Vintage Stereo Equipment

[ozarquebus]

The original question of "how to fix my Marantz" was well answered it appears.
Then there was a discussion on how to pick a good vintage amp.

Don't know if this will help anyone, but if I was going to build a superior sounding stereo, I would ask myself some questions.
1. What type of music and how loud does it need to be?
2. Size of room. (20 watts with good bookshelf speakers in a cozy den is a wonderful 'near-field' listening exeperience)

Then pick a speaker type. The speaker you pick will be the most important decision.
A new design will probably be best unless you are interested in vintage designs to try to save some bucks, do a little refurbishing, and like to research and learn.
Here is an audio forum discussion on many vintage speakers: https://www.stereophile.com/content/loudspeaker-hall-fame-1.

Here is some insight from what I have learned, but in no way is that the only way.

Bass sounds best when it comes out of the main speakers aimed right at you, rather than a subwoofer, but satellite systems can sound very good and I added a subwoofer even though I have 15" woofers in the mains.

Passive Crossovers have a large effect on sound and eat power, so if you are using crossovers in your speakers, they better be good ones. Often overlooked, but they can be complex and either good or bad. Hi end manufacturers put a lot of work into voicing the speaker with the crossover. 40 year old vintage speaker crossovers probably don't work right, anymore. By extension of that though, there are the full range single driver speakers like Fostex, Audio Nirvana and the hallmark: Lowthers that use no crossover. Those that like single driver systems are totally convinced they are superior to all else. Single driver speakers are not very good at loud rock and roll or loud pipe organ music.

Do you want high efficiency speakers? Every 3dB of speaker efficiency (SPL: 1 watt at 1 meter)indicates a doubling or halving of their power need for same volume. So a 10watt signal will be as loud as 20watts on a 98dB efficiency speaker than on a 95dB speaker.
If you are using micro flea power like with a tube amp using one #45 triode tube per channel making 2 watts, then you are going to use a high efficiency speaker like a Lowther or have it run compression driver horns which are also very high efficiency.
  A speaker cabinet with multiple drivers and a crossoever network will require a lot more power. For instance Dalhlquist DQ-10 s have 5 speakers per channel and a crossover half the size of a chessboard. They only have a 10 inch woofer, but can easily handle 400 watts and need it. If one driver is bad or if the crossover isn't working right, they sound poor.
 There is a large school of thought that low powered amplifiers with single or perhaps twin out put devices, ie one or two transistors or one or two tubes per channel, produce the cleanest and most un-adulterated sound. High powered amps will have many parallel push-pull pairs per channel, which produces a less precise signal. This is why high efficiency speakers are desirable for the low powered amplifiers.

So, either high or low efficiency can sound great, but generally  efficiency may be a good indicator for comparison.

2-way or three way or 4-way or 5way?? I thought 2-way was all I would ever need and that could be true, but adding multiple drivers is a way for a manufacturer to improve the combined sound of a speaker array by splitting up the duties of each driver, so it is only using that driver's sweetspot. This is a way of producing a good speaker array (ie a tower) by using cheaper speaker drivers. What you are paying for in that case is the work of the designers in engineering the box and the crossover and doing a lot of R&D to get the sound right from budget speaker drivers. The other end of this is the high end speak manufacturers that use all high quaility drivers :ie Focal Grand Utopia. This is the speaker I would recommend for greatest sound with unlimited budget.




For the rest of us mortals, the process goes on.




 A good starting point would be to get the best Monitor type speakers like some  ELAC Uni-fi UB5 or Klipsch RP-160M with a NAD amp C 316BEE V2 and an 8" self powered subwoofer of some kind. Bookshelf speakers can have performance that defy their size and are testament that sometimes huge tower speakers are popular for the same reason some apartment dwelling urban people need huge diesel pickup trucks.
  You will be forced to listen to MP3s or CDs unfortunately which are a less than optimum starting point for original recording quality, but fortunately you should be able to hear the difference on this system when you upgrade to a Thorens (edited spelling) turntable with a Grado cartridge and listen only to virgin vinyl records.

After listening to that for a while, you will have a good basis for comparison and will know where to go.


Vintage speakers may not be so great unless that specific model has an outstanding reputation for being outstanding and are in top working condition with original drivers. Vietnam era Sansuis or Harmon Kardon speakers you shipped from the PX in Saigon may not be so great anymore if they even were in the first place.

[LowRyter]

Since this is an old thread, forgive me if I repeat myself. 

