Why can't they get FI right?

[Kev m]

Yup, that's the way to do it! Blame the incredibly accurate air/fuel metering system for poor maintenance! Brilliant!

Pete, not sure if you're talking to me, but I'm not complaining (nor have I ever) that the throttle response is so good that it might feel sudden.

I'm just giving an explanation why some people might find the more accurate system feels that way to them.

[sib]

I for one don't understand the complaints. My V7II Stone runs great, no problems, no issues. Starts right up hot or cold, idles smoothly, doesn't stall when stopped. Can I  be the only one who has a Guzzi that actually likes it?

No, you can't be the only one, I'm in total sync, but we're not going to get any traction on a complaint thread.

[Rough Edge racing]

 Do new bikes need to meet the emission standards as cars ?  Do any of you own a high performance new car with a standard transmission? Does it have slight glitches in throttle response or whatever? It's easier with an auto tranny to hide drivability slight problems.....And the nature of a bike with the operator inches from the engine and the light weight makes it more of an intimate experience and any flaws are more noticeable.

[Kev m]

Do new bikes need to meet the emission standards as cars ?  Do any of you own a high performance new car with a standard transmission? Does it have slight glitches in throttle response or whatever? It's easier with an auto tranny to hide drivability slight problems.....And the nature of a bike with the operator inches from the engine and the light weight makes it more of an intimate experience and any flaws are more noticeable.

No the standards aren't the same, but they are getting closer.

I don't have a high performance/lightweight modern car, with a manual, but have driven a few and have owned a number of DBW modern vehicles with manuals.

I think you'll find someone to complain about any vehicle, but I think most are splitting rch's.

My current Wrangler Unlimited is DBW with a 6-speed and owners complain about the hill holder (easily turned off), about the traction control (also can disable, but rarely need too), about supposed delayed throttle response etc.

I have no issues or complaints... Nor can I remember any on the last 4 DBW manuals we've owned.

[Chuck in Indiana]

I guess maybe what you call high performance might be different than I, but I had a supercharged MINI with a manual transmission, and driveability was fine.

[lucian]

What I was quick to assume  was a FI glitch with my 09 griso, turned out to be anything but. The "fueling" seemed terrible at low revs, the infamous flat spot at 3,000 and a unpredictable idle off warm up. In actuality it turned out to be a multitude of small set up issues unrelated really to the FI. Slack throttle cables, twin opened air bleed screws, a messed with sacred screw along with slight blow by on one intake valve. Oh and did I mention a tps of 7.8 and out of spec valve gaps. Don't be too quick to blame FI until you have ensured proper set up especially on the 8v. Once the set up issues were resolved the lean tuning of the factory map, to meet emission regs, and the fact it is a single lamda on a twin with dissimilar header pipes were easily corrected. A $15 cable, a laptop and a Beetle map with lamda off. It now runs  and behaves as it would be expected to , although it may not pass a DEP sniff test.

[Kev m]

What I was quick to assume  was a FI glitch with my 09 griso, turned out to be anything but. The "fueling" seemed terrible at low revs, the infamous flat spot at 3,000 and a unpredictable idle off warm up. In actuality it turned out to be a multitude of small set up issues unrelated really to the FI. Slack throttle cables, twin opened air bleed screws, a messed with sacred screw along with slight blow by on one intake valve. Oh and did I mention a tps of 7.8 and out of spec valve gaps. Don't be too quick to blame FI until you have ensured proper set up especially on the 8v. Once the set up issues were resolved the lean tuning of the factory map, to meet emission regs, and the fact it is a single lamda on a twin with dissimilar header pipes were easily corrected. A $15 cable, a laptop and a Beetle map with lamda off. It now runs  and behaves as it would be expected to , although it may not pass a DEP sniff test.

[Rough Edge racing]

No the standards aren't the same, but they are getting closer.

I don't have a high performance/lightweight modern car, with a manual, but have driven a few and have owned a number of DBW modern vehicles with manuals.

I think you'll find someone to complain about any vehicle, but I think most are splitting rch's.

