Author Topic: Got rollered!  (Read 55463 times)

Offline Lannis

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2015, 01:32:29 PM »
Copy that... 

So my '09, like yours is in the running for needing this roller upgrade...?   :shocked:   :sad:

And I was in such a good mood.

Thanks,
Rob

Yeah, tell me about it ....   :tongue:    :undecided:    :shocked:  :blank:
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Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2015, 01:46:55 PM »
Whoa! Hang on, no, let's do a bit of ancient history.

When the 8V motor was launched its first designation as indicated by the two figure prefix to the engine number was A5. These early engines came with chilled cast iron tappets and the cams weren't shimmed for end float in the camboxes so in services they bashed fore and aft making a loud rattling sound. On some machines you also got a cyclic rattle that corresponds with the spinning of the tappets.

Apart from being hideously noisy mechanically they suffered from tappet failures due mainly to the tappets not being heat treated correctly. It was this initial run of failures that led to the first 'Technical Update'. That involved swapping the cams and tappets for a new set with the new tappets being manufactured in forged steel with a 'Diamond Like Carbon' finish on the foot of the tappet. This is a very hard finish that is extremely resistant to damage by sliding friction. About this time as well the factory started shimming the cams for end float in an attempt to quieten the motor down. Motors thus shimmed were designated A8. Contrary to common belief though the cam profiles remained the same as the A5.

Unfortunately while this generally improved the situation failures continued at an alarming rate, especially in markets where people ride in the cooler months and/or it is very damp.

By mid 2010 the factory must of known they were on a hiding to nothing and by this time had the roller top end under development but it wasn't yet ready for production. They did though start adding the preload shims required under the valve springs and marked the heads that were prepared this way so that when the roller conversions were released it could be identified whether head removal would be required when the conversion was performed.

After the release of the California 1400, the first roller equipped bike, the swap to rollers on production 1200's began and the next 'Technical Update', the assorted 'Upgrade Kits' were released. These come in four forms, A, B, C & D but most of the differences in the kits are small detail differences. The major component of the kits, the new camboxes, are identical for all of the kits. These arrive fully assembled, (Don't be tempted to take them apart to see what's in them. They require a couple of special tools for assembly.) apart from the rockers which have to be swapped from the old camboxes to the new.

The detail differences concern the shimming or lack thereof of the inlet valve springs and the type of sealing mechanism used on the plug tube of the rocker cover as one of the other modifications towards the end of flat tappet motor production was replacement of the 'Long' plug tube between head and rocker cover with a shorter one between the head and the camboxes. The top of the tunnel in the camboxes casting was then sealed with a circular gasket of similar type and design to the main rocker cover gaskets. This was a measure introduced to combat leaks from the original o-ring seals used with the 'Long' plug tubes.

So the kits are.

D Kit is specific to the 1200 Sport 8V. It requires the heads to be removed for valve spring shimming but uses the later 'Floating' head covers with the circular plug tube gasket.

B kit does NOT require head removal for shimming as shims were added at the factory but is suitable for engines with the older 'Non Floating' rocker covers with the plug tube sealed with o-rings.

C kit is the full enchilada! It requires head removal for shimming and uses the early 'Non Floating' rocker covers so it includes shims, a full set of head gaskets, inlet port and exhaust gaskets a plastic dinosaur and a cherry on the top!

A kit does NOT require head removal as the shims are already there and uses the 'Floating' rocker covers. This is for the final series of flat tappet bikes made from 2011-2012.

It may well be that if you have an early, pre mid 2010, bike that it will already of had one 'Recall', only it wasn't, it was the 'Technical Update' swap from the early flat tappets to the later ones with the DLC coating. By far the best way to find out what you have on your engine is to simply pop off a rocker cover and have a look. The two systems are VERY different in appearance.

Finally. Don't panic. Keep receipts for all work performed and keep a keyed ear on the engine. Check your valves regularly and if they suddenly start to open their gaps appreciably don't just ignore it and hope the issue will cure itself. It won't! You will also find performance will be adversely affected in the ways I've described before. It is possible to detect failure in the early stages and I find it mind boggling that some people actually manage to ride their 8V's to death.

