Why can't they get FI right?

[stevet]

Sorry, I'm about to rant.

I think I may have asked this question about 10 years ago, and at the time got an answer of, "The motorcycle undustry seems to be about 10 years behind the auto industry in regard to fuel injection technology, in particular the software."  At least that is what my aging brain is recalling.  Maybe it's all just a halucination...

Anyway, I keep an eye on the better FI threads such as the ones running now that could affect my V7II.  But again, 10 years later, and in all seriousness, why in the hell can't these manufacturers (namely Moto Guzzi and its subcontactors, because I willingly bought one, again) get this fuel injection programming right the first time?  It's 20-flippin'-16 for God's sake!  Why is it left up to passionate enthusiasts and gracious one-man mechanic shops to do the job of the paid engineers, to do the right thing and to do things right?

There is NO excuse.  Not anymore.  The big brands in cars sell product globally and tweak their systems for regional conditions, and these vehicles roll down the road just fine as soon as the ignition system is started.  The big 4 Japanese bike brands, same thing.  Start, and go.  Guzzi- start, sit around for a couple minutes while it coughs and gags and gasps, and groans, and then feather it for the first couple blocks until it gets its legs underneath... it's like a lifelong cigarette smoker getting out of bed in the morning.

For the love of all that is good and pure and right... Hey, Italy, get with the effing program already!!!  I had a 1979 Audi that was fuel injected, ran like a champ.  I've got a 2016 MG that is fuel injected that can't hold a candle to the system in the Audi.  Maybe its time for MG to get a new FI supplier!  This isn't ricket science.  Geezus.

Phew, I feel better, for the moment.

Steve.

[Cool Runnings]

Emission standards?

[sib]

They couldn't ever get carburetors right, either.  As far as I'm concerned, most manufacturers mostly get FI right.  The FI on my V7II was right from the beginning, and it's still right after 7800 mi.  You have to understand that motorcyclists, as a breed, like to tinker.  They'll find a way to "improve" anything that can be adjusted.  Then they'll express their frustration on forums like this one when things end up being "improved" for the worse.

[Caesars_ghost]

My 1976 Volkswagen FI runs great. I'm pretty sure it has to do with emissions compliance. On a car it's easier to bolt on 100lbs of smog gear. On a motorcycle, where every ounce counts? Not so much.

[Triple Jim]

I have read quite a few motorcycle reviews that complain about things like "snatchy response" and "flat spots" in the big four Japanese brands.  Also articles about aftermarket parts and reflashes for them that improve running.  I assume emissions requirements are at least partly responsible, particularly as they relate to highly tuned race engines trying to meet them.

[rocker59]

The carbs on my sport 1100 were a mess from the factory.

My V11 LeMans efi was great for 40k miles.

No complaints about the efi on my 2014 V7 Special.

[Noguzznoglory]

The engineers could make them run perfect if they didn't have to compromise drive ability for emissions standards

[Kev m]

I tend to believe they are trying to balance too many things:

* emissions
* performance
* efficiency
* reliability

It's ironic that I've always found Harley's EFI systems to run extremely well and trouble free. But I think their advantage is that really do purposely leaves some performance on the table making the trade-off between power and emissions easier to handle.

[ohiorider]

I've often thought it might be more difficult to make FI respond precisely on a 125hp/500 pound motorcycle, than on a 2500 pound econo-box cage with similar hp.  Any slight change from off throttle to on throttle will probably be amplified through the much lighter-weight motorcycle, with the much heavier car, less so.  Just a theory.  Having said that, my 1995 R1100RS was a handful when in very slow, stop and start traffic (well-documented surging problem.)  My 2v 1200 Sport fuel injection (stock map) is much better-mannered in similar circumstances.

[MAC]

In my experience it's a Guzzi issue.My FI 08' Wing runs great from day one(50k now).My FI 14' Indian runs great from day one(10k now).My 09' Norge has to be messed with to run OK.

[Sheepdog]

Some FI tuning truisms:
1) Liquid cooling allows engines to run leaner without harm.
2) 10/15% ethanol fuels run 4-6% leaner than pure gasoline (many foreign makes are not developed with ethanol fuels)
3) Required pollution control devices are bulky and heavy, and catalytic converters produce a great deal of heat.

Considering the above; getting an EPA-regulated, air-cooled, medium displacement, OHV, limited production, foreign motorcycle to run at all is an extraordinary accomplishment. It is as though bike manufacturers have said, "If you want to hold on to dated designs, you're going to have to figure out how to make it run on your own."

[DaSwami]

My 2013 Stone ran and 2016 V7 II Stone runs awesome.  Puts the Triumph FI on my Scrambler to shame.  The V7II is so smooth it's the closest thing to a carb I've driven.

Don't know what to tell ya.

[Triple Jim]

The V7II is so smooth it's the closest thing to a carb I've driven.

Isn't that like saying "My computer is so easy to use, it's the closest thing to an abacus I've found."?   

[Aaron D.]

The stock injection on our Scouts, our Jackal, and on the EV I used to own are all perfect. I wouldn't change a thing-and I haven't.

Snatchy throttles on FI bikes I think stem from the non-proportional opening of butterfly-type throttles vs. slides, and a lack of vehicle weight that dampens the snatchiness. Ride by wire can help, obviously. The Cali 1400 I rode was great-so air-cooled FI bikes can do very well.

 Whatever, I love FI.

[kevdog3019]

Isn't that like saying "My computer is so easy to use, it's the closest thing to an abacus I've found."?   

