V7 Map Comparison - GT vs Beetle Map (GuzziDiag)

[Kiwi Dave]

Ok, where did that come from?

It's a reference to the Oz $100 note, which is basically grey in colour.

I don't think there's a shark printed on it.

[pete roper]

Look for a picture of an Australian $100 note.

Our banknotes are pretty colourful, the 100 is grey. A grey nurse is a type of shark commonly found in southern Australian waters, so.............

Pete

PS. It isn't strictly accurate any more as the note designs changed in 2015. The last 'Grey' $100 has a picture of Dougie Mawson on it. In 2015 there was a new design with Nellie Melba, (Opera singer.) on the front and John Monash, (General.) on the back and it's not really grey any more.

[beetle]

The hundy is mostly green. Only the heads of Nellie Melba and John Monash are grey. Are you lot colour blind?

[pete roper]

No, just poor so we don't see a grey nurse very often!

[beetle]

I don't  see 'em much nether. Never heard 'em called a grey nurse neither. Just a boy from the outback, I guess.

[pete roper]

$100-Grey nurse.
$50-Pineapple
$20-Lobster
$10-Bluebottle
$5-Can't remember?

[oldbike54]

 50 Twiggers = a grey nurse ?

 Dusty

[smdl]

$100-Grey nurse.
$50-Pineapple
$20-Lobster
$10-Bluebottle
$5-Can't remember?

$5 - Prawn

Also, $100 was grey from '84-'96, when it changed to mostly green

Hope to get there someday to actually see them!   

Unrelated, but funny video from when Australia changed to the dollar from the pound:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZTeWLA1LAs

Cheers,
Shaun

[Andy1]

Internet OK out here in the wilds of Lanzarote.  I was not sure if we would have Wi-Fi or not.
First, an apology to Peter R as I was a bit over sensitive.  Glad you do have a V7 Peter as your input about these bikes will be valuable.  Assume it is a 1TB model?

Beetle - do the ECUs adjust for temperature and altitude?  Just a thought, but my bike is used in UK at around 10 - 25C max, near sea level....so will run leaner than those lucky people who live in warmer climes or at higher altitudes. 

Andy1
 

[ponti_33609]

Just another report.  This was my first day back to work after holiday shutdown.  I can't describe enough how much smoother the bike is with no stutter at start-up (I don't wait for a proper warm-up either).  Also, after reading many of these posts I will say I have less "gas-smell" with the Beetle map as well which is consistent to people saying perhaps other maps "throw" fuel at the problem.

Anyway, just wanted to add my first ride back to work report.

[Kev m]

Beetle - do the ECUs adjust for temperature and altitude?

Whether we're talking Speed-Density (like most bike EFI systems) or Mass-Air Flow, I don't think I've heard of a modern EFI system that does not. And we're talking decades now like back to the early Weber-Marelli EFI system that Guzzi and Harley both shared in the 90s.

EDIT - perhaps this will help explain (see my added bold):

http://www.magnetimarelli.com/business_areas/powertrain/motorbikes/ecu

Mechatronic Integrated Unit (MIU)

Mechatronic system designed to support the “traditional” architecture and made by integrating the following components in the same unit:
• Mechanic throttle body with diameters from 26 to 38mm and contactless potentiometer
• stepper motor for minimum control management
• air temperature sensor
• intake conduit pressure sensor
• control unit made using high-density SMD technology
• integrated immobilizer system

The MIU can withstand operating temperatures from–30°C to +90°C under complete operational conditions and from -40°C to +105°C in the heat stroke and it is intended for installation on the engine by means of rubber sleeve in order to reduce the levels of vibrations.

The connections to the external input/output are carried out by means of a single connector with 34 ways.

The control unit pilots up to 2 injection channels and 2 independent ignition channels, DC-motor for throttle movement and for those versions that require it, the traction control management is integrated at the logic level. Mixing is controlled by means of 2 lambda probes of the heated ON/OFF type.

Engine management can be selected by the rider through two different “mappings”.

