Tell me about riding with a child passenger.

[cappisj1]

Taken Probably 30 years ago with my dad. Spent a week out west every year sitting behind him, then riding behind when I turned 16. Been doing the same with my kids. Some beautiful memories in both cases. No issues yet. I do remember sleeping as a rider on those trips and my kids dose off sometimes too. But, that's my decision and chance I am willing to take I guess.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 Besides, Pirsig was crazy, certifiably crazy.

[Huzo]

  The key phrase in my post was "ride intelligently."  That means don't travel at the same speeds as a solo bike,  slow down ahead of turns and don't put yourself in situations where power out is your choice of options.
 Powering out will pull hard towards the sidecar, Braking hard will pull away from the sidecar , unless the sidecar has brakes.  On a solo bike, the phrase when in doubt power out, is what many go by.  On my sidecar rig I believe in ,
"When in doubt, wait it out."  Let the other vehicle pass in front of you even if you may be in the right of away.  The other vehicle doesn't give a rip if you are more vulnerable.   Many years ago ( 60s ) I remember reading that in England,
 sidecar machines paid the lowest insurance premiums of any motorcycles and I believe cars too.  Since they had a profit motive , they must have known something about Brit riders riding state of mind.

Ok Jim, I just meant that the question in the original post related to a guy with nothing like the skill you'd have after all those years and I sorta thought what would happen in an emergency and with a child aboard !!! Anyway thanks for your input, after all those years you'd be entitled to an informed opinion.

[pehayes]

and what makes you think they would just fall off of they feel asleep?

I dunno I guess my evidence on the latter point is all anecdotal, but I just don't see how it would happen.

/quote]

What makes me think such is having gone through a situation where I did have to ride one-handed while physically restraining a sleeping passenger.  Your evidence is anecdotal.  Mine is empirical.  I agree that I am presenting an induced risk by strapping the child to me.  I evaluate that as less risky than riding unstrapped and having them fall off when no other external incident is involved.  I evaluate that as less risky than strapping the child to the moto (which I have witnessed).  I surmise that the only thing less risky than my choice is to leave the child at home.  I'm not willing to go that route.  You study all the possible variables.  You evaluate risk/reward alternatives.   You make the choice which best suits your analysis.  YMMV.

The OP has asked a legitimate question about how and when to start riding with a child.  He has received a variety of answers from people with practical experience.  He now gets to digest and evaluate that spectrum of response and then make his own more-informed judgement of what  he feels is a prudent practice going forward for him and his child or grandchild.  Clearly, the need for strap restraint diminishes with advancing age and physical capability of the child.  Wait longer until you can trust them not to sleep?  Forget the passenger thing and wait until they are 16 and let them ride on their own?  Discourage them from riding ever?  It is all a matter of degree and one's personal evaluation.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[SaskMick]

Safest way is in a sidecar.

And the most fun too...

[oldbike54]

Besides, Pirsig was crazy, certifiably crazy.

 Well , he was married with children  Pirsig is certainly an interesting study in human nature and behavior , possessing an IQ of 170 , with a pronounced lack of social skills . Still , he managed fairly well , and his hands on approach to life was different than many intellectuals . Always found it interesting that after an aborted career in academia he made a living assembling foreign made products , like swing sets , then reversing the process , only to reassemble the swing set so he could write an understandable set of instructions in English . Seems that would make most folks a bit nuts, but he thrived while doing so . A friend of mine in Nacogdoches knew Pirsig from his days at the University of Chicago , he told me "we all knew Bob was strange, we just didn't know how strange he really was" 

 As a footnote , Pirsig is alive and well at the age of 88 , pretty amazing all things considered .

 Dusty

[Kev m]

and what makes you think they would just fall off of they feel asleep?

I dunno I guess my evidence on the latter point is all anecdotal, but I just don't see how it would happen.

What makes me think such is having gone through a situation where I did have to ride one-handed while physically restraining a sleeping passenger.

Thank you for the response.

Would you mind educating us with some more details of that incident?

[stevet]

Did it only ONCE w/my youngest, Joey.. took him to the Wi Guzzi rally.. several hours in the saddle both ways..He didn't complain but in hind sight it was kind of dangerous..

Hi Brad, was there something in particular that makes you think riding with Joey was dangerous?  How did you feel about it on the trip, and is your notion of danger a newer feeling, in retrospect?

How was Joey's experience on that trip?   Nervous, scared, excited, willing...?  He's looking genuinely happy in that photo.  How does he feel about the experience now that time has passed?  How old was he at the time of the trip?

Boy, I've seen enough of your videos that if I was a willing youngster I think I would have had a blast sitting behind you on the bike!

Thanks for bearing along with my questions.

Steve.

[fotoguzzi]

Hi Brad, was there something in particular that makes you think riding with Joey was dangerous?  How did you feel about it on the trip, and is your notion of danger a newer feeling, in retrospect? Yes it's in hindsight, just the general danger of motorcycling and riding home on Hwy 52, the most dangerous hwy in MN.

