EFI Light on - Intermittent

[SIR REAL ED]

Howdy,

Took the 2007 Nevada 750 out for about 30 miles the other day and noticed the EFI would come on for several miles then go dark for several miles.  Luckily, I encountered some Moto Guzzisti (also known as "experts" by people as ignorant as myself), so I asked "What does it mean when your EFI light comes on?"  One replied "It means you are riding a Moto Guzzi!"  Another replied "It means your battery is not dead!"

Perhaps not really a concern... to them at least.

The bike was running well, so I just kept riding.  No problems at all, except the light coming on.  I did some research here and will check into the usual culprits such as phase sensor wire too close to ignition coil, loose injectors (seems like every bolt I have touched on this bike was barely more than finger tight!), etc.  Where can I expect to find the phase sensor so I can trace the wire?

Further reading reveals that some MG's are sensitive and trip the EFI very easily.  Does anyone know if the 2007's fit in that category?  Does refreshing the ECU fix that?  Would the map that Beetle produces fix that?  Does Beetle's map make a big difference in how well the bike will run?  So far, it seems to run just fine.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[pete roper]

Yeah, 2007's can suffer from the phase sender wire issue. Phase sensor is in the wall of the timing chest, left hand side.

[beetle]

The twin throttle body 750's have pretty good factory maps. Unless you are running an aftermarket exhaust, I wouldn't bother. They respond well to a good throttle body balance.

Apart from the phase sensor, grounding issues can cause the light to come on. Anything the ECU uses in the EFI loop can be suspect, including engine and intake temperature sensors, et al. GuzziDiag is your friend.

[oldbike54]

 Better earplugs ?


 Wait , this might be an electrical tape situation , sorry 

 Dusty

[Kev m]

Does anyone else think they remember a tech bulletin/service bulletin on the smallblocks around that time specifically about this? Intermittent CE light, being a simple fix like the crank sensor or maybe something in the wiring harness?!?

[beetle]

TOPIC: V7 electrical system all models – Nevada 750 MY 2009

SUBJECT: faulty illumination of the amber coloured EFI warning light on the instrument panel

Dear Dealer,

In addition to the technical bulletin no. 12 of the year 2008 dated 21/11/2008, please be informed that from the Axone 7.0.4 release, available and downloadable starting from 15/09/2009 (or from the Navigator 6.0.0 release), it is possible to reprogramme the vehicle's control unit by selecting the REPROGRAMMING function and choosing V7NEVAD mapping.

This new map solves the faulty illumination problem of the amber coloured warning light on the instrument panel (number 5 in the figure).

We therefore ask you to perform this operation during the predelivery phase on all vehicles still in your stock and on all motorcycles that go through your workshop for routine maintenance.
A list of chassis numbers follows of the last vehicles, divided by model, still being produced with the old map: if a vehicle with a chassis number higher than those listed below happens to come into your workshop, this remapping is useless as the new map is already in the control unit.


V7 Cafè ZGULWC012AM111677
V7 CLASSIC ZGULW00069M113529
NEVADA 750 ZGULMG0079M111528

Best regards,
Piaggio S.p.A.
Brand Moto Guzzi
Technical Service

[Kev m]

Yeah that's what I was thinking of, well THAT and THIS (the earlier one it references):

TECHNICAL NOTE No. 012-2008 21-11-2008

MODEL: V7 Classic

SUBJECT: Illumination of the amber EFI warning light on the instrument panel.

Dear Dealer,

we have found some signs indicating that at pre-delivery stage there have been cases of irregular illumination of the (amber) warning light here specified and marked with the number 5 in the image below.

This irregular illumination of the warning light is caused by an electrical interference between the timing sensor cable and the vehicle coil cable, but this does not compromise adequate vehicle functioning in any manner.

By connecting Axone (or Navigator) to the relevant diagnostics socket, the “power latch”, “microprocessor” or “battery voltage” errors, which are caused by this interference, can be displayed.

