Biofuel

[Mr Pootle]

I've just read on the Jaguar website that they're going to start selling petrol with 10% ethanol in th UK shortly. I believe it's been in American petrol stations for a while now. Any feedback?

[Toecutter]

In Canada, it's kinda tough to tell what's what.

Some sellers only have 10% in regular, with 0% in the high octane. Esso is one of them. But it's tough to figure out what's what.

I try to fill at the "no ethanol in high test" places whenever possible, but don't sweat the E10 stuff if I'm on a distance trip and know I'll be burning it quickly. That said... not like you have a choice in some places, when you're a long way from home.

[guzzisteve]

I think it started in the early 70's after the embargo thing. Been here a long time.

[Sheepdog]

On bikes that were built before-or-just-after the introduction of E10, there can be problems with fuel lines and plastic or aluminum parts. Because Ethanol is hygroscopic (there�s that word again), aluminum parts can corrode and will produce aluminum oxides. You may remember that aluminum oxide is the abrasive material used in sandpaper. Some plastics also react poorly to ethanol. My Yamaha 4-wheeler�s fuel gauge float was reduced to a black blob by the stuff. My �03 Triumph needs a new fuel petcock and a carb rebuild after less than 20K miles also and it reduced four of my line trimmers and a mower to piles of junk. The good news is that most bikes built after about 2008 have fuel systems that deal with E10 well. However, I now use electric line trimmers and diesel mowers...

[BrotherJim]

Not a fan.  USEPA is considering E15 for the near future.  Blah.

[Toecutter]

On bikes that were built before-or-just-after the introduction of E10, there can be problems with fuel lines and plastic or aluminum parts. Because Ethanol is hygroscopic (there�s that word again), aluminum parts can corrode and will produce aluminum oxides. You may remember that aluminum oxide is the abrasive material used in sandpaper. Some plastics also react poorly to ethanol. My Yamaha 4-wheeler�s fuel gauge float was reduced to a black blob by the stuff. My �03 Triumph needs a new fuel petcock and a carb rebuild after less than 20K miles also and it reduced four of my line trimmers and a mower to piles of junk. The good news is that most bikes built after about 2008 have fuel systems that deal with E10 well. However, I now use electric line trimmers and diesel mowers...

All my yard tools are gas (Stihl... what can I say, I'm a brand snob), but I only use high octane, no ethanol fuel in them, and add stabilizer to every can I fill.

It's worth the extra $0.10 a litre, to me.

[yogidozer]

10% ethanol, 10% less mileage. and lots of problems, as stated, to go with it.

[elvisboy77]

I've just read on the Jaguar website that they're going to start selling petrol with 10% ethanol in th UK shortly. I believe it's been in American petrol stations for a while now. Any feedback?

A bad idea created by a lot of non engineers (lawyers, and scientists) to provide poorer fuel economy, more harm to the vehicle from water absorption etc, shorter maintenance intervals, etc.  Don't believe me?  Read the back of your modern car owner's manual where there is discussion of using ethanol blend fuel- short version is you need to use the "severe service maintenance interval". 

My advice is to avoid it whenever possible.  I keep hoping the US will stop subsidizing our corn growers and eliminate it.  I don't think we are smart enough, TBH.

[not-fishing]

A bad idea created by a lot of non engineers (lawyers, and scientists) to provide poorer fuel economy, more harm to the vehicle from water absorption etc, shorter maintenance intervals, etc.  Don't believe me?  Read the back of your modern car owner's manual where there is discussion of using ethanol blend fuel- short version is you need to use the "severe service maintenance interval". 

Biofuel is a really bad idea because it uses damn near as much fuel to grow & process it as it makes.

Mark

[Toecutter]

Diesel bikes and old fryer oil. Perfect solution.

[yogidozer]

Can anyone say what the benefits of using 10% ethanol are? except the benefit to repairmen

[Sheepdog]

The US Government is trying to maintain farming capacity at times when the grain is not being bought as food. It is a strategic initiative not unlike the Strategic Petroleum Reserve run by the USDOE. Energy independence is the stated goal.

[yogidozer]

The US Government is trying to maintain farming capacity at times when the grain is not being bought as food. It is a strategic initiative not unlike the Strategic Petroleum Reserve run by the USDOE. Energy independence is the stated goal.

