I HAVE COMPLAINTS!

[Guzzistajohn]

Complain if you like, but Moto Guzzi will always be a small production niche bike.  If they sh!t them out like Honda does, they would just be another Honda.  No, thank you.

You do have valid complaints, but I can envision dudes sitting around 30 years ago bitching about Guzzis in the same way.....

Sorry, 30 years ago we were riding the crap out of our Tonti frame Guzzi's 'cause we didn't have the internut to sit around and complain on. Now and then we would check the mailbox to see if that old dude from Kansas had sent us a newsletter so we MIGHT be able to plan a rally trip. THEN, we would start a campfire and bitch up a storm!

[canuguzzi]

It always happens. Parts shortages, reliability issues, tired designs get turned into character.

Much of his complaint is the result of MG knowing that it can count on a small number of people willing to look at sometimes outright laziness as something to covet and claim gives the bike character.

Sending a bike out of the factory that has loose fasteners, inadequate oil levels, misaligned and impossible to fit plastics and f'ed up adjustments for lack of maybe an extra ten minutes of time or some pride in manufacture isn't character, it is lazy and you can get that anywhere for free.

Character is good functioning, performance that is steady , the joy of knowing something isn't falling off today and all that.

Shitty assembly and inattention to detail is that, nothing more. It isn't character.

Heard all over for old cars, it has character, usually meaning it is a POS and he has one because most others are smart enough to realize it stay away from it.

MG isn't a POS by any means but there is nearly zero pride in manufacture or assembly. It isn't funny that jokes are made of Luigi or Guido, it is really quite sad.

[Kev m]

It always happens. Parts shortages, reliability issues, tired designs get turned into character.

Much of his complaint is the result of MG knowing that it can count on a small number of people willing to look at sometimes outright laziness as something to covet and claim gives the bike character.

Sending a bike out of the factory that has loose fasteners, inadequate oil levels, misaligned and impossible to fit plastics and f'ed up adjustments for lack of maybe an extra ten minutes of time or some pride in manufacture isn't character, it is lazy and you can get that anywhere for free.

<snip>

Heard all over for old cars, it has character, usually meaning it is a POS and he has one because most others are smart enough to realize it stay away from it.

MG isn't a POS by any means but there is nearly zero pride in manufacture or assembly. It isn't funny that jokes are made of Luigi or Guido, it is really quite sad.

That's complete and utter BS to me.

I doubt very much that many (if any) here are telling about those things when we day MGs have character.

When I use that term it means:

* unique - unlike the mass market, limit production.
* aesthetically pleasing
* feels alive, something that I can connect with going down the road, not so perfectly smooth in motor or suspension to lull me to sleep or forget I'm on a motor bike. .


It does not mean sub par quality or assembly, nor does it mean a lack of replacement parts or accessories, though that sometimes is an unfortunate side effect of the first point.

[bpreynolds]

there is nearly zero pride in manufacture or assembly. It isn't funny that jokes are made of Luigi or Guido, it is really quite sad.

I've purchased two new Guzzis in the last year and a half.  I couldn't disagree with you more.  Zero problems, zero issues.  Even further, I've driven Guzzis about 80k miles and probably 4x the distance I have any of the other brands I've owned:  Ducatis, Triumphs, Kawi, Honda.  Long term report for the Guzzis far better than any of those others.  I'm just one guy and one guy's opinion.  But so is yours    Funny how different our opinions are on this issue. 

[canuguzzi]

That's complete and utter BS to me.

I doubt very much that many (if any) here are telling about those things when we day MGs have character.

When I use that term it means:

* unique - unlike the mass market, limit production.
* aesthetically pleasing
* feels alive, something that I can connect with going dorm the road, not so perfectly smooth in motor or suspension to lull me to sleep or forget I'm on a motor bike. .


It does not mean sub par quality or assembly, nor does it mean a lack of replacement parts or accessories, though that sometimes is an unfortunate side effect of the first point.

About every day, it is about having to deal with those things to get character. Not true. A bike having character does not mean having to accept all the other nonsense, and proof positive is the number of people who buy something else or try MG and move on after a short time.

You're saying a bike can't have character unless it also has the BS? MG can't instill some pride in manufacturing and assembly? Sorry, it doesn't have to be that way and while some like the small numbers it doesn't speak well of the brand. It could be better, much better and the reason it isn't is because a few think in order for anbike to have the nice parts of character it means the BS has to be part of it. Maybe for some.

