Author Topic: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated  (Read 739 times)

Offline sstone14

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Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« on: September 14, 2021, 09:41:01 AM »
I'm a new rider with a new-to-me 2010 V7 Classic. It's got around 14k miles, about 500 of which I put on. I'm at a point where I definitely need to bring it in for a real, thorough inspection, and have some work done on it, but I want to share what's going on and see how much I can possibly do myself.

Here's the story:

Haven't had any real issues with the bike so far (just a bad battery which I replaced). A few days ago before a long ride, the EOBD light came on and stayed on as I was letting it idle and warm up. I got nervous and decided to ride it to the dealership, but the light went off when I kicked the kickstand, so I decided to go on the ride anyways. Possibly stupid, but I had to get where I was going (not just a leisure ride, but an important obligation).

60 or so miles into the ride, the light came back on, but I had to keep going. It went off again after another 10 or so miles, and I arrived safely. 160 miles total. But I did notice a significantly choppier idle at full stops.

Let it sit upright and cool for a few minutes, checked the oil, and the oil seemed good--pretty new, good color, good level.

But now, turning on the electrical, I'm getting the MAINT code, and the engine oil pressure warning light is staying on for longer than usual, before turning off, this even though the last routine maintenance was performed at the dealership less than 1k miles ago.

A couple days later I have to ride 160 miles back home. I get the MAINT code, but I just need to get home, so I start the ride and plan to deal with everything when I'm back. Bike is performing wonderfully, no EOBD light at all, but about 70 miles in, the engine dies while coasting after revving all the way down in 2nd and pulling in the clutch, and I get the red engine oil pressure light on again. Luckily I slip into a parking lot, shut everything down, and the bike restarts. I don't feel great about it, but still, I have to get home, so I keep riding.

The engine is still idling choppily at stops, where previously it was a very smooth, even, good-sounding idle, and here and there it sounds like it wants to quit. So I open the choke just a tiny bit to give it enough fuel so that it keeps idling evenly and doesn't quit on me again, and ride with it open like that.

In gear and in motion, it's riding pretty well--no real problems, but I'm starting to feel like it's underperforming, revving down when I'm not actually closing the throttle, making less power than it was before at certain RPMs, but I have no clue whether or not this is just in my head.

I ride the rest of the way home, 90 more miles, with the choke just a tiny bit open, and get there safely with no other issues.

Today I have to move the bike for street sweeping. It starts up but the choke is now stuck. I can't move it open at all: the actual lever seems blocked or stuck somehow, no clue how or why.

And that's where we currently stand. Any insight or help into the engine and choke issues would be much appreciated. And I thank you if you made it through this whole post. I know I'll have to bring it in either way, I just want to understand what's going on and learn how to be a better rider and motorcycle owner.

Thanks, y'all.
'10 V7 Classic

Offline bettythebear

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2021, 09:47:59 AM »
I'm by no means an expert, but I do have a 2011 v7.

The "choke" isn't actually a choke. All it does is raise the idle speed, not adjust the fuel going in.

Our bikes have two throttle bodies, and can be a pain because of that. I have a great dealer do my service, and that includes balancing the TB's. I know that my bike starts to run rougher when they are not running perfectly in sync. When they have been freshly adjusted, I can get the bike started without even touching the idle adjustment lever, it's awesome.
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Offline Kev m

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2021, 09:54:53 AM »
Years ago there were two service bulletins about the V7C and the Check Engine (EOBD) light illumination, but they both predated the 2010 model so I'd hope they wouldn't be an issue.

But for the record:

TECHNICAL NOTE No. 012-2008 21-11-2008 - called for

"This irregular illumination of the warning light is caused by an electrical interference
between the timing sensor cable and the vehicle coil cable, but this does not compromise
adequate vehicle functioning in any manner.
By connecting Axone (or Navigator) to the relevant diagnostics socket, the “power latch”,
“microprocessor” or “battery voltage” errors, which are caused by this interference, can be
displayed.
In order to solve this problem, check that the timing sensor cable is properly positioned and
if required, adjust it. The cable should be laid as shown in the picture below.


