MARK’S GRISO FUEL MAP REVIEW (somewhat long)

[molly]

I'm looking forward to the the reviews it will make interesting reading.
I have done a fair  bit of road testing on various products and maps and have found initial thoughts do change over a period of time. People are quick to praise their new piece of kit because it feels different so must be better. I have fallen into this trap before, writing a glowing report for a UK made optimiser only to regret it  later.
 So the initial findings need backing up with long term feedback as well.

[beetle]

People are quick to praise their new piece of kit because it feels different so must be better.

So true.  I hope that they will update their reviews after a period of riding. A revisit can be a good thing. However, one can get used to something too, so that the shine can wear off.   :D

[Vasco DG]

OK, just to revive this old thread but so far nobody who accepted Mark's offer has responded with a review.

Is it still too cold to ride? Do you reckon its crap? Can't you get it to install? Let us know so we can try and help.

Pete

[Travman]

OK, just to revive this old thread but so far nobody who accepted Mark's offer has responded with a review.

Is it still too cold to ride? Do you reckon its crap? Can't you get it to install? Let us know so we can try and help.

Pete

I apologize for the delay. The local shop I rely on wasn't really prepared to do this. They were confused with what I was asking about. They have the Piaggo software but do not have the Guzzidiag or the correct cables. So I have downloaded the map reader and writer software and the GuzziDiag. I have also bought the correct cables from Amazon. So I'm ready to get started. Hopefully I will have something to report soon. If I get stuck, I'll let you guys know.

[4vgoose]

Hello out there, my name is Tod from Maryland and I was one of the ones who accepted Mark's offer.  This past weekend is the first the weather has allowed me a test.  I have the 2013 model.  I was going to wait for a more thorough test and reply but let me give my initial impression now.

I have a stock bike except:  removed the air pollution canister and installed a G2 throttle cam as a band aid for a somewhat abrupt throttle response under some conditions.  This devise was originally developed for dirt bikes to mechanically change the throttle response by having a cam profile pulley on the throttle tube rather than a circular one.  You get less throttle cable pull for the first so many degrees of rotation compared to stock so it is easier to be smooth opening the throttle.  My trackday riding has taught me that the sooner and more smoothly you can open the throttle at the apex, the better control and exit speed you can have.  It helped somewhat.

I had the OBD cable from my days messing with my 675 Daytona with TuneECU and bought the 16 to 3 cable through Amazon.  Downloaded GuzziDiag and TunerPro without much grief.  Saved my stock map.  Took a test ride with the stock maps over familiar back roads then the next day installed Marks' maps and rode the same short circuit.

I wasn't happy with the way the stock FI did not seem to know what it was doing at small throttle opening and lower RPMs.  Opening the throttle some more gave an abrupt response, part of which seemed like drive line lash.  That killed some the fun out of having a big V twin street bike. I also didn't like the engine braking or lack there of.   I am used to substantial engine braking without a slipper clutch on my BMWs and the RC51 I once had.  I learned to have that as part of my braking.  This motor seems to add fuel on a closed throttle when I'm braking and feels like it's pushing me into the turn. I don't think Mark's work can or does address this one.  More aggressive pads might help but I don't expect much.

So... the map put a smile on my face.  The engine response is such that you would have to be pretty picky to complain about anything.  Nice not to have to pay so much attention to the throttle when you are cruising through town and has everything you want when the road opens up.  Still have a bit of drive line lash but no worse than my Rockster.  I think it is mechanical.

I've been an engineer for the last 25 years or so and was a bike mechanic at a Honda dealer in the 70's so I have some background but have never done engine development.  The engineer in me would love to understand how with all those maps and numbers available for tuning that it can be done with the seat of your pants and reading plugs but as long as the fuel map is not too lean or ignition timing too advanced I figure the results speak for themselves.
I'll try to get out and do more testing but my life isn't leaving me a lot of time right about now.  If Mark and Pete are offering this for a modest donation, I would encourage anyone to go this way if they aren't happy with stock. 

