Author Topic: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after  (Read 2426 times)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« on: December 14, 2021, 11:58:51 PM »
Hi experts,

Cant believe I hooked up 2004 Breva 750 battery terminals to jumper cables wrong way today -- and now it starts but wont stay running!
Stupid me/too distracted, while trying to jump start the bike. It was running normal before this.

I was able to get it started using the jumper cable before few days before with no problems.
So I suspect the wrong terminals connection must have fried something somewhere.

The fuel light comes ON, even though there is enough fuel in tank.

I am thinking could the fuel pump blown away by the wrong battery terminal connections?

But then why would it even start? How do I check if fuel pump is working correctly?

I am suspecting fuel pump, because the engine starts, so it must be getting fuel, but it cannot sustain the fuel supply,
and the fuel light comes ON.

Where do I begin to sort this mess out?

I would appreciate any/all help on this.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline nc43bsa

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2021, 12:25:24 AM »
For the short time that it runs, does it respond to the throttle?
1990 MilleGT

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2021, 02:07:31 AM »
When you turn the key On does the pump prime for a couple of seconds?
Why were you attempting to jumper the bike in the first place, was there something wrong or just a flat battery?
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
We need to know if the revolution sensor (2) is working, you havent had that out have you?
The revolution sensor picks up a signal from the engine and the ECU turns On the Injection relay (12) which in turn powers up the injectors, coils and fuel pump.
The best thing you can do at this stage is monitor the relay with a small lamp, that will tell you an awful lot about what's going on. Wrap a small wire around the 87 pin of the relay and run it to a small lamp with the other side grounded.
When you turn the bike On you should see the light come on for a couple of seconds then go Off, it should come back On when the bike is cranking over to let you know the powers to all the vital parts.
If you could check that and get back to us.
BTW if you look at the relay (11) you will see it has a diode inside, thats called the safety diode, its there to prevent any damage if you accidentally put the battery in backwards. It won't let th relay close and put the wrong polarity onto the ECU.
--------------
You havent had the tank off by any chance, did you re-connect the pump properly?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 02:28:50 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Scout63

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2021, 06:45:46 AM »
Did you jump it from a car or a bike?  A big jolt from a car could have fried the EI. Maybe pull and ground the plugs and check for spark.
Ben Zehnder - Orleans, MA USA

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2021, 06:45:46 AM »

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2021, 07:01:27 AM »
For the short time that it runs, does it respond to the throttle?

yes, it does respond to throttle for the short time it runs. Then cant keep running as i keep turning the throttle.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2021, 07:05:51 AM »
When you turn the key On does the pump prime for a couple of seconds?
Why were you attempting to jumper the bike in the first place, was there something wrong or just a flat battery?
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
We need to know if the revolution sensor (2) is working, you havent had that out have you?
The revolution sensor picks up a signal from the engine and the ECU turns On the Injection relay (12) which in turn powers up the injectors, coils and fuel pump.
The best thing you can do at this stage is monitor the relay with a small lamp, that will tell you an awful lot about what's going on. Wrap a small wire around the 87 pin of the relay and run it to a small lamp with the other side grounded.
When you turn the bike On you should see the light come on for a couple of seconds then go Off, it should come back On when the bike is cranking over to let you know the powers to all the vital parts.
If you could check that and get back to us.
BTW if you look at the relay (11) you will see it has a diode inside, thats called the safety diode, its there to prevent any damage if you accidentally put the battery in backwards. It won't let th relay close and put the wrong polarity onto the ECU.
--------------
You havent had the tank off by any chance, did you re-connect the pump properly?

Yes, it was a flat battery. I ran it around the block before I parked it.

Q: How do I check if the pump primes for couple of seconds after turn ON the key?
SOmewhere I read that you need to listen to gas tank for whirring sound?
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2021, 07:14:07 AM »
Did you jump it from a car or a bike?  A big jolt from a car could have fried the EI. Maybe pull and ground the plugs and check for spark.

