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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Mr Pootle on August 28, 2018, 11:39:28 AM

Title: Biofuel
Post by: Mr Pootle on August 28, 2018, 11:39:28 AM
I've just read on the Jaguar website that they're going to start selling petrol with 10% ethanol in th UK shortly. I believe it's been in American petrol stations for a while now. Any feedback?
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Toecutter on August 28, 2018, 11:52:11 AM
In Canada, it's kinda tough to tell what's what.

Some sellers only have 10% in regular, with 0% in the high octane. Esso is one of them. But it's tough to figure out what's what.

I try to fill at the "no ethanol in high test" places whenever possible, but don't sweat the E10 stuff if I'm on a distance trip and know I'll be burning it quickly. That said... not like you have a choice in some places, when you're a long way from home.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: guzzisteve on August 28, 2018, 11:57:29 AM
I think it started in the early 70's after the embargo thing. Been here a long time.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Sheepdog on August 28, 2018, 12:09:27 PM
On bikes that were built before-or-just-after the introduction of E10, there can be problems with fuel lines and plastic or aluminum parts. Because Ethanol is hygroscopic (there�s that word again), aluminum parts can corrode and will produce aluminum oxides. You may remember that aluminum oxide is the abrasive material used in sandpaper. Some plastics also react poorly to ethanol. My Yamaha 4-wheeler�s fuel gauge float was reduced to a black blob by the stuff. My �03 Triumph needs a new fuel petcock and a carb rebuild after less than 20K miles also and it reduced four of my line trimmers and a mower to piles of junk. The good news is that most bikes built after about 2008 have fuel systems that deal with E10 well. However, I now use electric line trimmers and diesel mowers...
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: BrotherJim on August 28, 2018, 12:24:14 PM
Not a fan.  USEPA is considering E15 for the near future.  Blah.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Toecutter on August 28, 2018, 12:28:06 PM
On bikes that were built before-or-just-after the introduction of E10, there can be problems with fuel lines and plastic or aluminum parts. Because Ethanol is hygroscopic (there�s that word again), aluminum parts can corrode and will produce aluminum oxides. You may remember that aluminum oxide is the abrasive material used in sandpaper. Some plastics also react poorly to ethanol. My Yamaha 4-wheeler�s fuel gauge float was reduced to a black blob by the stuff. My �03 Triumph needs a new fuel petcock and a carb rebuild after less than 20K miles also and it reduced four of my line trimmers and a mower to piles of junk. The good news is that most bikes built after about 2008 have fuel systems that deal with E10 well. However, I now use electric line trimmers and diesel mowers...

All my yard tools are gas (Stihl... what can I say, I'm a brand snob), but I only use high octane, no ethanol fuel in them, and add stabilizer to every can I fill.

It's worth the extra $0.10 a litre, to me.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: yogidozer on August 28, 2018, 12:31:13 PM
10% ethanol, 10% less mileage. and lots of problems, as stated, to go with it.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: elvisboy77 on August 28, 2018, 01:13:41 PM
I've just read on the Jaguar website that they're going to start selling petrol with 10% ethanol in th UK shortly. I believe it's been in American petrol stations for a while now. Any feedback?

A bad idea created by a lot of non engineers (lawyers, and scientists) to provide poorer fuel economy, more harm to the vehicle from water absorption etc, shorter maintenance intervals, etc.  Don't believe me?  Read the back of your modern car owner's manual where there is discussion of using ethanol blend fuel- short version is you need to use the "severe service maintenance interval". 

My advice is to avoid it whenever possible.  I keep hoping the US will stop subsidizing our corn growers and eliminate it.  I don't think we are smart enough, TBH.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: not-fishing on August 28, 2018, 01:36:12 PM
A bad idea created by a lot of non engineers (lawyers, and scientists) to provide poorer fuel economy, more harm to the vehicle from water absorption etc, shorter maintenance intervals, etc.  Don't believe me?  Read the back of your modern car owner's manual where there is discussion of using ethanol blend fuel- short version is you need to use the "severe service maintenance interval". 

