Saw the new Triumphs today. Meh.

[Sheepdog]

I think my preference for the 360 engine's sound is rooted in my time amongst Meriden Triumphs. I consider the change to 270 engines akin to Harley Davidson going to a 180 degree format. It just doesn't sound like a Bonneville...

[DaSwami]

I think they went the way of 270 crank because of the success of the Scrambler.  They figured they couldn't lose doing it.

[cruzziguzzi]

I think my preference for the 360 engine's sound is rooted in my time amongst Meriden Triumphs. I consider the change to 270 engines akin to Harley Davidson going to a 180 degree format. It just doesn't sound like a Bonneville...

270 degree - or to some people 90 degree - cranks in Brit-twins have a, longer than the current Scrambler, history.

They've been limited manufacturer offerings, re-welds and heat-twisted mods for some time.

Sometimes it was for tractability advantages, sometimes for the inherently "smoother" operation and sometimes likely, just 'cause.

In any case, I doubt significant emphasis was place upon mere exhaust note though that would be a much more noticeable benefit to the curbside appeal crowd.


Todd.

[leafman60]

Leafman, if you are up around DeKalb County I will let you ride my T120 around Little River Canyon.

Thank you, much.  I'm way down on the gulf coast.  Little River is a great riding place. Been there many times.

[Shorty]

I rode my 2001 Bonneville to the local Triumph/Guzzi dealer today. He has a couple  Street Twins and T120s on display. Also the other new Triumphs in the lineup. After looking at the more modern bikes available, I came to the conclusion that the non Bonneville bikes were either too tall or too "Insect looking" to appeal to me. The Street Twins had nice mag wheels, but only single disks front and rear. I much preferred the T120s, with triple disks, but they seem to only come with spoke wheels. I really like the Bonneville black. It seems a little more compact than my 2001. I liked the overall look, and a few of the features stood out. The fuel injectors are made to resemble Amal monoblock carbs, complete with the ring that held on the top of the "carb".Some may cry foul but to me it evoked memories of my older 60s triumphs. The front fender brackets are flat on the top side of the fender sheetmetal, and are engraved (stamped) with the Triumph logo. The spark plugs are now much easier to get to, and the radiator did not look ungainly to me. The turn signals are compact and look aftermarket. The lights front and rear also hint of Britbikes past.There was no Thruxton on hand, nor any of the new small block Guzzi variants on hand. If the new Bonnies run as good as they look, all will be well. It did not bother me in the least, however,  that my dinosaur Bonnies were British made, and the new ones are "ThaiRumphs"

[bpreynolds]

I rode my 2001 Bonneville to the local Triumph/Guzzi dealer today.

It did not bother me in the least, however,  that my dinosaur Bonnies were British made, and the new ones are "ThaiRumphs"

In my eyes, my bud's 2001 Bonnie is quite sharp and looks a lot more appealing to me visually than the new Street Twin. 

[fossil]

"I believe "sound" has a lot to do with it. The 270 exhaust note is far more "exotic" than the 360's plodding blahhhh."

Have you ever heard a Norton Commando with Roadster pipes?

[leafman60]

"I believe "sound" has a lot to do with it. The 270 exhaust note is far more "exotic" than the 360's plodding blahhhh."

Have you ever heard a Norton Commando with Roadster pipes?

Yes, that lumpy cadence and sound.  Like a 90 degree VTwin.

[Kev m]

I still haven't seen the new Triumphs in person yet.

But I saw the new Harley Roadster today - LOVE IT!

[kingoffleece]

I've had 6 V-twins and 2 270 degree crank bikes and never confused the sound of one for the other.

[ohiorider]

I still haven't seen the new Triumphs in person yet.

But I saw the new Harley Roadster today - LOVE IT!

HD did a nice job on this one.  Kev - MSRP?  And HP?  It is the stock 1200cc engine, isn't it?  What, maybe 60-65hp and a lot of bottom end torque?

Bob

[Kev m]

HD did a nice job on this one.  Kev - MSRP?  And HP?  It is the stock 1200cc engine, isn't it?  What, maybe 60-65hp and a lot of bottom end torque?

Bob

MSRP $11.2k but add $~1k more if you want ABS/security-keyless ignition

Stock 1200 motor, makes about 60-65 rwhp/70 ft lbs torque

A set of mild mufflers should get you 70/75, a full stage 1 with remap should be in the 80's for both.

Yeah, I think it's a nice one. Maybe even nicer than the XR/XRX to me.

[Cool Runnings]

Only Harley is able to get away with this crazy pricing.

FYI: Picked up a new Norge 8V for 12k.

[Kev m]

Only Harley is able to get away with this crazy pricing.

FYI: Picked up a new Norge 8V for 12k.

That's a silly comparison. The Norge MSRP is $16.2k.

Let's compare apples with apples.

And even if you can get a deeper discount on one brand, that likely just means it depreciates faster down the road.

[drlapo]

How much extra for a gas tank that fits on the sportster?

[yrunvs]

I still haven't seen the new Triumphs in person yet.