Jumped it from car. Cant believe I didnt pay attention to polarity. My bad day :(
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2021, 07:15:27 AM »
When you turn the key On does the pump prime for a couple of seconds?
Why were you attempting to jumper the bike in the first place, was there something wrong or just a flat battery?
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
We need to know if the revolution sensor (2) is working, you havent had that out have you?
The revolution sensor picks up a signal from the engine and the ECU turns On the Injection relay (12) which in turn powers up the injectors, coils and fuel pump.
The best thing you can do at this stage is monitor the relay with a small lamp, that will tell you an awful lot about what's going on. Wrap a small wire around the 87 pin of the relay and run it to a small lamp with the other side grounded.
When you turn the bike On you should see the light come on for a couple of seconds then go Off, it should come back On when the bike is cranking over to let you know the powers to all the vital parts.
If you could check that and get back to us.
BTW if you look at the relay (11) you will see it has a diode inside, thats called the safety diode, its there to prevent any damage if you accidentally put the battery in backwards. It won't let th relay close and put the wrong polarity onto the ECU.
--------------
You havent had the tank off by any chance, did you re-connect the pump properly?

I feel somewhat relieved that there is protection diode to prevent damage from accidental reverse polarity.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2021, 07:42:43 AM »
When you turn the key On does the pump prime for a couple of seconds?
Why were you attempting to jumper the bike in the first place, was there something wrong or just a flat battery?
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
We need to know if the revolution sensor (2) is working, you havent had that out have you?
The revolution sensor picks up a signal from the engine and the ECU turns On the Injection relay (12) which in turn powers up the injectors, coils and fuel pump.
The best thing you can do at this stage is monitor the relay with a small lamp, that will tell you an awful lot about what's going on. Wrap a small wire around the 87 pin of the relay and run it to a small lamp with the other side grounded.
When you turn the bike On you should see the light come on for a couple of seconds then go Off, it should come back On when the bike is cranking over to let you know the powers to all the vital parts.
If you could check that and get back to us.
BTW if you look at the relay (11) you will see it has a diode inside, thats called the safety diode, its there to prevent any damage if you accidentally put the battery in backwards. It won't let th relay close and put the wrong polarity onto the ECU.
--------------
You havent had the tank off by any chance, did you re-connect the pump properly?

No. I have not touched revolution sensor yet, if thats what you mean. Had no reason to.
I will be trying the lamp check like you said in post.
I have to mention that the bike was suspected of having a bad fuel filter before this incident.
Before this incident the bike would run normally only with full tank of gas. It would struggle to stay running when fuel ran out about 1.5 Gallons from the full fuel tank. I didnt get a chance to address that issue yet. I would just refill the gas tank when it would start sputtering/dying after using about 1.5-to-2 gallons of fuel.
I am also thinking of checking/replacing fuel filter this time, after i get it running normally.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2021, 07:50:30 AM »
When you turn the key On does the pump prime for a couple of seconds?
Why were you attempting to jumper the bike in the first place, was there something wrong or just a flat battery?
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_750_Breva.gif
We need to know if the revolution sensor (2) is working, you havent had that out have you?
The revolution sensor picks up a signal from the engine and the ECU turns On the Injection relay (12) which in turn powers up the injectors, coils and fuel pump.
The best thing you can do at this stage is monitor the relay with a small lamp, that will tell you an awful lot about what's going on. Wrap a small wire around the 87 pin of the relay and run it to a small lamp with the other side grounded.
When you turn the bike On you should see the light come on for a couple of seconds then go Off, it should come back On when the bike is cranking over to let you know the powers to all the vital parts.
If you could check that and get back to us.
BTW if you look at the relay (11) you will see it has a diode inside, thats called the safety diode, its there to prevent any damage if you accidentally put the battery in backwards. It won't let th relay close and put the wrong polarity onto the ECU.
--------------
You havent had the tank off by any chance, did you re-connect the pump properly?

Yes, I had the tank off to replace the plastic tee. will double check the fuel pump connector.