My current Wrangler Unlimited is DBW with a 6-speed and owners complain about the hill holder (easily turned off), about the traction control (also can disable, but rarely need too), about supposed delayed throttle response etc.

I have no issues or complaints... Nor can I remember any on the last 4 DBW manuals we've owned.

 We have two older 5 speed  XJ Cherokees and one of them is getting a bit long in the tooth. My wife likes the two door Wranglers so we might be considering buying a new or one year old model. It would be a manual transmission.I hear the new V-6 is quite powerful for a Jeep...Any other issues with yours?

[pete roper]

Pete, not sure if you're talking to me, but I'm not complaining (nor have I ever) that the throttle response is so good that it might feel sudden.

I'm just giving an explanation why some people might find the more accurate system feels that way to them.

No, it was just a general observation Kev. People complain about the FI being shit but then openly admit that their bikes aren't set up even remotely correctly. I just find it hilarious.

Certainly there are plenty of issues with some aspects of how some of the bikes fuel up but it isn't that they are 'Mapped Lean'. The base maps are rich, it's the way the ECU trims the fuel down that makes for the super-lean condition that people notice and complain about on certain machines. Once the ECU goes open loop they are awash with fuel, and just as well. People insist on sticking on loud pipes and using shitty aftermarket filters, in a lot of cases if the fueling wasn't rich you'd blow a hole in a piston!

Pete

[sturgeon]

I currently own 3 bikes that others have described as having a 'snatchy' throttle. On two of them a simple throttle cable adjustment fixed the problem for me. I no longer notice it. Of the three, the V7S is the 'smoothest', and has not needed that adjustment in the 2 years I've owned it.

[atavar]

It's ironic that I've always found Harley's EFI systems to run extremely well and trouble free.

When most Harley's cannot maintain an idle at a stoplight without flapping the throttle I would not say that is extremely well or trouble free.  Have you heard a Harley idle lately?
Or is that a symptom of clueless owners trying to put bolt-on mods to the engine?

[Kev m]

When most Harley's cannot maintain an idle at a stoplight without flapping the throttle I would not say that is extremely well or trouble free.  Have you heard a Harley idle lately?
Or is that a symptom of clueless owners trying to put bolt-on mods to the engine?

Funny story time.

In about 1994/95 Harley contacted with Weber-Marelli to produce their first production EFI system (single throttle body, speed density, open loop system very similar to the early Guzzi EFI systems).

When they unveiled it for the Harley engineers there were protests that it idled too smoothly and didn't sound like a Harley.

The Weber-Marelli engineers were asked to replicate the sound of a carbureted Harley. So they studied it and said that the narrow V-twin, short timing between ignition for each cylinder, and the small common manifold caused random patterns of turbulence that disrupted air:fuel charges in reach of the cylinders at different times. They said to replicate it they'd need a random pattern of poor idle fueling that just made no sense and that Harley customers would have to get used to a stable idle.

Honestly when I picked up my 1996 EFI RK (first year production) back in 96 it took some getting used to.

But every EFI Harley I've owned or ridden idled just fine.

So yes, just idiot owners mimicking what they think they have heard owners of poor idling carbureted Harleys do (which was likely to clear the carb and manifold one or two times before taking off from idle to prevent it from back firing through the carb and dieing (which would happen randomly with the carb models, see what the Weber-Marelli engineers discovered).

[Murray]

To the op because most car manufacturers are not trying to get an archaic retro pile of puss through modern emission standards, It the 10-16 years sited emission regulations have change significantly Guzzis engines have not.

[Rough Edge racing]

Funny story time.

In about 1994/95 Harley contacted with Weber-Marelli to produce their first production EFI system (single throttle body, speed density, open loop system very similar to the early Guzzi EFI systems).

When they unveiled it for the Harley engineers there were protests that it idled too smoothly and didn't sound like a Harley.

The Weber-Marelli engineers were asked to replicate the sound of a carbureted Harley. So they studied it and said that the narrow V-twin, short timing between ignition for each cylinder, and the small common manifold caused random patterns of turbulence that disrupted air:fuel charges in reach of the cylinders at different times. They said to replicate it they'd need a random pattern of poor idle fueling that just made no sense and that Harley customers would have to get used to a stable idle.

