Got rollered!

[pyoungbl]

Wayne, did you have any indication of a problem? 

[ohiorider]

So, looking at the pics of the tappets from Wayne's engine, it appears there is none of the hardening material left on the tappet(s).  Is it possible that this loose stuff might make only one or two passes through the oil galleys before getting captured in the oil filter?  And perhaps the pump gears are sturdy enough that a pass or two of this stuff will cause little damage?

Curious minds (and Griso 8vSE owner) want to know.

Bob

[Vasco DG]

The oil pumps are trochoidal, 'Gerotor' type pumps rather than spur gear types. The problem is that the pumps are the only bit of the engine that gets unfiltered lubricating oil but the cooling circuit is un-filtered. This is why it is important to back-flush the lines and cooler as bits of mount can get lodged in them but flush through later reviving wear problems. If the engine is used hard from cold the main filter for the lubrication circuit may go into bypass and its then the real problems can start as crap can get fed through the mains and big ends.

Pete

[Chuck in Indiana]

The oil pumps are trochoidal, 'Gerotor' type pumps rather than spur gear types. The problem is that the pumps are the only bit of the engine that gets unfiltered lubricating oil but the cooling circuit is un-filtered. This is why it is important to back-flush the lines and cooler as bits of mount can get lodged in them but flush through later reviving wear problems. If the engine is used hard from cold the main filter for the lubrication circuit may go into bypass and its then the real problems can start as crap can get fed through the mains and big ends.

Pete

Oh, joy. Thanks for the warning, anyway..

[Vasco DG]

That I'm pretty sure is what happened to Mark Salkeld's engine. There was clear particulate scouring of the big ends. Luckily the mains survived as the front main is now integral with the crankcase. The back one had a couple of tiny scores but I had a warranty take off rear that I machined to rectify the original fault so that was tickets-boo again and, (Guzzi content.) didn't cost anything.

Mark's big ends with particulate scoring.





And some other blockhead's after he spent too much time acting the goat on the back wheel! 

[lucian]

Yup Wayne ,it was me. I ordered my c kit from Seacoast Sport Cycle in New Hampshire and took less than two weeks. Like Pete said when I placed the order they said six to eight weeks and it showed right up, hope you have the same luck. I am hoping to get to it next week. I am anxious to see what my tappets look like at 6000 miles. I have heard of failures occurring at even less mileage. I can't see the point of waiting now that I have a kit. I am not looking forward to going back to the 03 map though.Best of luck with yours. If for some reason you can't get a kit right off, first of the week I'll know if my flat tappets are any good,if they are you can have them. Dave

[Wayne Orwig]

Yup Wayne ,it was me. I ordered my c kit from Seacoast Sport Cycle in New Hampshire and took less than two weeks. Like Pete said when I placed the order they said six to eight weeks and it showed right up, hope you have the same luck.

Well, luckily, or unluckily, I have other issues keeping me from riding much right now. But I hope to have everything resolved in a month or so. I have the EV as a fallback anyway, but still....

As for how I noticed it. I did a valve adjustment, maybe a bit earlier than normal. Notice it was off a bit more that expected. Maybe it was a bit noisy, I would never know.
I checked with my shop and they said the kit C was not in the US, and they would need clear evidence before ordering the kit.
Adjusted and rode it maybe 100 miles just to verify I wasn't nuts. It had changed already. Bummer.

[ohiorider]

....... I checked with my shop and they said the kit C was not in the US, and they would need clear evidence before ordering the kit.

I would hope your photo of the heavily-worn tappet would be all the clear evidence they (your shop) would need to proceed with the warranty order for the C kit.

[Lannis]

Well, luckily, or unluckily, I have other issues keeping me from riding much right now. But I hope to have everything resolved in a month or so. I have the EV as a fallback anyway, but still....

As for how I noticed it. I did a valve adjustment, maybe a bit earlier than normal. Notice it was off a bit more that expected. Maybe it was a bit noisy, I would never know.
I checked with my shop and they said the kit C was not in the US, and they would need clear evidence before ordering the kit.
Adjusted and rode it maybe 100 miles just to verify I wasn't nuts. It had changed already. Bummer.

You sound calm enough, but do you feel like this is satisfactory engine longevity for a normally-priced European touring motorcycle?   I have a BSA with 50,000 miles on it that hasn't wrung out its cams yet.