I've had the same main speakers since 1974.  These are Norman Labs  with 12" woofers and two 1" tweeters with 3 position crossover in a sealed acoustic suspension case.  These speakers had great bass for the time.  I've had the woofers re-coned 3 times and replaced the capacitors once.  I noticed about ten years ago, one of the speakers would rattle with loud heavy bass.   So I finally added a SVS 400wt sub and set the cut-off at 100hz.  What a difference.  For some reason the whole sound of the speakers brightened up.  Much cleaner sound.  Of course the bass is clearer and more precise.  The rattle is (mostly) gone (I could perhaps raise the cut off point but it really takes some cranking to get a rattle).   In fact, I've tuned the speakers for more mid range and toned down the treble and bass.  My receiver allows me to use equalizer settings and I have additional adjustment on the sub.

After all these years, they still seem to work and sound OK to my ears.   Perhaps I am just too lazy or cheap (Guzzi content) to purchase new.  And how how would I know if a new speaker will sound better in my house than the ones I had?

[AJ Huff]

Thanks for the info on vintage speakers Ozarquebus! Every time I see them come up I think maaaaybe. But I don't truthfully need them. I have a small room and my speakers work fine for my needs. But I get tempted every time.

-AJ

[fossil]

I noticed about ten years ago, one of the speakers would rattle with loud heavy bass.   So I finally added a SVS 400wt sub and set the cut-off at 100hz.  What a difference.  For some reason the whole sound of the speakers brightened up.  Much cleaner sound. 

That´s simple. Doppler effect strongly reduced.

[LowRyter]

That´s simple. Doppler effect strongly reduced.

how so?

I see, it's the two woofers coming from left and right vs a single woofer source?

Still, the mid and top seems so much cleaner.  I was thinking the amp might work less.

[fossil]

No. Let´s assume, a woofer can transmit from 20 Hz to 400 Hz. A really deep bass of about 22 Hz lets the membrane swing with a big amplitude. Now a second tone of - let´s say - 220 Hz is also to be transmitted. With of course a much lesser amplitude. This second frequency now is increased and decreased in the beat of the bass. Remember, the amplitude of the deeper tone normally is bigger (think of the IHF A - filter). You know, when something is approaching you its sound appears higher, when it strides away its sound appears lower than the real frequency. This is the Doppler - effect. Now remember the woofer swings with 22 Hz. It modulates the higher frequency. A subwoofer cuts the real deep frequencies from the "normal" woofer. The lower mids are less modulated, they are clearer.

A very popular example is the JBL Control 1. In its Ur - version or even as "Pro" it was a very nice little speaker. On the edge of being really good. But there was in the past the fitting subwoofer "SB 1". These things connected passed the edge, the system was extremely nice to listen to. Because it was a lot clearer.

This is one of the main reasons why 3-, 4- or even 5-way systems are developed. And one of the reasons why a one-way - system can never sound well as soon as loud bass is involved.

[Rough Edge racing]

 In 1975 I bought a set of Cerwin Vega's I still own. Simple bass and tweeter..I replaced the woofers 20 years ago.....Gone through several brand name tuner/amps that failed before their time.. Currently I use a Yamaha R-N303 ...For the Rockabilly, blues, early country and alternative rock I listen to at moderate volume, sounds as good as it needs to...
 Sound systems opinions are very subjective...

[Guzzistajohn]

 NAD rockin’ since 1982

[fossil]

There is no and will never be a really "neutral" sounding speaker. A speaker which can replay with the same absolute accuracy and precision the voice of Edie Brickell, a banjo, Keith Emerson´s Hammond, a violin, an old European Church organ, a Rolls-Royce Merlin, a symphonic orchestra, a Jackhammer or the voices of your children. So each time a speaker is chosen your own taste and of course your own (financial...) possibilities must be regarded. The fun a certain speaker raises in you. There are a lot of old speakers that can raise a lot of fun in me, JBL K2 S9500 standing in the first row, followed by Altec Lansing 19. But also Pioneer HPM series (and my own S1010), JBL 4311, 4312 and their relatives, Ohm F, Backes und Müller BM6, a lot more. My several types of Philips MFB speakers.

Each of them need very different amplifiers. This can be an old one or a modern one. The JBL 4312 e.g. sounded very good with the Pioneer A707 / 717 /727.