The MIU is designed for application to single-cylinder engines, but can also be used on twin-cylinder engines with single throttle body supply.

The system integrates all the main components of the injection system, ensuring a significant reduction in the number of components to be managed during the assembly and final testing phase of the engines/vehicles, with clear benefits in terms of production flexibility.

 

[Andy1]

Thanks Kev - with Beetle saying the ECU was very basic I was wondering how basic it could be.
There is then the question of how much the ECU changes the a/f ratio when these variables alter.


In the text you quote about the MIU it says:

"Engine management can be selected by the rider through two different �mappings�.

We don't have this function available on the V7 MkI (nor I think the MkII?) - but it might be useful for comparing two maps while out on the road.

AndyB

[oldbike54]

 Beetle is still working on the latest V7 ECU . Inside info suggests this is more than a simple remap , might not hurt to wait a bit and let our Ozzie genius develop his mods .

 Dusty

[Kev m]

Thanks Kev - with Beetle saying the ECU was very crude I was wondering how crude it could be.
There is then the question of how much the ECU changes the a/f ratio when these variables alter.


In the text you quote about the MIU it says:

"Engine management can be selected by the rider through two different �mappings�.

We don't have this function available on the V7 MkI (nor I think the MkII?) - but it might be useful for comparing two maps while out on the road.

AndyB

Yeah, that's a quote from the Marelli website telling us about the basic capabilities of the unit. But that was a feature which was obviously not incorporated into our usage. It raises the interesting question though whether or not the unit could be reprogrammed to accept multiple maps and an external switch added to select between them. We'd have the further issue of how to tell which is selected. But that would be neat if we could select one map say for economy and another for max "performance".

Part of my reluctance to go remapping is that as I've said my bike basically runs flawlessly after the initial warmup and I don't want to disrupt my economy/range (which is excellent at an easy 250-280 miles and sometimes more).

[tiger_one]

You always should read your stock/current map and save before writing in a new map.  If you want to go back to original, you have that choice.  Also you can load both maps in the editor and compare them.

When I was changing maps on my Griso, I kept 2 copies of everything, laptop and USB drive.  Still have the maps, but not the bike.  :-)

[smdl]

It raises the interesting question though whether or not the unit could be reprogrammed to accept multiple maps and an external switch added to select between them. We'd have the further issue of how to tell which is selected. But that would be neat if we could select one map say for economy and another for max "performance".

I'm sure that there ar some VW engineers who could help with that.   

Cheers,
Shaun

[Kev m]

I'm sure that there ar some VW engineers who could help with that.   

Cheers,
Shaun

   

[beetle]

Beetle - do the ECUs adjust for temperature and altitude?  Just a thought, but my bike is used in UK at around 10 - 25C max, near sea level....so will run leaner than those lucky people who live in warmer climes or at higher altitudes.
 

Yes, as Kev mentioned, all FI system correct for temperature and air pressure. Actually, you've got it arse about. It will run more rich at sea level than at altitude. The correction tables add fuel at sea level/high air pressure/cooler temps as the air is more dense, so they add fuel to maintain AFR. At altitude they lean the mixture as the air is less dense. As temps go up, it's leaned out, as they go down, fuel is added. It's a look-up table.

With regard to the two different mappings, I think Guzzi utilise this feature in the late model V7 for traction control. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe when the ABS until senses a traction problem, the ECU switches to a different ignition map or somesuch to affect torque, and hence, traction.

[RANDM]

Apologies if it's a nuffy question Beetle but I'm curious, would
any TPS that would fit work with any type of system,
or are they designed to work specifically with each
other?

Maurie.

[Andy1]

Hi Beetle,
Maybe semantics, but I did not get it the wrong way around. If nothing changes in an injection or carb system then the a/f ratio will be leaner at sea level or when colder (where the air is denser so more available oxygen)  and richer at altitude or when hotter (less available oxygen).

So as you say, compensation in the ECU SHOULD balance this out and maintain a steady a/f ratio at all T/P combinations - but is the standard MG map compensation correct?  I have had to re-jet carbs on microlight engines for operation in Zambia and Nepal where we flew at low density altitudes and as you say the tables are available to make the adjustments.