But I saw the new Harley Roadster today - LOVE IT!

Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder.

[Penderic]

Spring time!

[tazio]

That's a silly comparison. The Norge MSRP is $16.2k.

Let's compare apples with apples.

And even if you can get a deeper discount on one brand, that likely just means it depreciates faster down the road.

Kev, name another apple. Griso maybe?
Naked roadster,elemental V-twin.
Guess there's the added cost of a shaft drive system to offset MSRP.
Horsepower and torque ? Ouch!
Personally, resale value has never factored into my motorcycle purchases (although a nice bonus !)
Different customers I'd reckon, and I thoroughly enjoyed my sporty all those years ago...(all those lbs.ago).
The mighty Griso is a rangey beast to the Sporty's compact muscular stance.
Well, at the end of the day maybe apples to oranges here too. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

As much as I'd like to like the Sporty, I just can't. I really like the engines, and after all.. to me a motorcycle is all about the engine.
But.
My feet in front of me and leaning forward like that? Nope. Won't happen. The ergos are just all wrong for me. If you like it.. more power to you.  Maybe if my feet were sort of behind me? <scratching head>

[jetmechmarty]

As much as I'd like to like the Sporty, I just can't. I really like the engines, and after all.. to me a motorcycle is all about the engine.
But.
My feet in front of me and leaning forward like that? Nope. Won't happen. The ergos are just all wrong for me. If you like it.. more power to you.  Maybe if my feet were sort of behind me? <scratching head>

This is as far back as they ever dared put them.  Except for...

[tazio]

a little more daylight between MSRP of Sportster and Griso than I realized.
Although mine was 11,400 plus tax/tag/title etc.
Nice suspenders don't come cheap either.

[Shorty]

 I do like the look of a 1200R.............. ...................  

[bpreynolds]

Returning home from a ride last night on the Griso I am again reminded of how splendid a machine Guzzi could have made/could make if they stuck that 8V into a more retro styled package.   :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

Here they already have an air cooled engine generating more horsepower and torque than any of these new Triumphs.  And they already have a record of strong success with the V7 line. 

[Kev m]

READERS DIGEST VERSION - read bold

OK, good morning all. In the interest of discussion let me clarify, answer, and muse.

First let me say that I LOVE Guzzi, and I think the Griso is a sublime bike. As a matter of fact I do see a bit of similarity between the Griso experience and the Buell S3T and the late-model Harley XR/XRX. Riding each of those bikes was what actually prompted me to buy the Buell in the first place.

Alright, as I will address later in this post, I do realize there are not insignificant differences in the motors of these two bikes. But looking at the BIG picture (L4's, flat sixes, etc.) these air-cooled twins are more similar than not despite their differences.

THING IS, as much as I can enjoy this type of bike short time, I've repeatedly bought and then sold bikes with this particular riding position (feet under/behind me). As brilliant a motorcycle was my R1100RSa, my Breva 1100, or that Buell S3T, I simply prefer slightly different ergonomics and aesthetics.

That said:

Kev, name another apple. Griso maybe?
Naked roadster,elemental V-twin.
Guess there's the added cost of a shaft drive system to offset MSRP.
Horsepower and torque ? Ouch!
Personally, resale value has never factored into my motorcycle purchases (although a nice bonus !)
Different customers I'd reckon, and I thoroughly enjoyed my sporty all those years ago...(all those lbs.ago).
The mighty Griso is a rangey beast to the Sporty's compact muscular stance.
Well, at the end of the day maybe apples to oranges here too. 

When I said Apples-to-Apples I was simply addressing the singular issue of comparing MSRP to MSRP. Comparing MSRP to
"what one person negotiated" is like comparing Crankshaft HP to RWHP. They're not the same, and the comparison loses a lot of validity.

Now if we want to expand the conversation to include "value for the money" it gets difficult because VALUE varies with the buyer.

It doesn't matter to me that the Harley is $11.2k (or $12.2k with ABS/Security) and the Griso is $12.9k, because the Griso doesn't add up at the end of the day to be the bike I want.

I like both motors, but I actually think I prefer the Sportster motor to the 8V, it's a difference in how it makes power. I've never enjoyed higher rpm riding on any bike I've owned, except for the occasional WOT run. But that's not where I ride a bike, and the Sporty motors make more than enough when I do.

So what are the other differences?

TO ME:

I prefer the ergonomics of the Sportster (and this new one looks to fit very similar to my current one).
I prefer the maintenance (no valves to check).
I prefer the cast wheels.
I like the looks of both, but give a nod to the Sporty.
I like Shaft Drives and Belts, but since I don't ride any dirt or gravel, I actually think the Belt is less maintenance/cost/hassle over the life of the bike. Slight nod to the Sporty.

Now let me address other points you brought up.