In order to solve this problem, check that the timing sensor cable is properly positioned and if required, adjust it. The cable should be laid as shown in the picture below.

TIMING SENSOR SYSTEM POSITION


CLAMP THE TIMING SENSOR SYSTEM WITH THE GENERATOR SYSTEM, THE REGULATOR SYSTEM, THE HORN SYSTEM AND ITS LEFT CABLE TO THE CHASSIS CROSS-MEMBER (PICTURE 1).

WWW.SERVICEMOTOGUZZ I.COM

Page 2 of 2

CLAMP THE TIMING SENSOR CONNECTOR TO THE CHASSIS LEFT SIDE BY PLACING IT AS FAR AS POSSIBLE FROM THE COIL AND THE SPARK PLUG CABLES (PICTURE 2).

The cable has been properly positioned at the factory from chassis number

ZGULW00058111561

You are reminded that no electrical component of the vehicle (ECU, timing sensor, coil or battery) needs to be replaced to solve this problem; if the problem continues even after repositioning the cable, please, contact Moto Guzzi Help Desk.


Best regards
Moto Guzzi S.p.A.
Technical service

PICTURE 1

PICTURE 2

[guzzisteve]

V7NEVAD is the mapping you should have in ECU. As I remember it was to fix communication between dash & ECU.
The remap bulletin was before the one on the wire I think.
CAUTION-- If you have the wrong dash(early) and install the map it will brick your ECU. This map was for later dash.
I have the bulletin here just haven't looked, show's the 2 dashes.
Look at your dash and at an early Breva V75, dash lights are different.

[SIR REAL ED]

Better earplugs ?


 Wait , this might be an electrical tape situation , sorry 

 Dusty

 

Excellent advice as always Dusty.  Regarding the ear plugs, well, I did ask for their opinions...... Regarding electrical tape, I know that always works, but since the EFI is a nice red that matches the paint perfectly, not as big of a problem as if I had the amber light.......

[SIR REAL ED]

TOPIC: V7 electrical system all models – Nevada 750 MY 2009

SUBJECT: faulty illumination of the amber coloured EFI warning light on the instrument panel

Dear Dealer,

In addition to the technical bulletin no. 12 of the year 2008 dated 21/11/2008, please be informed that from the Axone 7.0.4 release, available and downloadable starting from 15/09/2009 (or from the Navigator 6.0.0 release), it is possible to reprogramme the vehicle's control unit by selecting the REPROGRAMMING function and choosing V7NEVAD mapping.

This new map solves the faulty illumination problem of the amber coloured warning light on the instrument panel (number 5 in the figure).

We therefore ask you to perform this operation during the predelivery phase on all vehicles still in your stock and on all motorcycles that go through your workshop for routine maintenance.
A list of chassis numbers follows of the last vehicles, divided by model, still being produced with the old map: if a vehicle with a chassis number higher than those listed below happens to come into your workshop, this remapping is useless as the new map is already in the control unit.


V7 Cafè ZGULWC012AM111677
V7 CLASSIC ZGULW00069M113529
NEVADA 750 ZGULMG0079M111528

Best regards,
Piaggio S.p.A.
Brand Moto Guzzi
Technical Service

Thanks Beetle.  The last few digits of my VIN are M114334 so I think I already have the good less sensitive map installed.  The bike runs great, no fueling issues at all.

[SIR REAL ED]

Thanks Pete and Kev m. 

I was under the tank, installing a good gas filter and proper fuel line as well as checking electrical connections, and I know I cut some zipties holding things in place, I may not have replaced them properly.  This is the highest probability in my mind right now.

[SIR REAL ED]

V7NEVAD is the mapping you should have in ECU. As I remember it was to fix communication between dash & ECU.
The remap bulletin was before the one on the wire I think.
CAUTION-- If you have the wrong dash(early) and install the map it will brick your ECU. This map was for later dash.
I have the bulletin here just haven't looked, show's the 2 dashes.
Look at your dash and at an early Breva V75, dash lights are different.

