Start of a new project, "1200 Ambassador".

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Customer John S. dropped this stuff off today.










A few years back, I started building an "Ambovert" and this was the rolling chassis. When I abandoned that project, John bought it from me along with a bunch of other bits (5 spd. transmission, new crashbars, handlebars, fork tubes, etc.). His intent all along was to use the Norge engine, that he already had, in it. Now the project is here for me to build it to his specifications.

The engine will just fit, mounts will need to be made and welded to the frame. It's been done before, by a gent "Stephen" on the Loopframe Facebook group.








I plan to use a pair of Mikuni 40 mm flat-slides that John supplied. The ignition system is where the questions start. Stephen fitted a Sachse unit meant to be mounted to the front of a Ducati PM alternator.



I want to use the original Norge ignition (coils, pickup, ECU) if possible. John supplied me with a full wiring harness, coils, ECU(s), and just about everything else (including a dash!).




My question is, does anyone know if can I just remove all of the bits of the harness that I won't need (f.i., ABS, dash, etc.) and create a stand-alone ignition system utilizing just the pickup, coils and ECU? Looking at the wiring diagram, it sure looks like it could be very simple.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/wiring_diagram_norge_1200_gt_8v.pdf
The coils are #46 & #47, the pickup is #53.

[fotoguzzi]

Interesting, I thought the dash was integral to the system?
 

[80CX100]

Interesting, I though the dash was integral to the system?
 

     Very interesting build Charlie 

     From the reading I've done, I didn't think there was an easy work around solution for the dash issue.

     I hope kiwiroy sees this and jumps in, I'm sure I've read him describe how the canbus system on the CARC bikes  need a signal from all sorts of wires and sensors for the basic ignition and fuel injection to work.

     Will be an interesting build to follow, I'm sure lots of CARC owners with faulty/flakey dashes will be eager to see you come up with a simpler working solution.

    good luck with it

[Ariel]

Hi Charlie,

I installed a 1100 Stone engine on a 1982 G5.
I used 40mm Dellortos and a Sachse Ignition mounted on the Alternator.
It works great.
I made a new harness myself.
I think this is easier than modifying an original harness.
Are you going to use the Fuel Injection System, or Carbs?
Also, how difficult or easy is it to fit the old style gearbox in a CARC engine?

Ariel

[LesP]

If the stock ECU and fuel injection is going in the bin, the ignition should be easy (as long as the curve is correct)

A then stand alone ignition (once attached with machining) does not know what it is attached to, it just does its job when it see's a signal.

Fantastic project and look forward to future posts.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Should be a fun project.
I think the ignition will be fairly straight forward pickup item (51) except you won't have a Throttle Position Sensor. The ignition will fire ok but it will just fire at one spot.
Beetle would be the guy to ask if you needed a TPS or some other method of advancing the spark, I'm sure you could rig up a TPS somehow on the carb linkage, it doesn't need to be a precision device since you won't need it to control the injectors.
I have a Hall Effect sensor I could send you, that would be a nice way to replace the regular TPS
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
Of course you won't need the fuel pump with carbs, it would have too much pressure for the float needles.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Hi Charlie,

I installed a 1100 Stone engine on a 1982 G5.
I used 40mm Dellortos and a Sachse Ignition mounted on the Alternator.
It works great.
I made a new harness myself.
I think this is easier than modifying an original harness.
Are you going to use the Fuel Injection System, or Carbs?
Also, how difficult or easy is it to fit the old style gearbox in a CARC engine?

Ariel

It's a bit different with the Norge engine - no crank mounted alternator to attach the Sachse pickup directly to. Stephen attached it to the alternator belt cover, which doesn't seem to be optimal to me.

I'll have Greg Bender make a new main harness, but if I can use part of the Norge harness for just the ignition, I will.

I have both carbs and f.i. to choose from, but we've pretty much decided to use the Mikuni 40 mm flat-slides.

The 5 spd. simply slips right onto the Norge engine - no modifications.

If the stock ECU and fuel injection is going in the bin, the ignition should be easy (as long as the curve is correct)

A then stand alone ignition (once attached with machining) does not know what it is attached to, it just does its job when it see's a signal.

Fantastic project and look forward to future posts.

Sure I can do an aftermarket ignition, like Stephen did, but I thought it would be nice to utilize the Norge parts I already have, if at all possible. Possibly less work, less costly, a cleaner installation and no doubts about the correct curve.

