Author Topic: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100  (Read 13890 times)

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2017, 03:42:12 PM »
I was afraid I was providing WG with erroneous info regarding rpm @ xx mph, so I posted to the CB1100 forum and asked if 2750rpm in 6th gear at 60mph was correct, and one of the moderators sent me the following info.  Each had an accompanying dash photo which I didn't include here:

MPH  Gear  Rpm
55     6TH   2500
60     6TH   2750
65     6TH   3000
70     6TH   3250
75     6TH   3500
80     6TH   3750

Bob
That'll do me Bob. That's extraordinary.

Offline Kiwi Dave

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2017, 05:33:21 PM »
It sounds like a nice motor, sorta tuned like a twin. Hmmm

I'm curious to know how it is tuned like a twin.  Do both sets of pistons reaching TDC together fire together (as opposed to the conventional one on compression, one on exhaust stroke), or is there some sort of crossplane crankshaft arrangement?

I did a Google search, but just got confused.

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2017, 05:51:10 PM »
I'm curious to know how it is tuned like a twin.  Do both sets of pistons reaching TDC together fire together (as opposed to the conventional one on compression, one on exhaust stroke), or is there some sort of crossplane crankshaft arrangement?

I did a Google search, but just got confused.
Unless you're fishing Kiwi Dave, I think he meant that the engine is "tuned" to produce max torque at relatively low revs, but that's not cast in stone either. I don't see how an engine can produce more or less torque with an alteration in the firing INTERVALS . Each piston con rod assy is acting independently on the crank throw so I'm left wondering, but anyway hold on KD 'cos there'll be answers ahead !

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2017, 06:13:48 PM »
I'm assuming you're not both just being obtuse but instead we're having a difference over a colloquialism.

Tuned in the vernacular is not only used to denote the old maintenance procedures of ignition timing/spark adjustment etc., but also carries the more comprehensive meaning of sum total of all parts from camshaft(s), heads/valves, and the rest of the components that effect power from intake to exhaust.

That is you can "tune" a motor and change some characteristics of it's power delivery by changing camshafts, head/valve configurations, intakes, exhausts etc.

And the factory picked combinations and as such "tuned" it to feel/act this way.

So perhaps it would be better to use a more exact term like "designed" but that was certainly the intention.

I.E. to suggest that the motor sounds like it has a nice flat torque curve from low revs onward as opposed to more peaky power and might feel more like a stereotypical twin than the stereotypical L4.

But it was a lot quicker just to say it like I did.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 06:23:00 PM by Kev m »
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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2017, 06:13:48 PM »

Offline Kiwi Dave

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2017, 07:36:15 PM »
Not intending to be obtuse, Kev.  Just trying to understand how a four can emulate a twin.

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2017, 08:07:56 PM »
A twin is throwing around a lot more weight (i.e. bigger pistons/longer throw) so it's understandable you get good torque at lower revs and you can't push them as fast (upper revs) or bad things happen. Four bangers usually have less reciprocating weight in comparison, so revs can be increased and torque usually happens higher in its range. I think what most of us would like to understand is how this engine design differs from most fours. It simply defies my logic of a typical 1100cc four.
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2017, 08:23:33 PM »
I think what most of us would like to understand is how this engine design differs from most fours. It simply defies my logic of a typical 1100cc four.

It's very common for 4-cylinder Japanese bikes to have very good low and midrange torque.  I recently rode a friend's Yamaha FZ6R, and it had amazingly good low end torque, and didn't require high revs for good acceleration.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2017, 05:12:44 AM »
It's very common for 4-cylinder Japanese bikes to have very good low and midrange torque.  I recently rode a friend's Yamaha FZ6R, and it had amazingly good low end torque, and didn't require high revs for good acceleration.
How Jim?  Explain the physics of an inline with redline to 1500RPM and one only to 8500RPM. I'm thinking it must be throw or weight?
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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2017, 08:20:27 AM »
Not intending to be obtuse, Kev.  Just trying to understand how a four can emulate a twin.

Then you're asking a question above my pay grade.

It's just been my experience (granted, my experience is much more limited with L4s than with twins) that most twins seem to make more torque down low with less peaky power while more L4s that I've experienced seem to make less torque down low and more peaky power therefore requiring somewhat higher revs than a twin. But it's all relative, Guzzi twins and Ducati twins spinning faster than say a Harley BT, then again a Harley Sportster spins faster than a Harley BT.

Perhaps Triple Jim is suggesting that my understanding of L4s is too limited and that there are more that make decent torque down low than I know or believe. That may very well be true, so I too am listening and I'm willing to learn.
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2017, 08:25:36 AM »
How Jim?  Explain the physics of an inline with redline to 1500RPM and one only to 8500RPM. I'm thinking it must be throw or weight?

Cam timing, fuel injection, port sizes, etc..  The FX6R's maximum torque is at 8,500 RPM, and the redline is 11,500.  The torque is pretty flat from 4,000 to 10,000.  It's not a race-tuned engine, it's a sports touring type tuning.  Bore and stroke is 65.5 x 44.5 mm, but those numbers aren't everything.