This is a DIY project so computer knowledge is needed and you may get a crappy cable from China from what I've heard.  If you wonder why someone hasn't done all the work and investment to make it like a turnkey consumer product, have a go at it.  These cables usually are supplied with some pricey diagnostic machines.  You would be paying for software, hardware, and all the overhead of a business to offer a commercial product.  With some help if you need it,  this is doable.  Neat in a way that you are putting together free software from two different parts of the world, patching together two cables (cheap) and all this development work on a bike with very low production numbers.  Is this what the young ones call crowd sourcing?

I'll write again when I get the chance for more riding.
cheers,
tod

[Vasco DG]

The engineer in me would love to understand how with all those maps and numbers available for tuning that it can be done with the seat of your pants and reading plugs but as long as the fuel map is not too lean or ignition timing too advanced I figure the results speak for themselves.

The numbers are simply microseconds of injection time, higher number=More fuel.

The thing is reading the plugs is not difficult. Yes it is a skill that has to be learnt but there is no magic to it. It also has the huge advantage that it tells you what is happening in the combustion chamber, not after it. EGA is very useful BUT it analyses the gas in the exhaust pipe. In the case of the Guzzi 8V this can give false information about the burn due to charge transiting the combustion chamber on valve overlap. I believe a five gas analyser would be more useful with this engine but not many people use them nowadays.

Thing is Mark's map was neither quick or easy, in fact it is the 63rd iteration he has built and every one had to be loaded, tested, the results analysed and changes and corrections made. It wasn't a simple matter of plugging in a tool, looking at one set of results and producing a single map in a sort of 'Wham-Bam-Thank You M'am' way, it was a long, hard slog. Something that people sometimes forget or seem resistant to believing or understanding.

Yes, there are those who will continue to say that its been gone about the wrong way and that 'Nobody does it that way any more.' Well, sorry, some people do and as you say Tod, the results speak for themselves.

Thanks for taking the time to review it.

Pete

[Travman]

I now have the cables recommended to me by Porterhouse.  The USB cable came with a small CD that I assume contains a set of drivers necessary to use the cable.  However, when I insert the CD the drivers do not automatically install.  No big deal, I look for a setup.exe file.  I found nothing.  What should I be doing to get the drivers to install so this cable will work?  I also tried to get the computer to detect new hardware with the cable plugged into the USB port, but it could not detect it.
This is where I bought the cable: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-FTDI-FT232RL-KKL-USB-OBD-ODB-OBDII-OBD2-INTERFACE/370453504187

This a picture of the files on the CD.

[Porterhouse]

Travis,

Don't use the drivers that come on the CD.  You need to get the most recent drivers and they are available on the FTDI website.  I believe there is a link to them on the guzzidiag web page.  Let me go get a link...

http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/  Click the link for the windows driver.

Which takes you to this download:  http://www.ftdichip.com/Drivers/CDM/CDM%202.08.30%20WHQL%20Certified.zip

I'm running the Mac version, which once you download and install the Mac FTDI driver, the program will jump right onto your ECU.

Hope that helps.

[Travman]

Awesome. You are too kind. I'll give it another go tomorrow.

[Porterhouse]

Also, note the following caveat a little farther down on the GuzziDiag page:

FTDI Driver Windows:

If you have problems to get a connection try to install version 2.08.14 of the driver.
It looks like that version 2.08.28 and .30 has problems with the new FT232R chip in some constellations.

[Bikeless]

Fellow Guzistas - a mid-mileage review.

I've been using Beetle's SuperMap since early January of this year.  This isn't a particularly long time to base a review on, and there have been a few weeks during this time when the weather or circumstances forced me to :shudder: drive to work.

However, I've put a few hundred miles on my bike using this map, in conditions ranging from ~35* F [~1*C] to 75* F [30* C], from nose-bleed dry to super-saturated fog conditions.  The vast majority of my 8 mile inbound commute is spent lanesplitting, so a lot of riding in 1st & 2nd gear; sometimes I might hit 3rd on a good day.  The ride home is at highway speeds, 65-80 mph.  I spend more time in the lower gears than any rational person should, and probably more than most.  

My 8v was, in it's stock mapping form, almost unrideable in the lower gears; it's great now.  Highway mileage is up to the high 30s mpg; lower when I'm commuting or mixing city/suburbs and freeway, obviously.  Power is sublime across the entire throttle range.

