Ford vs Ferrari

[LowRyter]

Really enjoyed it.  Brings back memories of my youth.  Of course it's still a tear jerker but it's funny and true to the story.  No CG crap, real driving.  Damon gets the voice pretty close even though he doesn't look a lot like Carrol but seems to get "him".  Bales is just great.

The only nit is that some of the other cars are perhaps not quite right regarding the right season or year.

See it you're a fan.

[PeteS]

Its on my list and showing at our local Imax as well as a couple regular theaters. Looks like it should be seen on the big screen.

Pete

[hauto]

My first HO race car was a GT40. Always thought they were a bad ass car.If I hit the lottery I would buy a 2005 GT40. Going to try to see it in the theater this weekend.

[radguzzi]

Sue Ellen and I went to see the film last night.  Wow, absolutely visceral in the display of power of the GT-40s and actually all machines.

Love the flick, great story.

[JJ]

A group of us are going next week...a must see for our generation!!

[LowRyter]

There was little about the Cobra FIA program.  The movie was largely about Shelby and the GT40.  At the beginning there was some SCCA racing with the Cobras.  In fact, when Lee Iacocca came to Shelby to discuss LeMans, Shelby was thinking that Ford wanted to collect on the Ford Cobra engines.  The movie perhaps works better for folks that know the larger story.  The Daytona Coupes were only in the background, no mention about them racing at LeMans and finishing 4th in 1964  before Shelby took on the GT40 (the English GT40s DNF'd).

[cliffrod]

It may be a feel-good movie as long as you don't look too close.   

the repro GT40s in the movie are reportedly running small block Chevrolet engines instead of real Ford engines.  This has been under discussion for a while on a Ford forum that I've been on for years.  Not a good pr move imho or that of other serious Ford fans.  The Ferraris probably aren't running original Ferrari engines either, but the movie isn't celebrating their results.

Kinda like doing a movie about Dr John starring a CX500-engined versions of his bikes... 

[oldbike54]

 Probably kinda hard to find Holman & Moody side oiler 427 Ford engines these days .

 Dusty

[SmithSwede]

I’m really looking forward to seeing this movie. 

But I’m confused.  Who should I be rooting for?

On the one hand, I’m a red-blooded ‘Mercian who lives in freaking Texas, just like Carroll.  I don’t need a bunch of prissy  furriners with weird accents who don’t eat chili messing around with ‘Merican stuff cause because then, well, they deserve a boot in their a**.

On the other hand, I’m totally gaga for Italian Street machines like Moto Guzzi.   Ducati.   And not so much Harley.
 
So does that mean . . .  Ferrari is my team?

Help.   

[cliffrod]

Probably kinda hard to find Holman & Moody side oiler 427 Ford engines these days .

 Dusty

Any FE series engine, which are all based upon the same basic architecture and challenging for most people to identify from the outside, would still be a far more equitable substitute.   Except for the heads of factory-installed main bearing cap cross bolts (3 per side) visible along the skirt just above oil pan rail, there's virtually no consistent way to externally identify a 427 short block from any other FE.  Many smaller displacement 66-67 blocks had side oiler passages that weren't drilled and even had 66 427 cast on the rear of the block, even though they were only a 352 or 390.

Even a plain 390 in a replica GT40 would be fast enough for anything needed in the movie.  All the dress up goodies that fit a 427 will fit a 390.  They're still plenty of them around and lots of us serious FE fans, including this one who keeps his two Guzzis parked next to his original 428 red-on-red 1967 Galaxie 500...

[oldbike54]

Any FE series engine, which are all based upon the same basic architecture and challenging for most people to identify from the outside, would still be a far more equitable substitute.   Except for the heads of factory-installed main bearing cap cross bolts (3 per side) visible along the skirt just above oil pan rail, there's virtually no consistent way to externally identify a 427 short block from any other FE.  Many smaller displacement 66-67 blocks had side oiler passages that weren't drilled and even had 66 427 cast on the rear of the block, even though they were only a 352 or 390.