I think it is nice that we today can choose between all the old stuff via Ebay and others. Of course, one should know someone who can mend and repair this old stuff (as I have learned it I can do it myself for my devices). But I have yet to hear a modern speaker that can satisfy me. With the exception of Genelec or other first-rate studio monitor speakers.

[ozarquebus]

If you have a big old paper speaker, like a 12 inch church organ pull, take that and put it in a simple sealed wooden box, then play a Johnny Winter album into it. It doesn't have good bass, but the wailing electric guitar sounds like Johnny Winter is there.

A modern polymer cone or even exotic high tech driver cannot do that single task as well as the old paper cone. Of course, that is what it is supposed to sound like since a typical guitar speaker from that era is just a cheap paper cone and a ferrite magnet. Reproducer mimicing original source.

That is an example how coloration can work for you.
Another example is from people who love strictly violin music or the female voice; they like to use the Infinite Baffle speaker enclosure which is nothing more than an average full range driver in a hole on a board about 2.5 ft square.

No bass, but the resolution of that part of the audible spectrum is best achieved that way.

[bobrebos]

I am in the beginning stages of collecting 70's audio gear.  Been looking for a while but haven't found anything that flips my switch yet for a fair price.  Looking for amp or receiver, tuner, turntable, cassette deck and and a reel to reel.  Been looking which is half of the fun.  Il piece together a setup that I like soon enough. 

[ozarquebus]

bobrebos.
 I went through the same process and became convinced that tubes were the way to go. Later on I discovered that transistor amps can do the job well, too. I discovered that it takes a lot of hours listening to really figure out how good your particular system sounds. Standing in the demonstration room of a stereo shop was a terrible way to decide.
 After years of this and upgrading and trying different approaches, I had about three different stereo systems in operation for comparison. This enabled mixing and matching of different components to isolate and define their individual characteristics. Some stuff was built and most stuff was bought. I was never very good at repairs due to the complexity of consumer electronics. I did discover that simple electronics could be built from scratch due to online schematics, streamlining the design and omitting many of the unnecessary 'bells and whistles' aimed at attracting customers.

 After having achieved good sounding systems I discovered that the original program material was the weakest link.

Farm Club: My initial idea was that CDs were the perfect source since most of my old records were worn and scratchy. I soon discovered this wasn't true and that is made evident by critical listening and the many 'dejittering' devices marketed to remove the digital sound and make it more analog sounding.
 In response to this, I upgraded my turntable and cartridge to a mid range qualiity. It definitely was an improvement over CD, but this took months of listening before I was sure. Unfortunately old scratchy records didn't sound better and I started buying records in excellent to mint condition. In no time it became apparent that the cost of a new record collection was going to be more than the value of all my equipment. A different source of high fidelity recordings needed to be found. Strike 1.
 Reel to reel, the ultimate hi fidelity.  I got a decent Akai pro reel to reel and started scavenging the stacks and found some good original recordings that I though sounded much better than records. Unfortunately that format became re-popularized and the price of tapes is even higher than records. Strike 2. It is a lot of fun to have an R2R tape deck for making mix tapes from records, however.
 Then I discovered digital downloads and quickly saw that MP3 really are lo fidelity, but have a pumped up clarity that is good for loud playing or in the car. I purchased a digital to analog converter, then joined an "audiophile" music streaming internet service with very high sample rates on their "audiophile' digital files and that sounded pretty good, but the number of high sample rate tracks offered was very small with a limited selection. Strike 3.
Take a walk to 1st base: I will mention that at one point I got a high end Pioneer tuner for FM listening, but the radio stations do not strive for excellent sound like they did with 70s album rock stations. It is great fun to have a beam antenna on a tower and be able to rotate it toward stations in distant large cities and use a high end tuner's filters to bring it out.
Extra Innings:
 Finally, oddly enough, I have come back around to the lowly cassette as the ultimate compromise. I do not remember them sounding so good originally, but they were always a car format or in my lo fi system I had as a young man. Today with a good system and a mid grade cassette deck with clean heads, they sound amazingly good. A factory recorded cassette sounds absolutely outstanding. Sometimes a cassette is damaged by magnetism or heat, but a well stored cassette will be good. Later cassette tape technology was improving with Type II tape inside. The little pad falling off under the tape can be easily glued back on and there is an unlimited supply on them for nearly free from discarded gospel and spoken word tapes. Sometimes the tape case tightens and causes tape drag, but this can be repaired if it is a rare recording by transplanting the reels into a donor case. In some case the actual tape becomes sticky and must be buried at sea.
 The essence of using old cassettes for high fi program sources is the fact that they are very cheap. It also brings a certain level of satisfaction when a  38 cent (with military discount) cassette from the good will store of Ray Charles instrumentals is rescued and restored and sounds as good if not better than vinyl.