Yeah I heard that story. Truth is you get less mileage and a whole lotta problems using it.
But, it's not like we have a choice any longer.

[TimmyTheHog]

Can anyone say what the benefits of using 10% ethanol are? except the benefit to repairmen

Basically These are the Pros of biofuel:

The Pro:

• its biodegradable if left unused...more environmental friendly
• less greenhouse gas emission
• The biggest one is the Positive Energy Balance. It has a balance of every 1.06btu per G with 1.00btu energy used

HOWEVER there are more cons to the whole biofuel IMO:

• It reduces MPG as you will need to use MORE for the same amount of mileage as you would with crude oil base gas
• Older engine does not like it which result in rebuild more often
• It attracts water which is bad for storage
• Due to its water attraction property, electronics & untreated plastic will die (faster)
• and yes, it competes with food supplies

as other mentioned, newer models of cars & bikes have been designed to "compromise" with the biofuel, but still no guarantee no damage.

I personally ignore it like a plague. In Canada, a lot of stations still offer non-ethanol gas just higher grade and more costly...which is fine by me as a motorbike doesn't use THAT much comparing to my 4 wheels.

In the states, a lot of stations are ethanol mixed regardless which grade...

If you do fill up with bio-fuel mixed gas, burn it off and don't sit on it.

[yogidozer]

Basically These are the Pros of biofuel:

The Pro:

• its biodegradable if left unused...more environmental friendly
• less greenhouse gas emission
• The biggest one is the Positive Energy Balance. It has a balance of every 1.06btu per G with 1.00btu energy used

HOWEVER there are more cons to the whole biofuel IMO:

• It reduces MPG as you will need to use MORE for the same amount of mileage as you would with crude oil base gas
• Older engine does not like it which result in rebuild more often
• It attracts water which is bad for storage
• Due to its water attraction property, electronics & untreated plastic will die (faster)
• and yes, it competes with food supplies

as other mentioned, newer models of cars & bikes have been designed to "compromise" with the biofuel, but still no guarantee no damage.

I personally ignore it like a plague. In Canada, a lot of stations still offer non-ethanol gas just higher grade and more costly...which is fine by me as a motorbike doesn't use THAT much comparing to my 4 wheels.

In the states, a lot of stations are ethanol mixed regardless which grade...

If you do fill up with bio-fuel mixed gas, burn it off and don't sit on it.

less greenhouse gas emission? the fact that you get less MPG offsets that "pro" doesn't it?

[TimmyTheHog]

less greenhouse gas emission? the fact that you get less MPG offsets that "pro" doesn't it?

YUP...that is what the pro group keeps on harking about...which doesn't make sense as you pointed out.

somehow normal math doesn't work for them *shrug*

[yogidozer]

YUP...that is what the pro group keeps on harking about...which doesn't make sense as you pointed out.

somehow normal math doesn't work for them *shrug*

we're just along for the ride 

[bad Chad]

I read a very well documented article in Nat Geo a few years back.   They concluded that Ethanol made from corn, as almost all of it is in the USA, was slightly better for the environment than traditional gasoline.  That is, when all numbers are crunched, the resulting carbon foot print is a bit smaller.   Producing it from other sources, such as switch grass are a far better idea, but we don't do that as far as I know.

That being said, I have used it in all my petrol burning machines almost exclusively for over twenty years, both old and new, with NO, NONE WHAT SO EVER, negative impact on any machine.  That's been my experience.  Its all we can get around Chicago, and works fine in my 80s era stuff as well as new. 

[stormshearon]

We have been forced to live with ethanol in fuel since the 70's, as part of the energy independence movement from congress started during the carter administration during the 'fuel embargo' started by opec. You can read a bunch about it a bit here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_the_United_States.

The real issue for a lot of us is that ethanol has fewer btu's of energy per gallon than pure gas - which means you do burn more to go a set distance. It is hygroscopic, which mostly means that it will absorb water - and it is the water that can be an problem in the fuel system if it comes out of suspension. If you keep the fuel fresh in the tank it mostly is not a problem - though some Ducati owners would argue that point. Some of us also don't think giving subsidies for it are good - total to date about 45 billion US dollars. It can mess up some gas powered yard tools.