Tell the guy sitting alongside the road because the factory is too lazy to wire the bike right about character. Then tell those riding past and enjoying the ride instead of fiddling with some.kludge.

[Chuck in Indiana]

* feels alive, something that I can connect with going dorm the road,

Absolutely. That's the Guzzi character. (besides the one in the drivers seat..) 
And, seriously, Norge Pilot.. quality control at Guzzi is *much* better than it used to be. I've said more than once that the only reason they assembled the Centauros was to make sure you got all the parts..

[blackcat]

Absolutely. That's the Guzzi character. (besides the one in the drivers seat..) 
And, seriously, Norge Pilot.. quality control at Guzzi is *much* better than it used to be. I've said more than once that the only reason they assembled the Centauros was to make sure you got all the parts..

 

[Lannis]

Absolutely. That's the Guzzi character. (besides the one in the drivers seat..) 
And, seriously, Norge Pilot.. quality control at Guzzi is *much* better than it used to be. I've said more than once that the only reason they assembled the Centauros was to make sure you got all the parts..

Well, maybe it's because we talk about it all the time, but there have been quite a few design/assembly (I don't care which, they're responsible for all of it) glitches on my own "I'm no longer the problem" Guzzi:

1) Cam not properly hardened, replaced
2) No headlight relays - that's 1950's era Lucas stuff there.
3) Mirrors fell apart on everyone's Stelvios
4) Spark plug boots failed on everyone's Stelvios
5) Swingarm bearings not greased at factory
6) Tappets not properly heat-treated, need replacing
7) Headlight reflectors slowly melting using stock headlight bulbs

I don't know if this is all BS, or Character, or Normal Modern Motorcycle Stuff, or if it happens on everyone's Hondas and HDs, but it's a pain in the rear to pay the asking new-bike price and find this stuff going on .....

Lannis

[Kev m]

You're saying a bike can't have character unless it also has the BS?

No I'm not saying that.

I'm saying exactly the opposite.

I'm saying that MG HAS character for the reasons I stated.

I'm saying that I don't excuse poor quality or workmanship, nor do I call it "character".

I'll say that I generally don't think MG HAS poor quality or workmanship, though they are sometimes caught with their pants down on both.

When they are I'm not happy and I don't apologize for them.

It's one of the reasons their products aren't in the majority in my garage.

[bacongrease]

I am tired of buying jeans, $40 Levis, $20 Sams/Walmart, that pull the belt loops out after a couple of washes and wears.

WTF?

 Return to any store that sells Levis..Free exchange.

[elvisboy77]

Valid how?  The dude's on the wrong bike.  Not a criticism of him - we each like what we like, eh? - but he's on the wrong bike.

For what he wants, Guzzi can't deliver.  Reference Honda comment.  I think Guzzi is awesome and yes, they can be slow on some things but that is part of the deal.  It was not my intent to criticize Guzzi.

[Arizona Wayne]

OOOO!  I got one!

Camera filters are measured in "stops" of light where one stop = .5 light transmission.  You can't get to zero, although you can find a point of a curve that approaches zero.
Window tint -- also essentially an optical filter -- is measured as a percent of transparent.  It's a straight line, not a curve.  So zero (complete opacity) is possible.

I want a sheet of window tint the same a a 3-stop filter.  I don't know what to spec.

I remember a Canon rangefinder camera that had a .95 setting on it compared to my Nikon F w/1.4 setting in `68.

[Arizona Wayne]

I am tired of buying jeans, $40 Levis, $20 Sams/Walmart, that pull the belt loops out after a couple of washes and wears.

WTF?

I've had some $12 Sam's jeans do that......and found out it was really our Chihuahua dog doing it!      You have a dog?

[rodekyll]

Thats easy, neutral density 0.9. Comes in gels up to 40" wide.

0.9ND.

I need a square foot.

[edit]

How did you arrive at that value for the gel?

[elvisboy77]

Sorry, 30 years ago we were riding the crap out of our Tonti frame Guzzi's 'cause we didn't have the internut to sit around and complain on. Now and then we would check the mailbox to see if that old dude from Kansas had sent us a newsletter so we MIGHT be able to plan a rally trip. THEN, we would start a campfire and bitch up a storm!