TIMING SENSOR SYSTEM POSITION
CLAMP THE TIMING SENSOR SYSTEM WITH THE GENERATOR SYSTEM, THE
REGULATOR SYSTEM, THE HORN SYSTEM AND ITS LEFT CABLE TO THE CHASSIS
CROSS-MEMBER (PICTURE 1).

CLAMP THE TIMING SENSOR CONNECTOR TO THE CHASSIS LEFT SIDE BY
PLACING IT AS FAR AS POSSIBLE FROM THE COIL AND THE SPARK PLUG
CABLES (PICTURE 2).

The cable has been properly positioned at the factory from chassis number
ZGULW00058111561
You are reminded that no electrical component of the vehicle (ECU, timing sensor, coil or
battery) needs to be replaced to solve this problem; if the problem continues even after
repositioning the cable, please, contact Moto Guzzi Help Desk."

Though I guess it's possible that if the factory wire routing was disturbed this problem could surface again.

There was also

ERVICE BULLETIN NUMBER 008-2009 15/10/2009
TOPIC:

"SUBJECT: faulty illumination of the amber coloured EFI warning light on the instrument panel
Dear Dealer,
In addition to the technical bulletin no. 12 of the year 2008 dated 21/11/2008, please be informed that from the Axone 7.0.4 release, available and downloadable starting from 15/09/2009 (or from the Navigator 6.0.0 release), it is possible to reprogramme the vehicle's control unit by selecting the REPROGRAMMING function and choosing V7NEVAD mapping.
This new map solves the faulty illumination problem of the amber coloured warning light on the instrument panel (number 5 in the figure).
We therefore ask you to perform this operation during the predelivery phase on all vehicles still in your stock and on all motorcycles that go through your workshop for routine maintenance.
A list of chassis numbers follows of the last vehicles, divided by model, still being produced with the old map: if a vehicle with a chassis number higher than those listed below happens to come into your workshop, this remapping is useless as the new map is already in the control unit.
Page 1 of 2
WWW.SERVICEMOTOGUZZ I.COM
V7 Cafè ZGULWC012AM111677
V7 CLASSIC ZGULW00069M113529
NEVADA 750 ZGULMG0079M111528"

Maybe yours was never remapped.

If it's not either of these I'd want to poke around the harness and check the codes for a starting point.

On the Maintenance light, it's illuminated by the dash based solely on mileage. It can't be reset until it comes on, and resetting it is easy at home. But the shop couldn't have reset it ahead of time. It also means nothing, since it is just a timer set to go off by mileage and doesn't come on because of faults.

On the oil light, I would want to confirm oil pressure is good, but loose wires, and sticky sensors are common enough that it's probably fine.

On the shut downs, I might look at the kick stand safety switch as a loose switch, mounting, or bad connection could do that and what causes it to cut one second can be "fixed" the next second by the right bump.

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Offline bettythebear

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2021, 09:58:45 AM »
lol. Kev, the TSB you just listed from 2008 says to call the Moto Guzzi Help Desk. For some reason all I can picture is a tiny table with an old rotary phone on it, that's not even plugged in.
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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2021, 09:58:45 AM »

Offline Kev m

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2021, 10:03:35 AM »
lol. Kev, the TSB you just listed from 2008 says to call the Moto Guzzi Help Desk. For some reason all I can picture is a tiny table with an old rotary phone on it, that's not even plugged in.

Ha ha, yeah, if it ever existed lol.

Just mentioning the old TSBs to show there's a history of an intermittent CE light on them and mention a couple of things to check - map is up to date, harness routing it good etc.
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jwinwi

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2021, 12:12:37 PM »
Welcome to WG and good on you for trying to do as much as you can on your own. Unfortunately I know nothing about the newer bikes but it doesn't seem like you have a major problem on your hands. Seems like your bike needs a thorough tune up. Also, if you tell us where you are folks can recommend the best dealer to take it to - or the one you don't want working on your bike...
Cheers,
John Wendt in Wisconsin

Offline malik

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2021, 03:32:49 PM »
I keep typing out advice, only to have the iPad &/or the mobile broadband redraw the screen & wipe the lot, so I Will try doing it in small bites.