I know we say "You have to pay to play" etc etc    but for those of us who actually ride our motorcycles, this isn't many miles per dollar.

I ask because I have the same bike approaching 40,000 miles, and this business of "Before the company will admit that they sold you a crap bike, you must provide notarized certified Secret Squirrel evidence of damage"  is a little worrisome to me.

Lannis

[Wayne Orwig]

You sound calm enough, but do you feel like this is satisfactory engine longevity for a normally-priced European touring motorcycle?   I have a BSA with 50,000 miles on it that hasn't wrung out its cams yet.

I had a Honda that ate a cam at around 8000 miles. It was just out of warranty. It was a known issue in 1983. Honda was happy to SELL me everything I needed to repair it. And the Honda design made it a LOT of work. A friend of mine lost a motor due to that cam issue, out of warranty. That bike, a V65 Sabre, was basically a write off.
My 2004 EV never had a problem, but MG installed a fix long out of warranty for free, just in case. MG is (likely) going to give me a repair kit for this worth well over $1K on a 6 year old bike. I'm disappointed, but MG appears to stand behind their products better than Honda in my experience. 

[Xlratr]

You sound calm enough, but do you feel like this is satisfactory engine longevity for a normally-priced European touring motorcycle?   I have a BSA with 50,000 miles on it that hasn't wrung out its cams yet.

I also don't think that engine components should wear out at 22,000 km, but I'm not going to get too upset about it. I understand that with all the best intentions in the world, things can go wrong in a design. I still love the bike and there's no new motorcycle out there I'd rather have. So I'm trying to look at it as a "one time service item". (and there ARE bikes out there with very high service costs!).

What I really think could be better is the policy regarding waiting until something bad happens before support is forthcoming. I would have appreciated an offer to cover the cost of parts on a pre-emptive conversion if the parts proved defective on removal. Even 50% coverage would be OK. And it would be fairer if that was valid on a bike without official service history too, as long as no negligence is apparent (after all, it is a known fault. They make Kits for it!). But anyway, it's done now  and I'm happy.

But I'd still love to know why it happens. I always used the correct oil at the correct intervals or earlier. Around 80% of my mileage was long distance, I've never seen "mayo". I hardly ever ride in the rain or in cold damp weather. Valve clearances were always set meticulously. Shrug!!!

PS: Lannis, at 40k and if you're seriously thinking about keeping the bike, my recommendation would be to get it done.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, luckily, or unluckily, I have other issues keeping me from riding much right now.

Hope it's nothing serious..

[Wayne Orwig]

What I really think could be better is the policy regarding waiting until something bad happens before support is forthcoming.

But I'd still love to know why it happens. I always used the correct oil at the correct intervals or earlier. .

Yes, Piaggio requires it to be an obvious failure before they react. In my case once I suspected it, I rode a bit more to be sure. I didn't want to pull a cam box and see nothing. But then yesterday when I pulled the cam box, it wasn't as big a deal as I thought. So yes, I may have sent more crap through the motor.

My money for WHY, is the same WHY as the hydraulic lift issue. There is a valve spring in there that is a bit too strong. It overloads that lifter. People that had early failures, Stelvios AND hydraulics, have had repeated failures, because that bad valve spring is still in place. The hydraulic update was all about getting the valve springs shimmed properly. My $.02. I'll measure the failing springs versus the non-failing.

Hope it's nothing serious..

Neck / spine / nerve issues. Anything with the head up is painful. I still ride to work, but I grit my teeth so much I now need dental repair work.
(insert political medical rant here)

Dilliw has provided a quart jar of pain reliever.

[canuguzzi]

I had a Honda that ate a cam at around 8000 miles. It was just out of warranty. It was a known issue in 1983. Honda was happy to SELL me everything I needed to repair it. And the Honda design made it a LOT of work. A friend of mine lost a motor due to that cam issue, out of warranty. That bike, a V65 Sabre, was basically a write off.
My 2004 EV never had a problem, but MG installed a fix long out of warranty for free, just in case. MG is (likely) going to give me a repair kit for this worth well over $1K on a 6 year old bike. I'm disappointed, but MG appears to stand behind their products better than Honda in my experience.

