Author Topic: Got rollered!  (Read 55467 times)

Offline Xlratr

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Got rollered!
« on: August 30, 2015, 11:02:19 AM »
Although my flat tappet Stelvio hadn't shown any signs of cam / tappet failure, I decided to do the roller conversion anyway. I started to think it's just a question of time. This wasn't an easy decision because it was running beautifully, and it's also not a cheap thing to do if it's at your own cast. It's a bit unfortunate because comparing VIN numbers, I think I have one of the last 80 flat tappet Stelvios built.

I always thought that my engine was pretty quiet, but with the roller tappets it's now a tick quieter. Runs just the same as before, although it might be a little less willing to rev up above 6500. I may be imagining that though. That needs some more observation.

My bike has covered 22,000 km, so not much. When I had a look at the cams I thought they were fine, but after taking them out of the cam boxes I could see some noticeable wear on the lobes, although no scuffing. But on the exhaust can lobe  I can feel a ridge with my fingernail, so I think some of the surface is definitely worn through. I would say nothing critical yet, but in another 10,000 km they probably would have been worn out.

On the cam box cover you can see the engraving 173/12 which could mean 17. March 2012. That would fit with the purchase date of early April, as the dealer had just got the bike in. As I said, I believe one of the last flat tappet motors.

Sorry there are no pictures here, but I've always used Tapatalk for that and this site is currently not compatible. But if you're interested, I posted some on the ADV rider Stelvio thread.

John

EDIT 02Sep: Got a Photobucket Account set up, so here a couple of pics.
The first picture shows the left side tappets. The second picture shows the left side cams.


« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 03:03:12 AM by Xlratr »
John

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Offline lucian

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2015, 12:12:17 PM »
It sounds as if you made the right decision ,an once of prevention is worth a pound of weed. Or something like that. Did you perform the surgery yourself? Are you still running the factory fuel map? How was the wear on the cam followers? Just curios. dave

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2015, 01:34:24 PM »
It's the tappet said that fail not the cams. How do the tappet said look?

Pete

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 02:13:26 PM »
It's the tappet said that fail not the cams. How do the tappet said look?

Pete

There was slight pitting on the inlet side (one small spot) otherwise smooth. Sorry I can't post a picture here, but I put a picture of the tappets on the ADV rider Stelvio thread. I think it hadn't really started to fail yet, but it wouldn't have been long. I think I caught it right at the beginning.
John
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 06:08:20 PM by Xlratr »
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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2015, 02:13:26 PM »

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2015, 02:19:28 PM »
It sounds as if you made the right decision ,an once of prevention is worth a pound of weed. Or something like that. Did you perform the surgery yourself? Are you still running the factory fuel map? How was the wear on the cam followers? Just curios. dave

I planned on doing it myself, as it doesn't look too complicated, but finally I had the dealer do it. A few months back I found a dealer not too far away that actually made a good impression and seemed very competent. So I let him do it.
See above my comment on the followers.
I have been running my own map for the last 12,000 km.
John
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Offline lucian

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2015, 03:45:22 PM »
I just took a look at your pics on adv rider. It sure looks like a significant amount of dlc has gone missing from the surface of the tappets. I think this should have been considered a failure and parts covered by Guzzi. I would think a complete oil circuit back flush would be in order, and perhaps an inspection of the vanes on the oil pumps. Had you noticed a change in running behavior prior to the conversion? Particularly idle behavior? Or a sudden increase in valve gaps?

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2015, 05:12:43 PM »
Could you supply a link to the ADV rider thread?

Thanks

Offline pauldaytona

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Offline Xlratr

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2015, 05:46:24 PM »
John

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Offline Xlratr

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 05:48:37 PM »
Had you noticed a change in running behavior prior to the conversion? Particularly idle behavior? Or a sudden increase in valve gaps?

No, the bike was running perfectly. No idle issues and no valve clearances opening up.
John
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Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 05:49:39 PM »
Growing old ain't for sissies.

'13 V7 Special (red/white)

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2015, 05:51:55 PM »
Bill just sent me the link. Thanks guys.

Yes, classic failure of the DLC coating. They were just starting to go. When you look at the damage with an electron microscope you can clearly see how the coating de-laminates and then gets pounded to a slurry by the cam flanks. That stuff is very hard, (Hence its name, diamond like carbon.) and if the damage isn't caught early it does a lot of damage as it circulates in the oil.

Pete

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2015, 06:03:17 PM »
Bill just sent me the link. Thanks guys.

Yes, classic failure of the DLC coating. They were just starting to go. When you look at the damage with an electron microscope you can clearly see how the coating de-laminates and then gets pounded to a slurry by the cam flanks. That stuff is very hard, (Hence its name, diamond like carbon.) and if the damage isn't caught early it does a lot of damage as it circulates in the oil.