First, fix the choke/fast idle. It may not be strictly necessary but it's easy enough to do & then doesn't interfere with anything else.

Mal

2010 V7 Classic, 2014 V7 Special
1996 1100 Sport Carb (in NZ), 2004 V11 LeMans (in UK)
Carberry Enfield V-Twin, 2008 Royal Enfield Electra, 2006 RE Electra 535

Offline malik

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2021, 03:39:35 PM »
The MAINT on the dash is purely a function of the odometer service interval - turns up every 7,500km for me (? What? about 4,667 miles for you?). To get rid of it, press the left hand button on the dash when switch on the ignition, leaving the pressure on til the legend disappears. It the should not come on again until the odometer passes the next service interval.
2010 V7 Classic, 2014 V7 Special
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Offline malik

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2021, 03:49:19 PM »
Check the spark system. The plug caps can break down. New ones are cheap for the 2TB bikes. Corrosion can accumulate on the copper at the cap ends of the HT wires. Check them. Change the plugs - it's hard to find hairline cracks in the porcelain, that can cause sudden rough running

Reset the ECU. If you don't have Guzzidiag, leave the negative terminal off for, say, 15 minutes, before reattaching and trying again. While you are there, lube the battery terminals and tabs with Vaseline. Tighten the screws.
2010 V7 Classic, 2014 V7 Special
1996 1100 Sport Carb (in NZ), 2004 V11 LeMans (in UK)
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Offline malik

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2021, 03:58:49 PM »
Work towards doing a throttle body balance. The 2TB (2 throttle body) V7's really do well with one of these occasionally. Start with resetting the tappets.

I find Guzzigiag useful, sometimes it even lists something going wrong in its error log. (Not always, & not often, but it does eliminate possibilities.

Note that bad fuel can also result in rough running.

Check that the air filter is clean (yes, it's a pain to get at). Wipe out the air box with paper towels.
2010 V7 Classic, 2014 V7 Special
1996 1100 Sport Carb (in NZ), 2004 V11 LeMans (in UK)
Carberry Enfield V-Twin, 2008 Royal Enfield Electra, 2006 RE Electra 535

Offline malik

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2021, 04:27:42 PM »
I have had at various times all the symptoms you list. The difficulty is often in identifying the fix the solved the problem. I just kept working through the possibilities. I found it best to start at the beginning, with the simple, cheap and all too obvious. Jumping immediately into the esoteric & expensive is often just a waste of time, effort & money.
It does pay to exhaust the free & cheap options first. The sort mantra - air - fuel - spark - actually works.

I do note that some of these similar symptoms did disappear once I replaced the oil pressure sensor. That's the one that sits in the V between the cylinders. It seems like it took a while to fail completely, and it could have been the cause of intermittent oil warning lights while it was doing so.

Study the Service Manual. It can be a pain, but it can be helpful too.

Good luck.

Mal


2010 V7 Classic, 2014 V7 Special
1996 1100 Sport Carb (in NZ), 2004 V11 LeMans (in UK)
Carberry Enfield V-Twin, 2008 Royal Enfield Electra, 2006 RE Electra 535

Offline Bob Wegman

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2021, 08:52:47 PM »
My 2010 Classic had all the instrument lights flashing, and engine dying when the two yellow wires to the voltage regulator overheated and melted the connector.  Easy to check.
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Offline John A

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2021, 10:28:17 PM »
Do the engine rpms drop much when you pull the clutch lever at a stop?
John
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Offline sstone14

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2021, 07:21:32 AM »
Do the engine rpms drop much when you pull the clutch lever at a stop?

