Bezzi / Barr Photoshop Phantasy Pthreadfest

[guzziboy66]

Still way better:

 

Sigh...  If only an MGS-01 or 02 or 01a or 1100 MGS or 1200 MGS...  and for you smallblock lovers a V75 MGS  Damn but it is frustrating to think that the basics are all there, they just need to glue-em together and polish em up.  Aaaarrrghhh!   :BEER:


Eric

[Mile High Guzzi]

If you look at the naked version, it is easy to see they are using the griso asymmetrical header pipe / routing to left side, yet the undertail exit suggests a ducati style dual exhaust exit....or maybe its like (I think) one of the honda cbr models with a single underseat exit.  Overall, nice but derivative.

[guzzimike]

I kinda like the Millepercento 1200 -  ;-T


http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/millepercento-alba-arrives-eicma/

[st2lemans]

Knock off 100kg and add 100hp??? Why not just buy a MotoGP bike then - I cant think of too many bikes that weigh 100-120kgs and make 200+hp.....

Modern Guzzis weigh in a 250+kg with fuel, and have 80-100 RWHP, modern superbikes are 50-100 kg lighter, and 50-100 more HP than that.

Personally, 180kg (with fuel) and 130HP would be fine (and realistic).

Tom

[Damnyankee]

I know what you are saying Robot, but I think for the flagship bike slightly generic is OK by me. All the "way out" designs in the last 10 years look mostly quite dates now; wheras the "generic" look of the 1998 R1 for example still looks really good. Triumph got it spot on with thier 675 Daytona - people who know sportsbikes can easily recognise it, but its "in the ballpark" of the basic style so doesn't scare the horses.

Agreed... ;-T

The 675 Daytona would be my choice du jour if I was shopping a new Sport Bike Right Now..

I like its engine size and layout, and the tank feels "slimmer" from a Rider's perspective than those super bulbous monstrosities that pass for Fuel Tanks on most Sport Bikes nowadays..

Either one of these two would do... 8)



-

It'd be interesting having two Daytona's in the garage ;-T Very nicely done, I like it, best looking Guzzi in a long time 8)

[pete roper]

Knock off 100kg and add 100hp??? Why not just buy a MotoGP bike then - I cant think of too many bikes that weigh 100-120kgs and make 200+hp.....

Modern Guzzis weigh in a 250+kg with fuel, and have 80-100 RWHP, modern superbikes are 50-100 kg lighter, and 50-100 more HP than that.

Personally, 180kg (with fuel) and 130HP would be fine (and realistic).

Tom

And there in lies the rub.

Everybody seems to think that there is some sort of *magical* HP/Litre figure and any machine that doesn't have a motor that meets that is somehow falling down on the job. The thing is that for a 1200cc engine the current Guzzi donk is NEVER going to produce the *required* power. Nor is it going to ever be 'Light'. What it does have is a continuing charm of its own and ample performance for everyday road use.

On the subject of 'Looks'? Yes, I think that most modern bikes of the sporting type are as sexy as all get-out, if very 'samey', in the same way that all pommy parallel twins of the 1950's and 60's were 'samey'. Sure, you could dress up an 8V Guzzi like an R6 and then you really are trying to compete in the same market, and it will fail abysmally. You can though design a bike that *looks* like a sports bike using one of the current platforms, but its got to be *different* enough that it isn't chasing the same customers. Bodywork a-la MGS-01 on a Griso platform would sell, I know it would, but it ain't gunna happen.

Regardless of how frustrating this is the simple answer to the continually asked question of 'Whither a Guzzi Sportsbike?' is easy. Buy something else! I personally love the looks of the Aprilia RSV-4, especially in white. Why don't I have one? Becuase I don't have the skills to really use it and my licence takes enough of a beating on my Griso and Mana, never mind something with 1/4 less weight and half as much power again! I'm not into track-days, nor am I into wobbling 30 Km's to a cafe so I can sip a Latte and look smug while people gurn at my bikes. If Piaggio think that is the way ahead for guzzi? That's fine, it may even be profitable, but it won't include me in the customer base.

Pete

[leafman60]

1.  Horsepower/weight ratio

Why can't Guzzi get an amount of power out of the V twin similiar to what BMW gets out of the flat twin ?  BMW's "tuned" boxer is producing 20-30 HP more than the Guzzi.

Also, maybe the time has arrived to re-examine the the engine, trans and CARC casting designs in an effort to reduce the weight of the drive train.

Less weight and a tad more HP would help the Guzzi.  I do not, however, see any purpose in Guzzi trying to match the crotch rockets, head to head.  Shooting at BMW's twins seems to be logical, though.

I love and prefer the V twin engine over the flat twin but my BMW 1200S is so far ahead of any Guzzi insofar as performance, power and handling, there is no comparison.  Going from it back to a Guzzi seems like getting off a Corvette and getting on a John Deere.