No traction control on the V7 MkI, but what happens on the MkII with traction control I have no idea.  As Kev says, a simple switch to be able to toggle between maps might be useful - it may be as simple as adding an extra wire to the plug going to the MIU. 

Andy1

[pete roper]

Yes, as Kev mentioned, all FI system correct for temperature and air pressure. Actually, you've got it arse about. It will run more rich at sea level than at altitude. The correction tables add fuel at sea level/high air pressure/cooler temps as the air is more dense, so they add fuel to maintain AFR. At altitude they lean the mixture as the air is less dense. As temps go up, it's leaned out, as they go down, fuel is added. It's a look-up table.

With regard to the two different mappings, I think Guzzi utilise this feature in the late model V7 for traction control. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe when the ABS until senses a traction problem, the ECU switches to a different ignition map or somesuch to affect torque, and hence, traction.

Yup, thats basically it. The 7SM uses a far more sophisticated system because of its RBW capacity. Both the MUIG and W5AM the traction control is fairly crude, simply retarding the spark I believe, to reduce torque.

Dunno about the second mapping option being used for that though? Given that the MUIG was principally designed for small single cylinder machines would it not make more sense to use the second mapping option for the delta cylinder? Your area though so I'd guess I'd better shaddap!

To be honest I tend to think the Trimap system used by Aprilia and I believe some other firms now is a bit of a wank. Surely given that everything else important stays the same, (Cam timing and lift, intake and exhaust parameters etc.) there will be one mapping solution that will achieve the 'Best' results in terms of overall performance and economy. Anything else is going to be a compromise? Things like a 'Rain' mode simply seem to be a way of allowing people without the necessary skills to operate a vehicle to do so with less risk. Strikes me that getting them to learn bit more would be a better way of dealing with their lack of skills but I suppose if you're a kid and know you're immortal then handling a 140RWHP Tuono 1100 which weighs about as much as a McDonalds 1/4 pounder or are a silly old fart who *Has* to have a huge Cruiser that weighs nearly half a tonne because anything less is a 'Girl's Bike' you probably need all the help you can get! :roll eyes:

Interestingly the Trimap system used on the Mana is completely different as its map selection is nothing to do with with the engine at all. It simply changes the pulley motions of the E-CVT. The difference being that in 'Touring' it hooks the transmission to the maximum torque point of the motor and in 'Sport' it moves the break points higher up the RPM range for more power. God alone knows what 'Rain' mode does as, as far as I can make out, it simply fills the CVT up with custard! At least thats what it feels like!

Pete

[Kev m]

Apologies if it's a nuffy question Beetle but I'm curious, would
any TPS that would fit work with any type of system,
or are they designed to work specifically with each
other?

Maurie.

Though many TPS's are similar and some from one system may be adapted or adjusted to work on others, no they are not all compatible for various reasons:

1. Calibration
2. Physical mounting

Not to mention they are not replaceable separately from the throttle body on more and more modern EFI systems.

[beetle]

Correct. The MIU has an integrated TPS. Failure means new ECU.

[Kev m]

So as you say, compensation in the ECU SHOULD balance this out and maintain a steady a/f ratio at all T/P combinations - but is the standard MG map compensation correct?  I have had to re-jet carbs on microlight engines for operation in Zambia and Nepal where we flew at low density altitudes and as you say the tables are available to make the adjustments.

Well, since we're getting lost in semantics you'd have to better define "correct" to answer that.

I'll answer it a different way.

I've not seen a modern injected vehicle the doesn't basically run "correctly" be it at sea level or altitude.

Yes many can be made to run "better" but that's different than saying they were wrong to begin with.

Most EFI systems are designed to run at or near the stochiometric ideal air: fuel ratio (for cat-con operation) of 14.7:1 under certain conditions and go rich in others (WOT for example). As such they are designed to maintain this ratio at sea level or any expected altitude.

It's unlikely they are not doing so if they have been certified for EPA or EU emissions. And so it's unlikely the fueling tables are not "correct" for those conditions.