Even a plain 390 in a replica GT40 would be fast enough for anything needed in the movie.  All the dress up goodies that fit a 427 will fit a 390.  They're still plenty of them around and lots of us serious FE fans, including this one who keeps his two Guzzis parked next to his original 428 red-on-red 1967 Galaxie 500...

 Then what you need is a documentary , not a Hollywood movie . The documentary would also need to point out that Shelby spent more time in court suing someone or getting sued than doing anything else beginning not long after the success at Lemans . Tricky thing this accuracy thing .

 Dusty

[LowRyter]

It may be a feel-good movie as long as you don't look too close.   

the repro GT40s in the movie are reportedly running small block Chevrolet engines instead of real Ford engines.  This has been under discussion for a while on a Ford forum that I've been on for years.  Not a good pr move imho or that of other serious Ford fans.  The Ferraris probably aren't running original Ferrari engines either, but the movie isn't celebrating their results.

Kinda like doing a movie about Dr John starring a CX500-engined versions of his bikes...

The engine shots were legit.  Insofar as the racing scenes, the sound is dubbed realistically.  Pretty sure that all the Fords were running Ford small block 347 as on the Superformance movie replicas mentioned.  Would guess the other replicas could be running anything.

Again there was mixing and matching of cars that weren't available for the dates of events.   I suppose there were only so many cars available for filming.

[LowRyter]

Then what you need is a documentary , not a Hollywood movie . The documentary would also need to point out that Shelby spent more time in court suing someone or getting sued than doing anything else beginning not long after the success at Lemans . Tricky thing this accuracy thing .

 Dusty

Shel's slipperiness is featured quite a bit in the movie.  They didn't shy away from that.  In one scene, he sold the same car to three different customers.   

[LowRyter]

Any FE series engine, which are all based upon the same basic architecture and challenging for most people to identify from the outside, would still be a far more equitable substitute.   Except for the heads of factory-installed main bearing cap cross bolts (3 per side) visible along the skirt just above oil pan rail, there's virtually no consistent way to externally identify a 427 short block from any other FE.  Many smaller displacement 66-67 blocks had side oiler passages that weren't drilled and even had 66 427 cast on the rear of the block, even though they were only a 352 or 390.

Even a plain 390 in a replica GT40 would be fast enough for anything needed in the movie.  All the dress up goodies that fit a 427 will fit a 390.  They're still plenty of them around and lots of us serious FE fans, including this one who keeps his two Guzzis parked next to his original 428 red-on-red 1967 Galaxie 500...

The GT40 Mk II big block 427 was a detuned NASCAR engine with dry sump and aluminum heads.  The idea was to run at lower RPMs to run 24hrs.  The Mk II couldn't handle more power due to limitations on brakes and it was already faster than the competition. 

[ScepticalScotty]

Going to see it as I've been Ford from birth. Hope Eric Broadley is mentioned.

[Rough Edge racing]

 Ford was involved in all motorsports at that time, trying to dominate some classes of drag racing and Nascar and then to road racing...Ferrari was a very small company with a racing budget at that time of less than $350,000..Ford was the second largest vehicle manufacturer in the US and probably the world...A story of how massive money can bring success...

[cliffrod]

Like I said, put a CX500 in Dr John's movie bike. No biggie.  The only people that would grumble will be the serious Guzzi fans.

[cliffrod]

The GT40 Mk II big block 427 was a detuned NASCAR engine with dry sump and aluminum heads.  The idea was to run at lower RPMs to run 24hrs.  The Mk II couldn't handle more power due to limitations on brakes and it was already faster than the competition.

Yup, these early SK alloy Medium Riser heads were known for porosity issues with the castings.  There were some around here via local NASCAR channels.  I always wanted a set for my old 428 Galaxie when I was a kid, but was advised against using a set on my car.  Now there's a variety of modern aluminum heads for the engines, including some contemporary Dove reissue castings of the old SK with better metallurgy.

Lots of racing stuff here in Spartanburg but the parts that used to be common (and cheap) aren't anymore. So I've built a repro Holman Moody-style cowl plenum air cleaner for my Galaxie.  That whole project was on the front burner until this V700 came home..