 

[AJ Huff]

bobrebos.


Extra Innings:
 Finally, oddly enough, I have come back around to the lowly cassette as the ultimate compromise. I do not remember them sounding so good originally, but they were always a car format or in my lo fi system I had as a young man. Today with a good system and a mid grade cassette deck with clean heads, they sound amazingly good. A factory recorded cassette sounds absolutely outstanding. Sometimes a cassette is damaged by magnetism or heat, but a well stored cassette will be good. Later cassette tape technology was improving with Type II tape inside. The little pad falling off under the tape can be easily glued back on and there is an unlimited supply on them for nearly free from discarded gospel and spoken word tapes. Sometimes the tape case tightens and causes tape drag, but this can be repaired if it is a rare recording by transplanting the reels into a donor case. In some case the actual tape becomes sticky and must be buried at sea.
 The essence of using old cassettes for high fi program sources is the fact that they are very cheap. It also brings a certain level of satisfaction when a  38 cent (with military discount) cassette from the good will store of Ray Charles instrumentals is rescued and restored and sounds as good if not better than vinyl.





 

Ouch. I threw out hundreds of cassettes when we moved 3 years ago. That was like a kick in the gut. The only thing that helped was that I had replaced most of them with CD. For me, I'm all in with CD. I never liked vinyl. It's not portable. It scratches. You have to get up to turn it over. There's no seek or fast forward function. I loaned a prized EP of mine once upon a time to a friend and he returned it to me warped. He had left it in his truck while we were at work on a hot summer day. That was it for me. CD came out and I went all in. I get that good vinyl has better sound. But the too many cons to one single pro, that I'm not even sure I can hear at this age, isn't worth the time or money for me to invest in vinyl. But it's interesting what you say about cassette. I had what I believe to be a good mid-range deck, mid-80's Denon, and I can still remember the tape hiss. That went away with CD and I liked that.

-AJ

[bobrebos]

bobrebos.
 I went through the same process and became convinced that tubes were the way to go. Later on I discovered that transistor amps can do the job well, too. I discovered that it takes a lot of hours listening to really figure out how good your particular system sounds. Standing in the demonstration room of a stereo shop was a terrible way to decide.
 After years of this and upgrading and trying different approaches, I had about three different stereo systems in operation for comparison. This enabled mixing and matching of different components to isolate and define their individual characteristics. Some stuff was built and most stuff was bought. I was never very good at repairs due to the complexity of consumer electronics. I did discover that simple electronics could be built from scratch due to online schematics, streamlining the design and omitting many of the unnecessary 'bells and whistles' aimed at attracting customers.

 After having achieved good sounding systems I discovered that the original program material was the weakest link.

Farm Club: My initial idea was that CDs were the perfect source since most of my old records were worn and scratchy. I soon discovered this wasn't true and that is made evident by critical listening and the many 'dejittering' devices marketed to remove the digital sound and make it more analog sounding.
 In response to this, I upgraded my turntable and cartridge to a mid range qualiity. It definitely was an improvement over CD, but this took months of listening before I was sure. Unfortunately old scratchy records didn't sound better and I started buying records in excellent to mint condition. In no time it became apparent that the cost of a new record collection was going to be more than the value of all my equipment. A different source of high fidelity recordings needed to be found. Strike 1.
 Reel to reel, the ultimate hi fidelity.  I got a decent Akai pro reel to reel and started scavenging the stacks and found some good original recordings that I though sounded much better than records. Unfortunately that format became re-popularized and the price of tapes is even higher than records. Strike 2. It is a lot of fun to have an R2R tape deck for making mix tapes from records, however.
 Then I discovered digital downloads and quickly saw that MP3 really are lo fidelity, but have a pumped up clarity that is good for loud playing or in the car. I purchased a digital to analog converter, then joined an "audiophile" music streaming internet service with very high sample rates on their "audiophile' digital files and that sounded pretty good, but the number of high sample rate tracks offered was very small with a limited selection. Strike 3.
Take a walk to 1st base: I will mention that at one point I got a high end Pioneer tuner for FM listening, but the radio stations do not strive for excellent sound like they did with 70s album rock stations. It is great fun to have a beam antenna on a tower and be able to rotate it toward stations in distant large cities and use a high end tuner's filters to bring it out.
Extra Innings:
 Finally, oddly enough, I have come back around to the lowly cassette as the ultimate compromise. I do not remember them sounding so good originally, but they were always a car format or in my lo fi system I had as a young man. Today with a good system and a mid grade cassette deck with clean heads, they sound amazingly good. A factory recorded cassette sounds absolutely outstanding. Sometimes a cassette is damaged by magnetism or heat, but a well stored cassette will be good. Later cassette tape technology was improving with Type II tape inside. The little pad falling off under the tape can be easily glued back on and there is an unlimited supply on them for nearly free from discarded gospel and spoken word tapes. Sometimes the tape case tightens and causes tape drag, but this can be repaired if it is a rare recording by transplanting the reels into a donor case. In some case the actual tape becomes sticky and must be buried at sea.
 The essence of using old cassettes for high fi program sources is the fact that they are very cheap. It also brings a certain level of satisfaction when a  38 cent (with military discount) cassette from the good will store of Ray Charles instrumentals is rescued and restored and sounds as good if not better than vinyl.