Biofuel is a really bad idea because it uses damn near as much fuel to grow & process it as it makes.

Mark
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Toecutter on August 28, 2018, 03:32:31 PM
Diesel bikes and old fryer oil. Perfect solution.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: yogidozer on August 28, 2018, 04:16:41 PM
Can anyone say what the benefits of using 10% ethanol are? except the benefit to repairmen
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Sheepdog on August 28, 2018, 04:25:20 PM
The US Government is trying to maintain farming capacity at times when the grain is not being bought as food. It is a strategic initiative not unlike the Strategic Petroleum Reserve run by the USDOE. Energy independence is the stated goal.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: yogidozer on August 28, 2018, 04:31:11 PM
The US Government is trying to maintain farming capacity at times when the grain is not being bought as food. It is a strategic initiative not unlike the Strategic Petroleum Reserve run by the USDOE. Energy independence is the stated goal.
Yeah I heard that story. Truth is you get less mileage and a whole lotta problems using it.
But, it's not like we have a choice any longer.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: TimmyTheHog on August 28, 2018, 04:33:26 PM
Can anyone say what the benefits of using 10% ethanol are? except the benefit to repairmen

Basically These are the Pros of biofuel:

The Pro:

HOWEVER there are more cons to the whole biofuel IMO:


as other mentioned, newer models of cars & bikes have been designed to "compromise" with the biofuel, but still no guarantee no damage.

I personally ignore it like a plague. In Canada, a lot of stations still offer non-ethanol gas just higher grade and more costly...which is fine by me as a motorbike doesn't use THAT much comparing to my 4 wheels.

In the states, a lot of stations are ethanol mixed regardless which grade...

If you do fill up with bio-fuel mixed gas, burn it off and don't sit on it.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: yogidozer on August 28, 2018, 04:48:43 PM
Basically These are the Pros of biofuel:

The Pro:
  • its biodegradable if left unused...more environmental friendly
  • less greenhouse gas emission
  • The biggest one is the Positive Energy Balance. It has a balance of every 1.06btu per G with 1.00btu energy used

HOWEVER there are more cons to the whole biofuel IMO:

  • It reduces MPG as you will need to use MORE for the same amount of mileage as you would with crude oil base gas
  • Older engine does not like it which result in rebuild more often
  • It attracts water which is bad for storage
  • Due to its water attraction property, electronics & untreated plastic will die (faster)
  • and yes, it competes with food supplies

as other mentioned, newer models of cars & bikes have been designed to "compromise" with the biofuel, but still no guarantee no damage.

I personally ignore it like a plague. In Canada, a lot of stations still offer non-ethanol gas just higher grade and more costly...which is fine by me as a motorbike doesn't use THAT much comparing to my 4 wheels.

In the states, a lot of stations are ethanol mixed regardless which grade...

If you do fill up with bio-fuel mixed gas, burn it off and don't sit on it.
less greenhouse gas emission? the fact that you get less MPG offsets that "pro" doesn't it?
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: TimmyTheHog on August 28, 2018, 04:53:05 PM
less greenhouse gas emission? the fact that you get less MPG offsets that "pro" doesn't it?

YUP...that is what the pro group keeps on harking about...which doesn't make sense as you pointed out.

somehow normal math doesn't work for them *shrug*
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: yogidozer on August 28, 2018, 05:17:20 PM
YUP...that is what the pro group keeps on harking about...which doesn't make sense as you pointed out.

somehow normal math doesn't work for them *shrug*
we're just along for the ride  :wink:
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: bad Chad on August 28, 2018, 05:28:38 PM
I read a very well documented article in Nat Geo a few years back.   They concluded that Ethanol made from corn, as almost all of it is in the USA, was slightly better for the environment than traditional gasoline.  That is, when all numbers are crunched, the resulting carbon foot print is a bit smaller.   Producing it from other sources, such as switch grass are a far better idea, but we don't do that as far as I know.