Indeed they do.
'10 V7 Classic

Offline John A

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2021, 09:53:59 AM »
It is a symptom of the fatal small block crankshaft thrust washer failure. There is a two piece half moon shaped thrust bearing that sits in the block that are on both sides of a flange on the rear of the crank to control fore and aft movement. If they are defective, when you pull the clutch lever it moves the crankshaft forward, squeezing it against the block and slowing the engine down.  For small blocks with a timing hole you can visually see the amount by sticking a screwdriver in the hole and prying the flywheel aft , then pulling the clutch which pushes it forward. Engine off of course. Any more than maybe a millimeter means trouble. Without a timing hole maybe you can remove the alternator cover and push the alternator aft then pull the lever.  I’ve only had it on a ‘86 V65, there was a few that evidently left the factory with mismade half moons installed. They were too long so when the block halves were put together it deformed them. The symptoms were that it would run fine but would kill when you came to a stop and pull the clutch lever. If it is the problem it is best not to run it until it’s fixed. If you catch it before it chews up the black and crank maybe you can get by with replacing the bearings. It will run to failure if you let it and then it takes a block repair and a crank weld up on the flange, both of which are troublesome.
John
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Offline Kev m

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2021, 11:33:11 AM »
John A,

If that turns out to be the trouble, is there any recourse under some kind of extended warranty? Or, was Guzzi only taking care of certain years and original owners?

Secondly, was that issue not confined to the V7II's within a range of serial numbers? I'm thinking a 2010 would not have had this issue, but what do I know.

John Henry

I can't say about the earlier ones but in the case of the V7II's it was a bad batch of crankshafts that were machined undersized at the factory so the thrust bearings (which WERE properly installed) would move/fall out of place. Jim Hamlin was kind enough to show me a couple of disassembled motors with the bad cranks when I was there with Cam one time. So the V7II's were clearly a factory defect.

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Offline John A

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2021, 11:46:21 AM »
I’ve got no idea on warranty, mine was past the warranty when I figured it out, I thought is was a tuning problem for a while and it was my wife’s ride so I didn’t ride it much. I don’t know if they changed anything on the later small blocks,   they added some oil holes I think, which is what I did. That part was easy, just drilled into the main bearing oil feed. I had to pin the thrust bearing in place because it had damaged the area that was sposed to hold it in place. A crankshaft repair place was able to weld up and regrind the flange. It’s nitrided so it looked ugly but I figured the pockets would hold some oil. That bike has over 30k miles on it now so it was a successful repair. If I was to do it today, I would just get an engine from a wreck. There weren’t many small blocks around when I did it which was at least twenty years ago. Maybe thirty
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 11:56:05 AM by John A »
John
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It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled-Mark Twain

jwinwi

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2021, 12:37:59 PM »
Welcome to WG and good on you for trying to do as much as you can on your own. Unfortunately I know nothing about the newer bikes but it doesn't seem like you have a major problem on your hands. Seems like your bike needs a thorough tune up. Also, if you tell us where you are folks can recommend the best dealer to take it to - or the one you don't want working on your bike...
Cheers,
John Wendt in Wisconsin

sstone14,
Sorry for my stupidly optimistic reply.   :embarrassed:
John A knows his stuff and I remember these symptoms being a problem with some of the modern V7s but don't remember which ones...

Online SmithSwede

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2021, 05:03:17 PM »
I can't say about the earlier ones but in the case of the V7II's it was a bad batch of crankshafts that were machined undersized at the factory so the thrust bearings (which WERE properly installed) would move/fall out of place. Jim Hamlin was kind enough to show me a couple of disassembled motors with the bad cranks when I was there with Cam one time. So the V7II's were clearly a factory defect.

Thanks for the update Kev.  I had previously understood the problem was the thrust washers were omitted on assembly.   Hmm—crank was undersize.   I can understand omitting a few washers occasionally, but how do you cut multiple cranks too short?
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Offline Kev m

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2021, 05:30:48 PM »
Thanks for the update Kev.  I had previously understood the problem was the thrust washers were omitted on assembly.   Hmm—crank was undersize.   I can understand omitting a few washers occasionally, but how do you cut multiple cranks too short?

I'm not a machinist but I believe the difference was small enough to go unchecked/unnoticed at assembly and then over a short amount of time the thrust bearing would shift/come out of place, block an oil passage or two, and wear would start to occur.