And that engine is smooth!  Ride an FZ6R or one like it sometime and see what you think.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 08:35:21 AM by Triple Jim »
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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2017, 08:46:00 AM »
Had my stock '97 Bandit dyno'ed back in the day but can't find the readout.  Lots of low-end torque, HP steadily increasing to 10k redline.  No lugging down low.  More of the classic twin feel like Kev describes.
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Offline steven c

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2017, 08:49:43 AM »
 I remenber my friends FJ1100's pulled like a freight train.
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Offline kevdog3019

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2017, 10:43:14 AM »
Would cam timing be earlier to get a bigger "thrust" on a piston at say TDC?  If later I could see inertia already taking it down, then it fires, and it creates speed but not thrust. We know speed is possible with a four with great ease, but low thrust (torque) and speed (higher RPM's) seem to offset each other.
Explain the firing (cam timing) and I'll wrap my head around it.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 10:44:26 AM by kevdog3019 »
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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2017, 01:05:01 PM »
Smaller intake tracts creating higher mixture velocity, heavier flywheel smoothing and storing energy, cam profiles incorporating less lift and overlap...all these things push a power band to lower revs whether it's a four, a triple, a twin, or a single. The Honda doesn't emulate a twin; just a twin's most common operating configuration.
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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2017, 01:32:25 PM »
I'm assuming you're not both just being obtuse but instead we're having a difference over a colloquialism.


I'm not qualified to say if you're right or not Kev, but I understood your point. I was floating the argument that torque increase is derived from manipulation of factors affecting the cylinder's performance and not the intervals in which they fire. I'd love to hear the argument that says a big bang four has more torque than a conventially fired at one every 180 deg. I have heard people with more engineering accumen than me say it though.

Offline Triple Jim

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2017, 02:16:14 PM »
I'd love to hear the argument that says a big bang four has more torque than a conventially fired at one every 180 deg.

I don't believe that for a second.  They sound cool though.
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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2017, 03:07:51 PM »
Aren't firing intervals on a Harley integral to the reasons they make so much torque so low on the range, like 2k on?
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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2017, 03:10:18 PM »
The Honda doesn't emulate a twin; just a twin's most common operating configuration.

I think we're covering more semantics (sure the majority doesn't = integral characteristic, but still if it's a characteristic that applies to most then that's what's generally expected so could safely expect to draw the comparison) but I get the point.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 04:57:55 PM by Kev m »
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2017, 03:12:54 PM »
Aren't firing intervals on a Harley integral to the reasons they make so much torque so low on the range, like 2k on?

No, the long stroke and low RPM tuning is the reason.  The firing interval is just an anomaly of the single pin design.
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Offline Kiwi Dave

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2017, 03:16:57 PM »
Aren't firing intervals on a Harley integral to the reasons they make so much torque so low on the range, like 2k on?

Harleys just appear to have lots of torque down low because they require a heavy flywheel because of the inherent unbalance and firing pattern.  It reduces quickly as the revs increase, necessitating a gear change.  A Guzzi motor has a much flatter torque curve that is maintained through the rev range.

Not Harley bashing, I owned one for nine years.

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2017, 03:42:43 PM »
CB mileage:  Not nearly as much fun as the ongoing discussion about engine configs, etc, but prior to a ride today, I'd taken time to read up on why the last segment on the fuel gauge (a horizontal, multi-segment bar) began flashing.  Remembered it was telling me I had 'x' amount of fuel left.  Only problem was, I couldn't remember what 'x' was.  So rather than run out of fuel on the last leg home with few pull offs, decided to stop and read (again) the Owner's Manual re fuel gauge.

I had noted that the last segment began flashing at approx. 150 miles, indicating reserve.

Per the manual, I had about .9 of a gallon in reserve.  Another number had popped up (45) telling me I had that amount of miles left before running out of fuel.

Not too bad ..... not V7 or 1200 Sport range, but in the 175-180 miles per fill-up.  I believe the tank holds 3.9 gallons US
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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2017, 04:40:32 PM »

No, the long stroke and low RPM tuning is the reason.  The firing interval is just an anomaly of the single pin design.

I guess if I think about it why should it matter if the during interval is staggered or even if both cylinders fire once every 720° that shouldn't increase or decrease torque, yes?

Guess I failed to question one too many garage "engineers".


Harleys just appear to have lots of torque down low because they require a heavy flywheel because of the inherent unbalance and firing pattern.  It reduces quickly as the revs increase, necessitating a gear change.  A Guzzi motor has a much flatter torque curve that is maintained through the rev range.

Not Harley bashing, I owned one for nine years.

I'm not sure I accept those statements.

There's no question from the dyno charts I've checked that Harleys produce a lot of torque and it starts down low.

Just compare the dyno for an 883 to a V7 or FZ6.

Or take a look at a 1200 Sporty torque comes on big and down low.

I don't recall any Tonti Calis having similar torque numbers even if their charts were relatively flat.


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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #82 on: April 18, 2017, 02:34:57 AM »
There's a guy here in Victoria called Brad Black, an acknowledged expert. I'd be surprised if Roper doesn't know him. He told me once that an R1 Yamaha has more peak torque than a biggish Harley. Albeit at a monumentally higher figure, but anyway it's probably an easy thing to research, I never bothered.

