Any fans of "Zen and the art of m/c maintenance"? I could use some here pls

[izzug otom]

Firstly thanks for dropping in here.

I've been having issues with my 95 Cali carb model.

It started cutting out when grabbing a quick handful throttle. The problem is worse when under load.

The carbs had got gunked up through leaving shitty fuel in the tank with the fuel taps turned on ............ Yeah, I know, tell me about it, doh!

However the damaged fuel filters inside the tank attached to then manual fuel taps have been replaced, as has the needle valves and accelerator pumps, banjo filters, O rings gakets and fibre washers etc. I've removed all the jets, atomisers etc and thoroughly cleaned everything. All jets are as stock, with the exception of the 'standard'(?) swap up to 268 atomiser from the stock 266.

I've sych'd the throttle slidesand madesure no cables are tight to the throttle and choke.

I was first looking at it being a over rich problem as the carbs inner airstream passages were blackened along with sooty black plugs, one a bit worse than the other.

The left hand side cylinder was running distinctly cooler than the right, thus apprently running richer, and the wet carb and plug made it look to be a lot richer too.

I tried it with the airfilter (which is clean) disconnected, but it made very little difference if any to the running of the bike.

On a large car park just near me I've been popping it back after testing. I must have had the carbs off and dismantled 15 times or more this past couple of weeks. Anyways, when giving a sudden handful of throttle, instead of jumping into life with the beautiful and typical low end grunt of a Guzzi, the engine does the opposite and fails to respond and fades. This doesn't happen everytime though, it varies in frequency from every fourth grab of the throttle to every other grab.

Now for something my Zen is nudging me about is that this may be an electrical issue, one that is affected when the engine is under sudden load. Then low and behold I found my mains wires going to where my ignition barrel should be, but it's missing since it was stolen and the toerags fucked the ign. barrel up, the winter before last. I had my ignition barrel mounted in a simple ally box along with the dash lights (getting rid of the aging plastic look). I never did replace the ign barrel and just have two wires there that I hook together via a solid electrical spade connecter. to bring the girl to life.

I know they call it hotwiring, but when I went to pull the connecters apart at the end of fairly short test rides, thus breaking the ignition circuit, I noticed the live wires I'm hooking up are getting quite hot to the touch.

So is this a clue to the issue I'm having, and that perhaps it's not running rich after all, but poor ignition performance under load?

So anyway, I tried the suddenly satching a handfull with the choke on, in half the maximum of the choke lever, despite the engine being warmed up,  and it improved the running considerably, though not perfect. It feels like the issue comes into play when the throttle around 1/8 to 1/4 and when opening up. If I just hold the revs steady around that area, the engine will start to struggle.

So firstly, why would my ignition hotwiring be getting hot guys, any ideas. I have say that electrics isn't my hottest subject. Would it be that something isn't earthing well somewhere.

The battery is charging at a good rate, 13.7 to 14v.

I'd very much a

I'd really very much appreciate any pointers here from the Zen brigade.

If I've left anything out of the equasion here and you want any more information etc, please fire any questions my way.

Thanks in advance, Izzug

[Chuck in Indiana]

It sounds like your using the choke test is saying, "more fuel, grasshopper."  Possibly your carb overhaul is suspect?
the hot hot wire  I'm certainly no expert on that, but I would think there is a loose/corroded connection somewhere.

[drbone641]

You must first, start here.

[John A]

Sometimes if there is more than one problem it can be hard to diagnose. I once bought an 850T that ran rough. It had an idle jet with crud and a worn insulation spot on a coil wire.

[izzug otom]

Mmmmm ...... Zen.

My carb overhaul was suspect but it ain't anymore.

It's appearing as if it's rich with wetcarbs , particularly on the left, even though I know it's not the case from the "choke test".

So I suspect the ignition is failing, particularly when under sudden load, and as a result not burning the fuel up, leaving it wet. Fair assumption no?

So I need to follow some wires and maybe test the coils, but can't find my friggin multi meter anywhere. I do have 2 spare coils, which I was pleased about when I saw the £90 per coil price tag ............ Jeez!!