Thanks Steve.  I was told by the previous owner that the original owner had he dash replaced under warranty by the Moto Guzzi dealer.  My dash has a red EFI light.  I'll post a picture later.  And look for a picture of both dashboards.

Thanks to all for their help.  Great forum, great people, bikes....... well...... fun is better than great right?

[guzzisteve]

Check your VIN #       Here's what I got



I'll bet that download is not on the PADS software they use now. It was a few years before they switched from Axone.

[SIR REAL ED]

Very interesting.  My Nevada is a model year 2007, with a date of 7-2006 on the Vehicle ID plate.

I definitely have the newer looking dash.  Shown below.

[malik]

FWIW, I've had the intermittent engine management light syndrome on the V7C a couple of times.  The first at 98,000 - 107,000km seemed to fix itself - I can't see that anything I did actually addressed the problem, but I did take the bike to bits to replace the clutch at 120,000km. (Do note that all during this period there was the flat spot at around 4,000rpm - turned out to be the TPS).

Then the intermittent engine management light started again at around 168,000 - 170,000km. At that time a wire to the lambda sensor broke & set up a short (I had installed the Ago crossover back to front & the lambda wires rubbed on the gearbox). Guzzidiag had a stored lambda error. I took the opportunity to install Beetle's (free) map which turns the lambda off, and removed the sensor. No recurrence in the subsegent 40,000km.

See if you can't get hold of Guzzidiag & check for errors with that. Could point a finger in the right direction.

[SIR REAL ED]

FWIW, I've had the intermittent engine management light syndrome on the V7C a couple of times.  The first at 98,000 - 107,000km seemed to fix itself - I can't see that anything I did actually addressed the problem, but I did take the bike to bits to replace the clutch at 120,000km. (Do note that all during this period there was the flat spot at around 4,000rpm - turned out to be the TPS).

Then the intermittent engine management light started again at around 168,000 - 170,000km. At that time a wire to the lambda sensor broke & set up a short (I had installed the Ago crossover back to front & the lambda wires rubbed on the gearbox). Guzzidiag had a stored lambda error. I took the opportunity to install Beetle's (free) map which turns the lambda off, and removed the sensor. No recurrence in the subsegent 40,000km.

See if you can't get hold of Guzzidiag & check for errors with that. Could point a finger in the right direction.

Thanks Malik.  What year is your V7C?  I plan to get Guzzidiag at some point.  Seems like both a great tool and a fun toy.

I have hip replacement surgery scheduled for tomorrow.  Might be a bit before tinkering with bikes is a priority again.

[guzzisteve]

Hey, Thats the old dash!!  The New one has 2 buttons for toggling dash, yours has the bar w/switch for toggle

[SIR REAL ED]

Hey, Thats the old dash!!  The New one has 2 buttons for toggling dash, yours has the bar w/switch for toggle

That is good to know.  So, my bike has the dash that signifies the EFI light is not overly sensitive, and therefore, my bike should not be re-programmed...... if I am correctly reading the service bulletin you posted.  Right?

[guzzisteve]

You are correct-------------------there's nothing wrong with your bike. Sort of. I would connect to ECU and see if you can talk to it. Some have difficulties in this but run fine. 

[SIR REAL ED]

You are correct-------------------there's nothing wrong with your bike. Sort of. I would connect to ECU and see if you can talk to it. Some have difficulties in this but run fine.

thanks.  That describes this bike to a T.

[greer]

Wishing you the best with the hip.  Hope you'll be back here with a post-op report ASAP.

Sarah

[Kev m]

Thanks Pete and Kev m. 

I was under the tank, installing a good gas filter and proper fuel line as well as checking electrical connections, and I know I cut some tiptoes holding things in place, I may not have replaced them properly.  This is the highest probability in my mind right now.

I'd still check this sometime after recovery from the surgery.

[malik]

Thanks Malik.  What year is your V7C?  I plan to get Guzzidiag at some point.  Seems like both a great tool and a fun toy.