That being said, I have used it in all my petrol burning machines almost exclusively for over twenty years, both old and new, with NO, NONE WHAT SO EVER, negative impact on any machine.  That's been my experience.  Its all we can get around Chicago, and works fine in my 80s era stuff as well as new. 
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: stormshearon on August 28, 2018, 06:05:20 PM
We have been forced to live with ethanol in fuel since the 70's, as part of the energy independence movement from congress started during the carter administration during the 'fuel embargo' started by opec. You can read a bunch about it a bit here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_United_States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_United_States).

The real issue for a lot of us is that ethanol has fewer btu's of energy per gallon than pure gas - which means you do burn more to go a set distance. It is hygroscopic, which mostly means that it will absorb water - and it is the water that can be an problem in the fuel system if it comes out of suspension. If you keep the fuel fresh in the tank it mostly is not a problem - though some Ducati owners would argue that point. Some of us also don't think giving subsidies for it are good - total to date about 45 billion US dollars. It can mess up some gas powered yard tools.

Oh - and it tends to make some really big agri-business folks here in the us richer than they already are.

Personally, I think we should not put land to use growing alcohol feed stocks, but put the engineering into better fuel efficiency for engines. Use the land for food or leave it fallow.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: bad Chad on August 28, 2018, 06:12:37 PM
Valid point, it does have fewer BTUs.  But in my experience, it's imperceptible.  Someone said you get a 10% loss in milage, that's not at all accurate.  If you are going to use 10% alcohol fuel, you will lose something in the order of 3% fuel economy, at that might be a substantial overstatement.

Bottom line, don't worry about it, you won't notice it. 
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: kirkemon on August 28, 2018, 06:16:21 PM
I'm trying the Bel Ray fuel additive, it claims: "neutralizes all of the harmful effects that ethanol".
http://www.belray.com/all-one-fuel-treatment-0
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: TimmyTheHog on August 28, 2018, 06:17:08 PM
I'm trying the Bel Ray fuel additive, it claims: "neutralizes all of the harmful effects that ethanol".
http://www.belray.com/all-one-fuel-treatment-0

I have seen some people using it...

Let us know how it goes!
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: twowings on August 28, 2018, 06:43:59 PM
When you travel around the U.S. by bike, you don't always have a choice unless you do prior research to find the 'pure' gasoline outlets...I can't honestly say my 2V Norge 1200 runs any differently than terrific on ethanol-laced or 'real' gasoline, from 88 to 92 octane...it may or may not be running as efficiently as it could but the 'butt dyno' doesn't detect any appreciable difference...howeve r, there is a DEFINITE effect on the plastic tank of the Norge and you'd better be prepared to muscle it back into place if removal is necessary subsequent to any ethanol fuel being added...I try to use non-ethanol fuel if available but traveling through Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, and other corn-centric agricultural enclaves it's like a religion with many suppliers...what long-term damage may be happening to my engine/fuel lines/throttle bodies/fuel tank I have yet to find out...YMMV
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: yogidozer on August 28, 2018, 07:00:53 PM
next they'll be adding broccoli  :shocked:
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Lannis on August 28, 2018, 07:42:11 PM
Valid point, it does have fewer BTUs.  But in my experience, it's imperceptible.  Someone said you get a 10% loss in milage, that's not at all accurate.  If you are going to use 10% alcohol fuel, you will lose something in the order of 3% fuel economy, at that might be a substantial overstatement.

Bottom line, don't worry about it, you won't notice it.

"It is too late for me, son" ...

Although your strategy will probably work for some folks ...

(https://photos.smugmug.com/General/i-8D63xSN/0/83337024/O/ostrich.jpg) (https://lannisselz.smugmug.com/General/i-8D63xSN/A)

I've already committed the crime of "noticing" that ethanol fuel doesn't age well, makes fiberglass tanks destroy themselves, attacks diaphragm carburetors and float needle tips, and drops my fuel mileage a measured 10%.   