Oh - and it tends to make some really big agri-business folks here in the us richer than they already are.

Personally, I think we should not put land to use growing alcohol feed stocks, but put the engineering into better fuel efficiency for engines. Use the land for food or leave it fallow.

[bad Chad]

Valid point, it does have fewer BTUs.  But in my experience, it's imperceptible.  Someone said you get a 10% loss in milage, that's not at all accurate.  If you are going to use 10% alcohol fuel, you will lose something in the order of 3% fuel economy, at that might be a substantial overstatement.

Bottom line, don't worry about it, you won't notice it. 

[kirkemon]

I'm trying the Bel Ray fuel additive, it claims: "neutralizes all of the harmful effects that ethanol".
http://www.belray.com/all-one-fuel-treatment-0

[TimmyTheHog]

I'm trying the Bel Ray fuel additive, it claims: "neutralizes all of the harmful effects that ethanol".
http://www.belray.com/all-one-fuel-treatment-0

I have seen some people using it...

Let us know how it goes!

[twowings]

When you travel around the U.S. by bike, you don't always have a choice unless you do prior research to find the 'pure' gasoline outlets...I can't honestly say my 2V Norge 1200 runs any differently than terrific on ethanol-laced or 'real' gasoline, from 88 to 92 octane...it may or may not be running as efficiently as it could but the 'butt dyno' doesn't detect any appreciable difference...howeve r, there is a DEFINITE effect on the plastic tank of the Norge and you'd better be prepared to muscle it back into place if removal is necessary subsequent to any ethanol fuel being added...I try to use non-ethanol fuel if available but traveling through Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas, and other corn-centric agricultural enclaves it's like a religion with many suppliers...what long-term damage may be happening to my engine/fuel lines/throttle bodies/fuel tank I have yet to find out...YMMV

[yogidozer]

next they'll be adding broccoli 

[Lannis]

Valid point, it does have fewer BTUs.  But in my experience, it's imperceptible.  Someone said you get a 10% loss in milage, that's not at all accurate.  If you are going to use 10% alcohol fuel, you will lose something in the order of 3% fuel economy, at that might be a substantial overstatement.

Bottom line, don't worry about it, you won't notice it.

"It is too late for me, son" ...

Although your strategy will probably work for some folks ...



I've already committed the crime of "noticing" that ethanol fuel doesn't age well, makes fiberglass tanks destroy themselves, attacks diaphragm carburetors and float needle tips, and drops my fuel mileage a measured 10%.   

As long as I don't notice, though, or find something else on which to blame it, I could be just fine .... 

Lannis

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I haven't experienced any E10 fuel related issues with any of my gasoline powered machines - ever. My two Lawn-Boys, Snow-Boy, Echo trimmer, Husqvarna leaf blower, Husqvarna and Remington chainsaws, Yardvaark chipper/shredder/blower/vac and two Gravelys all run it. The Lawn-Boy oil I use has a stabilizer in it (always has) and I use a stabilizer in the other's gas during whatever the off-season is for each machine. No carbs have needed rebuilding, no fuel hoses have rotted off, no fuel tank issues (rust, swelling, etc.). All of them start easily and run well. The Echo sometimes needs a little mixture adjustment between (infrequent) uses, but that's it.

The motorcycles (currently two Guzzis and the Morini) have likewise suffered no issues. I do use the latest float needles with Viton tips and Tygon fuel hose, but that's the extent of any "work" necessary due to E10. My mpg is quite good for each bike: 43 for the Convert, 50 for the Ambo and 65 for the Morini. The two times I've run "pure gas" in the Convert, it ran worse and gas mileage dropped! Same thing happened with my old Yamaha XT500.

I do know that mpg has dropped on my crusty old VW Eurovan (approx. 3 mpg) and maybe the Mercedes would do better on pure gas (currently averaging 25 mpg) too.

Look, I'm no big fan of having ethanol in my gasoline, but for me at least "the sky isn't falling" because of it. And are you sure that all of the issues are due solely to the ethanol in the gasoline? There are lots of volatile chemicals in modern gasoline and isn't it possible that one of those additives could be causing the issues? Just a thought.   