I have hip replacement surgery scheduled for tomorrow.  Might be a bit before tinkering with bikes is a priority again.

The V7C is from 2010.

I've found Guzzidiag useful in diagnostics.  Also in doing the throttle body balance - the rpm read is more reliable than the tacho dial.

Lots of hips being done all around me these days. Best of luck with that. Might slow you down for a little while. Do be particular with the rehab.

Mal.

[SIR REAL ED]

I'd still check this sometime after recovery from the surgery.

Oh yeah.  tinkering is too much fun to let something like this stare you in the face from time to time.

[SIR REAL ED]

The V7C is from 2010.

I've found Guzzidiag useful in diagnostics.  Also in doing the throttle body balance - the rpm read is more reliable than the tacho dial.

Lots of hips being done all around me these days. Best of luck with that. Might slow you down for a little while. Do be particular with the rehab.

Mal.

Guzzidag is on my list of tools/toys to acquire.

[SIR REAL ED]

Wishing you the best with the hip.  Hope you'll be back here with a post-op report ASAP.

Sarah

Thanks Sarah and others.  From the hip thread:

Got my right hip replaced today.  Piece of cake so far.

Arrived at 6:30, went in for prep at 6:45, went in to surgery at 7:30, at 9:05 the surgeon came out and told me wife everything went great, I woke up at 10:30, arrived back home at 11:30.  So far virtually no pain at all, but my right thigh feels like I did a bit too much physical labor.

Anyone who gets this done, spend the $140 for the polar cube!  Otherwise as a buddy says "That's why stupid is supposed to hurt!"

[SIR REAL ED]

finally got back out to the shed today and took the tank off the Nevada. 

If this is the dreaded phase sensor, then I am about 99% sure the EFI light was getting activated by the wire from this touching the small wires feeding the left ignition coil.  Yep sure nuff, looks like I wasn't paying much attention when I reconnected the left ignition coil.  Lots of room under the phase sensor (?) wire, so I unplugged the coil and routed the wires under the sensor wire.

I also zip tied the sensor wire so that it can't migrate to either coil.  Need to touch up a couple things while I got the tank off, so the final test will wait.

Seriously, this is the image....

[SIR REAL ED]

finally got back out to the shed today and took the tank off the Nevada. 

If this is the dreaded phase sensor, then I am about 99% sure the EFI light was getting activated by the wire from this touching the small wires feeding the left ignition coil.  Yep sure nuff, looks like I wasn't paying much attention when I reconnected the left ignition coil.  Lots of room under the phase sensor (?) wire, so I unplugged the coil and routed the wires under the sensor wire.

I also zip tied the sensor wire so that it can't migrate to either coil.  Need to touch up a couple things while I got the tank off, so the final test will wait.

Seriously, here is the missing image

[SIR REAL ED]

Took the Nevada out today for about 35 miles.  Ride a few miles with no EFI, then it comes on.  Ride a few more miles, pul over, turn it off.  Restart, no EFI light.  A few miles down the road it comes on again.  I repeat this cycle a few times thinking "Maybe the Guzzi ECU is somewhat like some GMC ECU's, in that you can fix a problem, but not reset the fault code/establish a new baseline, and with several start, stop, drive cycles, the ECU learns that the fault no longer exists."

So after doing the above, it seemed that the light was staying off longer, and coming on less frequently.

Does anyone know if the Guzzi ECU has that type of "GMC learning ability?"  It is an intermittent problem after all, could just be my preferred delusions displacing reality.

thanks in advance.

[guzzisteve]

Put a piece of tape over it on dash. Seriously, I changed out several ECU's back then on mostly V7C's that would not reset the errors.
The bike ran fine, get triangle. You see the error "Mute Knot" then it doesn't communicate to reset. You can read what it's doing in real time but doesn't talk to ECU to reset anything. I used Axone from dealership and TechnoResearch software. I'll bet I swapped out 10  15RC's that were like that.  The thing is the bike would run fine & you could tune it.