Pete
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 08:05:12 PM by Vasco DG »

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2015, 02:04:12 PM »
Ride it.
Check the clearances often looking for abnormal gap change. It is so easy to do that a lawyer could do it.
And pulling the cam box is not that bad of a job either.


Ride
Eat
Sleep
Change  oil
Check valves
Repeat the first three often.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2015, 03:08:50 PM »
Pete, thanks very much for the great summary!
John

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2015, 03:08:50 PM »

Bill Hagan

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2015, 03:11:10 PM »
Ride it.
Check the clearances often looking for abnormal gap change. It is so easy to do that a lawyer could do it.
And pulling the cam box is not that bad of a job either.


Ride
Eat
Sleep
Change  oil
Check valves
Repeat the first three often.

Noted.   :boxing:   :wink:

Whoa! Hang on, no, let's do a bit of ancient history.


****

Finally. Don't panic. Keep receipts for all work performed and keep a keyed ear on the engine. Check your valves regularly and if they suddenly start to open their gaps appreciably don't just ignore it and hope the issue will cure itself. It won't! You will also find performance will be adversely affected in the ways I've described before. It is possible to detect failure in the early stages and I find it mind boggling that some people actually manage to ride their 8V's to death.

Pete

Thanks (as always), Pete.

Bill



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Offline ohiorider

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2015, 04:18:24 PM »
Pete, thanks for the A, B, C, D narrative.  Hoping beyond hope, even after reading that my engine number was not quite high enough, I popped the left valve cover on Engine # A8 013411 praying for rollers.  Not to be.

The good news:  has to be the easiest and most accessible valve cover on any of today's bikes, as well as the three easy to reach bolts that hold the fuel tank wing.

Not so good news: See above.  I'm a flat tappet kind of guy.  My pics didn't turn out good enough to worry about posting them, but the tappet stems did appear to come thru what looks like a washer with a thin tube sticking out of it. Correction - after looking at the Parts Manual, I found I was looking at the top of the flat tappet and the very short pushrod that actuates the rocker arm.

Maybe ok news: Per Pete's narrative, my 2012 GRiSO should use the D kit, which doesn't require head removal.  I suppose this means the headers and throttle bodies can stay in place, and only the cam box, camshaft, and flat tappets would have to be removed.  Not certain about how one goes about keeping things timed ...... maybe tying the timing chain to the cam sprocket(?)  This has probably already been described in a previous post.  Any thoughts about average time for a good Guzzi shop to perform this operation using a D kit?

Question: what do you guys think about me calling Blackstone Labs and asking them if they can detect DLC when they perform a used oil analysis?  This might give me and other owners a heads-up as to whether the DLC has begun to delaminate from the tappets.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 09:12:09 AM by ohiorider »
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
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Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2015, 05:01:00 PM »
Keeping the engine timed when installing a B or D kit is easy. Set piston up at TDC compression, relieve the tension on the cam chain and slide the sprocket off the cam and tie it to the breather plate orifice in the head like so.



Look, I'm rollerising Mark's bike on Tuesday. He's good with a camera. Perhaps he could be persuaded to take some pics while I'm doing the swap and I can do a photo essay.

If anyone is interested? If it's just going to precipitate a load of hard-done-by bleating I won't bother.

Pete

Offline Yo Man

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2015, 05:02:06 PM »
That was a nice summary of events that was very helpful to me in understanding this issue. I have a '09 Stelvio with only 12,750 kms on it, of which I've only put about 1,750 in the short time I've owned it. The cement mixer noise has always alarmed me but knowing that it's normal for that engine has allayed the fear that anything is wrong, based only on the noise. I set the valves right after buying the bike and have checked them twice since and they are holding their settings. One thing that does concern me is the tappets do not stick up a uniform length above the surface of the head casting. One of them is almost flush with the surface; I can just catch it with my fingernail. Does this necessarily mean abnormal wear somewhere down below? Thanks in advance.