Q: How to locate this replay on bike ? I see there is row of replays under seat.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2021, 08:10:11 AM »
Please dont use the jumper cables, a car battery can put out 1,000 Amps or more, get a small charger or battery tender that doesn't have the potential of letting out magic smoke.
I don't know the Breva relay layout
If you take an Ohmmeter you should be able to get continuity from the pump socket 2 to the 87 contact in the relay base, You might even be able to plug your light into the pumps connector 1 - 2
I see Guzzisteve has chimed in, he has a lot more experience than I do, follow his suggestion.
Your fuel delivery sounds weird, perhaps you should fix that first.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 08:30:00 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2021, 08:15:59 AM »
To find out which relay is which I look on schematic and write down color of wires going to it. They are not always in same location on each bike. When bike is assembled they just hang them on, not always in same position.
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Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2021, 11:23:22 AM »
To find out which relay is which I look on schematic and write down color of wires going to it. They are not always in same location on each bike. When bike is assembled they just hang them on, not always in same position.

Ok, understood, thanks for the tips on schematic and tracing by color. Trying this next..

On unrelated note, I am under slight pressure to move the bike before end of month, as I am moving.
Hopefully i will be able to get enough repairs done, and continue to work on non-essential repairs at the new location, where I will have ample time to diagnose/repair/test etc.

As a worst-case, I am thinking of asking my friends help to load bike in his Honda Odessey van somehow and move it, if i cant get it running by then. Otherwise I may have to hire a tow truck/movers at big bucks :(
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline fotoguzzi

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2021, 11:37:32 AM »
A u haul trailer might cost less if you know someone with a hitch. Or make a post on Craig’s list asking for help. Maybe a nice biker with a trailer would help you out?
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Offline SSGG Geezer

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2021, 11:51:08 AM »
A u haul trailer might cost less if you know someone with a hitch. Or make a post on Craig’s list asking for help. Maybe a nice biker with a trailer would help you out?
This, A U haul M/C trailer is about 15.00 a day so just make sure the vehicle you rent or borrow to move has a hitch and electrical plug and use it if you have not figured out your issue.  Good luck.

Offline Kev m

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2021, 05:24:41 PM »
Guzzi is a relatively small community even worldwide, so much so strangers often are willing to help a fellow enthusiast.

It might not hurt to keep us know where you are and maybe someone can help.
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2021, 06:05:36 PM »
No. I have not touched revolution sensor yet, if thats what you mean. Had no reason to.
I will be trying the lamp check like you said in post.
I have to mention that the bike was suspected of having a bad fuel filter before this incident.
Before this incident the bike would run normally only with full tank of gas. It would struggle to stay running when fuel ran out about 1.5 Gallons from the full fuel tank. I didnt get a chance to address that issue yet. I would just refill the gas tank when it would start sputtering/dying after using about 1.5-to-2 gallons of fuel.
I am also thinking of checking/replacing fuel filter this time, after i get it running normally.


The sort of information that would have been salient to mention in the original post. Personally I'd address the fuel feed issue including the tank venting before looking for other problems that may or may not exist.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 06:38:43 PM by lucky phil »
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2021, 06:51:04 PM »
Just go in the bar on the corner and ask "Who owns that pick up outside" Might find someone needs a few bucks.
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Offline Scout63

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2021, 10:13:51 PM »
Motoguzzi750 - it may be helpful to step back, take a breath and revert to “fuel, air, spark”. I would pull each fuel hose from the tank, turn on the petcock and make sure that there is fuel flow.  You may want to drain the tank and pull and clean or replace the filters.  It would be a good time to flush the tank and get good fuel. Then check spark.  It’s like a puzzle waiting for you to play.
Ben Zehnder - Orleans, MA USA

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2021, 01:26:27 AM »
Guzzi is a relatively small community even worldwide, so much so strangers often are willing to help a fellow enthusiast.

It might not hurt to keep us know where you are and maybe someone can help.

Good point. I am in San Fran South Bay Area, CA.
will be happy to get any help. Thanks for asking.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2021, 01:31:34 AM »
To find out which relay is which I look on schematic and write down color of wires going to it. They are not always in same location on each bike. When bike is assembled they just hang them on, not always in same position.

Update: Today I was able to locate the red wire with brown strip on the relay ( going by color in schematic ).
I have stripped off about 1/4 inch from this wire near relay. Planning to attach a small wire  with bulb to it as per your suggestion tommorow morning. Lets see how this goes.