I'll check stuff out and report back. I just assumed the Guzzista would be all over this with some well thought out (Zen) possibilities, and maybe common faults that have caused a similar complaint in the past, as I'm sure my Cali can't be the first one to be aflicted with such things.

Anyways, I'll report what I find for the next with a similar complaint. 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yes, I chased a starting problem one time where it had to be super rich to start. It was weak ignition. It taught me a very valuable lesson. I chased a fuel rich plug fouling problem on a Ducati for a long time. Weak ignition again. I was a slow learner.. 
It *could* be your problem. It is needing more fuel for whatever reason.. either ignition or something with the carburation. A poorly operating ignition system *needs* a lot of fuel.

[pressureangle]

Any 'hot' wire is telling you that the resistance is too high for the circumstance, whether through inadequate size, poor connections, or corrosion etc. High resistance reduces voltage, and ignitions love high voltage.

[sign216]

I won't talk about the repair problems.

I am here to talk about the book.

I read it for the first time when I was 21.  Hated it.
Second reading in my 50's, and then I understood.
It's a favorite book now.
I recommend you get a companion "explainer" text, as it really helps in understanding the where it's coming from.
Pirsig is god.  A troubled, misunderstood god, but one nonetheless.  like them all.

Joe

[John A]

its been a lot of years but I liked the way he explained the duality of looking at things, one way is" what it is", the other way is "what it means"

[canuck750]

Yes, I chased a starting problem one time where it had to be super rich to start. It was weak ignition. It taught me a very valuable lesson. I chased a fuel rich plug fouling problem on a Ducati for a long time. Weak ignition again. I was a slow learner.. 
It *could* be your problem. It is needing more fuel for whatever reason.. either ignition or something with the carburation. A poorly operating ignition system *needs* a lot of fuel.

What he said, I am a very, very slow learner, it’s been weak ignition, incorrect timing several times.

[Sheepdog]

Dialecticism vs rhetoric. What a great book...

Coils don’t last forever. In the old days, weak spark was a common motorcycle ailment. I put AC Delco coils and ballast resistors on more than one two-stroke that fouled a lot of plugs. Even my ‘03 Triumph Bonneville benefited from a coil change after only five years. Give the spares a try...

[izzug otom]

whether through inadequate size, poor connections

Thanks for the info, no need to get personal though 

I'm going to take a look at the electrics to see if there's any visibe problem before I get the multi meter on it.

I have the spare coils to try, but is it ever likely that the digiplex could have a fault? I gather they're pretty indestructable. I do have a spare one but its a digiplex 2s 501a whereas the Cali takes the 2s 500a. I'm assuming the 500/501 bit is relevant and they won't swap over, can anyone say for sure?

Thanks, Izzug

[pressureangle]

Thanks for the info, no need to get personal though 

I'm going to take a look at the electrics to see if there's any visibe problem before I get the multi meter on it.

I have the spare coils to try, but is it ever likely that the digiplex could have a fault? I gather they're pretty indestructable. I do have a spare one but its a digiplex 2s 501a whereas the Cali takes the 2s 500a. I'm assuming the 500/501 bit is relevant and they won't swap over, can anyone say for sure?

Thanks, Izzug

:D

I've always taught my students that 99% of all faults can be found with nothing more than your eyes and fingers.

[izzug otom]

I know that to be true in many things, and I get your point, but in this case I seem to be blind and unable to read brail............ 

[pehayes]

Similar problem in my 87 SPII with Dyna-III ignition.  Would hesitate and drop one cylinder for just a second when I was pulling away from stop sign or light.  Good way to get rear ended.  Couldn't loan the bike to anyone and nervous riding for myself.  Ran smoothly otherwise.  Chased numerous carb and ignition issues for two years.  Long story but I eventually found a VERY weak coil.  It would spark a plug held against the outside of the motor but would not spark the same plug when installed inside the motor.  Takes more amperage to spark the gap when in compressed gas/air mixture.  New coils = new machine!  Flawless ignition.  Big improvement in fuel consumption.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

The book is hard.  Three times.  Love it.