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2015, 05:05:16 PM »
Oh, and Paul has contacted me and pointed out I got the kit designations mixed up.

The A and D kits are arse-about. D kit for Sport. A kit for late model others.

I have now edited the earlier post to correct this mistake.

Pete
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 08:06:04 PM by Vasco DG »

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2015, 05:50:07 PM »
Look, I'm rollerising Mark's bike on Tuesday. He's good with a camera. Perhaps he could be persuaded to take some pics while I'm doing the swap and I can do a photo essay.

If anyone is interested? If it's just going to precipitate a load of hard-done-by bleating I won't bother.

If it is a C kit, I would be interested in how you keep the cam sprocket/chain in time.
And yes, as always, it will bring about panic the world over.   :violent1:
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 05:51:22 PM by Wayne Orwig »
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Offline MotoG5

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2015, 06:49:47 PM »
Keeping the engine timed when installing a B or D kit is easy. Set piston up at TDC compression, relieve the tension on the cam chain and slide the sprocket off the cam and tie it to the breather plate orifice in the head like so.



Look, I'm rollerising Mark's bike on Tuesday. He's good with a camera. Perhaps he could be persuaded to take some pics while I'm doing the swap and I can do a photo essay.

If anyone is interested? If it's just going to precipitate a load of hard-done-by bleating I won't bother.

Pete
Indeed please bother. I will be dong an NTX 2012 (B Kit). Issue is a done deal. I would be very grateful for a pic guide to aid in getting things done.
Nebraska MGNOC State Rep

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2015, 07:31:54 PM »
Wayne, the timing is super-easy, even if you have to remove the heads.

When the piston is at TDC compression the locating pin for the cam sprocket is at six o'clock, (Working on the principle that the 12-6 axis of your clock is parallel to the bore.) The sprockets have two timing holes marked 'L' and 'R'. Once the pressure is off the tensioner blade you can wriggle the sprocket out of the chain, drop the chain down the tunnel and then pull the camboxes and head.

Once the head is off it is easy to accurately assure the piston is at TDC visually. When you come to re-timing the cam you simply wriggle the sprocket back into the chain and then ratchet it around the teeth until the timing hole aligns with the locating pin, (Which you have ensured is in the six o'clock position.) and you slip the sprocket back onto the cam.

You know the piston is at TDC and if you are out by a tooth it will be blindingly obvious as there aren't that many teeth on the sprocket so if it isn't timed right the peg will be off from that 'Six o'clock' position by a considerable number of degrees, (Sorry, off the top of my head I can't remember the tooth count of the secondary timing sprockets.).

Obviously once you have it back together and the tensioner so loaded up again you run the crank round 720 degrees and re-check it to ensure its right and nothing goes 'Biff' but all in all it is no more difficult or complicated than timing the old pushrod motor. It's just that you do each cylinder separately.

Pete

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2015, 07:48:42 PM »
That was a nice summary of events that was very helpful to me in understanding this issue. I have a '09 Stelvio with only 12,750 kms on it, of which I've only put about 1,750 in the short time I've owned it. The cement mixer noise has always alarmed me but knowing that it's normal for that engine has allayed the fear that anything is wrong, based only on the noise. I set the valves right after buying the bike and have checked them twice since and they are holding their settings. One thing that does concern me is the tappets do not stick up a uniform length above the surface of the head casting. One of them is almost flush with the surface; I can just catch it with my fingernail. Does this necessarily mean abnormal wear somewhere down below? Thanks in advance.

Remember it's a rough, not finished top to the casting. Absolute accuracy cannot be assured and therefore judging wear has to be a holistic decision where you assess based on a number of factors.

 Noise, but this can be a furphy if your engine is an A5! I've never heard another as bad as mine but they can be horribly noisy!

 Performance, especially how the engine behaves during warm up.