As long as I don't notice, though, or find something else on which to blame it, I could be just fine ....  :angel:

Lannis
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 28, 2018, 08:38:23 PM
I haven't experienced any E10 fuel related issues with any of my gasoline powered machines - ever. My two Lawn-Boys, Snow-Boy, Echo trimmer, Husqvarna leaf blower, Husqvarna and Remington chainsaws, Yardvaark chipper/shredder/blower/vac and two Gravelys all run it. The Lawn-Boy oil I use has a stabilizer in it (always has) and I use a stabilizer in the other's gas during whatever the off-season is for each machine. No carbs have needed rebuilding, no fuel hoses have rotted off, no fuel tank issues (rust, swelling, etc.). All of them start easily and run well. The Echo sometimes needs a little mixture adjustment between (infrequent) uses, but that's it.

The motorcycles (currently two Guzzis and the Morini) have likewise suffered no issues. I do use the latest float needles with Viton tips and Tygon fuel hose, but that's the extent of any "work" necessary due to E10. My mpg is quite good for each bike: 43 for the Convert, 50 for the Ambo and 65 for the Morini. The two times I've run "pure gas" in the Convert, it ran worse and gas mileage dropped! Same thing happened with my old Yamaha XT500.

I do know that mpg has dropped on my crusty old VW Eurovan (approx. 3 mpg) and maybe the Mercedes would do better on pure gas (currently averaging 25 mpg) too.

Look, I'm no big fan of having ethanol in my gasoline, but for me at least "the sky isn't falling" because of it. And are you sure that all of the issues are due solely to the ethanol in the gasoline? There are lots of volatile chemicals in modern gasoline and isn't it possible that one of those additives could be causing the issues? Just a thought.   
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Lannis on August 28, 2018, 09:07:30 PM
I haven't experienced any E10 fuel related issues with any of my gasoline powered machines - ever. My two Lawn-Boys, Snow-Boy, Echo trimmer, Husqvarna leaf blower, Husqvarna and Remington chainsaws, Yardvaark chipper/shredder/blower/vac and two Gravelys all run it. The Lawn-Boy oil I use has a stabilizer in it (always has) and I use a stabilizer in the other's gas during whatever the off-season is for each machine. No carbs have needed rebuilding, no fuel hoses have rotted off, no fuel tank issues (rust, swelling, etc.). All of them start easily and run well. The Echo sometimes needs a little mixture adjustment between (infrequent) uses, but that's it.

The motorcycles (currently two Guzzis and the Morini) have likewise suffered no issues. I do use the latest float needles with Viton tips and Tygon fuel hose, but that's the extent of any "work" necessary due to E10. My mpg is quite good for each bike: 43 for the Convert, 50 for the Ambo and 65 for the Morini. The two times I've run "pure gas" in the Convert, it ran worse and gas mileage dropped! Same thing happened with my old Yamaha XT500.

I do know that mpg has dropped on my crusty old VW Eurovan (approx. 3 mpg) and maybe the Mercedes would do better on pure gas (currently averaging 25 mpg) too.

Look, I'm no big fan of having ethanol in my gasoline, but for me at least "the sky isn't falling" because of it. And are you sure that all of the issues are due solely to the ethanol in the gasoline? There are lots of volatile chemicals in modern gasoline and isn't it possible that one of those additives could be causing the issues? Just a thought.

I don't know.   You're using gas stabilizer, have changed your float needle tips, have changed fuel line, and noticed a change in gas mileage.    I mean .....

I'm not claiming the sky is falling, just that I've found it to be a pain in the butt in motors where I haven't run stabilizer in the fuel, haven't changed out fuel lines, and haven't converted float needles.   And I'm pretty sure you'd be the only guy on the planet who uses ethanol in older fiberglass tanks (Spanish trialers, BSA Shooting Stars, etc) and hasn't found the alcohol attacking it.   That's just chemistry, not Chicken Little hysteria.   It almost HAS to happen ....