Honestly when I picked up my 1996 EFI RK (first year production) back in 96 it took some getting used to.

But every EFI Harley I've owned or ridden idled just fine.

So yes, just idiot owners mimicking what they think they have heard owners of poor idling carbureted Harleys do (which was likely to clear the carb and manifold one or two times before taking off from idle to prevent it from back firing through the carb and dieing (which would happen randomly with the carb models, see what the Weber-Marelli engineers discovered).

 Yeah, I read that story somewhere too......I had several mildly built Shovelheads with carbs that had the lopey idle but never needed to rev them at stops lights to keep them running. It's called just turn up the idle slightly....I also built a pretty radical iron head Sportster with a 40 MM clamped on Dellorto carburetor. It idled rough but no need to constantly gas the throttle. But like Kev says, give it a slight test rev just before releasing the clutch...And on several occasions it backfired and blew the carb off the rubber spigot... Hard to look cool with the carb hanging by the cable and fuel line. The backfire was caused by the radial cam  overlap....No stock Harley suffers from this unless it's in a poor state of tune... Guys on sport bikes often do the same thing, throttle jokey while stopped like some kid on a 2 stroke dirt bike..

[Kev m]

Yeah, I read that story somewhere too......I had several mildly built Shovelheads with carbs that had the lopey idle but never needed to rev them at stops lights to keep them running. It's called just turn up the idle slightly....I also built a pretty radical iron head Sportster with a 40 MM clamped on Dellorto carburetor. It idled rough but no need to constantly gas the throttle. But like Kev says, give it a slight test rev just before releasing the clutch...And on several occasions it backfired and blew the carb off the rubber spigot... Hard to look cool with the carb hanging by the cable and fuel line. The backfire was caused by the radial cam  overlap....No stock Harley suffers from this unless it's in a poor state of tune... Guys on sport bikes often do the same thing, throttle jokey while stopped like some kid on a 2 stroke dirt bike..

Ha ha, yeah, but stock EVO (BT or Sportster) motors with the Keihin carb are prone to carb farts due to lean idle pilot screw adjustments and a main jet needle shape that has trouble with the transition from idle to midrange.

Sure, proper idle speed prevents stalling at idle (prevents the need to rev it), but a quick Rev before engaging the clutch was still a good idea to prevent stalling it should you get a carb fart as you let it out.

Way too many owners (and shops) blindly changed to larger idle and main jets, when most times all that was needed was a tweak of the pilot screw, and a shim under the needle or at most one step larger pilot jet and a new needle with thinner body around midrange.

[pete roper]

The vast majority of '70's and '80's Guzzis had too lean slides in them too meaning it was common for people to blip their throttle when pulling away from a standstill.

[Kev m]

The vast majority of '70's and '80's Guzzis had too lean slides in them too meaning it was common for people to blip their throttle when pulling away from a standstill.

Even though I've been on EFI bikes exclusively for about a decade, I think it became an ingrained habit long before that which I still do, one quick blip before pulling from a stop, or to alert someone I'm riding with that I'm going to shoot a gap.

[pete mcgee]

The engineers could make them run perfect if they didn't have to compromise drive ability for emissions standards

And that is it in a nutshell.
You have 60's design engine with 90's design or later fuel injection, selling on an international market with many different standards to meet.
So they go for the cheapest one setting fits nothing map but it pass's the test.
Doesn't mean it runs very well but it pass's.

[ITSec]

The vast majority of '70's and '80's Guzzis had too lean slides in them too meaning it was common for people to blip their throttle when pulling away from a standstill.

I blip the throttle just before the light changes - not because the engine needs it, but because it wakes up sleeping cagers and makes them look around and at the light - instead of at their passenger, their cell phone, their Happy Meal, or whatever...

[atavar]

I blip the throttle just before the light changes - not because the engine needs it, but because it wakes up sleeping cagers and makes them look around and at the light - instead of at their passenger, their cell phone, their Happy Meal, or whatever...

Oh, be honest..  you just like the attention..   
That South Park episode should be required watching for all loud pipe riders.