 Smell. As the tappets wear they will produce a lot more heat, you can usually smell the cooked oil when you lift a rocker cover. Always go for the 'Sniff Test'! :grin:

Most significantly though it will be the valve clearances.  A happy flat tappet 8V will barely change its clearances in normal service, maybe a thou, at most two, between adjustments. I flog my bike mercilessly and heap neglect upon it and when I remember to check the valves, when it was healthy, I'd rarely have to loosen a locknut! As soon as the DLC starts to go though wear is extremely rapid. After all if you are spinning the crank at even 3,000rpm the tappets are being thwacked 1,500 times a minute. The DLC slurry is like grinding paste! The substrate won't last long, nor the face of the cam! As Wayne found, he re-set his clearances after he found them wide and within 100 miles they were all over the place like a mad woman's breakfast! Once they start to open up its all over, red rover! Time to rollerise.

Pete

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2015, 09:34:49 PM »
For those interested in ancient history here are a few pics from way back when. These are the original chilled cast iron tappets that came out of my engine. At this time, (2009) engines were failing in a couple of thousand miles in the UK. My replacement kit was mislaid and it didn't get fitted until I'd done about 22,000 km and my tappets were just fine!



And here are the gen 1 tappet, (On the right.) next to the gen 2 type. The difference in design and construction is obvious.



Pete




Offline Yo Man

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2015, 09:43:43 PM »
OK, this clarifies things for me! I think, now, that my engine is still ok. Other than the noise and the uneven tappet heights, I don't seem to have any other symptoms. Yet. I may still elect to rollerise it on my own dime. Anyone know what that runs, parts and labour in the US?

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #75 on: September 03, 2015, 10:07:50 PM »
OK, this clarifies things for me! I think, now, that my engine is still ok. Other than the noise and the uneven tappet heights, I don't seem to have any other symptoms. Yet. I may still elect to rollerise it on my own dime. Anyone know what that runs, parts and labour in the US?

Kit A-$999.39 Part # 1A002060

Kit B-$1050.78 Part # 1A002063

Kit C-$1456.00 Part # 1A002082

As I have previously explained though you can make a 'C' kit appreciably cheaper by buying a 'B' kit and the shims, valve stem oil seals, inlet and exhaust gaskets and measuring the head gaskets that come off and simply buying a pair of similar thickness. The 'C' kit contains all three thicknesses of head gasket as well as those extra parts, hence its higher price. If you're doing it on your own dime why buy two pairs of gaskets you don't need? They aren't cheap!

Oh, those prices are from the AF-1 website but I'd imagine that MPH, MI or any of the other reputable suppliers and 'Good' shops will have very similar prices.

Pete

PS. Time depends on what needs to be done.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 10:08:46 PM by Vasco DG »

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #76 on: September 03, 2015, 10:16:59 PM »
Once the pressure is off the tensioner blade you can wriggle the sprocket out of the chain, drop the chain down the tunnel and then pull the camboxes and head.

I figured dropping the chain in the tunnel meant you have to turn the bike upside down and shake it to get it back out.  :undecided:

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Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #77 on: September 03, 2015, 10:32:29 PM »
 :laugh: Nah. You can even leave the sprocket in the chain when you hoick the head off if you want.



Pete

Offline ohiorider

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #78 on: September 04, 2015, 03:31:32 PM »
Is 'Diamond Like Carbon' the official name of the coating on the flat tappets, or is there a commercial name for the product or process of applying the hardening material?  I'd like to have an oil testing lab take a look at mine again, and would like to tell them specifically what to look for.  They weren't familiar with the DLC nomenclature .... suggested it might be some kind of nitride material.  Perhaps if someone has an old flat tappet with some of the hardening material remaining, it could be used as a donor.
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Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #79 on: September 04, 2015, 03:48:02 PM »
I've got shitloads of them Bob but I'm sure you can find someone closer to you with a munted one to donate. AFAIK DLC is what it is called.

Pete

Offline CalVin2007

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #80 on: September 04, 2015, 04:37:44 PM »
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Offline ohiorider

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #81 on: September 04, 2015, 05:13:00 PM »
Thanks for the DLC clarification.  I'll include this info with my next sample to the lab.