Pete

Pete, do you think this was caught early enough that an oil and filter change is sufficient?
John
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Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2015, 06:20:28 PM »
In all honesty I'd drop the sump and give it a really good clean out and back-flush the oil cooler just to be certain. Those tappets are in the very earliest stage of failure, the fact the lash gaps hadn't begun to change and the engine was still running normally is an indication of how early you caught it, (Mine looked very similar.).

Pic of surface taken with electron microscope. You can clearly see the delamination and damage caused to the substrate.



As you can see once it starts the degeneration is swift and extreme!



If you are running your own map I assume it's an open loop one? The 8V is extraordinarily sensitive to changes in clearance and while the engine is running closed loop it will trim around early wear with an open loop map it becomes immediately apparent when stuff starts to go wrong?

You will find that you'll have to alter the map for the roller top end as well, the cam profiles are significantly different between flat and roller, I've found on my Griso that using the map I was previously running its like hitting a brick walk at six grand at large throttle openings. It's similar but a more extreme feeling as I had with much earlier iterations of the Mistral Hi-Pipe/dbk map. I'll be rollerising Mark's bike soon though and then we'll start serious logging work to develop roller suitable maps.

Pete
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 06:41:51 PM by Vasco DG »

Offline ohiorider

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2015, 07:22:54 PM »
So, help me with this ...... when will Piaggio cover the cost of the kit?  Obviously, I don't want to run my Griso until the point that little particles of DXX (whatever the hell the hard coating is) have ground into big end bearings and other critical mechanical components.  I realize, Pete, that you ran your early version Griso for lots of miles before deciding to rollerize it.  Based on what I see on this forum, is there some reason, other than Piaggio economics, that they won't provide the roller kit if the owner is willing to pick up the cost of installation?  By way of comparison, BMW is currently picking up the cost of replacing the rear drive flanges on all affected bikes over several model years.  Appreciably, BMW has lots more $$ than Moto Guzzi, but Piaggio has deep pockets, too, and should consider doing the right thing, ie, supplying me and other owners with the roller conversion kit if we are willing to pay for the installation.  Actually, they should pick up 100% of the cost of swapping out the flat tappets and replacing them with roller tappets.  And, of course, Piaggio should insist the work is done only by shops with technicians trained on replacing the tappets.

OK, I'm done with this rant, knowing full well I am what I am and that's all what I am!  In other words, nowhere.

Of course, after reading that the rollers then require the owner to research aftermarket maps to regain previous performance (hit a wall at 6500rpm on a Griso .... you have to be kidding!?) ..... well, what the hell, maybe I'll simply act like I've never read any of the posts on this site, and run the little begger until it blows.  At least she winds to 8000rpm with flat tappets with the greatest of ease.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 07:31:16 PM by ohiorider »
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
2012 Griso 8v SE (sold Sept '15)
Reliable standby: 1991 BMW R100GS
2014 Honda CB1100 (Traded Nov 2019)
New:  2016 Triumph T120 (Traded Dec 2021)
New:  2021 Kawasaki W800

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2015, 07:32:02 PM »
Unfortunately piaggio will not, under any circumstances, replace the flat tappet top end pre-emptively. It has to fail first. Why? Cost obviously. A certain number of bikes won't be ridden enough to fail or may be written off before failure can occur. Also some bikes seem to soldier on forever.

Do I think this is reasonable or right? No, I think it sucks balls, but there is nothing I or any other dealer, service agent or importer can do about it.

Pete

beetle

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2015, 08:03:41 PM »
Of course, after reading that the rollers then require the owner to research aftermarket maps to regain previous performance (hit a wall at 6500rpm on a Griso .... you have to be kidding!?) ..... well, what the hell, maybe I'll simply act like I've never read any of the posts on this site, and run the little begger until it blows.  At least she winds to 8000rpm with flat tappets with the greatest of ease.

No, no, no. The rollers will work fine with the factory map. It's only those running open-loop non-stock maps that need to get updated.

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2015, 08:19:46 PM »
Yeah, I just picked up on that. Bob, the factory closed loop map will trim around the change. It's one of the advantages of running a closed loop system in that it will trim around discrepancies. It's a double edged sword though as it will also mask the early stages of tappet failure.

As I've said before though once the failure progresses enough that the change in pumping can't be trimmed around the symptoms are an unwillingness to idle when cold and then a low idle once the engine is out of the warm-up cycle.

Pete

Offline lucian

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2015, 08:23:02 PM »
Actually Pete,you personally have done an extraordinary service to all of us flat tappet 8v owners by sharing what you have learned about these failures. It is unfortunate that Piaggio keeps us all in the dark on this , although I do commend them for at least providing the parts should it fail, even out of warranty. Many of us have decided to pay out of pocket for the swap as you did, and with the information you have so graciously shared with us, many will catch this early and avoid even more expense. The 8v is truly a great motor and if you got to pay to play, count me in . Many of us will spend more on an exhaust can than the cost of the roller kit so wtf. If it makes you sleep better, I say get it done. Many thanks for your time and expertise.  dave

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2015, 01:59:17 AM »
What pisses me off is that we, the people at the pointy end, get told NOTHING! Why? Why do we have to sort it out and isolate a cause? All we get told is "If this happens? Do this!" It's not confidence inspiring.