[Two Checks]

Na$car heads aren't well suited for the street as they are made to flow best at high rpm and a narrow rpm range. And the cams are the same. I  fact, last I was told you can't get your hands on a na$car cam. That tech is kept close to the vest.
I saw an article on the making of the movie. It showed the cars go I g round the track with all the camera equipment attached. They might have been going 30 mph.

[oldbike54]

Na$car heads aren't well suited for the street as they are made to flow best at high rpm and a narrow rpm range. And the cams are the same. I  fact, last I was told you can't get your hands on a na$car cam. That tech is kept close to the vest.
I saw an article on the making of the movie. It showed the cars going round the track with all the camera equipment attached. They might have been going 30 mph.

 Yep , a Hollywood movie . Does anyone think the *Indian* used in the movie about Burt Monro was actually the real bike he rode , or that the rider went almost 200 MPH ? Fact is , with the exception of The Texas Turnip , most folks are not anywhere near as colorful as portrayed in movies .

 Dusty

[Guzzistajohn]

en·ter·tain·ment
/ˌen(t)ərˈtānmənt/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.
"everyone just sits in front of the TV for entertainment"
Similar:
amusement
pleasure
leisure
relaxation
fun
enjoyment
interest
occupation
refreshment
restoration
distraction
diversion
divertissement
play
R and R
jollies
beer and skittles
rec
sport
disport
an event, performance, or activity designed to entertain others.
plural noun: entertainments
"a theatrical entertainment"
Similar:
show
performance
presentation
production
staging
spectacle
extravaganza
the action of receiving a guest or guests and providing them with food and drink.

[cliffrod]

Na$car heads aren't well suited for the street as they are made to flow best at high rpm and a narrow rpm range. And the cams are the same. I  fact, last I was told you can't get your hands on a na$car cam. That tech is kept close to the vest.
I saw an article on the making of the movie. It showed the cars go I g round the track with all the camera equipment attached. They might have been going 30 mph.

Most FE heads are configured to Low Riser, Medium Riser and High Riser intake port architecture.  The taller the port, the higher the flow & typical performance as rpm increases.  Drag racing and NASCAR engines were most often dedicate high rpm engines, which is High Riser territory.  Road course engines needed more mid range, so are more typically Medium Riser heads. medium riser heads were used on the factory-built 427 Ford street cars from 65-67.  63 1/2 & 64 427 street car engines were Low Risers.  this same architecture was employed for the 428CJ (with similar large valves) as well as plain jane street FEs in other displacements (used smaller valves) because they provide lower rpm benefit. 

High Risers were available in the early years for racing use but were unsuitable for the street, hence the development and release of the Medium Riser heads for the 1965 model year.  They are a performance improvement over the Low Riser heads without the extremes of High Risers.  Tunnel Port and SOHC top ends are different than LR, MR and HR for dedicated high performance use comparable to the HR heads. 

30-40 yrs ago, there weren't many options for aluminum heads for an FE.  Used Factory parts were the most affordable and Medium Riser heads with an appropriate factory intake are fine for street use. 

Many things may be kept under wraps about NASCAR secrets in the larger population, but it's different if you are in the right area and know the right people.   50 yrs on, many of the "secrets" aren't very secret anymore. 

Right now, NASCAR corporate is moving to standardize the engines used by everyone. Pay for & use their engines or don't race.  Sorta like what's under the hood isn't the point, no matter the badge on the hood.  It's just entertainment.

[Rough Edge racing]

Most FE heads are configured to Low Riser, Medium Riser and High Riser intake port architecture.  The taller the port, the higher the flow & typical performance as rpm increases.  Drag racing and NASCAR engines were most often dedicate high rpm engines, which is High Riser territory.  Road course engines needed more mid range, so are more typically Medium Riser heads. medium riser heads were used on the factory-built 427 Ford street cars from 65-67.  63 1/2 & 64 427 street car engines were Low Risers.  this same architecture was employed for the 428CJ (with similar large valves) as well as plain jane street FEs in other displacements (used smaller valves) because they provide lower rpm benefit. 

