Author Topic: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?  (Read 4886 times)

Offline DesertPilot

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A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« on: January 15, 2022, 02:46:59 PM »
I have found that if I accidentally turn the hazard blinkers on while I'm riding, the engine loses power, refuses to rev above 2500 RPM without surging, and the ALARM! URGENT SERVICE light comes on.  This continues even after I turn the blinkers off.  But if I switch off the ignition and let things sit while I scratch my head wondering what  just happened, everything goes back to normal. 

This happened with both my V85TT's -- this one and the one that battled that SUV to a draw.  Nothing I can find in the owners manual or service manual gives any clue why it should happen, how it could happen, or even that it should happen at all.  Has anyone else noticed this?  Is it some unexplained anomaly, peculiar only to my bikes, or is it some Guzzi Thing, designed to prevent lusty young Italians from tooling around with their hazard blinkers on?

I am mystified -- so mystified that I'm going to break my rule about cross-posting and post this message to Guzzitech as well, in hope that one of you wiser minds might provide me with some clue..  I apologize in advance for the cross-post.

BTW - In answer to the obvious question, I didn't have a chance to check the OBD codes.  I have an adapter on order from Lonelec, and once it arrives, I may try to reproduce the problem.

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2022, 03:13:03 PM »
That's called character, Luigi throws those curves in there to keep you on your toes, no normal bike would do that LOL

Similar, if you have a V7III and turn the key on without starting it, then move it around the headlights turn on, I get it that the headlight should only turn on once the engine is running but it also needs to be On if the bike is moving without the motor running?

There's probably a reason for this weird behaviour but I doubt we will ever know.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 03:17:41 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2022, 03:20:54 PM »
They do that so when we break down and push it home, we can see where we are going.
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Offline Madtownguzzi

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2022, 04:32:26 PM »
I would check all the grounds.
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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2022, 04:32:26 PM »

Offline DesertPilot

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2022, 07:06:10 PM »
I would check all the grounds.
I'll give that a go.  Thanks for the advice!  I checked the connection to the cam position and O2 sensors and everything else I could see without pulling the tank and those were fine.  That leaves the throttle position sensor, and I've seen 'refuses to rev and/or surges when you try' be a symptom of trouble there on other machines, so I may have a look at that later.

Right now, everything's gone back to being fine... except that this time the check engine light didn't reset.  I imagine it will reset while I'm waiting for my OBD2 adapter to arrive -- yes, I know I should have one handy, but I never got around to ordering it  :grin: -- but if it stays lit, the code should be informative.  While I'm waiting, I'm also going to print out the circuit diagram and see if there's any plausible way the hazard blinker circuit could interfere with the engine electronics. 

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2022, 08:09:33 PM »
I would check all the grounds.
That is a possibility OR overloading the 12 Volt supply to the dash causing it to pull down the Voltage.
One way to check that would be to unplug a couple of the flashers so the load is normal (2 bulbs) and then try activating the 4 way flasher switch.
Do you notice any dimming of the dash lights while it's happening?
You had the same symptoms on a different V85.
We might have to wait for more V85 owners to check it out.
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Offline dave1068

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2022, 08:11:32 PM »
After my bike new V85TT died on the 2nd day, nothing about MG surprises me. Hang in there!!
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Offline DesertPilot

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2022, 09:25:24 PM »
If I'm reading the circuit diagram right, the positive output lead from the hazard blinker switch goes straight to the instrument panel where Some Magic Happens (tah dah!) to send blinks to the rear signals.  The instrument panel seems to perform a myriad of other functions, so I could just barely imagine a problem there affecting the engine electronics, but that 'just' is only 'barely'.  The positive lead coming into the right-hand switch assembly is more interesting, for it also seems to branch out to feed power to the clutch switch, 'derating temperature sensor' (whatever that is), head temperature sensor,  T-map sensor (MAP sensor?), motorized throttle valve, and demand sensor (I'm sure we've all had relationships like that).