How was Joey's experience on that trip?   Nervous, scared, excited, willing...?  He's looking genuinely happy in that photo.  How does he feel about the experience now that time has passed?  How old was he at the time of the trip?  mostly he was bored, about 10-11 I think..

Boy, I've seen enough of your videos that if I was a willing youngster I think I would have had a blast sitting behind you on the bike!

Thanks for bearing along with my questions.

Steve.

It's so easy to get in a crash that someone else causes in a blink of an eye.. His mother would have killed me.. we didn't tell her we were going..

He has good memories of it now ..

[maquette]

Tyler started riding in the sidecar when he was 5. His first "long" trip was when he was 6 to the western NY rally. He made that trip again when he was 8 and has several thousand miles in the sidecar now that he is nine. When he was eight I made some passenger peg extenders for the EV so he could try riding behind me. He took to that very well, but prefers the sidecar because he can see better.

One thing I feel is very important is communications between the rider and the passenger. If I were not able to ask him questions going down the road, I wouldn't take him. As others have said, I believe these times together will be memories he will cherish always.

Tom

[John Ulrich]

Does he have a backrest of some type for the child to sit against?

[Wayne Orwig]

Quote from: Kev m on November 24, 2016, 11:30:17 PM

Like I've said I've had passengers fall asleep on longer rides and it was never the slightest issue.

When my daughter was about 14, we were riding on a 100F degree day, and she passed out in the summer heat. When I noticed her helmet kept banging into my back, I pulled over. I got off the bike, and had one heck of a time getting her up and off of the seat. And she is a lightweight. At that point I stopped worrying about them falling off when they go to sleep or such.
(this was a Kawasaki Voyager / touring barge)

[mabajada]

I have a 6 year old son and we have been taking short rides to the ice-cream shop. He is so excited about it and it has been a special experience feeling his excitement and wonder while riding. I felt comfortable with his age as he has been racing BMX since he was 4 and he has a good ability to focus.
My �78 Lemans isn�t the greatest bike to with him, as it has a solo 1-1/2 style seat and we squish into it. He loves this bike, but I will only ride short low traffic trips this way. Other bike is a police Eldo with a solo seat. I will need to get another bike so we can ride properly ;p
I do worry about his future knowing he will ride. As a parent I want to protect him from everything, but understanding my own desires, it is up to me (and thus up to him) to take my/his risks and thrills
I feel the best I can do is to teach him to build skills and manage his own risks. He already understands this racing BMX.
If he has interest with motorcycles I would like to get him onto a dirt bike to learn about riding and risks, before he is a teenager, or street legal to ride.

[huub]

i started bringing my daughter to school on the bike when she was 4, the first longer ride  up to 20 miles when she was 7.
the first real long rides ( up to 400 miles/day) when she was 13.
Yes she does sleep on the back of the bike,
so does my wife, she has done that for the last 30 years, i never considered that a problem....

Basically is you feel safe with your kid on the back, go for it, the kid will love it!
 he will have fond lasting memories of the ride.
if you dont feel safe, get in the car...

[stevet]

It's so easy to get in a crash that someone else causes in a blink of an eye.. His mother would have killed me.. we didn't tell her we were going..

He has good memories of it now ..

Thanks, Brad.

Steve.

[giusto]

 When I was about 10 years old our neighbor from across the street… Joey… Returned home from Vietnam… He had his beloved 1952 Indian chief out of the garage and riding in no time… I remember very clearly The many times he would ask me if I wanted to go for a ride… Jumped up and sat on the back of the gas tank and he would let me shift that thing just like a little truck.
When I had my 51 WL  I took all three of my kids out on our rural roads in the same manner... Probably not exactly the safest thing to do… But I will surely remember the reflection of their faces I could see in the back of the headlight bucket with humongous grins  as they clunked through all three gears again just like a little truck.  They were 10 eight and six... And to this day remind me of how much fun it was for them.
 I always stayed out of town… Mainly on rural back roads... I'll do it again with my grandkids when that comes... I always feel safer with them in front of me and my arms wrapped around them ...no way they could fall off and they felt like they were steering.

[Huzo]

When my daughter was small, I found a small helmet and would take her on rides with use. Three up, on the motorcycle. I was stopped a number of times, but never ticketed, because I wasn't breaking any law.

Yeah you were, could she reach both footpegs from the seated position ?

[Huzo]

Well Sent KenKtk, that tells me that you don't own one, therefore cannot speak from experience.
 A couple of borrowed rides may have introduced them but an extended ownership with tens of thousands
 of miles imparts a lot more information.

That's all I meant Jim.

[oldbike54]

 Huzo , I had my first and only real injury motorbike crash at the age of 4 . Like you , we had a neighbor with a MC , what I am fairly certain was either a late Knucklehead or early Panhead . It was a rigid frame model for sure , with a spring post seat . Anyway , he would perch me behind him somehow , and we would ride around the neighborhood at what felt like high speeds , although he probably never exceeded 25 MPH . One day we were turning into a driveway , and I lost purchase , slid off to the left , and somehow my little left foot got tangled up in the works . Broken leg , torn ligaments in my knee , and a severely bruised left side . 6 months in a cast , and some surgery were required . Why do I bring this up , well , I couldn't wait to get back on a motorbike . As for what anyone else does re their own children , all I would ask is to exercise some common sense , much like we should do in any circumstance .