2.  Design

Those "concept" pictures shown at the beginning of the thread look like somebody photoshopped a universal japanese fairing onto a Guzzi running gear.  Not very imaginative.

The MGS 01, though over a decade old, looks much better to me.   A little tweaking of those lines and streamlining the running gear seems to make sense to me.  

I cannot see that happening.  With new designers such as Terblanche on the payroll, they're gonna want to push something new, something that is their's.  I'd be prepared for something much more wonkish if Terblanche is true to his record.

[Dilliw]

And there in lies the rub.

Everybody seems to think that there is some sort of *magical* HP/Litre figure and any machine that doesn't have a motor that meets that is somehow falling down on the job. The thing is that for a 1200cc engine the current Guzzi donk is NEVER going to produce the *required* power. Nor is it going to ever be 'Light'. What it does have is a continuing charm of its own and ample performance for everyday road use.

On the subject of 'Looks'? Yes, I think that most modern bikes of the sporting type are as sexy as all get-out, if very 'samey', in the same way that all pommy parallel twins of the 1950's and 60's were 'samey'. Sure, you could dress up an 8V Guzzi like an R6 and then you really are trying to compete in the same market, and it will fail abysmally. You can though design a bike that *looks* like a sports bike using one of the current platforms, but its got to be *different* enough that it isn't chasing the same customers. Bodywork a-la MGS-01 on a Griso platform would sell, I know it would, but it ain't gunna happen.

Regardless of how frustrating this is the simple answer to the continually asked question of 'Whither a Guzzi Sportsbike?' is easy. Buy something else! I personally love the looks of the Aprilia RSV-4, especially in white. Why don't I have one? Becuase I don't have the skills to really use it and my licence takes enough of a beating on my Griso and Mana, never mind something with 1/4 less weight and half as much power again! I'm not into track-days, nor am I into wobbling 30 Km's to a cafe so I can sip a Latte and look smug while people gurn at my bikes. If Piaggio think that is the way ahead for guzzi? That's fine, it may even be profitable, but it won't include me in the customer base.

Pete

Bingo chicken choker.  A Guzzi is what it is; a very pleasing roadster.  If you want a road worthy race bike then buy the RSV-4.  The Guzzi platform gives you a better chance to get the power down at lower (legal) speeds, gives you the Carc for better long range capability, and gives you a better platform for gross weight.  To try to compete in the moden road racer category just doesn't make sense.

And with the under seat exhaust how can you mount your painers?  Are we really going to accept trailering a Guzzi to a rally?

[Pescara]

Aprilia has a history of designing bikes with high development cost that subsequently sell in low volume: the Caponord, Futura, the V-twin dirt bikes, and the Shiver.  The big block Breva was actually a success in that company even if it sold well for only a year or two. They've also done better when designing for BMW.  

I think the reason for that fairly abysmal track record is Aprilia's acceptance of existing market categories.  Instead of looking at what they've got in terms of drive trains and making a new and enjoyable motorcycle, they constrain themselves to making bikes that are much like the competition.  Growth does not happen that way - the Ducati Monster for instance didn't become a great success by competing directly with bikes in the existing market, and Aprilia's best success so far with Guzzi (the Griso) didn't either.

With that in mind, I think a nice Guzzi sportbike could be designed that people would buy and enjoy... But it probably wouldn't look like anything else.  I don't think Aprilia has it in them.  

[st2lemans]

 I'd be prepared for something much more wonkish if Terblanche is true to his record.

Personally, I'm quite fond of my Terblanche bikes (SS1000 and 999R).

Tom

[HDGoose]

I can ubnderstand the racers with the jacked up passenger seat. But I questions the styling on a Breva or Norge type bike. How many people drag their passengers feet in corners? How many people are that comfortable with their passengers at sporting lean angles?

[ScepticalScotty]

Some good discussion here. I agree with Leaf, that for a sporting/playbike Guzzi they should be aiming at the R1200S (though I would not its no longer in production..hmmm). I think it had a superb and unique look with the engine on display. Yes it had a sporting intent, and could be a runner in the fast group in a track day with the right rider. But it also incorparated little touches of practicality. You could get hard luggage for it. Heated grips, a taller screen etc etc. Plenty of folks from here bought them, rode them to the Alps and back and had a fine old time there.

I'm with Mr Roper on this weight/power thing. If you want to race go and race. I ride on the road. And another thing while I'm on a roll  ;D a few years ago a magazine over here placed a empty GS BMW on the scales and then did the same with a 996 Ducati - the result was the Ducati was less than 5kgs lighter than BMW!! Don't believe those spec sheets all the time - Guzzi and BMW are some of the few companies that put a relatively "truthfull" weight on them. 