While there doesn't seem any obvious way that closing the hazard blinker switch could affect anything upstream of it -- unless, as Madtownguzzi suggests, the 12 V supply is struggling to maintain 12 V, in which case I'd expect to see similar symptoms if I put other loads on the system by triggering the high means or honking the horn, or hmm, what if there was a partial short after the switch -- it might be significant that the MAP sensor is on that circuit, for I've had MAP sensor problems cause very similar symptoms on a Toyota SR5 pickup back in... well... you don't need to hear that story.  Another more frightening possibility would be that the ECU -- which lurks like an evil warlord in its lair to the left of the diagram, plotting who knows what mischief in its cryptic silicon mind -- might be out of whack, but this possibility is too horrible to contemplate so I shall ignore it.

That's as far as I'm likely to get looking over the circuit diagram.  The plan remains, 1) see if the check engine light resets, 2) see if I can reproduce the problem, 3) see if I can get an error code after the OBD2 adaptor cable that I really should have ordered a year ago but who ever gets around to stuff like that arrives, 4) make some brilliant decision, 5) enjoy a glass of wine.  Since Steps 1 and 2 involve riding and Step 5 involves wine, this might not be too terrible a burden.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 09:47:26 PM by DesertPilot »

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2022, 09:56:42 PM »
Can you replicate the issue with the bike just idling, not while riding it.

Start up in garage, let it warm up, flip on the blinkers…do you see any drop in idle or other unusual indications?

How current is your battery?
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Offline Huzo

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2022, 10:06:07 PM »
I just started mine on the lift and with the engine running at any revs, the hazards will flash when selected and turn off on command.
Seemingly no issues....(yet...) :rolleyes:

Offline Huzo

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2022, 10:08:33 PM »
They do that so when we break down and push it home, we can see where we are going.
I wouldn’t need the light.
I can find my way to the City Dump on a moonless night blindfolded..!

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2022, 05:10:02 AM »
I wonder if the function relies on the bars being well grounded, I was testing with a multimeter on my V7III one day using the bars as a ground reference. I was surprised I was getting intermittent results, it turned out the bars are rubber mounted and they were only grounded intermittently through the clutch cable.
Adding a short ground jumper across the rubber bushing fixed that, there were a couple of bolts underneath the left hand bar mounting that looked like they were intended for that.

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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2022, 08:09:33 AM »
My wild a$$ guess:

There is an issue with a bulb or wire. When the hazards are flashing, the dashboard believes a bulb is burned out. So, it tosses up the 'urgent service' message. Add to that, when the dash has any 'urgent service' message, it is limiting the motor revs.

That is my wild guess, and it of course means nothing.  :boozing:
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Offline DesertPilot

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2022, 09:32:44 AM »
My wild a$$ guess:

There is an issue with a bulb or wire. When the hazards are flashing, the dashboard believes a bulb is burned out. So, it tosses up the 'urgent service' message. Add to that, when the dash has any 'urgent service' message, it is limiting the motor revs...
I've been wondering about that.  It seems unlikely to be a bulb, because it doesn't throw a message when I use the same bulbs as turn signals or brake lights, but a bad wire in the hazard blinker circuit itself might explain the problem.  I've also wondered if the ECU limits revs when it throws an 'Urgent Service', as you said.  When this has happened, the engine also idled at 2000 RPM, as if some hypochondriac algorithm in the ECU decided, "Oh dear!  Trouble!  Better keep those revs at 2000 so we can limp home!  Or roll home, as the case may be."

This raises two questions:

1) Does anyone here know if showing the 'Urgent Service' message also causes the ECU to limit revs?

2) Does anyone here know if the 'Urgent Service' message also causes the ECU to trigger the flashers, in which case it might have been the bike that did this, rather than me hitting the button by accident.


Additional note: The hazard button appears to be a push button -- quite possibly a membrane switch under a plastic guard -- that sends a brief signal to the instrument panel when pressed, rather than an actual switch that stays on after you push it.  This seems to be an argument against the Current Leaking Through A Bad Wire From The Hazard Button Is Reducing Power To something Like The MAP Sensor hypothesis, since such a leak would only last a fraction of a second.