V65 cam issues were almost all lubrication related. The usual cause was lugging the engine thinking that a big bore V4 was the ideal candidate for running around at 2500 rpms. Honda made new cams. My Honda 750F had the dreaded value guide problem long after the warranty ran out, they took care of it without question.

I had to go to 3 different Suzuki dealers before one of them actually send the inquiry and got me a new ECU for the V-Strom, which was years out of warranty, no charge.

Often, the problem will get fixed, finding the right dealer is key to that success. Sometimes it takes going past the "no" to get the yes.

[jlburgess]

Honda is the worst on warranties.  I bought a brand new VFR 800 in 2002.  The first time I went to adjust the chain I found the rear sprocket was out of round and caused a tight spot in the chain and zero slack only when the wheel was in a certain spot.
Honda refused to believe this was possible even after I demonstrated it in the dealers lot.  They claimed I didn't lube the chain right and it failed within 6 weeks after purchase.  Had to pay for the sprocket myself and problem solved.  Bastards! 

[Chuck in Indiana]

V65 cam issues were almost all lubrication related.

Ya think? They lubed the top end after the oil managed to make it's way through the clutch. Practically zero oil pressure to the top end. "The Fix" was to tap into the main oil gallery and send pressurized oil up there. Honda's engineering is generally pretty good. Everyone has a brain fart now and then..

[brenwin]

Has anyone got the VIN numbers for Stelvios' manufactured with rollers ? Mines a 2012 purchased in Jan 2013 .

Cheers ,


Steve

[Vasco DG]

Whip a rocker cover off and have a look. It's a five minute job.

Pete

[Markcarovilli]

Has anyone got the VIN numbers for Stelvios' manufactured with rollers ? Mines a 2012 purchased in Jan 2013 .

Cheers ,


Steve

Has anyone got the VIN numbers for Stelvios' manufactured with rollers ? Mines a 2012 purchased in Jan 2013 .

Here you go....
Quote from: Curtis Harper on February 24, 2013, 10:20:59 AM
According to Piaggio, Roller tappets are in the following engines.
 
Stelvio AC : After AC12596 03/12/2012
riso A8 :    After 13524     04/12/2012   
Norge AA :  After 12214     04/18/2012
 
Considering then those engines actually got fitted and in bikes shipped to dealers, 3rd-4th qtr
2012 is about right for most.
« ast Edit: August 25, 2015, 11:54:57 PM by Norge Pilot »

Cheers ,


Steve

[Vasco DG]

My money for WHY, is the same WHY as the hydraulic lift issue. There is a valve spring in there that is a bit too strong. It overloads that lifter. People that had early failures, Stelvios AND hydraulics, have had repeated failures, because that bad valve spring is still in place. The hydraulic update was all about getting the valve springs shimmed properly. My $.02. I'll measure the failing springs versus the non-failing.

I don't think it's a spring issue simply because after they realised that they were flogging a dead horse with the flat tappets they started adding the preload shims to the inlet valves at the factory to minimise cost and downtime when they started the roller tappet roll out. If to much spring was an issue you'd expect these 'Halfway' bikes to have a higher attrition rate than those without the shims. Unfortunately they don't, they all seem to fail willy-nilly but certainly cool running and damp weather won't help as shown by the failure rate in different markets. It's also noticeable that it is always the exhaust valve tappets that seem to fail first and worst and while these have less mass to move they run substantially hotter.

It has been widely recognised that DLC has attatchment issues with a ferrous substrate, it is also very susceptible to degradation by the use of certain lubrication additives. While I don't think we'll ever know with 100% certainty whether it has A cause or if it's a combination of factors the evidence remains that poor servicing, the wrong oil and over-cooling will produce the 'Perfect Storm' that precipitates failure.

Pete

[brenwin]

ACO12980 so I'm relieved . Thanks Mark , much appreciated .     

Steve

[Xlratr]

I don't think it's a spring issue simply because after they realised that they were flogging a dead horse with the flat tappets they started adding the preload shims to the inlet valves at the factory to minimise cost and downtime when they started the roller tappet roll out. If to much spring was an issue you'd expect these 'Halfway' bikes to have a higher attrition rate than those without the shims.........
.......... It's also noticeable that it is always the exhaust valve tappets that seem to fail first and worst and while these have less mass to move they run substantially hotter.

Pete

Since I got a Photobucket account I added a couple of pictures (of the left side tappets and cams) to the original post.