Lannis
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Wayne Orwig on August 28, 2018, 09:40:38 PM
No problem for 10% that I have ever seen. And ethanol raises the octane, so there is value in putting more of it in higher octane gasoline. So I use the low octane stuff to get less ethanol.
I may have seen a very slight reduction in fuel economy. Maybe.
My lawn mower runs gasoline from a can that has been in the shed for about a year. It has 5 gallons of the cheap 10% stuff. No issues.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: bad Chad on August 28, 2018, 09:43:03 PM
I'm  calling BS on you Lannis.   10% ethanol will NOT lower mileage by 10%!  If it did, then running straight ethanol ought to yield 0 mpg!    But even if my science thinking is off, I can report that to my disappointment, as I get quite excited to run across pure gasoline, it makes no real difference in mpg, certainly nothing close to 10%.   It's a thrill to find premium no octane gas when traveling, but aside from my wish, mpg and performance are static.   
I have never had a fuel related problem with any internal combustion motor due to ethanol.  Shrug
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 28, 2018, 10:54:05 PM
I'm  calling BS on you Lannis.   10% ethanol will NOT lower mileage by 10%!  If it did, then running straight ethanol ought to yield 0 mpg!    But even if my science thinking is off, I can report that to my disappointment, as I get quite excited to run across pure gasoline, it makes no real difference in mpg, certainly nothing close to 10%.   It's a thrill to find premium no octane gas when traveling, but aside from my wish, mpg and performance are static.   
I have never had a fuel related problem with any internal combustion motor due to ethanol.  Shrug

On my Eurovan, gas mileage dropped from an average of 25 mpg to an average of 22 mpg, so that's a bit more than 10%. Back in the '90s, before we had E10 all the time - only "oxygenated" gas during the Winter months - my Audis (5000S and 80 Quattro) would regularly drop 2-3 mpg when the supply was switched the "Winter blend". That was right around 10% for each, so my experience with fuel injected, knock sensor equipped automobile engines seems to agree with Lannis' experience.

The same can not be said for any of my carbureted, air-cooled, "low-tech" motorcycles. 
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: yogidozer on August 28, 2018, 10:59:46 PM
back when I had a choice to use regular gas and the 10%, I was doing a lot of commuting.
I made comparisons, kept track of my miles as I was reimbursed for mileage.
there is a 10% loss using the ethanol mix.
and as far as problems? as any lawn & garden repair shop or marine repair shop
But you can believe anything you like, we don't have a choice any longer
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Loop Tonti EV on August 29, 2018, 02:43:47 AM
On my Eurovan, gas mileage dropped from an average of 25 mpg to an average of 22 mpg, so that's a bit more than 10%. Back in the '90s, before we had E10 all the time - only "oxygenated" gas during the Winter months - my Audis (5000S and 80 Quattro) would regularly drop 2-3 mpg when the supply was switched the "Winter blend". That was right around 10% for each, so my experience with fuel injected, knock sensor equipped automobile engines seems to agree with Lannis' experience.

The same can not be said for any of my carbureted, air-cooled, "low-tech" motorcycles.

I agree, my wife's Jeep Grand Cherokee with a 4 liter 6 will consistently get 18.3 mpg on non ethanol regular when we can find it. With E10 regular it drops to 16.4 consistently. That is a 10 percent drop. My Ram 1500 gets similar results.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Muzz on August 29, 2018, 03:12:39 AM
  If it did, then running straight ethanol ought to yield 0 mpg!   

The book that came with my bro's Vincent Comet had table in the rear for what to run with whatever state of tune.

Main jet size on standard petrol   #180
Main jet size on pure ethanol       #1800

Might not get 0 mpg but I can guarantee it would be pretty close! :grin: :grin: :grin:
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: ChuckH on August 29, 2018, 04:44:09 AM
IIRC, the octane level of Ethanol is 100.  It's used by the refineries to combine with lower octane levels of gasoline they refine and end up with the 87, 89, etc octane levels they sell at the pumps.   

As has been said, E10 reduces the engine power level by ~5% and the fuel usage increases by a similar amount.