I was wondering why would the low fuel light come up when the gas tank is full?
Not sure if this points/hints/is useful info.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2021, 07:20:55 AM »
-----------------------
I was wondering why would the low fuel light come up when the gas tank is full?
Not sure if this points/hints/is useful info.
I was wondering that as well but I think will be revealed when you take the pump out, I assume its an in-tank pump.
I think the low fuel sensor may be a float activated reed switch on this bike as opposed to the thermistor used previously.
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76 Convert
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Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2021, 07:26:46 AM »
Update: Today I was able to locate the red wire with brown strip on the relay ( going by color in schematic ).
I have stripped off about 1/4 inch from this wire near relay. Planning to attach a small wire  with bulb to it as per your suggestion tommorow morning. Lets see how this goes.

I was wondering why would the low fuel light come up when the gas tank is full?
Not sure if this points/hints/is useful info.

Does the Breva 750 have an electric petcock. What you describe almost sounds like the wires swapped on an EV with an electric petcock and electric fuel sensor. If you swapped the wires, the low fuel light came on, and you sometimes had odd running issues since it was starved for fuel.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 07:27:38 AM by Wayne Orwig »
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Online bmc5733946

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2021, 07:54:53 AM »
Breva 750 is pump in tank model.

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Online antmanbee

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2021, 08:08:39 AM »
The Breva is a thermistor.

Here is a picture of the Breva 750 pump assembly and thermistor.






Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2021, 08:15:25 AM »
The sort of information that would have been salient to mention in the original post. Personally I'd address the fuel feed issue including the tank venting before looking for other problems that may or may not exist.

Ciao

Both venting hoses are Not connected and saw that one of venting pipe is corroded a bit. I will try to reconnect, clean venting pipe.
My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2021, 10:49:54 AM »
The Breva is a thermistor.

Here is a picture of the Breva 750 pump assembly and thermistor.





Thanks for clearing that up, it shows a thermistor type it should not turn on as long as its below the fuel level
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline malik

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2021, 01:46:32 PM »
Both venting hoses are Not connected and saw that one of venting pipe is corroded a bit. I will try to reconnect, clean venting pipe.
The nipple on the water overflow is known to corrode & block on the Breva. Then, instead of flowing out the bottom, the water goes into the tank with the fuel. Happened to a mate - we took the pump out, found parts on it were rusted. The pump was replaced with a secondhand one & the nipple cleaned of corrosion. Needless to say, he checks his overflows more often now.
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Offline MotoGuzzi750

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2021, 10:51:17 PM »
The sort of information that would have been salient to mention in the original post. Personally I'd address the fuel feed issue including the tank venting before looking for other problems that may or may not exist.

Ciao

Update/Good News:

I decided to follow your idea/fuel feeding issue, and it worked like charm !
When I pulled out fuel pump ( it was easier to pull out of tank than I expected/read horror stories of ),
found out that the pump motor had come off the fuel pump assembly, and was just hanging around by the wires.
Somehow the plastic claws that hold the fuel motor in place and deformed enough/bent outwards, so the claws were not holding fuel motor in place.

Since this was my first time to work on any fuel pump, I could not immidietly see that as a problem,  I didnt know the correct position of fuel motor in fuel pump assembly. It came to my mind suddenly, and decided to test if my thinking was correct or not.
I had to decide on how to keep fuel pump motor in correct/original place in the assembly.
I decided to go with wraping a metal wire arond the motor including the original plastic claws/clamps.

I had previously chrged battery fully indoors using the charger.

WIth fully charged battery and fuel pump motor in correct position, it bike started and stayed running like a champ !
No low fuel light this time.

Oh yeah, I also cut-off rubber grommets to get gas tank bolt aligned, which was a pain before.

I have not yet done riding test or run it until using up all gas in tank, but somehow I feel confident about that.

Thank you all for your valuable support and tips/tricks/guidance ! really appreciate that.

Take care.

My Bikes:

2004 Breva 750 IE
2006 Kawasaki ZX12R
2012(?) Grisso 1200 SE <- (thinking of selling)

Offline Matteo

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Re: Need help: Bike starts but dies shortly after
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2021, 11:21:18 PM »
Sounds like another ethanol related plastic deformation?
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