Wanted: Long-Distance Comfort and High-Speed Stability

[JeffOlson]

Greetings!

My 2014 Norge is lot of fun, but it is not very comfortable after 100 miles or so, and it is pretty unstable above 65 miles per hour. I would like a motorcycle that is comfortable for three hours at a stretch (at least 150 miles) and is rock solid on the freeway at 75 miles per hour. Unfortunately, my Norge is neither. It is great around town and on back roads, and it is comfortable enough for shorter distances, but it is exhausting and painful to ride more than 100 miles at a stretch, and it is surprisingly unstable at 70 to 80 miles per hour. (Strangely, it becomes stable again at 90 miles per hour!)

The cockpit is frankly just too cramped for me. I am 5' 10" tall, with a 31 inch inseam, and a little under 200 pounds sans gear. And the winds and turbulence on the freeway at 75 miles per hour bounce me all over my lane.

I no longer have an automobile, so I am relying upon my Norge as my daily driver. (My wife has a new truck for when my Moto Guzzi is in the shop!) I need to be able to ride in comfort at high speed for three hours at a stretch, in the dark and in the rain. I also need hard, locking panniers.

Any thoughts? Would the Stelvio be better, or the California 1400 Touring? Or perhaps a Road King, R 1200 RT, or Trophy SE?

Thanks!

[yogidozer]

a sport 1100 is far more comfortable than you would think

[segesta]

The Iron Butt guys seem to swear by the Yamaha FJR1300, or whatever its current variant is. But it is heavy, like 70 pounds more than an R1200RT or Norge.

[Bill929]

I know this is a Guzzi board, but...  My 2015 R1200GS is smooth and rock solid at 80 mph and with all the adjustments (seat, windshield, etc.) you should be able to find a comfortable position.  The RT would be even more so.   I am also getting excellent gas mileage:  44-46 at sea level and 53-55 in the NC mountains which translates into a 250 mile range. 

[rocker59]

I've never heard that kind of negative report on a Norge, and my (limited) experience with the bikes is quite the opposite as yours.

What is it about the Norge's seating that is uncomfortable?  I found Norge to be touring-bike comfortable.  In fact, too "touring" for my daily riding tastes...

I got nothing on the instability.  Never heard that complaint.  Didn't experience it when I've demo'd the bikes.

Sounds to me like an aftermarket seat and a larger windscreen would be worth trying, before trading it for something else.

[pyoungbl]

Jeff, the Stelvio is rock solid at Interstate speeds and more.  I have a Russel Day Long seat and can easily stay in the saddle for 3+ hours (at which time my bladder says WHOA) but then I can proceed to knock out a 600 mile day with no drama.  I'd pick this setup for my next 1Kday.  The OEM seat is darn good, I just like the RDL better.

Of course the NTX has lockable hard bags. 

I had a Norge and had some of the same comfort issues you mention:  sitting down in the bike rather than on the machine seemed to lock me into a position I could not live with.  My knees hated being bent so much and I could not wiggle around on the seat enough to keep from getting ass-ache.

Your 31 inch inseam might be an issue.  Sit on a Stelvio and make sure the seat is in the low position.

Peter Y.

[Kev m]

I generally found my Breva to be quite solid on the highway, just like my R1100RS was.

BUT in comparison, when it came to foul weather, especially with high winds, I always found something that sat lower and didn't have a half or full fairing was MORE SOLID.

So to that end, I think an RK or Cali 1400 MIGHT offer some advantage at that.

Comfort is a case of ergos, and that's too personal/subjective, so I won't bother trying.

But if cross-winds and turbulence are your complaint, I think you want to sit lower on a machine that has less solid surface area to catch that wind.

[rocker59]

Yeah Kev,

I've always preferred bikes with nothing more than a half-fairing because they do seem more stable in crosswinds and around semis.

[Kev m]

Yeah Kev,

I've always preferred bikes with nothing more than a half-fairing because they do seem more stable in crosswinds and around semis.

So a Breva MAY BE more stable than a Norge in the same situation, and MAYBE a Stelvio too for that same reason.

Though like I said, both my Breva and R1100RS were worse in crosswinds than say my Sporty or RK...so I imagine a Cali 1400 would be better still than both the Norge or Stelvio.

Don't know which is a big enough a difference for the OP to care.

[canuguzzi]

Jeff, sorry to hear about your experience with the Norge. I just have to say that perhaps your Norge simply isn't set up properly. I am 5'10" with a 32 inseam and about 165 pounds.

An interesting read on riding styles, especially the begging puppy puppy dog style.