Semantics about the term "correct" aside.

[Andy1]

Peter, unfortunately it is easier to dumb down the bike than train the rider.....I am not a fan of new riders having ABS / traction control.  They should learn how to ride correctly...and this again follows through to there logically being just one optimum ECU map with others being dumbed down versions.

Rode a Mana in Jersey where the slow speed restrictions and country roads made it the ideal bike.  Little engine breaking though, but the cubby hole in the tank was useful.

AndyB
 

[Rough Edge racing]

It raises the interesting question though whether or not the unit could be reprogrammed to accept multiple maps and an external switch added to select between them. We'd have the further issue of how to tell which is selected. But that would be neat if we could select one map say for economy and another for max "performance".

 When you're riding for economy the manifold vacuum or pressure is higher, the RPM lower, less throttle with gradual movement...A single program ECU can take care of that by leaning the mixture and advancing the timing, within reason....When you're on the throttle with higher rpm ,more throttle opening with faster acceleration, low intake vacuum and higher road speed that same program fattens the fuel mixture and pulls back the timing....it's not like the bike has other features like variable valve timing or devices that change exhaust flow...

[beetle]

Maybe semantics, but I did not get it the wrong way around. If nothing changes in an injection or carb system then the a/f ratio will be leaner at sea level or when colder (where the air is denser so more available oxygen)  and richer at altitude or when hotter (less available oxygen).

Er, no. I read it like you wrote it. You can't think carburettor when talking fuel injection. Forget about carburettors.

So as you say, compensation in the ECU SHOULD balance this out and maintain a steady a/f ratio at all T/P combinations - but is the standard MG map compensation correct?  I have had to re-jet carbs on microlight engines for operation in Zambia and Nepal where we flew at low density altitudes and as you say the tables are available to make the adjustments.

All FI, not just Guzzi. Enough with the carburettors! 

No traction control on the V7 MkI, but what happens on the MkII with traction control I have no idea.  As Kev says, a simple switch to be able to toggle between maps might be useful - it may be as simple as adding an extra wire to the plug going to the MIU.

Nup. Not that easy. The ECU can be programmed to accept a toggle input, but not by us. It's all done in the firmware, which only the OEM can access.

[Andy1]

Hi Kev,
In UK there seems to an issue of V7 bikes faltering at start up and hesitating at low revs.  The problem appears to be less in the US (eg your bike).  Why??  Maybe due to UK being colder in the riding season and perhaps lower and the map not adequately enrichening the mixture to compensate for this?  Without access to the maps and knowing how the MG compensation compares with the tables I can not say if the compensation is CORRECT - but in UK conditions the standard V7 engine seems to run lean.  Is my use of CORRECT clear now?

As an aside, before I put in thinner oil in the forks, they only worked in any way adequately on our one day of 30C temperatures! (...a typical temperature in Italy).

Andy1

[beetle]

Dunno about the second mapping option being used for that though? Given that the MUIG was principally designed for small single cylinder machines would it not make more sense to use the second mapping option for the delta cylinder? Your area though so I'd guess I'd better shaddap!

Well, in the V7 map there's a table that's all zeroes. We think it's an ignition delta map. The same map in the V7II has values in it. The actual fuel maps function independently of each other. So there's no delta fuel map, there's a left & right fuel map.

 

[Kev m]

When you're riding for economy the manifold vacuum or pressure is higher, the RPM lower, less throttle with gradual movement...A single program ECU can take care of that by leaning the mixture and advancing the timing, within reason....When you're on the throttle with higher rpm ,more throttle opening with faster acceleration, low intake vacuum and higher road speed that same program fattens the fuel mixture and pulls back the timing....it's not like the bike has other features like variable valve timing or devices that change exhaust flow...

In theory, except if you're looking to solve "performance" like cold start, stumbling or surging that some complain about. That is if the answer is enrichening all over the map and shutting off lambdas.

I mean you just can't safely approach the leanness of closed loop operation with an open loop setup which is why we have closed loop injection.