 

Outstanding information.  Thank You!!!   

[dguzzi]

I have a double CD player/burner. I can copy a cd, record from LP, tape, radio, or other. However its much easier to use a usb stick except for recordings that aren't readily available for download (most of my LP's)

[BRIO]

Wasn't NAD top of the line? That stuff is under $100.

-AJ

NAD was the new kid on the block that went head to head with more expensive gear (NAD 3020 being the most expensive). I currently own a NAD streamer and use it with ATC loudspeakers that I bought on a work trip to London.

Some brands are Heirloom quality. Think Accuphase, Luxman (pre/post alpine), Audio Research, Pass Labs etc.  But you’ll pay out the nose...

[Dilliw]

There is no and will never be a really "neutral" sounding speaker. A speaker which can replay with the same absolute accuracy and precision the voice of Edie Brickell, a banjo, Keith Emerson´s Hammond, a violin, an old European Church organ, a Rolls-Royce Merlin, a symphonic orchestra, a Jackhammer or the voices of your children. So each time a speaker is chosen your own taste and of course your own (financial...) possibilities must be regarded. The fun a certain speaker raises in you. There are a lot of old speakers that can raise a lot of fun in me, JBL K2 S9500 standing in the first row, followed by Altec Lansing 19. But also Pioneer HPM series (and my own S1010), JBL 4311, 4312 and their relatives, Ohm F, Backes und Müller BM6, a lot more. My several types of Philips MFB speakers.

Each of them need very different amplifiers. This can be an old one or a modern one. The JBL 4312 e.g. sounded very good with the Pioneer A707 / 717 /727.

I think it is nice that we today can choose between all the old stuff via Ebay and others. Of course, one should know someone who can mend and repair this old stuff (as I have learned it I can do it myself for my devices). But I have yet to hear a modern speaker that can satisfy me. With the exception of Genelec or other first-rate studio monitor speakers.

Now that Oscar Heil's patent has expired there's been a reinsurance of Air Motion Transfer speakers and ESS, the original licensed builder, has cut the price on their line.  I've got the Great Heil's mated to a pair of Hornshoppe Horns with Ed's crossover; Ed built the Horns to be a stand alone single driver but now that he's fallen in love with the AMT again I think he's working on something else to mate to it.  That should be fun.

[ozarquebus]

Dillw,
"Great Heil's mated to a pair of Hornshoppe Horns "
 I think you have the best system described in this thread, for sure!

[roadventure]

I have a stereo. Separate amp, pre-amp and tuner and tower speakers.  It sounds best to me and is therefore the best system.  I hope this settles the discussion of what equipment was or is the best. 

[huub]

Now that Oscar Heil's patent has expired there's been a reinsurance of Air Motion Transfer speakers and ESS, the original licensed builder, has cut the price on their line.  I've got the Great Heil's mated to a pair of Hornshoppe Horns with Ed's crossover; Ed built the Horns to be a stand alone single driver but now that he's fallen in love with the AMT again I think he's working on something else to mate to it.  That should be fun.

I run a set of ESS AMT1 on my quad 33/303 system.
great speakers.. suits the quad amazingly well

[ozarquebus]

If you could find some vintage Snell Acoustics K bookshelf speakers, they hit way out of their league and are reasonably priced. Any vintage transistor twin amp that has its own power supply for each channel would probably be  good vintage risk for great sound. Any pair of mono amps. Any working V-Fet amp. (replacement V-Fets unobtainable). I have never liked Magneplanars or electrostatic speakers, but some bow down to them 4 times a day. The original Advent loudspeaker is a good vintage baseline.
 I would like to try some kind of a Tannoy GOLD tower. There is something about Tannoy...