Here's a new picture showing the right side. Slightly less wear and no rough spot yet. The surfaces are absolutely smooth, although the coating is almost worn through. But it's interesting that you mention the exhaust side is always worse, because in my case it's the opposite. As I say, this picture shows the right cylinder tappets. The exhaust tappet only shows a tiny bit of wear, whereas the coating on the inlet side is almost through. Both cylinders show this same pattern of exhaust wear being less than inlet wear.

Like Wayne,  I was also thinking it might have something to do with spring pressure and/or clearances. The inlet valve clearance IS slightly less than the exhaust (longer duration of contact between cam and tappet??), although I can't imagine that would make so much of a difference. By the way, I believe mine was one of the very last flat tappets (I assume with the inlet preload you mentioned?).

John

[Vasco DG]

Well that's a first in my experience.

Note also that the whole point of different clearances, set cold, between inlet and exhaust valves, is to compensate for the extra expansion due to heat of assorted components. Ideally there should be a tiny but adequate clearance at the hottest temperature the valve train runs at. The problem with identifying this minimal clearance is of course that to check it the engine has to be stopped and stuff taken off/set up before the clearance can be measured. During that time things are cooling, rapidly, and therefore changing size and shape. You can work things out with basic metallurgy theory by knowing the C of E of the various parts and there respective sizes but since the *True* operating temperature is pretty much immeasurable there is always going to be an element of guesswork and experience of the examiner to be taken in to account.

Pete

[Wayne Orwig]

So, when, or if, I can get the roller assembly. Are those cams shimmed for end float? Is my Stelvio not going to sound like a cement mixer any more?

[radguzzi]

So, when, or if, I can get the roller assembly. Are those cams shimmed for end float? Is my Stelvio not going to sound like a cement mixer any more?

Well this is timely...  Mine sounds like a cement mixer.  Great.

When I bought the Stelvio in Phoenix, the PO told me that a recall had been done by a dealer in Colorado...long story.

Does that mean the recall was just a different tappet or rollers...?   Yes Pete, I will pop the tops off but I cannot right this second.   What will I see when I do...?  Are the rollers visible right at the rocker assemblies...? 

I was so looking forward to riding the wheels off this Stelvio, I love this thing.

Best,
Rob


Hope you feel better soon Wayne...

[Xlratr]

I will pop the tops off but I cannot right this second.   What will I see when I do...?  Are the rollers visible right at the rocker assemblies...? 

Rob, I'm not familiar with the original recall, but I think that's something quite different to the flat/roller issue.
If you pop off the valve covers you can spot the difference. With the Flat Tappet you can see a metal tube just visible, which is the shaft of the cam followers coming up. The Roller version looks quite different there.

The first picture shows the Flat Tappet version (I pinched this from another post, I don't remember from whom).
The second picture shows the Roller version.

John

[radguzzi]

Rob, I'm not familiar with the original recall, but I think that's something quite different to the flat/roller issue.
John

I'll look up the dealer's name when I get home, give them a call and ask them what they did to this engine and whether there is anything else I need to know about the '09 engine. 

Thanks John,
Rob

[jlburgess]

I'll look up the dealer's name when I get home, give them a call and ask them what they did to this engine and whether there is anything else I need to know about the '09 engine. 

Thanks John,
Rob

I have the '09 engine in my Griso.  They were recalled for the soft cam issue aka "B" spec.  They make a mark under the rocker cover when it is done. That is not the roller tappets which is "C" spec I believe.

[Wayne Orwig]

I'll look up the dealer's name when I get home, give them a call and ask them what they did to this engine and whether there is anything else I need to know about the '09 engine. 

No point.
That recall was just to upgrade to harder parts. Mine had that recall done at about the 1000 mile mark.
That recall obviously was not the full answer.

[radguzzi]

I have the '09 engine in my Griso.  They were recalled for the soft cam issue aka "B" spec.  They make a mark under the rocker cover when it is done. That is not the roller tappets which is "C" spec I believe.

Copy that... 

No point.
That recall was just to upgrade to harder parts. Mine had that recall done at about the 1000 mile mark.
That recall obviously was not the full answer.

So my '09, like yours is in the running for needing this roller upgrade...?      

And I was in such a good mood.

Thanks,
Rob