voltage to 15v and then on 2 amps it goes to 14 volts as the battery charges

[Wayne Orwig]

checked battery this morning.  I got home about 930 pm Friday night.  Hadn't done anything until this morning and the battery shows 12.0 volts with my meter and the dash readout on the bike.

Needs a good charge and load test. Those numbers indicate to me the battery is VERY suspect.
Have you checked to see if you can get it replaced? I think they sold you a battery that had been on the shelf way too long.

[old head]

Update

I took the battery to Auto Zone close by and did a load test.  they said they tested it at 150, as I didn't know what the CCA rating is.  The battery showed full charge and tested good.
I am still not sure that it was tested properly, but what do I know.

At any rate, I came home put the battery in and all I got was clicks.  Its 78 now, so it should have started but didn't.

so I pulled the battery and cleaned the cables at the battery.
 
Next went to the ground, the lug was tight but seemed wobbly to me coming out.  Cleaned the cables, again looked pretty good, some black on the copper ends but I sanded them off clean.  I also cleaned the base of the lug, it had some discoloration also, Ohm meter show 6.71 before cleaning and now it shows .1 so that's a good sign I think.

However, the lug won't go back in the threaded hole, looks to be worn out.  I tried for several minutes but to no avail to get the lug to go in by hand no go.  I have a call in a friend who is a machinist and see if he has time to come by and take a look.  Don't want to make it worse.

pulled the positive off and cleaned it also, again some slight discoloration, but nothing that I would have thought to impede the power, but you never know.

I wanted to crank it and measure how much voltage drop and report back, but it won't crank, so after I get the ground fixed I will report back.

the battery has a voltage of 13.1 volts after the load test.  I put the 2 amp charger on it then measure it again, and see where the voltage ends up after I get the ground lug fixed.

Old Head.
 

[Wayne Orwig]

the battery has a voltage of 13.1 volts after the load test.

That is a very good sign that the battery is OK.

[old head]

That is a very good sign that the battery is OK.

 thanks, hopefully all it needed was a good cleaning.  Friend will be by one day this week to take a look about the lug being wobbly.

Old Head

[twowings]

Dirty connections and iffy wiring have sold many a new battery.

[Furbo]

Well,,

assume this is your Breva 1100? If so the alternator is probably not your issue. That said if you test voltage at just over idle, say 2K RPM you should have 14.2-5 Volts.

Lithium batts are infamous for their cold weather (non) performance.

What AGM battery did you use pray tell? Did you spring for the $$Odyssey?

Even my '76 850T3 would start reliably into the 50's with a $20 lawn & garden tractor battery.

[flower_king001]

thanks, hopefully all it needed was a good cleaning.  Friend will be by one day this week to take a look about the lug being wobbly.

Old Head

Have a new longer ground wire made and ground it to the back of your gear box.

Remove the old ground wire that is fastened to the "wobbly lug" and reinstall. If secure just use the "wobbly lug" for the plastic starter cover.

[old head]

Okay,  my bud came by and retapped the lug where the ground cables are connected to the starter.  I cleaned all the cables, and my ohm meter shows 6.8 from battery to lug through the connections.  Meter shows 6.8 from battery to engine and from battery to starter.  Maybe I need to reclean the cables, bolt, and bases again.

I checked my Jeep from battery to engine block and its only .2 to .3 at several places.  So it would seem that 6.8 on the Breva is high resistance.  Is a 6.8 high enough to keep it from cranking?  Maybe the ground cable is corroded inside where I can't see.

I guess I can use a jumper cable to see if it cranks with a jumper cable to the battery and lug bypassing the ground cable, or trying a different ground to complete the circuit.

I charged the battery on Monday with my 2amp charger and it only showed 12.1 volts today, and of course all I got was clicks at the starter, its about 51 this morning.  Dash shows 12.1 volts, meter shows 12.2.   I didn't check the battery when the charger cut off, so I put it back on the charger and will check when the charger cuts off.

could be a couple things combined to keep it from cranking, I suppose.

Old Head

I may go have the battery rechecked on Monday as Autozone said it was good, but I question it as I don't think it would be that low on charge with not being connected and just being charged a few days ago.  However, I need to check the voltage after its charged to compare the charge with the drop in voltage.