[Lefty]

I’ve got a Marantz 2250B with the wood case that is my favorite. Wouldn’t trade it for anything.

[craigclu]

Affordable audio gear has always included Adcom in the mix.  Add some Klipsch KG or Heresy series speakers (may need re-coning as they're getting on in years now) and you'll be amazed at the fidelity and easy power.  Some of this stuff is floating around at incredible prices these days. 

I'll add:  I bought an affordable Akai turntable with USB outputs for digitizing LP's and have been pleasantly surprised at how well it works for creating CD's and thumb-drive music that's very usable in my vehicles and good enough for casual home listening and not adding wear to your valued LP's.

[LowRyter]

Some of this vintage stuff would burn my wallet.

And I admit that most of you guys are speaking way over my head.  I am also the least mechanical and technical person on this board. 

But that's why I love to be here. 

[fossil]

For a good reason speakers like the Klipsch Heresy III are still in production (sort of Guzzi content).

[BRIO]

Some of this vintage stuff would burn my wallet.

And I admit that most of you guys are speaking way over my head.  I am also the least mechanical and technical person on this board. 

But that's why I love to be here.

Don’t feel bad. Much of the stuff posted in this thread is none sense posted by old people who think they know what they are talking about. Lots of Dunning-Kruger effect going on but somehow I still love being here😉

[Bill]

Bought a McIntosh MA 5100 Preamp, Amp in 1968 for $500 new. That was a lot of money  back then for a 20 year old.
 Never replaced it, she's the only Amp I'll ever need. Never needed service and it still works and looks like the day I bought it. 
Bill

[mobiker]

I've been using the same system for 20+ years now. That's vintage in audio terms.

Marantz 8B EL34 tube amp. Back in the nineties Marantz commissioned Valve Amplification Company (VAC) to reproduce the model 8B and 9 amps and the 7c preamp. This is one of those so its only 20 years old or so versus 50+ for an original. I bought and sold several kilobuck amps until I got this one and then just stopped. Its a great amp.

I use a Creek OBH-12 passive preamp. Really just a volume controller. Shouldn't work that great with a tube amp, but it does. I also have a Van Alsitine Super Pas3 I built in the eighties out of trashed Dynaco and a Van Alstine kit. It mates really well with the Marantz, but currently has a problem and needs to be fixed.

Source is an Acoustic Research EB101 turntable with Shure cartridge and a Theta transport (Jade) and DAC (DS Pro Basic III).

Speakers are ProAc Response 2s. I went through a lot of high end speakers before settling on these.

The system obviously suits me. It'll play old geezer rock just fine. Maybe a little light on the bass so for headbanging might want something else or I could hook up the two 15" Janis Wi subs I've got, but haven't used in years. I listen to a lot of acoustic music, bluegrass for an example, and on this its a superb sounding system.

[Twinboy]

Well here is another topic that I may be able to add to. I worked in a stereo store in the early 70's that was in a small college town while I was attending the university. We sold Marantz, Kenwood ,Advent KLH and lots of albums and lifestyle accessories.Through them I bought a Crown amp and preamp and had Advent and Cerwin Vega speakers which I still use in the basement shop /bike area. I had a desire to upgrade to a more modern system. I began looking at various sites and in the course of about 2 years have a 90's McIntosh/ Klipsch  setup that is amazing. I found a McIntosh C-39 Pre and McIntosh 7106 Amp for very reasonable deals on ebay. I added a Mac CD player and Tuner to go with my Thorens Turntable that I had from college. I found a beautiful set of 90's Klipschorns locally on craigslist that will let me crank the Macs up without distortion. 1 watt input will yield 105 db. The Mac has 6 100 watt channels so we have surround and a subwoofer. I have a close friend that buys, sells and trades vinyl. I have been able to significantly grow my album collection in the last year. The big Klipschorns require dedicated corners and absolutely fill the room with clean music. It helps to search wisely and know the value of the components while you seek what you are interested in. It has been fun!

[ozarquebus]

TwinBoy. Marantz 8B. That one was actually built when Mr Marantz was in charge.
 A 'REAL' Marantz not a Superscope.
That 8B would be the perfect standard to compare other amps.