[izzug otom]

I checked through the relay, fuse and wiring from the ignition key main feed. I couldn't find anything, but the bike isn't running as bad as before, but still dies sometimes when applying medium to heavy throttle from low revs.

So maybe I've touched on something unknowingly. I'm going to run some continuity checks on my wiring, and check the primary and secondary windings on the coils, the HT leads and caps.

Does anyone know if there any particular maybe common fault areas that are worth me checking? Like common earth failure spots etc, that could affect the ignition?

Thanks guys

[Testarossa]

As many have said, most likely an ignition problem BUT take a look at the pumper in the carb on the weak side. Its purpose is to richen the mixture when you crank onto the throttle especially at low speed.

[izzug otom]

Thanks mate, I replaced the pump diaphrams along with all the washers, seals, needle valves when servicing the carbs.

I've swapped both coils, no difference. The readings for secondary and primary were a bit off, but not a milion miles away from the other, or the 2 spares. The HT lead and plug caps read the same around 5.5k ohms, not sure what they should read though.

[Testarossa]

Advance mechanism sticking?

[izzug otom]

That's taken care of by the digiplex ignition. I think the only option is to retard by 2 degrees.

[izzug otom]

Mmm . . . . . a significant new discovery guys. I give my thoughts, and ask what it sounds like to you?

The left hand cylinder is not firing on tick over and just above.

If I adjust the idle speed screw all the way in, or a good few turns out it makes no difference. The slides are balanced and lifting at the same time.

I think this has to be heavily linked to the problems I'm having.

I'm wondering if the pilot jet circuit's small air intake channel has some sort of blockage in it preventing fuel being drawn up through the pilot jet. Does that sound logical to you guys?

Also if I open the throttle a small amount and then hold it there, after a few moments the engine rpm's continues to increase significantly. That kinda sounds like a vacuum leak, but I did test for this by gaffa taping the inlet manifold rubber boots up (which are not old and still pliable), a long with the top of the carbs, despite having fresh O'rings fitted. I'll try the WD40 trick just to see if I get an increase of revs, but I feel it's not going to be that.

I think this has to be heavily linked to the problems I'm having

I'll also swap the HT leads over, though the resistance read exactly the same in both.

Cheers, Izzug

[pehayes]

You said it was a momentary drop in one cylinder.  I suggested a weak coil failing to spark when you add a slightly richer acceleration mixture to the combustion chamber.  You swapped the coils and said the results were the same.  Are you sure the same results are happening in the same cylinder?  If you had an intermittent in the left and swapped the coils then you might now have moved the intermittent to the right.  The results would feel the same to you.  You need to verify by strobe or by substituting other known good coils.  I chased mine a long time.  I only found it when the coil got so weak that it stopped firing all together.  It would fire in open air, but not under compression.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[izzug otom]

You said it was a momentary drop in one cylinder.  I suggested a weak coil failing to spark when you add a slightly richer acceleration mixture to the combustion chamber.  You swapped the coils and said the results were the same.  Are you sure the same results are happening in the same cylinder?  If you had an intermittent in the left and swapped the coils then you might now have moved the intermittent to the right.  The results would feel the same to you.  You need to verify by strobe or by substituting other known good coils.  I chased mine a long time.  I only found it when the coil got so weak that it stopped firing all together.  It would fire in open air, but not under compression.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

No mate, I have 2 spare coils, and swapped both coils.

The left side is the side that has felt colder consistantly, and the one where tjhe carb and plug has been distinctly more fouled up.

[izzug otom]

Well, it's there's no blockage in the pilot jet air intake or, of course, the jet itself, and spraying liberally with WD40 didn't show up any vacuum leaks.

What could cause her not to run on the left side at very low revs?

Very unlikely to be the coil, as I've swapped them both with spare pair, and I can't imagine being unlucky enough to have the very same issue with 2 different coils.

With it just being the one side faulting, it should rule out a lot of the electrical possibilities further back down the line, so I can only imagine, if it's electrical, which I think it has to be, that it has to be in the wiring to the coil from the Digiplex, or a fault with the digiplex.