[Pescara]

Here is the real prototype I mentioned above... several years old now, apparently not something they wanted to proceed with.   
 

[st2lemans]

Don't believe those spec sheets all the time - Guzzi and BMW are some of the few companies that put a relatively "truthfull" weight on them. 

5 or 6 years ago, I went to a Guzzi raduno near Modena.

They had a scale, and if you could guess the weight of your bike within 500g, you got a bottle of wine.

I was on my ST2, I had filled the tank just before arriving.  I guessed 225kg, but as I was only 300g too high, I got a bottle.

Numerous Guzzis tried and failed, most were surprised to find that they were all around 245kg!

How many people are that comfortable with their passengers at sporting lean angles?

I am, but it depends on the bike.

My daughter always complained when I'd scrape hard parts on the LeMans, never have had that problem with the Ducatis.

My SS is the best for two up, as it's 45 kg lighter than my ST2.  The LeMans is better now, I've ground away most of the bits that previously scraped, and weighs a couple kg less than the ST2, but has a horrible seat and my girlfriend can't take it for more than a few hours.

Tom

[Skeeve]

1.  Horsepower/weight ratio

Why can't Guzzi get an amount of power out of the V twin similiar to what BMW gets out of the flat twin ?  BMW's "tuned" boxer is producing 20-30 HP more than the Guzzi.

Because BMW has been pouring cubic dollars into the development of their bikes for the past couple decades now, funded by comparative chump change from their very successful automobile side of the ledger [a resource which neither Guzzi nor Piaggio has to fall back on]?

Also, maybe the time has arrived to re-examine the the engine, trans and CARC casting designs in an effort to reduce the weight of the drive train.

Long overdue, really. From Pete's Roperisms I've pretty much concluded that the CARC was designed mostly for looks, & actually weighs more (unsprung!) than the exposed shaft&swingarm that it replaced. No need for that, esp. when the casting could have been designed to take large GRP covers over much of it's perimeter to make it light & still weather tight...

Less weight and a tad more HP would help the Guzzi.  I do not, however, see any purpose in Guzzi trying to match the crotch rockets, head to head.  Shooting at BMW's twins seems to be logical, though.

Yup, yup, yup. Only way to get the less wt. would be to break down & abandon the steel frame tho'.[1] Even Harley hasn't seen fit to do that, despite the fact that their products would benefit HUMONGOUSLY from an improved power/wt ratio. But the proper design of aluminum frames can be tricksy: just ask Honda w/ the initial batch of GL1800s...  ::)

2.  Design

Those "concept" pictures shown at the beginning of the thread look like somebody photoshopped a universal japanese fairing onto a Guzzi running gear.  Not very imaginative.

The MGS 01, though over a decade old, looks much better to me.   A little tweaking of those lines and streamlining the running gear seems to make sense to me.  

I cannot see that happening.  With new designers such as Terblanche on the payroll, they're gonna want to push something new, something that is their's.  I'd be prepared for something much more wonkish if Terblanche is true to his record.

We are 100% in agreement, sir!  ;-T


[1] With the assumption that a total redesign of the motor is out of the question.

[Tom]

CARC, 6 speed trans and angular styling cues are fashion statements.  A pure sportbike from Moto Guzzi would alienate most of the customer base.  Improved versions like the California Vintage are their forte.  Look what Greg did with his Eldo.  Improve the California like they did for the '98 EV and they'd have another winner.

[st2lemans]

A pure sportbike from Moto Guzzi would alienate most of the customer base. 

Yet that's why I bought my LeMans (new) in '85.

And that's why I won't buy another Guzzi until they have something better (and to my tastes) to offer.

Tom

[guzzimike]

Here is the real prototype I mentioned above... several years old now, apparently not something they wanted to proceed with.   
 

Too bad on them. That looks very nice.. ;-T

-

[Murray]

Aprilia has a history of designing bikes with high development cost that subsequently sell in low volume: the Caponord, Futura, the V-twin dirt bikes, and the Shiver.    I don't think Aprilia has it in them.  

So the fact in Europe the RSV V twin outsold Ducati's Vtwin superbike 4 to 1 but didn't make much headway in the US makes it a failure? Few of my no good friends are into super motards. The Aprilia Vtwin is buy far the most popular I think people have to realise that just because it didn't work in the USA doesn't make it a failure. With the US dollar in the state it is and looking at a long slow recovery its is more likely that manufacturers are going to concentrate on their home markets. BMW has just introduced DOHC on their boxer motors if it revs harder it will make more power simple as that.