I can post a more definitive review this summer, and would be happy to discuss my experiences with anyone that cares.  But I'm very happy with the SuperMap, and I can't really imagine my 8v without it.

[Greg Field]

If one is still available, I'll take it for the Griso Pinko.

[pauldaytona]

I now have the cables recommended to me by Porterhouse.  The USB cable came with a small CD that I assume contains a set of drivers necessary to use the cable.  However, when I insert the CD the drivers do not automatically install.  No big deal, I look for a setup.exe file.  I found nothing.  What should I be doing to get the drivers to install so this cable will work?  I also tried to get the computer to detect new hardware with the cable plugged into the USB port, but it could not detect it.
This is where I bought the cable: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-FTDI-FT232RL-KKL-USB-OBD-ODB-OBDII-OBD2-INTERFACE/370453504187

This a picture of the files on the CD.

 So does it work now? funny those cd files, 12 years old!  If there is no setup with driver files, right click the one ending on in and choose Install.

The ftdi drivers exist with setup

http://www.ftdichip.com/drivers/cdm/cdm20814_setup.exe

run setup with cable not in pc, then put usb in your pc and it should work.

[Vasco DG]

If one is still available, I'll take it for the Griso Pinko.

Greg, of course. Steve has it, along with all the. Guzzidiag stuff. Unless there has been some insurmountable schism in your relationship I'm sure he'd be happy to load it up. If you'd like it sent direct and have the gear yourself? You're more than welcome.

Pete

[Porterhouse]

If one is still available, I'll take it for the Griso Pinko.

Greg,

I'd be happy to come over this weekend and load the map up, or at least walk you through getting the correct cables and the read/write process on a Mac.  I'm heading down to California on Tuesday morning and will be gone for about 4 weeks.  So if I can be of any help, it will have to be this weekend.

SD

[Greg Field]

Greg,

I'd be happy to come over this weekend and load the map up, or at least walk you through getting the correct cables and the read/write process on a Mac.  I'm heading down to California on Tuesday morning and will be gone for about 4 weeks.  So if I can be of any help, it will have to be this weekend.

SD

It can wait until your return. I'll call you later.

[Travman]

Sorry for the delay, but I have finally got Mark's latest map loaded and just got back from an hour long ride.  The bike runs great.  It feels a little faster than before.  However, it has been about a month since I rode the Griso and in the meantime I've been riding my Ambassador and CX500.  So my sense of speed has been altered during that time.  I wish I did this all at once and tested the bike before and after on the same day.  My bike has always run well.  There has never been any of the surging or problems that I've read about on some of the early 8V bikes.  The main reason to try this map was make sure the bike wasn't running too lean from the factory.  There was always a lot of heat being put off that was especially noticeable during hot and humid weather.  This is part of the reason my exhaust pipes were ceramic coated with Jet-Hot.  That helped a lot, but even after the Jet-Hot my right foot still received a fair amount of heat from that bend in the exhaust near the shifter.  It was only 75 degrees F today with no humidity.  So I won't be able to test the hot foot issue for a while.   

In addition, there was no popping on the overrun.  Many times I tested for this and only heard a little burbling, which is what it has always done. 

What else should I look for?  Should I check the gas mileage?  Check the plugs to see what they look like?

Mark, thank you very much for letting me try your map.  Thanks for the tutorial too.  I printed it out and it made the job go very smoothly. 

[Vasco DG]

Travis, if your bike is stock or running just a can with a dB killer that map you can check your plugs by all means but you don't have to worry as there are a host of folks running it and slightly earlier iterations and there hasn't been one problem of a mechanical nature.

With the stock map with the lambda active the ECU will try and correct to overly lean settings in closed loop, now its running open loop the while time you should find a considerable improvement in fuel economy because in fact most of the factory maps are in fact far too rich!

Pete

[Travman]

Travis, if your bike is stock or running just a can with a dB killer that map you can check your plugs by all means but you don't have to worry as there are a host of folks running it and slightly earlier iterations and there hasn't been one problem of a mechanical nature.