Nailed it!!

[MGPilot]

You certainly never heard me equating poor tolerances or workmanship with character.

[Steph]

25 odd years ago when I got into Guzzis with my V50II, I was dreaming about owning LeMans. It was a normal wanting aspiration.
Today, someone that starts out in a new V7, the rest of the Guzzi big block line-up looks foreign to them.

I doubt many V7 owners would then want go for a Guzzi Dorsoduro look alike.

[HDGoose]

Complain if you like, but Moto Guzzi will always be a small production niche bike.  If they sh!t them out like Honda does, they would just be another Honda.  No, thank you.

You do have valid complaints, but I can envision dudes sitting around 30 years ago bitching about Guzzis in the same way.....

Guzzi -  going out of business since 1921.

I have not much new in Guzzi complaints since I 'discovered' them in 1987.

[stomatomoto]

Stom, couple of random thoughts.

1. - most important thought. Follow your bliss. Bikes are about passion, NOT LOGIC. Pursue em with logic and either you'll always find you were wrong, or you'll find you're really boring. But it's a journey we each have to take for ourselves.

2. I took the journey over the past few decades and I've been lucky to dabble in a ton of bikes (press, demo, loaners) that I didn't have to buy. You see, after riding the top dogs, and owning better performers, I still turn to the most simple and slowest bike in my fleet (and in the last year sold the fastest).  Your journey just might lead you back here, but it may not).

3. Don't use Aprilia as an example if you're going to complain about lack of variety/support/quickness of parts and accessories.

4. BMW is often the exact opposite of Guzzi, design and complexity for the sake of itself as opposed to the beauty of simplicity in design.

Don't get me wrong, I CAN enjoy both. I'm equally attracted to say the WRX STI and the Jeep Wrangler... Guess which one I just ordered from the factory?

Anyway, best of luck with your journey, have fun and most of all RIDE SAFE!

Thanks for the well-wishes Kev, you've always been a paragon of benevolent vibes!

1. That's the thing: I chose the V7 because I thought it was "safe". I test rode the Ducati Scrambler, and I stayed away from it because it was too much bike for a first ride ever. In hindsight, still probably a smart decision, plus apparently you need to be super rich to own one because of a valve-train design from a pre-metallurgic era? I went from "just the right amount of bike" to "definitely not enough bike" way too fast with this, but that's a separate issue from the point of this post.

2. That would be awesome--all I've got now is places willing to let me do test rides. :/

3. Good point, but that was more in reference to the joy of riding the thing, not ownership--I've been cautioned in the past about them having exact same supply line issues as MG.

4. Engineering is about function and integrity over a range of conditions, some ranges more narrow than others. It seems like both the industry and the market tend to point to BMW as one of the best in a couple classes, and I think that's why. But what do I know! Which is the bike that does it all and for the right price and is highly supported? WHICH IS PEAK MOTORCYCLE?! The question that burns my soul at the moment...

Thanks again, and will do!

[stomatomoto]

That's complete and utter BS to me.

I doubt very much that many (if any) here are telling about those things when we day MGs have character.

When I use that term it means:

* unique - unlike the mass market, limit production.
* aesthetically pleasing
* feels alive, something that I can connect with going down the road, not so perfectly smooth in motor or suspension to lull me to sleep or forget I'm on a motor bike. .


It does not mean sub par quality or assembly, nor does it mean a lack of replacement parts or accessories, though that sometimes is an unfortunate side effect of the first point.

I think my argument here is that this is a really big problem with MG for me, and that it seems like it's less of a side effect and more of an equation balancing component in the world of tradeoffs that is modern design and engineering.

Let me remind y'all that in the 3 months and 1,400 miles I've owned this thing I've been to the dealer twice with the intention of fixing a faulty ECU map that shipped from the manufacturer. Not saying that's an MG-only problem either, just look at the KTM 390 Duke that I narrowly avoided getting and their horrible fan shroud situation. But yeah, that's kind of part of it for sure.

[Kev m]

Stom,

Two more thoughts...