My carbureted Guzzi's are the closest thing to a really good fuel injection.   

I hear the op on this one.  I understand the dilemma with emissions, etc. but I still think it stinks even within the perimeters they work within.  I suppose it's like sound engineers in my biz where they do all the tweaking to the product often times at your expense.  They can turn buttons, but they often don't have a good sense for the overall.  They also think they know better.  Well... they don't, but they can run the buttons.  I think these engineers don't ride the bikes and just come up with maps to put numbers where they need to be.  I call it a start, but not real world results.  Ride the damn bikes and see what it's doing!!!!

[ITSec]

While some have pointed out that motorcycle fuel injection is a balancing act between performance, emissions, fuel economy and so on, there is another factor not mentioned - cost. More investment in both sophisticated components and testing would resolve EFI issues for many vehicles, especially Moto Guzzis. Smaller production runs mean any costs are shared by a smaller volume of units sold, which translates into increased consumer cost.

As for other manufacturers, the EFI on my V-Strom wasn't perfect either. The Wing (as an example) is an 1800cc 6-cylinder, and comes from a company that has built everything from small sedans to hybrids to F1 engines - I suspect there's just a deeper pool of talent and knowledge to draw on when building an engine that's a lot like others you've already built.

[Lcarlson]

FWIW, the EFI on my Cali is flawless -- starts reliably and quickly every time, no warmup needed.

[normzone]

 

"... I still think it stinks even within the perimeters they work within.  I suppose it's like sound engineers in my biz where they do all the tweaking to the product often times at your expense.  They can turn buttons, but they often don't have a good sense for the overall..."
[/quote]

https://www.vocabulary.com/articles/chooseyourwords/parameter-perimeter/

[lazlokovacs]

agree wih OP.

Try riding a cali vintage with the stock FI map. You can barely use 5th gear!

Griso benefits greatly from beetle's map...

I feel Guzzi should do better

just my 2c of a €.

[Arizona Wayne]

FWIW, the EFI on my Cali is flawless -- starts reliably and quickly every time, no warmup needed.

Both my `07(250) & 09(400) MP3 EFIs are flawless  Just turn the key like on a car and you're good to go.  Is it because they're singles?     My `04 750 Breva EFI is good too.

[kevdog3019]

"Rode 115K miles on a 1972 850 Eldorado between 1980 and 1990 - Sold it to spend my time riding horses. I'm now riding my second Guzzi - 1999 Bassa..."

http://www.thepunctuationguide.com/hyphen.html

Thank you normzone.

[Kev m]

Both my `07(250) & 09(400) MP3 EFIs are flawless  Just turn the key like on a car and you're good to go.  Is it because they're singles?     My `04 750 Breva EFI is good too.

Is the 09 open-loop?

Closed loop EFI motorcycles (at least air-cooled ones) are really walking an line and doing an emissions dance when they swap over to feedback operation.

I think actually that's part of the general problems we hear about with motorcycles vs cars.

[pete roper]

There are so many misconceptions that have been repeated so many times they have become accepted as truth about FI that it's pretty much impossible to enter into any sort of reasonable discussion about it.

Pete

[rodekyll]

There are so many misconceptions that have been repeated so many times they have become accepted as truth about FI that it's pretty much impossible to enter into any sort of reasonable discussion about it.

Pete

This.

Like most everything else, it's more productive noise to whine about what's not understood than it is to learn and understand it.   

[Arizona Wayne]

Is the 09 open-loop?

Closed loop EFI motorcycles (at least air-cooled ones) are really walking an line and doing an emissions dance when they swap over to feedback operation.

I think actually that's part of the general problems we hear about with motorcycles vs cars.

All these 3 rigs are closed loop, but unlike the Breva, the scooters don't have a manual high idle lever for when the motor is cold, and the scooters are also water cooled like a car.  My `04 Aprilia 460GT scooter is also EFI and it runs flawlessly too like the MP3s.

[Kev m]

All these 3 rigs are closed loop, but unlike the Breva, the scooters don't have a manual high idle lever for when the motor is cold, and the scooters are also water cooled like a car.  My `04 Aprilia 460GT scooter is also EFI and it runs flawlessly too like the MP3s.

Well, so much for that swag.

Or maybe we've still hit on part of the equation.

Water-cooled  = easier to regulate
Fast idle lever = one more circumstance where the ECM probably doesn't enter closed-loop (easier to regulate cold idle).

Just a swag....

[swordds]

I for one don't understand the complaints. My V7II Stone runs great, no problems, no issues. Starts right up hot or cold, idles smoothly, doesn't stall when stopped. Can I  be the only one who has a Guzzi that actually likes it?

[DaSwami]

Isn't that like saying "My computer is so easy to use, it's the closest thing to an abacus I've found."?   

You know what I mean, don't you?

Specifically, open-closed throttle transitions, both low speed and high speed.  Some fuel injected bikes are so "snatchy" or herky jerky, never had that with a finely tuned carb

[Kev m]

You know what I mean, don't you?

Specifically, open-closed throttle transitions, both low speed and high speed.  Some fuel injected bikes are so "snatchy" or herky jerky, never had that with a finely tuned carb

Carbs, being physical and acting on vacuum would have a natural buffer.

EFI, being electronic, can react in a microsecond, and the physical components may need to catch up. But the sudden response could potentially be "snatchy".

[pete roper]

Yup, that's the way to do it! Blame the incredibly accurate air/fuel metering system for poor maintenance! Brilliant!