Should be a fun project.
I think the ignition will be fairly straight forward pickup item (51) except you won't have a Throttle Position Sensor. The ignition will fire ok but it will just fire at one spot.
Beetle would be the guy to ask if you needed a TPS or some other method of advancing the spark, I'm sure you could rig up a TPS somehow on the carb linkage, it doesn't need to be a precision device since you won't need it to control the injectors.
I have a Hall Effect sensor I could send you, that would be a nice way to replace the regular TPS
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
Of course you won't need the fuel pump with carbs, it would have too much pressure for the float needles.

Even if I need to add the TPS, it wouldn't be too hard. How would the Hall Effect sensor replace the TPS and where would it go/how would it be wired in?

I don't have the Norge pump and since it was in the tank, wouldn't consider using it anyway. Gravity will work just fine.   

[Groover]

Another great project to watch! 

[Tom H]

I think your on the right track with using the ECU for the ignition. I'm not sure if the timing needs a TPS??? I think it's only needed for the injectors???

The dash, I have no idea. Does the dash have a lockout feature? Coded key?

Good luck,
Tom

[Kiwi_Roy]

 

Even if I need to add the TPS, it wouldn't be too hard. How would the Hall Effect sensor replace the TPS and where would it go/how would it be wired in?

I don't have the Norge pump and since it was in the tank, wouldn't consider using it anyway. Gravity will work just fine.

The Hall effect sensor is actually a TPS off a car, it would wire straight to the ECU in place of the throttle sensor (40)
Needs some form of linear to rotary motion.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Late Keihan flat slides have tps as std, should be easy to find used from 450 mx bike in suitable size
Or maybe adapt the fitting to fit your mikunis
No idea if they “talk” to your ecu but Roy or Beetle would know

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The Hall effect sensor is actually a TPS off a car, it would wire straight to the ECU in place of the throttle sensor (40)
Needs some form of linear to rotary motion.

Can you post a photo of what it looks like? The Norge TPS would need the same "linear to rotary motion".

Late Keihan flat slides have tps as std, should be easy to find used from 450 mx bike in suitable size
Or maybe adapt the fitting to fit your mikunis
No idea if they “talk” to your ecu but Roy or Beetle would know

If these Mikunis (TMX) had bellcrank tops, it would be easier to adapt the Norge TPS. Unfortunately, they don't, just simple flat tops. I'm sure I can still figure something out though.

Edit: Searched cable operated TPS and found that such a thing exists! Here's one example:



Probably wouldn't be too difficult to machine an adapter for the Norge TPS to make it cable operated. We plan to use a Tommaselli 2C throttle and the Mikunis came with cables and one-into-2 splitter. So I could run one cable direct from the 2C to the TPS and then the other to both carbs via the splitter. 

[Frenchfrog]

very interesting project..this could be a red herring but these guys make highly rated ignition systems and may be able to help...it is a long way to go though !  https://www.ignitech.cz/en/

[Kiwi_Roy]

Can you post a photo of what it looks like? The Norge TPS would need the same "linear to rotary motion".




If these Mikunis (TMX) had bellcrank tops, it would be easier to adapt the Norge TPS. Unfortunately, they don't, just simple flat tops. I'm sure I can still figure something out though.

Edit: Searched cable operated TPS and found that such a thing exists! Here's one example:



Probably wouldn't be too difficult to machine an adapter for the Norge TPS to make it cable operated. We plan to use a Tommaselli 2C throttle and the Mikunis came with cables and one-into-2 splitter. So I could run one cable direct from the 2C to the TPS and then the other to both carbs via the splitter.

I will do, I dont believe the TPS is so critical if you aren't using it for the fuel injection

[lucky phil]

I think your on the right track with using the ECU for the ignition. I'm not sure if the timing needs a TPS??? I think it's only needed for the injectors???

The dash, I have no idea. Does the dash have a lockout feature? Coded key?

Good luck,
Tom

Nope, ignition as well. Ignition and fuel maps both use the TPS as a reference. Ditching the EFI is such a backward step. It's the luddite option.

Ciao   

[tris]

Interesting, I thought the dash was integral to the system?
 

I thought you would need the dash too.

However a few years ago when I thought that the dash on my B11 was about to die I looked at the Megasquirt / Microsquirt aftermarket ECU.

It struck me that every sensor that the engine needed was already fitted. I just need to be able to talk to it and the Microsquirt had the ability to do that

See here https://www.diyautotune.com/shop/megasquirt-assembled/microsquirt/

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Nope, ignition as well. Ignition and fuel maps both use the TPS as a reference. Ditching the EFI is such a backward step. It's the luddite option.