* not enough bike - respectfully, I doubt it. If you're not scraping in a bunch of curves (while taking the right lines and using body English) then you still have more bike than you are capable of using. Having more power for faster straight line acceleration takes no skill. That's part of my story about the journey. You might be a prodigy and that's cool. Or maybe you want more power for that straight line acceleration and that's cool too, but that doesn't mean your skills out grew the smallblock. And if that's true, cool, you're in fine company. Ic suspect most people's skills never do.

* trips to dealer. That sucks, but that's not necessarily an indication of poor quality by the brand. Sometimes that's just how the ball bounces. My bike want seen by a dealer for the first 10k miles, and then only to try the reflashed map to possibly improve the cold start operation, but even without that the bike was great once warmed. It was hardly an issue, even if a bit odd and occasionally annoying.

Don't assume that can't happen with a BMW. Hell, I've got a number of FORMER BMW riding friends who abandoned the brand after MUCH worse experiences with new bikes.

That said... Follow your bliss!

[elvisboy77]

Good luck, I think you should get the BMW, I hope that it is a good fit for you.  I have ridden a few and it was not my thing but a lot of folks like them, maybe you will too!

[rocker59]

MG isn't a POS by any means but there is nearly zero pride in manufacture or assembly. It isn't funny that jokes are made of Luigi or Guido, it is really quite sad.

Zero Pride in Manufacture?  Are you kidding?  You really need to visit Mandello.  Your eyes will be opened wide.

[krglorioso]

Or worst of all - the PEANUT ration in modern "Cracker Jacks"!   PaTHETic .....

Lannis

Lannis, I don't mean to butt in where I shouldn't, but your diet is ...well...a bit insufficient to sustain life.

FWIW.

Ralph

[ajwood]

My dealer says that the mean-cold-start issue is because they designed the new engine around a single induction system with a single injector into both cylinders. That said, I keep my hand on the throttle at startup to keep it going long enough to ride off so it will really warm up. 

When I owned a 2010 V7 Classic, I did a Youtube video of it starting up after a frosty 15 degree night in a motel parking lot far from home. It started right up and it impressed many viewers. My new 2015 V7 Stone needs a helping hand and there isn't any Youtube of it by any rider. Maybe that's what Guzzi needs to see from Italy - Youtube demos of the newest V7 that had saved MG $200 in parts in order to get it to basically run, multiplied by 50,000 times into the throttle hands of riders that make decisions about what motorcycle gets replaced by which other motorcycle.

But get the V7S warmed up and it restores my confidence in MG engineering.

My dealer had me briefly crack open the gas cap on shutdown and again on startup to alleviate pressure differences with the tank and the vapor recirculation canister. Also, gas octane under 91 did better on starts.
Maybe eliminating the canister altogether gets the engine to perform more like its original design.

[Kev m]

Either you misunderstand your dealer or he's an idiot. There's obviously a separate injector for each cylinder, just like there was with the dual throttle body motor.

The EVAP canister is not the issue, as I've tried cold starts with the canister output line clamped off. Same issue.

To be clear, my 2013 Stone has NO problem starting. It does so every time without fail. It only stumbles or dies under throttle/load too soon afterwards.

[Guido Valvole]

Air-cooled things still need warmup... My 35 +/- year old smallblocks start up readily without choke if it's over 80 degrees out. When cold, don't plan on going anywhere too soon.

AZ Wayne -- the Canon 0.95 was a 60s TV lens (high resolution not necessary) modified for the Canon RF cameras. Highly collectible but not all that useful. Nikon F 50/1.4 much better. Only recently did the Germans (Leica) go over the f1.0 mark with the 50/0.95 Noctilux - for upwards of $10k. More than a Guzzi! Smallblock anyway 
cr

[fotoguzzi]

   order to get it to basically run, multiplied by 50,000 times into the throttle hands of riders that make decisions about what motorcycle gets replaced by which other motorcycle.

 

they've sold fifty thousand v7's?

[Kev m]

Air-cooled things still need warmup... My 35 +/- year old smallblocks start up readily without choke if it's over 80 degrees out. When cold, don't plan on going anywhere too soon.

..Just to keep it real, our Harley, and our Ducati can pull away without a stumble within seconds of startup. So could my Jackal and Breva 1100, my EFI EVO RK, my R1100RS, Etc. The V7 is a relative embarrassment comparatively.

[Farmer Dan]

This thread makes me glad I have a 43 year old Eldorado for my every day bike.