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Offline lucian

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #82 on: September 04, 2015, 06:08:11 PM »
I would think that a small oil sample could easily come back negative for dlc even if some had gone missing from the tappets. It could be deposited anywhere within the oil circuit and not necessarily be in solution in the sample. I think the only way to catch a failure in the early stages is due diligence as Pete has described. Pay close attention to valve gaps and breathing behavior such as tb balance and idle behavior. Certainly an oil analysis can't hurt , but it may only show dlc after it is too late. Dave

Offline ohiorider

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #83 on: September 04, 2015, 07:07:01 PM »
I would think that a small oil sample could easily come back negative for dlc even if some had gone missing from the tappets. It could be deposited anywhere within the oil circuit and not necessarily be in solution in the sample. I think the only way to catch a failure in the early stages is due diligence as Pete has described. Pay close attention to valve gaps and breathing behavior such as tb balance and idle behavior. Certainly an oil analysis can't hurt , but it may only show dlc after it is too late. Dave
Dave, you're probably right.  But I'm an old anal-retentive dude who won't be satisfied until I see an analysis.  Only problem is, I put waaay too many miles on my 1200 Sport, and too few on the Griso to really put the oil through its paces.

However, before next oil change, I will send a sample to the lab, along with the documentation provided about DLC, and report here on the results. 

I should do a valve clearance check, since it's been nearly 4000 miles since the last one.

Bob
Main ride:  2008 Guzzi 1200 Sport (sold July 2020)
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Offline lucian

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #84 on: September 05, 2015, 07:07:19 AM »
Well today's the day, I'm gonna roll my own. :grin: Finally a chance for some wrench time to get my griso rollerised, results will be forthcoming.  Dave

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #85 on: September 05, 2015, 08:17:24 AM »
Well today's the day, I'm gonna roll my own. :grin: Finally a chance for some wrench time to get my griso rollerised, results will be forthcoming.  Dave

Note, when I pulled the cam box to inspect mine, I read a blurb on the manual AFTER I pulled the timing sprocket. It warned you that the timing pin could come out of the cam and fall. Everything is fairly straight forward. Don't forget to loosen the two small head bolts BEFORE you loosen the four main bolts.
I'll need to find a valve spring compressor for mine.


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Offline lucian

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #86 on: September 05, 2015, 08:19:34 AM »
Update , left side off and early failure obvious on intake tappet only. About a 2mm dia.  circle of dlc missing dead center on the tappet face. Cam lobes look ok, slightly heat rashed on the nose .  Man am I glad I dug into this now. More to come

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #87 on: September 05, 2015, 03:46:00 PM »
Maybe this should be in a separate thread, but it's a follow on activity to the conversion so I'll mention it here.

Spent today and the best part of a tank of fuel re-mapping the Stelvio after the roller conversion. She's running very nicely again, although the net difference in the map vs. my flat tappet version isn't that big. Looking at the revised numbers, the main thing that I changed was taking OUT some fuel from TP24 upwards. That's the opposite of what I expected, but the first run with the logger on clearly showed that it was running slightly richer (3 to 4%) with the rollers than with the flat tappets at higher throttle positions. I suppose that means the roller profile doesn't quite allow the same airflow? It's only a small difference, but I think it's just about noticeable under hard acceleration. I may be imagining it though, because it still ran up to a true (GPS) 197kmh on a relatively short stretch.

Anyway, the map is in and pretty much spot on with where I wanted the fueling.

John
PS: I'm happy to share the map if anyone needs it.
John

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beetle

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #88 on: September 05, 2015, 04:51:18 PM »
John, that's pretty much what I expected. Pete said it was like hitting a 'brick wall', even though I suspect a wee bit of hyperbole involved in that description, it would be the result of a rich condition.

Vasco DG

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Re: Got rollered!
« Reply #89 on: September 05, 2015, 05:40:41 PM »
Really, no hyperbole Mark, you can take mine out when you're down here and see for yourself.

Strangely enough too rich is what I thought it felt like as it doesn't break down and pop and fart, it just goes dead flat and gives you nothing. Only at wider throttle openings and above about 6,000. At lower RPM it actually feels a bit lean. Logging it will tell us.

Pete
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 06:37:53 PM by Vasco DG »

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