With the stock map with the lambda active the ECU will try and correct to overly lean settings in closed loop, now its running open loop the while time you should find a considerable improvement in fuel economy because in fact most of the factory maps are in fact far too rich!

Pete

My bike has a Mistral can with the dB killer installed.  I'll check my fuel economy with my next few tanks of gas. 

It definitely ran well today, just couldn't say how much better.  I really should have done this all in one afternoon instead of spread out over such a long period of time. 

[Leaf]

So has anyone developed an 1100 map yet?  I have a 2007 G11 with Mistral can, no db killer (not so loud at all).  The bike was surging and popping at low rpm before I installed the 02 Optimiser.  Now, it's very smooth on the bottom end, runs great all around.  That being said, a turn key map with improvements throughout the rev range and no need for an Optimiser is attractive.  Anyone?  A great working 1100 map with aftermarket pipe? 

[beetle]

I have an 1100 map as well as the 8V map. It's built for cans with catcons and dB killers, but I'm sure I can tweak it for the Mistral with proper feedback. If it's the Hi-Pipe then it will be easy.

[Leaf]

Sounds good, I'll start to assemble the parts and contact you when I have the software working. 

[jc1200]

Hi,

Further to Mark's generous offer to try his Griso 8V map way back last year, I decided to forget about work and stuff today and at last I have loaded the latest one I received in October 2014.

When I bought the bike I soon got a bit dissillusioned with the stock map and had a local guy sort something out for me (at a price). Things were better but I still had issues with slow riding and harsh acceleration with popping on overrun - I do a lot of journeys in and out of London (40 miles or so), up the motorway and then chugging around London Streets; I was getting a bit fed up with the very lumpy slow running with clutch in and out to control at slow speeds.....

Well, Mark's map (stock silencer) has been a revelation!! I played with Guzzidiag this morning, hooked up my laptop and found it all a piece of cake (I was a bit worried about f***ing everything up!). Went for a ride of about 60 miles after it was all done and I am amazed how smooth the engine and drive train have become.

No more 'clutch riding' at slow speeds, constant gears through slow corners, etc.. At first I thought the acceleration seemed much softer but it's just as fast (faster) but the smoothness confused me at first. So the brakes got a lot more use as my approach speeds are much higher now.

A different bike, many thanks for the opportunity Mark - I'll email you at some point but brilliant work, all your efforts greatly appreciated.

[Vasco DG]

Hi,

Further to Mark's generous offer to try his Griso 8V map way back last year, I decided to forget about work and stuff today and at last I have loaded the latest one I received in October 2014.

When I bought the bike I soon got a bit dissillusioned with the stock map and had a local guy sort something out for me (at a price). Things were better but I still had issues with slow riding and harsh acceleration with popping on overrun - I do a lot of journeys in and out of London (40 miles or so), up the motorway and then chugging around London Streets; I was getting a bit fed up with the very lumpy slow running with clutch in and out to control at slow speeds.....

Well, Mark's map (stock silencer) has been a revelation!! I played with Guzzidiag this morning, hooked up my laptop and found it all a piece of cake (I was a bit worried about f***ing everything up!). Went for a ride of about 60 miles after it was all done and I am amazed how smooth the engine and drive train have become.

No more 'clutch riding' at slow speeds, constant gears through slow corners, etc.. At first I thought the acceleration seemed much softer but it's just as fast (faster) but the smoothness confused me at first. So the brakes got a lot more use as my approach speeds are much higher now.

A different bike, many thanks for the opportunity Mark - I'll email you at some point but brilliant work, all your efforts greatly appreciated.

This is one of the things that tricks you at first. After five or so years of running the 68S map I had become acclimatised to riding around its imperfections and one of the things I tended to do was accelerate harder than I needed to in certain situations to avoid the slightly cantankerous small throttle behavior. Using Mark's map because I no longer had to do this I initially thought that overall the performance seemed *Softer*. A few separate timed runs on my local 'Sprint Track' soon disabused me of that notion! :D it's just that the Beetlemap is so linear that there are no discernible flat spots or dips in the torque curve, it just progressively builds torque and power so it's easy to find yourself looking down at the speedo and thinking 'F*ck me drunk!' As you hurtle towards 200kph!