Pete

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2015, 02:49:14 AM »
No, no, no. The rollers will work fine with the factory map. It's only those running open-loop non-stock maps that need to get updated.

With the rollers in, and with my flat tappet map, it runs very well up to around 6500rpm, after which it feels very slightly less willing. Not a massive difference, but I think I will be hooking up the Logger again to see what's happening. It's definitely not like the "running into a brick wall" effect that Pete experienced though.

In my understanding the narrow band sensor is not able to operate above (approx.) 5,000rpm and even a bike equipped with the standard map will go into open loop at that point (or at wide open throttle positions). Is it really possible for a closed loop map to trim itself at high RPMS?

John
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Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2015, 02:59:16 AM »
That was originally my understanding too but the source of that pearl of wisdom has long been discredited in my book so my answer is I'm really not sure.

My guess would be though that it will trim pretty much all the way through but because the narrow band sensor takes a few seconds to trim it won't often get the chance. In lower gears with a wide open throttle it will bounce off the limiter before it has time to trim and in higher gears you'll be going 'Fuque me drunkque' fast which can be problematic!

Pete

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2015, 04:14:49 AM »
That was originally my understanding too but the source of that pearl of wisdom has long been discredited in my book so my answer is I'm really not sure.

My guess would be though that it will trim pretty much all the way through but because the narrow band sensor takes a few seconds to trim it won't often get the chance. In lower gears with a wide open throttle it will bounce off the limiter before it has time to trim and in higher gears you'll be going 'Fuque me drunkque' fast which can be problematic!

Pete

But a narrow band sensor can effectively only trim to 14.7:1, and that would be a trifle too lean at high rpms and open throttle.
I'll do some logging and report back. I live in the land of the Autobahn (the last freedom of the Germans!  :grin:) where "Fuque me drunkque fast" is still a possibility!  :cool:
John

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beetle

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2015, 05:01:19 AM »
I don't believe they trim above a certain throttle/rpm point. I suspect only Marelli knows the exact point.  I reckon the closed loop area operates at and below 4000 rpm and 20% throttle. Oh, and above an engine temp of 60. There is no need for it to trim the whole range.

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2015, 05:09:19 AM »
OK, but if that is so how come the Grs8V-03 map works with the roller set up? I would of expected that it would have a lousy effect in the same area that the open loop maps are which is high throttle, high RPM?

Pete

beetle

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2015, 05:46:10 AM »
 The open loop maps I build have targeted AFR for 'lean best torque' (I hate that term) with a lot more spark advance, for specific pipes. They run with a much narrower set parameters than the 03 map can. You know yourself what happens if the valve clearances are set differently than my a Griso. Performance is affected. The rollers clearly change the engine characteristics so that the map no longer meets the target. 

The 03 map runs rich outside the closed loop area, and has a mild spark advance compared with my maps. I'm sure they bikes run different with the 03 map and rollers, but its rich enough to mask any differences. My maps are custom, not general purpose.

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2015, 05:47:33 AM »
Makes sense. Thanks.

Pete

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2015, 05:50:09 AM »
OK, but if that is so how come the Grs8V-03 map works with the roller set up? I would of expected that it would have a lousy effect in the same area that the open loop maps are which is high throttle, high RPM?

Pete

I think the standard map is incredibly rich at high RPM, at least my Stelvio map was. The AFR was in the 11s  at some points. I trimmed mine down to an AFR of 12.8 (edit: at wide throttle openings) when I had the flat tappets in. Just speculating but maybe the roller set up needs a bit more fuel? Maybe the map you had in the Griso was a bit leaner than my Stelvio map so the switch to rollers caused more of a "brick wall effect"? Again, just speculating. Logging may give some clue.
John
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 05:51:51 AM by Xlratr »
John

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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2015, 01:51:00 PM »
Whale sheit........
Just pulled a cam box. Not pretty.
50,000 miles. Janu-wine yak fat lube.
Only ridden to work gently.  :evil:

Now I hope there is a kit C in the US.



Glad my 2004 hydraulic lifter EV never had these issues.

:boozing:



« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 02:09:53 PM by Wayne Orwig »
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2015, 06:13:40 PM »
They're a long way gone Wayne. Hopefully your oil pumps will be OK.

Last time I looked ETA for 'C' kit in USA was six to eight weeks but one of the blokes on the Ghetto, (Might of been Lucian?) was expecting a delay and one turned up in a week! You might get lucky.

Pete

 

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