[Lannis]

I haven't experienced any E10 fuel related issues with any of my gasoline powered machines - ever. My two Lawn-Boys, Snow-Boy, Echo trimmer, Husqvarna leaf blower, Husqvarna and Remington chainsaws, Yardvaark chipper/shredder/blower/vac and two Gravelys all run it. The Lawn-Boy oil I use has a stabilizer in it (always has) and I use a stabilizer in the other's gas during whatever the off-season is for each machine. No carbs have needed rebuilding, no fuel hoses have rotted off, no fuel tank issues (rust, swelling, etc.). All of them start easily and run well. The Echo sometimes needs a little mixture adjustment between (infrequent) uses, but that's it.

The motorcycles (currently two Guzzis and the Morini) have likewise suffered no issues. I do use the latest float needles with Viton tips and Tygon fuel hose, but that's the extent of any "work" necessary due to E10. My mpg is quite good for each bike: 43 for the Convert, 50 for the Ambo and 65 for the Morini. The two times I've run "pure gas" in the Convert, it ran worse and gas mileage dropped! Same thing happened with my old Yamaha XT500.

I do know that mpg has dropped on my crusty old VW Eurovan (approx. 3 mpg) and maybe the Mercedes would do better on pure gas (currently averaging 25 mpg) too.

Look, I'm no big fan of having ethanol in my gasoline, but for me at least "the sky isn't falling" because of it. And are you sure that all of the issues are due solely to the ethanol in the gasoline? There are lots of volatile chemicals in modern gasoline and isn't it possible that one of those additives could be causing the issues? Just a thought.

I don't know.   You're using gas stabilizer, have changed your float needle tips, have changed fuel line, and noticed a change in gas mileage.    I mean .....

I'm not claiming the sky is falling, just that I've found it to be a pain in the butt in motors where I haven't run stabilizer in the fuel, haven't changed out fuel lines, and haven't converted float needles.   And I'm pretty sure you'd be the only guy on the planet who uses ethanol in older fiberglass tanks (Spanish trialers, BSA Shooting Stars, etc) and hasn't found the alcohol attacking it.   That's just chemistry, not Chicken Little hysteria.   It almost HAS to happen ....

Lannis

[Wayne Orwig]

No problem for 10% that I have ever seen. And ethanol raises the octane, so there is value in putting more of it in higher octane gasoline. So I use the low octane stuff to get less ethanol.
I may have seen a very slight reduction in fuel economy. Maybe.
My lawn mower runs gasoline from a can that has been in the shed for about a year. It has 5 gallons of the cheap 10% stuff. No issues.

[bad Chad]

I'm  calling BS on you Lannis.   10% ethanol will NOT lower mileage by 10%!  If it did, then running straight ethanol ought to yield 0 mpg!    But even if my science thinking is off, I can report that to my disappointment, as I get quite excited to run across pure gasoline, it makes no real difference in mpg, certainly nothing close to 10%.   It's a thrill to find premium no octane gas when traveling, but aside from my wish, mpg and performance are static.   
I have never had a fuel related problem with any internal combustion motor due to ethanol.  Shrug

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I'm  calling BS on you Lannis.   10% ethanol will NOT lower mileage by 10%!  If it did, then running straight ethanol ought to yield 0 mpg!    But even if my science thinking is off, I can report that to my disappointment, as I get quite excited to run across pure gasoline, it makes no real difference in mpg, certainly nothing close to 10%.   It's a thrill to find premium no octane gas when traveling, but aside from my wish, mpg and performance are static.   
I have never had a fuel related problem with any internal combustion motor due to ethanol.  Shrug

On my Eurovan, gas mileage dropped from an average of 25 mpg to an average of 22 mpg, so that's a bit more than 10%. Back in the '90s, before we had E10 all the time - only "oxygenated" gas during the Winter months - my Audis (5000S and 80 Quattro) would regularly drop 2-3 mpg when the supply was switched the "Winter blend". That was right around 10% for each, so my experience with fuel injected, knock sensor equipped automobile engines seems to agree with Lannis' experience.

The same can not be said for any of my carbureted, air-cooled, "low-tech" motorcycles.