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2017, 02:49:51 AM »
There's a guy here in Victoria called Brad Black, an acknowledged expert. I'd be surprised if Roper doesn't know him. He told me once that an R1 Yamaha has more peak torque than a biggish Harley. Albeit at a monumentally higher figure, but anyway it's probably an easy thing to research, I never bothered.
That wouldn't surprise me at all, the key being the monumentally high rpm and the litany of differences in engine design.

A quick check of Google shows Cycle World rated a 2016 R1 at 73 ft lbs and a 2016 1200 Sporty at 68 ft lbs. But the Sporty peak came around 3500 rpm while the R1 peak came in at close the 3x higher rpm.

The HP peak on the R1 came at more than double the rpm of the Sporty as well, but of course it also made more than double (hell approaching triple) the HP of the Sporty.

It's hard to believe they are both the same type of machine (they're both motorcycles but the similarities end there lol).

Of course the late model Indian or Harley big twins are making over 100 ft lbs by 2500 rpm to take the design priority to the other end of the scale.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 03:08:13 AM by Kev m »
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2017, 08:49:09 AM »
Here's the torque curve of a Suzuki Hayabusa.  It doesn't come on quite as low as the big twins, but it sure is broader.  I've heard descriptions like "will rip your arms out of their sockets".  Considering the relatively light weight of the bike, I bet it feels that way.

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2017, 08:51:59 AM »
Here's the torque curve of a Suzuki Hayabusa.  It doesn't come on quite as low as the big twins, but it sure is broader.

Wouldn't it have to be broader with double the rpm range.  [emoji23]
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 10:41:22 AM by Kev m »
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Offline Kiwi Dave

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2017, 03:24:41 PM »
There's no question from the dyno charts I've checked that Harleys produce a lot of torque and it starts down low.
Just compare the dyno for an 883 to a V7 or FZ6.
Or take a look at a 1200 Sporty torque comes on big and down low.
I don't recall any Tonti Calis having similar torque numbers even if their charts were relatively flat.


Let's compare a couple of Harley big blocks with the California 1400.





The claimed torque curve (looks fairly flat to me right across the rev range)





And in case you think this is manufacturer's propaganda, here's a dyno reading of my California 1400 (stock is shown in blue).




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Like I explained earlier, taking off at a traffic light on my Cali 1400 with a big block Harley beside me, we ride side by side.  But the Harley runs out of ooph, and has to change gear.  Then as he's changing into third, I change into second and it's all over.

Have you ever ridden a Cali 1400, Kev?


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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2017, 03:47:42 PM »



Have you ever ridden a Cali 1400, Kev?

Yup, rode a Custom as soon as it came out. And dozens of other BTs from Harley, Victory, and Indian.

What was the point again?

Wait a 4V/cylinder Guzzi makes more power (but less torque in some cases) than an average late-model BT?

I hope that wasn't the point cause that's not what I was disagreeing with.

I was disagreeing that Harleys only "appear" to make lots of torque down low, and the suggestion that somehow a Guzzi motor (you didn't say Cali 1400 in that statement) blanket has a flatter torque curve than a Harley BT.

That's too broad a statement, there's too many variations of both Guzzi motors and BTs.

The anecdote of outrunning one or two means little, especially since I wasn't talking drag races but simply feel and torque down low.

I wonder what a 4V/Cylinder Harley BT curve looks like.
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Offline Darren Williams

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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2017, 05:20:11 PM »
As a general rule I was always taught long stroke equals high low end torque and lower revs.  Short stroke equals power in the upper rev range and higher revving motors.  Some data...

CBR600RR bore is 1.57 times the stroke
Breva 1200 Sport bore is 1.17 times the stroke
CB1100 bore is 1.09 times the stroke
XL1200R bore is .92 time the stroke

Of course intake length, cam lift and duration, head shape, number of valves, spark timing, exhaust restriction, and fly wheel size among other things can change characteristics to a point. But basic engine architecture is the starting point. Personally I like an over squared bore x stroke motor that will give me some revs. because I don't like short shifting as a general rule. The above number show why I like the 1200 Sport V twin motor so well. They love to rev!
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Re: NGC - Tomorrow will tell the tale ...CB1100
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2017, 06:39:10 PM »
As a general rule I was always taught long stroke equals high low end torque and lower revs.  Short stroke equals power in the upper rev range and higher revving motors.  Some data...

CBR600RR bore is 1.57 times the stroke
Breva 1200 Sport bore is 1.17 times the stroke
CB1100 bore is 1.09 times the stroke
XL1200R bore is .92 time the stroke

Of course intake length, cam lift and duration, head shape, number of valves, spark timing, exhaust restriction, and fly wheel size among other things can change characteristics to a point. But basic engine architecture is the starting point. Personally I like an over squared bore x stroke motor that will give me some revs. because I don't like short shifting as a general rule. The above number show why I like the 1200 Sport V twin motor so well. They love to rev!
Thanks for that info!
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