I'd like to see something with sporting pretensions out of Guzzi but the the design in the original post is a little too generic IMO. As Pete said if you are going to make it look like an R6 it better go like one otherwise its going to fail and you just can't get that out of the current motor/drive line. But you look at this board there is this thread whining that proposals are too generic, there is another one whining that things like the LM12 are too radical. The threads often contain impossible weight and power demands preferably out of points ignition and carburettors if I remember rightly the original Guzzi Daytona wasn't exactly a sales success total production was under 2000 across all variants and years. I think they only made around 4500 of the much more successful 1100 sport both bikes were around 15years ago when a fast sport bike made just over 120hp and weighed around 220kgs now they make 180ish hp and weigh under 200kgs. If Guzzi really want to make a sports bike they really need to put the aircooled Vtwin with shaft drive out to pasture with its customer base and start from scratch.

[cleatusj]

Do any of the sport style bikes use even a third of the rear fender clearance?

[flashman]

Cool  ::)  90 years of Guzzi history and Italian design and he's managed to style a bike like a Jap inline - 4.  Maybe the yellow one a bit like an SV650.  

A bike that looks like that will, right or wrong, be compared by prospective buyers to all the 600 and 1000cc Jap super sports, and it will fall down miserably.  Shaft drive, air cooled twin is a relic of a design compared to what's in modern sport bikes.  Don't dress it up like one then, or you're going to find yourself in a market you can't compete in... Especially without any form of race program to build some sporting legitimacy.  

    

[Murray]

Do any of the sport style bikes use even a third of the rear fender clearance?

With my fat rear on them unfortunately yes. I'll take full length travel suspension over the supposed aesthetic values of a wheel hugging fender any day.

[Pescara]

Aprilia has a history of designing bikes with high development cost that subsequently sell in low volume: the Caponord, Futura, the V-twin dirt bikes, and the Shiver.    I don't think Aprilia has it in them.  

So the fact in Europe the RSV V twin outsold Ducati's Vtwin superbike 4 to 1 but didn't make much headway in the US makes it a failure? Few of my no good friends are into super motards. The Aprilia Vtwin is buy far the most popular I think people have to realise that just because it didn't work in the USA doesn't make it a failure. With the US dollar in the state it is and looking at a long slow recovery its is more likely that manufacturers are going to concentrate on their home markets. BMW has just introduced DOHC on their boxer motors if it revs harder it will make more power simple as that.

I've done the majority of my motorcycling in Europe the past few years, and was talking about the world market.

The Rotax engined Aprlia is what I'd term a legacy product, designed 13+ years ago when Aprilia had no engine capability. The RSV Mille was their one significant success, and gave them the money to blow on all the subsequent failures. But any Mille engined Aprilia is long in tooth, has a non-Piaggio engine and is bring replaced by the 8V Piaggio twin. The RSV actually sold pretty well in the US eight-ten years ago, and was their most successful product in the US market.  But none of the Tuono etc follow-ons have been much of a factor anywhere for over five years.  Where the idea that they might sell at 4x the volume of 8V Ducatis in the here and now or within the last few years I haven't a clue.

I don't think Aprilia is selling much of any non-scooter model very successfully in 2010, worldwide. Given their failures with Guzzi to date, I'm now inclined to believe Guzzi will go away in the next few years, something I've never really envisaged before. I could be wrong, hope so.

BMW is doing very well in the world market, and particularly in the US.

[legendzzz]

Not really crazy about any one of them. Truth be told they could take their name off it and put Yamaha on it( change the engine too ?) But if they are going into the Super Bike way  Go for full body , Fiber Body?  THey should put some thing SPECIAL and DIFFERENT, these look like the same stuff coming from the other Italian companies or a Japan copy just a different engine? Make it special and they will come to buy it ? Heck your only selling  500 bikes a year here ? ??? ???

[rocker59]

I still don't know why Oberdan Bezzi is published...   :-\

Photoshop fantasy art...   :-\

Waste of bandwidth...

[Seagondollar]

I still don't know why Oberdan Bezzi is published...   :-\

Photoshop fantasy art...   :-\

Waste of bandwidth...

If it's a waste of bandwidth, why are we talking about it?

Sounds like a legitimate sounding board that cost the company NOTHING!

[Tobit]

Underseat mufflers have to go.   Get the weight under the tranny where it belongs.

Tobit

[rocker59]

I still don't know why Oberdan Bezzi is published...   :-\

Photoshop fantasy art...   :-\

Waste of bandwidth...

If it's a waste of bandwidth, why are we talking about it?

Sounds like a legitimate sounding board that cost the company NOTHING!

"The Company" ??

He's freelance.  Guzzi didn't pay him to paste a Guzzi mill into a Triumph 675 Daytona.

[Murray]

Here's a concept that I'd seriously look at.


Sorry I know nothing about it but if Guzzi wanted a sports bike that stood out from the crowd this would do it IMO.

[Dean Rose]

Here's a concept that I'd seriously look at.


Sorry I know nothing about it but if Guzzi wanted a sports bike that stood out from the crowd this would do it IMO.

You buy it, I wouldn't.


Dean