Hmmm, not I'm trying to remember if it was undersize or oversize. No matter, let's go with "slightly out of spec."
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Offline sstone14

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2021, 10:00:55 AM »
I keep typing out advice, only to have the iPad &/or the mobile broadband redraw the screen & wipe the lot, so I Will try doing it in small bites.

First, fix the choke/fast idle. It may not be strictly necessary but it's easy enough to do & then doesn't interfere with anything else.

Mal

Thanks so much for the feedback. Any tips on how exactly I should begin going about this?
'10 V7 Classic

Offline twowheeladdict

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2021, 10:05:00 AM »
It is a symptom of the fatal small block crankshaft thrust washer failure. There is a two piece half moon shaped thrust bearing that sits in the block that are on both sides of a flange on the rear of the crank to control fore and aft movement. If they are defective, when you pull the clutch lever it moves the crankshaft forward, squeezing it against the block and slowing the engine down.  For small blocks with a timing hole you can visually see the amount by sticking a screwdriver in the hole and prying the flywheel aft , then pulling the clutch which pushes it forward. Engine off of course. Any more than maybe a millimeter means trouble. Without a timing hole maybe you can remove the alternator cover and push the alternator aft then pull the lever.  I’ve only had it on a ‘86 V65, there was a few that evidently left the factory with mismade half moons installed. They were too long so when the block halves were put together it deformed them. The symptoms were that it would run fine but would kill when you came to a stop and pull the clutch lever. If it is the problem it is best not to run it until it’s fixed. If you catch it before it chews up the black and crank maybe you can get by with replacing the bearings. It will run to failure if you let it and then it takes a block repair and a crank weld up on the flange, both of which are troublesome.

Many bikes die when the clutch lever is pulled in for multiple reasons.  He definitely needs to eliminate all other possibilities for jumping to this conclusion. 
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Offline malik

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2021, 11:02:26 AM »
Thanks so much for the feedback. Any tips on how exactly I should begin going about this?

The fast idle/choke cable connects at the bottom to a sprung butterfly (?) under the RH throttle body. There's a screw that clamps the cable to be undone. If the plastic tubular stopper is still on the end of the cable, (usually long gone before you ever get around to looking at it) that will have to come off. Pull the cable out of its stop. Don't lose the other little bit. (See the parts manual). I'd then take the LH switch block apart, disconnect the cable at the top. check that the cable slides easily in its sheath, and that none of the strands are broken or frayed (not all that uncommon). Clean up the channel in the switch block assembly, grease the nipple, and reassemble the switch block. The cable will have to be threaded through again. Ensure that it runs free & is hot interfered with, especially by the movement of the rod joining the throttle bodies. Thread the cable end through the hole & clamp with the bolt. Check the choke action, adjust until satisfactory. Once it seems to be working fine once more, you could melt some fine shrink wrap over the last half inch of the cable after the bolt - helps keep the end in & help prevent the end fraying.
Taking it apart & putting in back together is all pretty simple & obvious. Just take it easy, keep everything very clean, take your time & it should be fine. If at anytime it all gets too much, take a break, have a cuppa, a beer or other tipple of your choice, & get back to it later. Hey, it's a Guzzi. Do note that I keep a spare of each cable in my kit - never know when they are needed, & if on hand I don't have to wait. Saves much angst.
2010 V7 Classic, 2014 V7 Special
1996 1100 Sport Carb (in NZ), 2004 V11 LeMans (in UK)
Carberry Enfield V-Twin, 2008 Royal Enfield Electra, 2006 RE Electra 535

Offline John A

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Re: Handful of issues with V7 Classic--any insight much appreciated
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2021, 12:33:52 PM »
Many bikes die when the clutch lever is pulled in for multiple reasons.  He definitely needs to eliminate all other possibilities for jumping to this conclusion.



Absolutely, however  it’s very easy to check by observation of crankshaft thrust as I previously described
John
MGNOC L-471
It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled-Mark Twain


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