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2737

My 2013 Norge is as stable as a rock at any speed I can manage to ride which is anywhere from out of the driveway to 90+ sustained. I generally ride with side bags and the tail trunk on and at moderate speeds of 65-80 on any road it feels as though the tires are on velcro. I am comparing it to A Triumph Trophy 1200, Honda ST1100, Suzuki V-Strom DL1000 and the old V65 Sabre which was about as stable as the Rock of Gibraltar.

If your Norge is unstable at 70-80 which is a sweet spot for the Norge, something just has to be wrong in the setup.

Side wind buffeting is a problem on full fairing bikes no matter who makes them and the higher you sit up the worse it is. The more area you present to the wind, the worse it gets.

Try the FJR as it sits decently low to the ground. Be prepared for a reach to the bars though. With a 31" inseam, you will probably find any ADV style bike far taller than is comfortable. With low seats you really sit in them more than the Norge and moving around while riding might be a real challenge.

The begging puppy riding position of a lot of ADV style bikes seems like it is comfortable and while some riders can go for lots of miles in that position, it can really do a number on your back after a while as all your weight in on your butt instead of your thighs.

Good luck with your search.

[Madtownguzzi]

Before you give up on the Norge I would check into an after market windshield and have the fork neck bearings checked for proper adjustment. Hopefully some Norge owners will give some suggestions on windshields.   

[canuguzzi]

You mentioned you ride in the rain. Are your riding clothes very loose fitting? I ask because I once rode with a rather baggy fitting pair of pants and jacket and every time a gust of wind hit me, it felt like I was a sail going for the big lean.

If you ride with your knees and elbows splayed out that will also affect stability int he wind. Sometimes the riding style can really affect ride quality.

Cal Sci has a variety of windscreens in different height but in general, the bigger the windscreen, the more there is to catch wind too.

One more thing. Some helmets will bounce your head all over the place when they catch wind. Don't underestimate the effect that this can have on how stable the bike feels. The bike follows the path of vision and if your head is getting pushed around, the bike might be following.

[LowRyter]

comfort is subjective but I didn't find the bike unstable. 

[PJPR01]

Corbin seat makes a MASSIVE difference in comfort.

Either a shorter or taller windscreen will also have a significant improvement in the buffeting.  I'm right at the same height / inseam as you are and had to change both of these items on my Norge to get comfortable.  Many days of 300-500 miles with no problems once these items were in place.  Also a good set of earplugs...

I do think that for those of us in this height, the stock windscreen with the inwardly tapering shape is very badly designed - looks nice, but functionally inefficient.  I'm running a Cal Sci Tinted Shorty and love it, and even the Cal - Sci medium is even more protection and provides that quiet pocket to ride in...I just don't like the way it looks...too tall for my taste.

Baggy clothing - if that's catching wind, could blow you around also...

[biking sailor]

The Breva, Sport, and Norge should be very stable and planted at highway speeds.  Gotta be something wrong.

Since you stated it smoothed back out at 90, I would suggest you first confirm tire pressure (front and back), then if that was OK, re-seat the forks and axle.  To do that, simply  loosen the front axle nut and the pinch bolts slightly, barely looser that finger tight.  Then get on the bike and roll it forward and backward hitting the front brake hard to compress or extend the suspension.  After several times, gently get off the bike without letting the forks/handbars move to the side and go through a proper torque progression on the axle and pinch bolts.  Ride the bike and see if it has settled down in the unstable speed range.

[JeffOlson]

I do have a few helpers on the comfort front: a larger Agostini touring screen, which looks exactly like the stock screen except it is a few inches taller and and a few inches wider (it helps a great deal on the freeway); lowering foot pegs and toe pegs from Knight Design; and the Airhawk R inflatable seat cushion. They are all helpful.

However, I am not talking about short-trip comfort. The Norge is great for an hour or two and 100 miles or so. It is longer trips that are a pain. I would like to travel from Hubbard, Oregon to Olympia, Washington, up I-5, non-stop and in comfort. From one point to the other, it is about 150 miles and nearly three hours of riding. The last third is the painful part. I really wish I could stand up while riding; that would help, but on the Norge I am out over the front of the windscreen when I do that.

As far as instability goes, I wonder if it is due to riding solo with the top case. In any event, it is just between about 70 and 90 miles per hour, on the freeway, with semis and sleds all around... The bouncing around at freeway speeds contributes to my exhaustion.

I am getting older (I'm 57 now), but I'm in pretty good shape for my age (and in much better shape than I was 10 years ago before I started running and dropped 50 pounds), so I don't think it is an issue of weakness or frail health.