HP/Torque:

Peak hp is not my concern. But IF it is YOUR concern. Then wouldn't my counter argument be that the Griso ($13k) or a Norge ($16.2k) makes no sense. A Ducati 1200 Monster ($13.5k) makes 127 rwhp / 82 ft. lbs. so it is to the Griso 8V what the Griso 8V is to the new Roadster in hp. Why stop there, a Yamaha FZ1 ($10.8k) makes 126 rwhp/ 65 ft. lbs. (and I'm sure Kawasaki or Triumph have contenders in that price range too). But obviously that's not the ultimate measure of a machine to you or me.

Resale value - I'm not sure how much I really think about this with a bike purchase. BUT I AM a bike HO, and I used to buy and sell bikes about every 2 years. On Harleys I don't think I've ever eaten more than about $2k in depreciation, which was nice. Now I've slowed down on that considerably and I'm currently trying to hold onto bikes much longer, so it's not a big deal. But it is nice to know they are MUCH easier to sell than a Guzzi in most cases.

But like you say, maybe they are apples and oranges too --- all based on those particular factors that you care about. I've got my list and I don't fault anyone for theirs.

Truthfully as I see this segment, the CHIEF competitor for the Sportster really remains the Bonneville...which is why I brought all this up in this thread.

a little more daylight between MSRP of Sportster and Griso than I realized.
Although mine was 11,400 plus tax/tag/title etc.
Nice suspenders don't come cheap either.

Ha ha--- I hear ya

As much as I'd like to like the Sporty, I just can't. I really like the engines, and after all.. to me a motorcycle is all about the engine.
But.
My feet in front of me and leaning forward like that? Nope. Won't happen. The ergos are just all wrong for me. If you like it.. more power to you.  Maybe if my feet were sort of behind me? <scratching head>

It's funny, but like I said earlier, I really like both engines. Roper will lose his mind, but having ridden both, put me squarely in the 1100 2V/cylinder Guzzi camp. I really would prefer that to the 8V. Maybe that's ONE of the reasons I went backwards from an 1100 CARC Big-Block to a 750cc small-block. I dunno. But I like the Sportster engine a lot so there's no problem there.

As for ergos. I was shocked how similar the new Roadster ergos are to my current Sportster. My feet are BARELY in front of me. It's VERY similar to how I sit on my V7... which is more foot rearward than I used to sit on my Jackal.

This is BARELY foot forward, maybe not even enough for longer rides (as my knee/leg cramps up a bit on the V7 on longer stints without stops).

<shrugs>

[JeffOlson]

To help re-rail this thread, I, too, saw the new Triumph Modern Classics in the flesh the other day. I thought they looked really good. I was able to sit on a silver Thurston R and a black T120. The Thruxton R seems very small but not horribly so. The T120 seems like it would be much more practical and comfortable, especially with a King & Queen seat and a windscreen installed.

As for whether they are "meh," beauty is indeed in the eye of the beer-holder. Personally, while sober, I think they look very good, even better than the outgoing Modern Classics. If I had had a lot of beer to drink, I might have made a deal on the Thruxton R. If I had had only some beer to drink, I might had made a deal on the T120 instead. 

[bpreynolds]

Even with "Retro" being less than an objective term, I just don't think the Griso even belongs in this discussion.  That's a good or bad thing depending on your slant. 

[jGuz]

I remember the first time I saw the new T120 in the flesh.  I came in thinking that it would be The Next Bike.  However, my first impression was...plastic.  So much plastic.

Long story short, I ended up buying an R NineT a few months later.  Much more expensive, but more power and better-looking IMO.

I think someone mentioned The Only Harley I Would Consider Owning (if it had ABS).

[tazio]

Kev, well thought out response.
Would have expected nothing less from you!
I have found in my advancing age and weight that a peg position further back
(within reason) allows me to put less pressure on the buttocks.
Interesting how these pressure points can effect one person so much differently than another..

[Kev m]

Kev, well thought out response.
Would have expected nothing less from you!
I have found in my advancing age and weight that a peg position further back
(within reason) allows me to put less pressure on the buttocks.
Interesting how these pressure points can effect one person so much differently than another..

Yeah it is funny.

I do better with a good seat and letting my butt take the weight, but I have to be careful with my legs.

I don't know if the phenomenon is related to age or my current state of training/working out, but over the last few years I've developed much less of a tolerance for sitting with my knees bent. The MORE bent, the less comfortable. Mostly one side (left), the knee cramps up and develops some muscle pain from the knee back upward toward my butt. Seems to be more pronounced if I've been running more in any given week or month than training in the martial arts. So I SUSPECT it's related to running, but I'm not positive.

I need to speak with a doctor or physical therapist and get some ideas to address it.

But the easy answer for motorcycles is to sit with my feet somewhat in front of me and better yet have multiple foot positions available (highway pegs, floorboards etc.) or in absence of multiple foot positions I simply need to stop and take more breaks.

[LowRyter]

I remember the first time I saw the new T120 in the flesh.  I came in thinking that it would be The Next Bike.  However, my first impression was...plastic.  So much plastic.

Long story short, I ended up buying an R NineT a few months later.  Much more expensive, but more power and better-looking IMO.

I think someone mentioned The Only Harley I Would Consider Owning (if it had ABS).

that one would be my first choice for a Sportster, maybe just a test ride