 Dusty

[Nick]

And her dad is the one who stepped away!

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Thant's what grandparents are there for!!! 

[Nick]

My two boys rode with me on my ’97 Kawasaki Voyager. With that set-up there was no way they could ever fall off  (due to falling asleep), and they did take a few naps.
My youngest girl has been my riding partner ever since she was able to comfortably reach the passenger pegs on the EV. The bike is equipped with a topcase/backrest.  I did need to get a wireless intercom so we could communicate and, more importantly, she could listen to her music library.
She is now 15 and, so far, still interested in occasionally riding pillion with the old man. 

[stephenm]

Photo 1, 2003. Just got the Scrambler running after 18 years of hibernation. To celebrate, took my youngest, 11 years old, to visit Mum and Dad, a 400km round trip. A year later, with a 1200GS, I returned to riding, and my kids all shared in the adventures. I took my Dad on 5 tours, totalling 15,000km and 40 days on the bike, over 5 years, until his passing in 2009.






image upload


Photo 2, 2016. Youngest daughter joined me for a trip to visit Mum again. Since Dad's passing, Mum (now 80) has ridden pillion with me on 7 tours, totalling 50 days on the bike over 7 years.

My 2 cents?
Life is short.
Make memories to last a lifetime.

Stephen

[Huzo]

Quote from: Kev m on November 24, 2016, 11:30:17 PM

Like I've said I've had passengers fall asleep on longer rides and it was never the slightest issue.

When my daughter was about 14, we were riding on a 100F degree day, and she passed out in the summer heat. When I noticed her helmet kept banging into my back, I pulled over. I got off the bike, and had one heck of a time getting her up and off of the seat. And she is a lightweight. At that point I stopped worrying about them falling off when they go to sleep or such.
(this was a Kawasaki Voyager / touring barge)

That sure is a hot day for a passenger, I wouldn't be worried about falling asleep either if I was that close to dying of dehydration, nice job.

[Huzo]

Huzo , I had my first and only real injury motorbike crash at the age of 4 . Like you , we had a neighbor with a MC , what I am fairly certain was either a late Knucklehead or early Panhead . It was a rigid frame model for sure , with a spring post seat . Anyway , he would perch me behind him somehow , and we would ride around the neighborhood at what felt like high speeds , although he probably never exceeded 25 MPH . One day we were turning into a driveway , and I lost purchase , slid off to the left , and somehow my little left foot got tangled up in the works . Broken leg , torn ligaments in my knee , and a severely bruised left side . 6 months in a cast , and some surgery were required . Why do I bring this up , well , I couldn't wait to get back on a motorbike . As for what anyone else does re their own children , all I would ask is to exercise some common sense , much like we should do in any circumstance .

 Dusty

Jeez, couldn't agree more Dusty, am I the one you meant to put this point to ? Looks to me like heaps of these blokes get away with something through a happy mixture of good luck/good judgement and then use that as proof that everyone else is worrying about bugger all. We've all gotten away with stupid stuff but at least can we admit that we owe a fair amount of it to good luck ?

[oldbike54]

Jeez, couldn't agree more Dusty, am I the one you meant to put this point to ? Looks to me like heaps of these blokes get away with something through a happy mixture of good luck/good judgement and then use that as proof that everyone else is worrying about bugger all. We've all gotten away with stupid stuff but at least can we admit that we owe a fair amount of it to good luck ?

 Hell Bud , I am still getting away with stupid stuff  The real point , lots of childhood activities are dangerous , football in all of its variations , skateboarding , chasing girls (gasp).  Growing up with a high percentage of the truly dangerous wild creatures in the world probably
seems normal to you and most other Ozzies , but seems a reckless way to live to most American parents .

 Dusty

[Huzo]

Don't know that we're that different Dusty.

[oldbike54]

Don't know that we're that different Dusty.

 Well , WE aren't that different , but WE may not be normal Bud 

 Dusty

[Kev m]

That sure is a hot day for a passenger, I wouldn't be worried about falling asleep either if I was that close to dying of dehydration, nice job.

That's a pretty big assumption.

As for assumption of risk, how far is too far.

I find a little rural motorcycling with a well seasoned rider and their well prepared child to be fairly middle of the road.

I wonder statistically what is worse for potential injury that or:

Skiing/snowboarding
Swimming/snorkeling
Boating/tubing/water skiing
Contact sports
Trampolines (ask a pediatrician or ER doc)

Should kids not play on playgrounds, or hike/climb, how about bicycles?

In a world where children are often neglected or abused I think parents who love and take time to share their lives with their kids are generally on the right track.

Sure not everyone wants to see their tween or teen solo in an airplane or attempt to sail around the world, that would be a bridge too far for me. But jeez taking my eldest daughter to or from school on rural country roads between Amish farms was a great memory.

[Huzo]

That's a pretty big assumption.

What's the big assumption Kev ?

[Kev m]

What's the big assumption Kev ?

Dying of dehydration.