I keep thinking of my now-departed Ducati ST2. That bike was stable. Not much wind or weather protection, but it was as stable as anything I have ridden...

[PJPR01]

I've never used a seat cushion, but I can't imagine it would be superior to a full custom seat - it makes a world of difference, the stock seat would put me to sleep after 100 miles and the Corbin is pure luxury seating by comparison...all day long riding. 

When you say you stand to stretch and end up in front of the windscreen, you have to be leaning WAY forward to do so or that windscreen is tilted way back.

It could be the rear box, but I have a couple friends riding their Norges here with just the top box and no sidebags and they don't complain about buffeting at all.

The other item to consider is what kind of clothing you are wearing...at the risk of delving into personal dress code, long trips with the proper undergarments (LD comfort for example), with no seams can really help to prevent numbness as well.

Ear plugs...I find that helps a lot to minimize mental and physical exhaustion...especi ally if you are getting buffeting.

[JeffOlson]

^ A new Corbin seat might indeed be the ticket to greater comfort. Regarding the buffeting, I think it is due to the cars and trucks around me; I do not notice it nearly as much when I am the only vehicle on the road. The leaning forward simply happens when I stand because the handle bars are not high enough (or my arms are too short!).

[rocker59]

I am not talking about short-trip comfort...

From one point to the other, it is about 150 miles and nearly three hours of riding. The last third is the painful part.

Brother, 150 miles IS a short trip.  That's two hours on the interstate.  If you can't be comfortable on the Norge for that with an Air Hawk, a tall windscreen, and lowering pegs, I don't know what to think.  Or, what to recommend.

I keep thinking of my now-departed Ducati ST2. That bike was stable. Not much wind or weather protection, but it was as stable as anything I have ridden...

The Ducati STs were THE SPORT-tourers.  Fine motorcycles.  I spent a lot of time on an ST2 and loved it.  Later, I ended up with the next closest thing, the Guzzi V11 LeMans.

[ohiorider]

Cannot speak for your issues with the Norge, but I've found my 2008 1200 Sport (essentially same bike with bikini fairing and somewhat more compliant suspension with 2v engine) to be a mile eater  ............. WHEN ................ I swap out the stock saddle for the Corbin.  I was fortunate to find a seller of a barely used Corbin that has 'Norge' printed in permanent marker on the underside seat pan.  I keep the Corbin for traveling, preferring the stock saddle with its lovely color-matched cowl for around-town riding.

I also swapped out the stock foot pegs for some adjustable ones that allowed me to pivot them forward and slightly lower.

The stock bars on the Sport were painful, so a Mana bar helped loads.  It's lower than your Norge bar, but higher and more to the rear than the stock torture rack!

As others have posted, it may be the full fairing on the Norge that is giving you the impression of instability, perhaps due to side winds or turbulence from 18 wheelers.  I've always preferred small bikini style, or no fairing at all, even on road going machines.

Bob

[balvenie]

My Cali was unstable at high speed. Changeing direction gave it the shakes. Is that the kind of instability you are talking about? Heavier fork springs made all the difference but I don't understand why yours is the only Norge with a problem. Any cupping in the tread of the front tyre? Mine was worn that way and would not take fast bends over bumps without shaking the front end.

[Bill Hagan]

All good points from other responders.

I'll avoid the saddle discussion because that's never been an issue for me on any motorcycle.  Dead butt, I suppose.   

Seriously, at my age, I hurt most everywhere all the time, so I just grin & bear it as best I can ... and pour a finger or three that night. 

But -- so to speak -- wondering if you are speaking of buffeting while riding with a top case.

I rarely ride the slab, but have to admit that while I've always found my Norge to be a model of composure under all sort of conditions of roads, speeds, wind, traffic, etc., I do note some unpleasant experiences when on the slab at legal-plus speeds WHEN THE TOP CASE IS MOUNTED.

Off?  Nada.

So, FWIW, there you go.

At risk of sounding -- but truly not meaning to be an asshat  -- have you considered a Goldwing?

Bill

[rocker59]

After the top box weaving comments, I guess I would suggest ditching the top box for the high speed commutes and see how it does.

