Crappy batteries

[drlapo]

My BMW R80 needs another battery.
I installed a new BMW Exide battery in late 2013.
It failed in less than 2 months.
BMW replaced it under warranty but the replacement failed in a week.  Both had bad cells. Again replaced under warranty.
The battery installed in late January 2014 died today.  It charges to13.2 volts stabilizes to 12.5 volts and drops to 6 to 8 volts when I push the start button.
It lives on a battery maintainer in my heated shop all winter.
The bike charges at 13.8 volts.
WTF?
No more BMW brand batteries for me

[fotoguzzi]

It lives on a battery maintainer in my heated shop all winter.
 

what kind?
 I have never needed to keep any battery on maintainer.. typically my Oddesey batteries have sat all winter in garage not plugged in and the bike starts right up in spring.

[oldbike54]

 When did BMW switch to Excide ?? AND as FG asked , why are you leaving a new battery on a battery tender ?

 Dusty

[leafman60]

I've had very good luck with Odyssey and MotoBatt. 

I do not leave anything on a permanent trickle charge.  Former fire fighter.

[drlapo]

the batteries were standard lead acid units.
I would put them on a Cetec maintainer if the bike was not used for a couple of weeks.
a previous Walmart battery lasted 6 years in the same bike

[Wayne Orwig]

The battery maintainer is slowly cooking the battery dry.

My last AGM battery lasted 11 years. My battery desulfater I adjusted to maintain the battery at about 13.4V. I only used it one week every couple of months, if that.
 

[drlapo]

The batteries were not dry
The case is transparent and the acid level was always at the high mark.
Does battery acid age?
Would it affect battery life if the initial fill was with "old" acid?
Most batteries now are agm so that box of acid at the back of the shop could be years old.

[Triple Jim]

Battery acid won't go bad if the lid is on the container, and the container is made of something the acid doesn't react with, like the plastic bottle it comes in.

I got tired of buying relatively expensive specialty batteries like motorcycle batteries, Jet Ski batteries, etc., and went to generic AGMs years ago.  I get at least the same life and spend $20-$30 each (delivered) at most.

[canuguzzi]

Snip
No more BMW brand batteries for me

BMW didn't make the batteries.

Did you check the date code on the batteries?  Check to see if they are shorted internally?

Leaving a battery on those so-called trickle chargers is a quick way to ruining the battery. If the battery is in a garage, any chance it froze at any time (n/a for agms)?

Strange how those who pay the least attention to their batteries seems to get the most useful life from them while those constantly charging them with trickle charges and such have the most problems.

[drlapo]

I treat all my batteries the same way: they are stored out of the bikes in a heated room.
they get a maintenance charge once a month, during the winter, with a dedicated motorcycle battery charger.
the lead acid battery for my Triumph T140 is now 10 years old and going strong.  its a Walmart garden tractor battery.
my Triumph Thruxton battery lasted 8 years
the Walmart battery that I previously used in the BMW lasted 6+ years
but 3 bad batteries from the same manufacturer, Exide, makes me suspicious

[Doppelgaenger]

I wonder maybe if the R/R is bad on the bike and cooking your batteries every now and then? Or the trickle charger might be to blame?

Batteries that go bad usually go downhill for a while before they fail. Like you'd end up having to jump the bike a couple of times before it'll no longer start the bike.

Acid does not age, however the battery plates could be sulfated which reduces the overall Amp-Hours a battery can hold. In this case the sulfuric acid crystalizes on the lead plates and is no longer available to hold charge.

Sulfating can sometimes be fixed with a desulfating-capable charger. Sulfating is usually a symptom of batteries that are not allowed to come to a full charge or see a lot of short runs. Desulfating is a controlled over-charge which a regular charger can't do and is really something that everyone should do to their battery on a regular basis. Once you have desulfated a regular lead-acid battery you have to top off the acid with distilled water because some of it will have been consumed thru electrolisis

Does the bike sit a lot? You might be getting what is described here: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/what_causes_car_batteries_to_fail

[Wayne Orwig]

The batteries were not dry
The case is transparent and the acid level was always at the high mark.
Does battery acid age?
Would it affect battery life if the initial fill was with "old" acid?
Most batteries now are agm so that box of acid at the back of the shop could be years old.