I have a spare digiplex, but the model number is slightly different. Should that still work, at least to see if it erradicates the issue? The original is model number 2s 500a, my spare (from a small block Nevada) is a 2s 501a.

Can anyone tell me if there's any danger of causing damage if I do swap them over?


Cheers Izzug

[sdcr]

Izzug,

I have been following this thread with interest, as I have an issue with my Le Mans III, that has some similarities. Although I have a carb model setup, PHF36 carbs, but my Le Mans has the original duel point distributor.

 Here is a link to the thread that I started about  my bikes problem, but I will sum up the issues that I have:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96780.0

Left side backfiring through the carb, when under low throttle, below 1900 rpm. Bike will not idle.

Corrections I have taken so far-
 left carb, replaced needle valve, cleaned all jets  main, idle etc. Cleaned both petcocks.
Replaced plugs, and plug wires. Tried switching the  coils, from right to left. This produced backfiring in the right carb..
I have since ordered new coils, waiting to install. I am not thoroughly convinced that I tracked down the problem. Will know better when new coils arrive.

[izzug otom]

Izzug,

I have been following this thread with interest, as I have an issue with my Le Mans III, that has some similarities. Although I have a carb model setup, PHF36 carbs, but my Le Mans has the original duel point distributor.

 Here is a link to the thread that I started about  my bikes problem, but I will sum up the issues that I have:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=96780.0

Left side backfiring through the carb, when under low throttle, below 1900 rpm. Bike will not idle.

Corrections I have taken so far-
 left carb, replaced needle valve, cleaned all jets  main, idle etc. Cleaned both petcocks.
Replaced plugs, and plug wires. Tried switching the  coils, from right to left. This produced backfiring in the right carb..
I have since ordered new coils, waiting to install. I am not thoroughly convinced that I tracked down the problem. Will know better when new coils arrive.

Aye John, I've been through your thread, definitely some similarities, and I feel for you, it's a very frustrating business, I'm sure you'll agree. Let's keep each other posted.   

Martin

[Old Jock]

I read through this and I'm wondering about the hot ignition wire.

It could be entirely normal the ignition has to carry quite a current when the ignition is switched on. It would also get hot if you leave the ignition on for extended periods without firing the bike up.

Leaving the ignition on for any length of time and not having the kill switch set to off will result in the coils taking current to charge, lots of amps, it will also wreck your coils as they will overheat.

As already said by others if the wire is hot then it's carrying too much current and the hotter it gets the worse it gets.

Just a couple of things, what gauge or CSA of wire did you use when you replaced/modified the ignition barrel to a spade connection?

Check what you're battery voltage is against what the voltage you get on the pos LV of both coil connections (I'm thinking volts drop)

When you swapped coils you removed them both and physically swapped them making sure the LV connections and the HT connections are kept paired Yes? You didn't just swap over the HT leads, I don't know digiplex but in a points or non wasted spark system that would result in some interesting results and backfiring through the carb would be one of them, as well as running pretty horribly in general

On the carb side you are absolutely sure that the choke is working as it should, on my LM 1000 it looked like the choke was working but the whole thing was gummed solid on one side which resulted in some weird effects

As you seem to have gone through quite a list of stuff already, I'm assuming basics are covered the valve lash on the tappets have been checked and a compression test as been completed

If I am insulting your intelligence please forgive me as I don't know your level or competence (nor you mine  )

Feel free to ignore me, most do

[izzug otom]

I took her out for a good run yesterday to see if I could find more indication of the issues at hand, but in reality it just got more eratic, leading me to believe it must for sure be an ignition fault.

Sometimes when accelerating from low revs, the engine would cut, then I'd drop down a gear and the engine would take hold again and away she flew. Other times I'd be accelerating in a lower gear at higher revs, the engine would cut, this time stepping up a gear, thus accelerating in low revs, the bike would take hold and fly again.

