Author Topic: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box  (Read 2809 times)

Online Huzo

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2022, 06:24:55 PM »
  I think there's been some dark interpretation of my earlier remark . Like other's , I read these posts with the
hope of finding information that may be of use to me . "At the end of the day you could use the cheapest oil
or even used chip fat and the gear box would still work " . Easy enough to understand and enjoy the levity of
the remark . "And with some they would just adapt to any inadequacy as human nature can do " . This is what
brought about the remark of his just playing around with us . For the life of me I don't understand what that
means in relation to the beginning of the sentence !
  Hope this clears up my response to his post , Peter
I understand that... :bow: :thumb:

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2022, 08:16:19 PM »
GL5 also does not play nicely with yellow metals, which is commonly used to make syncros, not an issue with Guzzis.

If you are finding some sludge or similar after using Redline, it's not the oil. It's probably some containment or water/condensation. Redline is quality stuff and it's capability far exceeds what a Guzzi 5 speed will throw at it.

Not all GL5 is created equal - some (like the Royal Purple I referenced) say right on the bottle "safe for yellow metals". All the gears in a Guzzi 4 spd. run on yellow metal bushings, so it is something to keep in mind if you own a vintage V700 or Ambassador.

Please note that I wrote "thick layer of goo", not sludge. It was thick pink stuff. I'm not the first to find separation happening with Redline.
Charlie

Offline krglorioso

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2022, 10:52:38 PM »
I had some Redline Shockproof Heavy Duty gear oil in my shop and in light of the concerns often expressed about it I called Redline's 800# and spoke to an engineer.  He assured me this oil in either light or heavy configuration is not harmful to brass, copper or bronze "yellow metals".
Ralph
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2022, 12:57:58 AM »
Wasn't there some issue with synthetic oils and incompatibility with composite bearing cages in 5 speed gearboxes?

Ciao
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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2022, 12:57:58 AM »

Offline Mr Revhead

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2022, 12:59:24 AM »
Wasn't there some issue with synthetic oils and incompatibility with composite bearing cages in 5 speed gearboxes?

Ciao

Yes there are myths about that, that's all they are, myths.

That's not to say those bearings don't fail, it just has nothing to do with synthetic oil.

Offline Cdn850T5NT

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2022, 02:40:33 AM »
Wasn't there some issue with synthetic oils and incompatibility with composite bearing cages in 5 speed gearboxes?

Ciao
A matter of the molly addition to-, or molly-containing lubricant causing the "plastic" cages to perish. Apparently not a myth.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2022, 02:41:22 AM by Cdn850T5NT »
1985 Eurospec 850 T5 NT (Nuovo Tipo - New Type... i.e. Series III)

Offline huub

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2022, 02:42:10 AM »
for early twins guzzi advised a molicote additive in the drive box, i have been using that in the gearbox too.
probably not necessary, but that is what i have been running for a couple of decades in all my guzzi gearboxes. 
It helps to quieten down noisy smallblock gearboxes too

Online Old Jock

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2022, 06:00:58 AM »

GL5 also does not play nicely with yellow metals, which is commonly used to make syncros, not an issue with Guzzis.

Yes you can have a oil that meets GL4 and GL5 specs.

If you are finding some sludge or similar after using Redline, it's not the oil.

Penrite.... avoid. 99% of the stuff they put on the container is marketing BS and they hold virtually no approvals. They also dell many different products that are exactly the same, just in a different bottle to try and convince people they have the perfect thing for every application under the sun.

The Penrite & Royal Purple products state they are both safe with yellow metals.

That's the first time I've seen such a negative review of Penrite.

I checked their website and they produce the gear oil in both GL-5 and GL-4, they are different products. Admittedly the GL-5 doesn't carry any manufacturer approvals, the GL-4 has a few if that's what you are referring to.

Perhaps I've got it all wrong but I thought a GL was an approval in itself, the oil had to pass certain tests to be able to brand itself in a specific GL class

With Redline the opposite is true, no approvals and technical data is little to none.

I'm not a Penrite fan boy nor a Redline hater, simply Redline publish no hard facts on the "Milkshake" nearly every other trans oil producer publishes a spec sheet and meets a GL rating for a particular product.