My 2007 R1200R BMW has a flexible fuel strip in the tank that measures the fuel level.  Apparently, the BMW engineers didn't realize we use E10 gasoline in the US, nor did they realize the corrosive effects of that fuel on the coating they used to protect the wires on that strip. 

Long story, short -- the E10 gasoline eats the coating and shorts out the strip.  Sometimes it happens in a couple of months, other times it may take a year or so.  Because of this repeated failure mode, BMW agreed to warranty the fuel strip, and a couple of related parts, for 12 years from the date of original purchase on the models using this fuel strip.  Warranty cost to replace is near $400.  I'm on my fifth fuel strip in the three years I've owned this bike.

Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: kingoffleece on August 29, 2018, 05:13:19 AM
I always surprised and wonder why some report zero effects with E10 on older equipment.  Having spent several years associated with a M/C shop that also dealt with small lawn equipment, snowmobiles, and such how busy the mechanics were every spring (or fall, depending on the equipment) fixing issues specific to ethanol fuel.  We would, on a regular basis, see plenty of carb issues, fuel line issues, tank corrosion, and the occasional other issue.

These things were much less with the customers who use(ed) stabilizer on a regular basis.  I don't discount that there are several variables involved but it was very clear that one dominant constant was ethanol fuel.
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Rough Edge racing on August 29, 2018, 05:27:47 AM
 I use the 90 octane non ethanol in my bikes , chain saws and small engines...In my 99 Jeep and 09 Ranger it's the 87 E10...I have tried  non ethanol in vehicles and really didn't notice any difference between it and E10 in terms of performance or mileage
 In my opinion, some reported problems with E10 fuel is with poorly maintained and tuned  equipment....I work on vintage British bikes for a few people and for some it's the same damn problem every year..The carb pilot jet is plugged from evaporated E10 gas..Owners just can't manage to drain the fuel from the carbs over the winter..
  Hot rod guys are getting more power than ever using E10 pump fuel. They learned to adapt to the different fuel through engine tuning..Adapt or just drive an electric vehicle...
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Wayne Orwig on August 29, 2018, 10:24:44 AM
I always surprised and wonder why some report zero effects with E10 on older equipment.  Having spent several years associated with a M/C shop that also dealt with small lawn equipment, snowmobiles, and such how busy the mechanics were every spring (or fall, depending on the equipment) fixing issues specific to ethanol fuel.  We would, on a regular basis, see plenty of carb issues, fuel line issues, tank corrosion, and the occasional other issue.


Back before anyone knew about ethanol added to gasoline, every spring, a lot of small engines needed the varnished carb cleaned, and the fuel system cleaned out. But now, it is blamed on ethanol.
Maybe it truely is a bit worse now. I have not really seen it.
My model airplane motors run on ethanol. Never had much issue with them setting over the winter. No aluminum carb issues. Only issue was synthetic oil. It did not protect from rust as well as the good ole castor oil.

Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: bad Chad on August 29, 2018, 11:59:30 AM
My wife's car can run E85 that's  up to 85% ethanol.   When I have run it with 85 the mileage has dropped off by about a third,a significant loss!    most of the time I find the price for E 85 needs to be at least a dollar cheaper than regular and almost always that is not the case it doesn't make financial sense to run it.

 The cars that run in the IndyCar series run hundred percent ethanol fuel. Somehow their 700 hp engines managed to get at least a few miles per gallon, I suspect a typical automobile would do much better
Title: Re: Biofuel
Post by: Toecutter on August 29, 2018, 12:19:49 PM
There's gotta be a reason that every small engine & tractor repair joint I know of recommends high test/ no octane fuel (again, to reiterate... high test fuel around here contains no ethanol... the stations need to have "10% ethanol"  In their fuel, so most run 10% in regular, 5% in midgrade and 0% in high octane).


I think we're seeing a time when the two industries aren't exactly in sync. I see more and more motorized tools and vehicles suggesting "no/ low ethanol" fuels, while simultanteously seeing a push for higher ethanol in our fuel. Something's gotta give.