[Gliderjohn]

Something is not quite right. I have a 2011 8V. I am about 170lbs with gear and 5'10" and 32" inseam. Mine is totally stock but with the top box. I still am using the factory suspension settings. The only feelings of instability and I emphasis "feeling" over reality is in the wake of a semi truck or strong crosswinds. Otherwise the bike is rock solid and comfortable and I usually cruise in the 70-85mph range but have had it up to 140mph indicated with bags and trunk and it was rock solid, like I was doing 70. YMMV apparently.
GliderJohn

[PeteS]

[quote author=Bill Hagan link=topic=76876.msg1208962#msg1208962 date=143389158

So, FWIW, there you go.

At risk of sounding -- but truly not meaning to be an asshat  -- have you considered a Goldwing?

Bill
[/quote]

FWIW I have a Goldwing and didn't find it comfortable stock. First off there are no adjustments in the bars nor footpegs. The stock seat is big but soft and in a few hours it feels like you're sitting on the seatpan.
Changing the seat to one that is higher and further back helped a lot but this bike is still not as comfortable for me as my KLR with a flat seat. Body position is the key. The KLR is near perfect for me, the Goldwing, not so much. If it wasn't for the fact that it works best for my wife It would have down the road years ago.

[Kev m]

I wonder if your riding position and the position of the bars have an effect on the "stability".

I ask because I just made an almost round trip 300 mile ride on Saturday to and from a service for a friend that was the first time I'd done so (a distance over a local 100 miles) since replacing the bars on the Sportster last month.

What I found was that I love the new bars, but they are a little lower and wider and make me a little susceptible to a SLIGHT high speed (80mph-ish) that wasn't there before on with the otherwise exact same set-up but slightly higher bars with more pullback.

I'd previously noticed when testing these bars that the bike feels a little more nimble (because of more leverage), but also hit one bump mid-corner that gave me a slight wobble when there wasn't one before.

I diagnosed both conditions as ME putting too much pressure on the bars in those situations. Actually at high speed if I just took ONE hand off the bars, it pretty much stopped because I wasn't fighting myself it that makes any sense.

FWIW I had no problems with a luggage and/or topcase solo on a Breva, and didn't really ever have problems with turbulence weaving the bike...just full on cross-winds could send me across the lane.

[charlie b]

It would help to know what you are comparing it to.

A pure sport bike is the most stable in crosswinds and a naked std or sport is a close second.  Just aerodynamics.  You lean forward on these bikes for a smaller frontal cross section and there is nothing sticking up to act like a 'sail' or 'fin'.  FWIW, my brother has a GS and 'fights' crosswinds and headwinds, even with an aftermarket larger windscreen.

Fully faired bikes do have places where they tend to 'wander' or 'wobble' when in the presence of truck turbulence or certain crosswinds.  On mine I find that some pickup trucks create a more disturbing wake than semi's.

The tradeoff for a fully faired bike means you don't have to be blasted by the wind (or rain) all day.  So, you trade a little 'wobble' at times for less buffeting the rest of the time.  I like that tradeoff.  Some do not.

Seats are another thing.  If yours hurts, change it.  Find one that is comfortable.  On one of my earlier bikes I adapted a Gold Wing seat (back in the 80's).  On my more recent Honda I had a Russell Day Long.  That thing was more comfortable than my car.  I modified my current one and it is OK.  But, it needs another tweak to make it perfect.  You should be able to sit on the seat all day without any more discomfort than sitting in your car all day.

If your bike is 'unstable' when running by yourself on an open, flat road, then I think you have a problem with your bike.

[Slygrin]

At risk of sounding -- but truly not meaning to be an asshat  -- have you considered a Goldwing?

Bill

I bought my Goldwing in '12. I love it, and more importantly the wife loves it. She now suggests we go for a ride almost as often as I do. I did have a custom seat done and a few other farkles. It is surprisingly nimble for a 900+ pound bike. I still love my Guzzi and will always have one in the garage, but it has been retired from 2up rides. There is no bike out there that will be the best for everyone. All you can do is try to find one that does what you want it to do. What works for us might/does make others cringe and shake their heads.

[Jim Rich]

I would dump the thing and get a Cadillac.

[Chuck in Indiana]

My 2014 Norge is lot of fun, but it is not very comfortable after 100 miles or so, and it is pretty unstable above 65 miles per hour

Sorry, but it is *not* the bike. The Norge is extremely stable at any speed I've seen. I'm guessing that you are holding on to the bars. At speed, they are only good as a place to hang the controls. The machine is stable unless you mess with it. Like an airplane, a *very* light touch is all that is required. A "death grip" will cause any motorcycle to move around as you are hit by wind gusts.
The riding position? Yes. The Norge locks you into one position. Occasionally raising out of the seat a little helps. I found that after around 450 miles, I had to stand up for a bit. <shrug>