If I'd found the Royal Purple supplier earlier I'd have used it, both the Royal Purple and BelRay products appear to be the most popular with positive reports

As to the separation of the Redline Shockproof range, I've seen it start to separate in the bottle, but admittedly not to any great extent. From the few people that have stripped transmissions where it was used it's common to read reports of red deposits in the bottom of the box

Wasn't there some issue with synthetic oils and incompatibility with composite bearing cages in 5 speed gearboxes?

Ciao

As Mr Revhead has stated this down to the support bearings on the Clutchshaft and Layshaft.

These changed from a 14 ball all metal to a 9 ball Nylon caged bearing with no change of part number.

I can't comment on the failure mechanisms of the Nylon cages, seen a few claims and counter claims but nothing that would definitively support a conclusion either way.

I changed out all the Nylon caged bearings in the 3 bikes I own.

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2022, 10:37:17 AM »
SKF tells you not to use POLY caged bearings with synthetic lube in high temperature applications. If I recall, they did not get too specific on what a 'high temperature' is.

I have seen a lot of those dang plastic caged bearings fail in the older Guzzi 5 speeds. I can't say for sure there is or is not a connection. But if you have the transmission out, replace them.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2022, 03:32:37 PM »
SKF tells you not to use POLY caged bearings with synthetic lube in high temperature applications. If I recall, they did not get too specific on what a 'high temperature' is.

I have seen a lot of those dang plastic caged bearings fail in the older Guzzi 5 speeds. I can't say for sure there is or is not a connection. But if you have the transmission out, replace them.

Yes, this is what I recall reading when I looked into it some years ago. The operational temperature has a role but it all did seem a bit grey. There was a well regarded Guzzi transmission guy in the US about 6-10 years ago but I can't remember his or his businesses name and I couldn't find his website that had a lot of good info. I think he sold out or shut down.

Ciao   
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Online Old Jock

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2022, 03:34:00 AM »
Yes, this is what I recall reading when I looked into it some years ago. The operational temperature has a role but it all did seem a bit grey. There was a well regarded Guzzi transmission guy in the US about 6-10 years ago but I can't remember his or his businesses name and I couldn't find his website that had a lot of good info. I think he sold out or shut down.

Ciao

Charlie Cole? He was the 5 speed Guzzi Gbx "Go To" guy, I can't recall either the sources I came across but there was more than one, Pete Roper also railed against the synthetic caged bearings and at one time supplied the 14 ball all metal type.

The all metal replacements are still available but can be hard to source

Looking at the 2 different types it's very clear that the change instigated by Guzzi came from the accountants and not the engineers

John

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2022, 03:51:26 AM »
Charlie Cole? He was the 5 speed Guzzi Gbx "Go To" guy, I can't recall either the sources I came across but there was more than one, Pete Roper also railed against the synthetic caged bearings and at one time supplied the 14 ball all metal type.

The all metal replacements are still available but can be hard to source

Looking at the 2 different types it's very clear that the change instigated by Guzzi came from the accountants and not the engineers

John
Thanks John, yes that was it. Zydecoracing had a piece on it. I also did some research at the time I heard about it in the bearing manufacturers literature as well. Must have been 10 or 12 years ago and it confirmed the oil and temp concerns with plastic composite cages.

https://www.zydecoracing.com/safety.html

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 05:16:58 PM by lucky phil »
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Offline Cdn850T5NT

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2022, 03:38:28 PM »
Thank-you for posting that...
1985 Eurospec 850 T5 NT (Nuovo Tipo - New Type... i.e. Series III)

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Transmission Oil for the older 5 speeders and bevel box
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2022, 01:52:02 AM »
A matter of the molly addition to-, or molly-containing lubricant causing the "plastic" cages to perish. Apparently not a myth.
Yes there are myths about that, that's all they are, myths.

That's not to say those bearings don't fail, it just has nothing to do with synthetic oil.

Perhaps people mixed their drinks?
No need for additives post 1985 ish, owners book best ref
If you must, use oil of time with magic, modern for this black duck

 

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