High Risers were available in the early years for racing use but were unsuitable for the street, hence the development and release of the Medium Riser heads for the 1965 model year.  They are a performance improvement over the Low Riser heads without the extremes of High Risers.  Tunnel Port and SOHC top ends are different than LR, MR and HR for dedicated high performance use comparable to the HR heads. 

30-40 yrs ago, there weren't many options for aluminum heads for an FE.  Used Factory parts were the most affordable and Medium Riser heads with an appropriate factory intake are fine for street use. 

Many things may be kept under wraps about NASCAR secrets in the larger population, but it's different if you are in the right area and know the right people.   50 yrs on, many of the "secrets" aren't very secret anymore. 

Right now, NASCAR corporate is moving to standardize the engines used by everyone. Pay for & use their engines or don't race.  Sorta like what's under the hood isn't the point, no matter the badge on the hood.  It's just entertainment.

   
  With Ford and Mopar pouring millions into Nascar back then it was also entertainment..GM was pretending not to spend money but it came out the back door but less of it.
 Away from the big bucks of Nascar super speedways and SS drag classes, Chevy was almost completley dominated all drag and circle track racing...Especially for the privateers.....

[LowRyter]

Going to see it as I've been Ford from birth. Hope Eric Broadley is mentioned.

You mean the English guy that delivers the cars?   No, not mentioned by name.

[LowRyter]

Ford was involved in all motorsports at that time, trying to dominate some classes of drag racing and Nascar and then to road racing...Ferrari was a very small company with a racing budget at that time of less than $350,000..Ford was the second largest vehicle manufacturer in the US and probably the world...A story of how massive money can bring success...

According to the movie, Lee Iacocca pitched that international racing would appeal to the younger crowd.  He told the "Deuce" that Ferrari was the most famous car builder in the world and not Ford.   Ford then tried to buy Ferrari which is a well known story and part of the movie.

[LowRyter]

Yup, these early SK alloy Medium Riser heads were known for porosity issues with the castings.  There were some around here via local NASCAR channels.  I always wanted a set for my old 428 Galaxie when I was a kid, but was advised against using a set on my car.  Now there's a variety of modern aluminum heads for the engines, including some contemporary Dove reissue castings of the old SK with better metallurgy.

Lots of racing stuff here in Spartanburg but the parts that used to be common (and cheap) aren't anymore. So I've built a repro Holman Moody-style cowl plenum air cleaner for my Galaxie.  That whole project was on the front burner until this V700 came home..

Not to get too far into it.  The GT40 Mk II aluminum heads were done solely to keep the weight down.  Weight and brakes were the achilles heel for the car.  Those heads had smaller valves than the NASCAR engine and lower compression.   It was meant to run at 6k rpms but could go to 7k.  Most of this was also mentioned in the movie.

[cliffrod]

Not to get too far into it.  The GT40 Mk II aluminum heads were done solely to keep the weight down.  Weight and brakes were the achilles heel for the car.  Those heads had smaller valves than the NASCAR engine and lower compression.   It was meant to run at 6k rpms but could go to 7k.  Most of this was also mentioned in the movie.

That's why I wanted a pair on my heavy Galaxie with a 428. 

[hauto]

Seen it today-a very good movie! In 67 the only thing I wanted was a dirt bike.The ins and outs of sports cars and sport car racing was totally foreign to me. This movie was  educational and entertaining as well for me. I will google some of the history and see how close the movie was to reality. I have to laugh,the villain isn't Enzo in the movie. What a suck up!

[guzzista]

FWIW, THE Hagerty  article sheds some light on the facts behind the LeMans story, but  some folks may  call them "alternate facts'

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2019/11/15/real-story-behind-ford-v-ferrari?utm_source=SFMC&utm_medium=email&utm_content=19_November_16_Weekend_News

[Roebling3]

Like at least 2 others here I had GT40 models. The indoor electric track and a 2 stroke powered outdoor RC version. Over time I've had one each of every other year Ford 3 window coupe, beginning in '34, ending when they only made 5 window versions. I copied Pan American road racers in full scale. 48 Merc, 53? Lincoln.
Some may recall Walter Hansgen, who drove for Roger Penske. Walt and I were good friends through the 50's until his death. Practice accident w/a GT40, racing in Europe.  R3~