Acid doesn't go bad if sealed reasonably well.
Plates will sulfate though. Try a battery sulfator, like I do. Not much to lose at this point.

[Dilliw]

I treat all my batteries the same way: they are stored out of the bikes in a heated room.
they get a maintenance charge once a month, during the winter, with a dedicated motorcycle battery charger.
the lead acid battery for my Triumph T140 is now 10 years old and going strong.  its a Walmart garden tractor battery.
my Triumph Thruxton battery lasted 8 years
the Walmart battery that I previously used in the BMW lasted 6+ years
but 3 bad batteries from the same manufacturer, Exide, makes me suspicious

Now that's some battery maintenance!

Exide has been going out of business since 1888 so it should be a good match for your Guzzi.  I believe they went back into bankruptcy a few years ago although they may be out now.

I have always used East Penn branded batteries just because that's probably the first one I bought way back when and I didn't have a problem.  Batteries Plus has their AGM at a pretty good price, and you get a discount if you buy it online and then go pick it up.

[Fuzzy]

OK, I will display my ignorance here. After reading threads on Battery Tenders I must be missing something (either internally or externally). My impression is that their purpose was to stay on the battery and keep it at a level of charge while the bike is not in use. I also thought that, in general, that the cognoscenti on the forum used them in such a manner.

The responses here imply that this is not the case. Am I misunderstanding one thread or the other?

I'll readily admit that I am blindly stumbling around with electrical issues, so can I get a little help, please?

[rodekyll]

No, a battery tender is not needed if everything else is healthy and there is no parasitic drain designed into the system*.  People think bikes are somehow short-bus 'special' in this regard.  They're not and all the fussing over it seems a bit silly.  You don't use one on your car, why should the bike be any different?

I started my Convert yesterday after it had been sitting since 2/21 when I removed the master cylinder.  It has a 2-y-o lead-acid tractor battery in it -- the kind you buy when your preferred brand isn't on the shelf.  No tender.  No special treatment.  No indoor storage -- just a tarp under the Quonset hut carport.  I toggled the kill switch twice to be sure the injectors were primed and it started up like I'd ridden it the day before.  As a side note -- for some reason the pads weren't welded to the front calipers.  If I put the bike away wet, those cast disks usually rust to the pads like glue and I have to remove a bolt and pry the calipers loose.

Likewise, my AGM batteries get no OCD coddling at all.  They might be parked and dark for 6 months or more and they crank like happy little elves.

My boat gets an auto-charger that comes on at a certain level and cuts out again at full charge, but it runs bilge pumps and alarms and stuff, so it's never turned 'off'.


*if there is a parasitic drain built into the system someone needs a spanking.  When you turn the bike off it ought to be OFF.  I have a battery cutout to ensure that.

[yogidozer]

Oddesey batteries never disappointed me http://www.batterymart.com/

[drlapo]

My BMW has an electric clock= drain
But that should not kill the battery in a week.
I'm going to use a agm battery next and it won't be built by exide

[rodekyll]

I think it's totally stupid for a factory to drain the battery with something as completely nonessential as a CLOCK.  It's triply stupid when for $2 you can buy a clock with it's own battery.

Same with antitheft and 'hot' ecu's and such.  What f-ing genius decided to power that crap off the main battery?  He and a bike need to be set down in the bottom of a dry sand wash with no kickstarter and a dead CLOCK.  Might smarten him up if he survives it.

[Doppelgaenger]

Have you given thought to Li-ion? Those batteries knock like 10 lbs off the bike and (in theory) are cheaper in the long run because you get more cycles for your dollar.

You do need special battery chargers for them though, if you put it on a regular charger that can equalize/desulfate you'll fry it. They don't need anything special on the bike tho

[Wayne Orwig]

Have you given thought to Li-ion? Those batteries knock like 10 lbs off the bike and (in theory) are cheaper in the long run because you get more cycles for your dollar.

I suspect you mean LiFe, not LiIon.