Thus, two totally conflicting sets of circumstances brought about the same failure. I have to deduce from that, that what I'm looking for is an ignition fault, and doubting it's the coils themselves, as it'd be unbelievable bad luck if I swapped a dodgy coils for another with exactly the same issues. I will try swapping the old R/H one for the spare I've fitted to the problematic L/H side, but it's sop remote a chance, it's hardly worth bothering with.

When the engine dies on acceleration, it's either the left side failing and the right can't take that throttle on it's own and gets bogged down....... or both coils are not producing sufficient sparks due to a fault somewhere back in the electrics feeding them.

It's really easy for this kind of fuckery to hide itself. It will most likely be something very simple if only I could trace it. As I said above I'm no expert with electrics, but I have a multi meter and a pair of eyes.......... here goes again. 

Izzug

[Old Jock]

If it's upstream of the coils it should be very easy indeed

I'll need to look at a Cali wiring diagram, but the usual is battery to ignition switch, ignition switch to kill switch, kill switch to coils

So you have a meter tape it to the tank and fix the pos test lead to the LV pos on the coil, neg test lead to ground

Go for a run when it cuts out take a quick peek at the volts

I'm wondering faulty kill switch, I had that once on Triumph and everybody was screaming Rita ignition was to blame that's the way I found out it was the bloody kill switch

Another alternative is 2mm^2 wire minimum, flying lead from battery pos to coil pos, short run see how it behaves 

[izzug otom]

I read through this and I'm wondering about the hot ignition wire.

It could be entirely normal the ignition has to carry quite a current when the ignition is switched on. It would also get hot if you leave the ignition on for extended periods without firing the bike up.

Leaving the ignition on for any length of time and not having the kill switch set to off will result in the coils taking current to charge, lots of amps, it will also wreck your coils as they will overheat.

As already said by others if the wire is hot then it's carrying too much current and the hotter it gets the worse it gets.

Just a couple of things, what gauge or CSA of wire did you use when you replaced/modified the ignition barrel to a spade connection?

Check what you're battery voltage is against what the voltage you get on the pos LV of both coil connections (I'm thinking volts drop)

When you swapped coils you removed them both and physically swapped them making sure the LV connections and the HT connections are kept paired Yes? You didn't just swap over the HT leads, I don't know digiplex but in a points or non wasted spark system that would result in some interesting results and backfiring through the carb would be one of them, as well as running pretty horribly in general

On the carb side you are absolutely sure that the choke is working as it should, on my LM 1000 it looked like the choke was working but the whole thing was gummed solid on one side which resulted in some weird effects

As you seem to have gone through quite a list of stuff already, I'm assuming basics are covered the valve lash on the tappets have been checked and a compression test as been completed

If I am insulting your intelligence please forgive me as I don't know your level or competence (nor you mine  )

Feel free to ignore me, most do

Hey not at all mate, I'm glad of all suggestions. I haven't checked for voltage drops. I assume you mean with wiring connectors to the coils pulled and testing with the ignition on?

I'm assuming frying the coils by leaving the ignition on (can that really happen, I had no idea) would show in multi meter ohms readings?

"Just a couple of things, what gauge or CSA of wire did you use when you replaced/modified the ignition barrel to a spade connection?"

I used wire a little heavier than the original. I'll post some pics a little later today.

Yeah the chokes and carbs are fine.

Yeah I swapped a spare pair of coils in, so HT and LV stayed in the correct pairing.

"So you have a meter tape it to the tank and fix the pos test lead to the LV pos on the coil, neg test lead to ground"
They're not spade connectors, they're the sealed clip in connectors, not quite sure how I can connect up to the positive whilst it's all connected up.

I haven't checked the tappets, but it's done very little mileage since they were last checked

Here's the wiring diagram  http://www.guzzitek.org/schemas_electriques/gb/1100/1100California_Carbu_1994.gif

Ignore you my ass Old Jock, I like your thinking, and much appreciateyou stopping by to offer you help.

I'll go out now and try and get those readings before a mate comes round to help me fix my washing machine, which has also packed up, along with my fridge freezer, doh!   

Izzug