If there is one *Problem* it is that it's so relaxed and effortless that one has to pay much more attention to one's speed as travelling at 'Go to Gaol' speeds feels like bimbling down to the shops for a litre of milk!

Pete

[jc1200]

Pete,

Maybe none of this would have happened without your input - I really appreciate the time and effort you have put in on all matters relating to these bikes; I love the griso but probably wouldn't have persevered with it without your optimism and the reams of information on this and other forums on all matters.

Cheers mate!

[Vasco DG]

No. My input has been minimal. I am simply a recipient and promoter of others excellent work.

Pete

[old head]

I have an 1100 map as well as the 8V map. It's built for cans with catcons and dB killers, but I'm sure I can tweak it for the Mistral with proper feedback. If it's the Hi-Pipe then it will be easy.

Beetle

I have been reading this topic for awhile in the hopes of this statement. 

My 06 Breva suffers from a little pinging from time to time, stumbles some at low speed accelerations.  Just an irritation, nothing that would want me to do major modifications.  If you map would fix these and maybe improve MPG some what that would be awesome.  I run premium non ethanol gas about 90% of the time.  If I am on the road, then I can't always find non ethanol gas, around my house I have several stations that have real gas.  The bike is completely stock, no aftermarket exhaust or modifications to air or fueling.

While I have never done anything of this type, sounds like within my grasp, except for the balancing afterwards, don't have the equipment. 
Can the bike be ridden to the shop to be re-balanced afterward, or would you recommend I trailer to the shop.

Old Head

[beetle]

Old Head,

I have a Breva 1100 specific map. You won't need to trailer your bike anywhere if it does need a TB balance. Load the map and ride. Of course, you'll need the GuzziDiag software and cables to load the map.

[rboe]

I took Mark's map to the Not a Rally last year (one of his earlier versions and new to me) and it had some teething problems. He kept coming up with maps faster than I could keep up with. The second to last map has been on my bike for about six months as it worked plenty good and frankly I wanted to run a map a bit before updating again. Finally burned in the Gold version from last August and took it to the Not a Rally this weekend. Gas mileage ranged from 36 to 47mpg (the last tank has not been computed but coming from Flagstaff to Phoenix with an over night stay in Cottonwood the on board computer said 36.7mpg but the low fuel light came on at 142 miles. Normally it blinks at 120 for me.

Jerkiness on the round abouts in Cottonwood was gone, acceleration from the basement (1200 rpm) was smooth. While not hammering it really, it does seem to lack some of the eye ball flattening acceleration the stock map had while retaining the sneaking 80-90mph jump without fan fare that can earn you a ticket if you're not watching. Hit 90 a couple times on the Interstate while over compensating for a hill and headwind. Just a minor tweak of the throttle and the bike is going way faster than you think. With NO feedback that she is working hard. The Honda CB1100 has the power to do the same but the inline four lets you know with good audio cues from downstairs.

The "new" map is the bee's knee's. On one hand I'm glad I waited so my seat time on the older maps let me appreciate the final version; if you are on the fence about upgrading it, at this point I see no down side. Go for it. Mark et al; nice job!  :bow

[jc1200]

To continue:-
Remapped last Saturday, everything good.
Quick spin on Sunday starting from cold, everything good.
I took the bike to my workshop yesterday to load up some parts for delivery to London today, quite a lumpy start and stalled and then took a while to settle down (about three miles) with some popping on decelleration. I thought maybe it was crappy fuel; went into London to deliver this morning, a little lumpy at the start, still much better but actually experienced some pinking pulling off from a couple of sets of lights.
Running well on the way back with a small empty spot when giving it some throttle at around 3000 - 4000 revs.
I've just got back and filled up....44 UK miles to an imperial gallon so I'm happy with that....

Thinking I may re-install the map and reset TPS and learning again to see if that makes a difference - anyone got any tips on using the GD Stepper Test?

I have my CO trim at -5 .....is it worth going nearer 0?

Still very happy with the smoothness though and I'll see if the new tank of fuel helps any, if not I'll try re-installing.