[RayB]

I'm running the PC680 in my R100...same battery since 2009, started up fine this morning, no maintainer charge

[stephenm]

A 'battery maintainer' monitors the battery voltage. It only charges if the voltage drops below a set threshold. Once the battery reaches full charge, the maintainer is "off" but monitoring. In this condition, it could sit for months without delivering any charging, if the battery holds its charge well. Batteries which sit for months at a time, over winter for example, where the voltage starts dropping, could benefit from a maintainer.

A trickle charger charges at, for example, 1 - 1.5 amps continuously, and is not suitable for long term connection.

Stephen

[Testarossa]

Here's more information than I could absorb on battery tenders for motorcycles: http://archives.wingworldmag.com/august2002/magazine/article/battery.html  It appears that there's a lot of variation between different brands, and quality-control inconsistencies within some brands.

I've been using the $7 Harbor Freight trickle charger, which feeds 14.2 volts at .5 amp. It's not really a float charger and if you leave it connected for days at a time it can cook a battery. Best to hook it up for a few hours each month, or put it on a timer that gooses the battery for a few minutes a day.

I've heard warnings that this cheap charger isn't good for AGM batteries. It's been fine for the flooded lawn tractor battery I use in the T.

[nighthawk]

Motobat has been good to me...

[Kiwi_Roy]

I think it's totally stupid for a factory to drain the battery with something as completely nonessential as a CLOCK.  It's triply stupid when for $2 you can buy a clock with it's own battery.
 

I agree but the owners change stuff also.
After Market direct connected regulators draw about 1/2 milliamp and the 5 Volt adapter for a GPS even without the unit plugged in will draw a little bit also.
If you do the math it doesn't seem like a 10 Amp hour battery would go flat in a year but the battery is possibly only part charged to start with.

Example, suppose the 10 AH is half charged and your parasitic load is 1 milliamp
5/0.001 =  5000 hours or 208 days but then it's dead flat, it won't crank the bike long before that point.

You can measure the parasitic load with a multimeter but you have to be dammed careful doing it, connect your meter in series with the battery if anything is on at all the fuse in the meter pops
and it reads zero fooling you into thinking everything is fine, no it's zero because the fuse is blown.
A better (safer) way is to connect a resistor in series and measure the Voltage drop across it, (a 1 k resistor will drop 1 Volt at 1 milliamp)

Another way to get an indication of leakage is to connect a 12 Volt LED in series, turn something on it will light at full brightness, turn Off and it should go right out, even at 0.1 milliamp
the LED will light. 

Put your meter in series with the LED to check it's working on the milliamp range, a typical small LED will draw 5 - 10 milliamps.
 

[rodekyll]

I understand the owner doing bonehead things with the electrics.  I don't understand when the factory designs in a weakness like that.  It's just too easy to figure out an aux power source for the techno-trinkets.

[LowRyter]

warranty batteries from the dealer?

sounds odd.

My guess is the dealer got a bad batch.

[gnorts]

Exide=JUNK.

I was in the marine electric business for a few years when gel-cell batteries were coming to market.  The Prevailer batteries, built under license from the German company Sonnenschein by East Penn, were very good quality but expensive.  Exide introduced a gel cell line at a lower price point, and I installed quite a few of them.

They ALL failed.

A total loser for me, since I had to eat all the installation labor to replace them.

Never again for Exide.  East Penn  builds good batteries.

[canuguzzi]

It's an easy thing to put in a low voltage disconnect. Set it for whatever you like and if the voltage drops below that, the disconnect insures the battery doesn't go down the tubes.

Sure, you would want something to make sure you weren't going down the road and have it disconnect because it saw low voltage but it isn't like the bike is going to run long at low voltage anyway.

All my accessories run off a Lithium but are charged by the bikes main. The lithium gets charged from the under seat 12 volt socket, no special charger needed, it's built-in. If the main battery ever goes, I can flip a switch and the lithium will start the bike. Beats carrying one around in pockets or luggage.

[Wayne Orwig]

Since a lead-acid battery is generally said to self discharges about 1% per day, a clock that might drain it in hundreds of days is a non-issue. After all, a little button battery will power it for a couple of years.
But then, there were in the past, electro mechanical clocks that would kill a good battery in a very short time.