Ciao

Guilty as charged. This project is going to be daunting enough without throwing EFI into the mix.

[TN Mark]

Is there a feasible way to mount or install and use the dash panel from the Norge onto the Ambassador? Even if it's tucked away for aesthetic reasoning. You'd then be able to use EFI instead of carbs. 

[blackcat]

Other than the challenge and the fact that he has the engine, what is plus for using a 2 valve Norge engine? 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Is there a feasible way to mount or install and use the dash panel from the Norge onto the Ambassador? Even if it's tucked away for aesthetic reasoning. You'd then be able to use EFI instead of carbs.

No way in Hades that I'd incorporate that fragile, troublesome POS into the system.  There are ways of using EFI without it anyway.

But, as I wrote above, this project will be big enough (not only do I have to install the Norge engine and make it work, but I also have to restore the entire Ambo chassis) without adding the complication of EFI. There is a budget that I need to work within as well and the hours it takes for me to figure out all of the EFI installation would definitely cause me to go way over that.

I can hear it now though "err, it's not really that difficult to install", "it'll run so much better", etc. Fine. Then you build a Loopframe with Norge engine and show me how it's done! 

Other than the challenge and the fact that he has the engine, what is plus for using a 2 valve Norge engine? 

"There's no replacement for displacement". In a word: "power".

 

[lucian]

I can't see a problem with eliminating the dash . As long as you can get around the ignition immobilizer function . Other than that its only function is the ability to store a few sensor faults. I am not certain, but  it seems  to me that the advance curve in the ecu would only require input from the rpm sensor not tps.  At least I hope that is the case. Good luck with it , you certainly have a project.  Looking forward to following.

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

When you get it figured out, I will bring you my ambo parts bike and a breva 1100 engine-- hopefully I can find a cheap convert for the disc/fork conversion by then

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

When you get it figured out, I will bring you my ambo parts bike and a breva 1100 engine-- hopefully I can find a cheap convert for the disc/fork conversion by then

Might want to find a 5 spd. and Tonti rear drive too. 

[TN Mark]

No way in Hades that I'd incorporate that fragile, troublesome POS into the system.  There are ways of using EFI without it anyway.

But, as I wrote above, this project will be big enough (not only do I have to install the Norge engine and make it work, but I also have to restore the entire Ambo chassis) without adding the complication of EFI. There is a budget that I need to work within as well and the hours it takes for me to figure out all of the EFI installation would definitely cause me to go way over that.

I can hear it now though "err, it's not really that difficult to install", "it'll run so much better", etc. Fine. Then you build a Loopframe with Norge engine and show me how it's done! 

"There's no replacement for displacement". In a word: "power".

I certainly admire your ability to get these things figured out and working as they should. This will be a very educational thread to follow. Thank you for allowing us to tag along.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I'll be starting a build thread in the "Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only" section once I get started. Right now I'm still in the "thinking it through" and "collecting what's missing" stage. 

[lucky phil]

I can't see a problem with eliminating the dash . As long as you can get around the ignition immobilizer function . Other than that its only function is the ability to store a few sensor faults. I am not certain, but  it seems  to me that the advance curve in the ecu would only require input from the rpm sensor not tps.  At least I hope that is the case. Good luck with it , you certainly have a project.  Looking forward to following.

Nope, requires both. Ignition map is rpm V throttle position. Baro pressure engine temp and OAT also trim the ignition values. A small Part of the reason EFI is better.

Ciao

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Next question: EV (8 spring) flywheel and clutch or Norge (10 spring)? I don't have either, both are on ebay for reasonable $$. Just worried that the Norge unit may be too hard to pull with a cable and Convert handlebar lever assembly. We don't want to go hydraulic. Opinions?

[Kiwi_Roy]

TPS



Unlike the usual TPS it doesn't have a mechanical stop, it will just rotate forever it just has a range of 90 degrees it responds to so you will need to figure out the coupling. it has 1/4" shaft with a flat.
The Norge TPS doesn't have a 160 millivolt zero set point like a 2000 era bike

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

 

[lucian]

Next question: EV (8 spring) flywheel and clutch or Norge (10 spring)? I don't have either, both are on ebay for reasonable $$. Just worried that the Norge unit may be too hard to pull with a cable and Convert handlebar lever assembly. We don't want to go hydraulic. Opinions?

Do they have a lighter spring option for the 10 spring clutch as they do for the eight?  j I just put the surflex springs in the 8 spring lmIII and was pleasantly surprised by the lighter pull.  Maybe you could go hyd and go cable to a hidden MC . Have your cake and eat it too.