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2022, 10:47:18 AM »

2) Does anyone here know if the 'Urgent Service' message also causes the ECU to trigger the flashers, in which case it might have been the bike that did this, rather than me hitting the button by accident.


I think you are on to something here. As in, if say the throttle servo is acting up, they may turn on the hazards, and limit the throttle.
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Offline DesertPilot

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2022, 11:10:39 AM »
I think you are on to something here. As in, if say the throttle servo is acting up, they may turn on the hazards, and limit the throttle.
Thanks for the hypothesis!  It could well be consistent with the last incident, since I had just opened up some throttle to pass someone -- yes, the results were more exciting than I anticpcated -- and the 2-3 earlier incidents over the past 16 months might also all have happened when I fed in some throttle.

The only safe way to try to reproduce this is going to be to head back to the hills and fiddle.  But I need a break from problem-solving, and I don't have the OBD2 adaptor yet, so I'm going to nip off to spend today hang gliding instead.  Experiments tomorrow...

Offline DesertPilot

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2022, 06:00:09 PM »
Upon reading the Owners Manual carefully ("Read the Owners Manual?  We can do that?"), I discovered the following informative entry on Page 25:

URGENT SERVICE ALARM

A serious failure is signalled by a fast flashing (two flashes per second) of the general
warning light and by the words URGENT SERVICE on the digital display. Contact an
Authorised Moto Guzzi Dealer as soon as possible. In these cases, the ECU activates
a safety procedure limiting vehicle performance in order to allow the rider to go to an
Authorised Moto Guzzi Dealer at a reduced speed. Depending on the type of failure,
performance can be limited in three ways: a) by reducing the maximum torque pro-
duced; b) by keeping the engine at idle speed but slightly accelerated (during this
operation, the throttle control is disabled); c) the engine rpm is steady at around 3000
rpm; Under these conditions the throttle control provides limited management of the
torque.

NOTE
WHEN THE "URGENT SERVICE" ERROR APPEARS ON THE DIGITAL DISPLAY,
THE FOUR ARROWS FLASH FOR 30 SEC. TO WARN THE VEHICLES BEHIND
OF A POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS SITUATION UNTIL THE TURN INDICATOR IS
ACTIVATED TO ALLOW THE DRIVER TO PULL OVER.


My my!  Who would even have imagined such a thing?  That explains... much...   :laugh:  In particular, it suggests the root cause has been there all along, and the 2-3 previous riding glitches over the past 16 months were due to it rather then me hitting the hazard blinker by accident.

It also suggests a change in strategy.  Rather than assume the problem has corrected itself and ride the bike to see if the Check Engine light will reset, I will hope that The Secret ["Nyah ha ha!" etc] remains hidden somewhere in the depths of the ECU, and wait for that adapter cable to arrive so I can check for an OBD code.  In the meantime, I'll be forced to grit my teeth and... yes, life is cruel.. ride the Ducati...

This is getting interesting.  I'll post more when I learn more.


Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2022, 11:57:11 PM »
Great information.
I just wish Guzzi would list all the different faults that can trigger the alarm.
That would give as poor owners a fighting chance of troubleshooting.
With the distance between dealers the slow "Limp to a Dealer" mode is a sick joke IMHO.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 12:00:18 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline DesertPilot

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2022, 09:31:43 AM »
...With the distance between dealers the slow "Limp to a Dealer" mode is a sick joke IMHO.

Mine did reset when I turned the ignition (not just the engine cutoff) off and on, and I gather others have had the same experience.

Lonelec just shipped my adapter cable and KL-1 adapter (hurray!), so I'm hoping I'll be able to check the OBD codes this week.  The theories so far as
1) Evil MAP sensor.
2) Throttle motor has decided to rebel against its overlords.
3) It's been using some oil, this has fouled a lambda sensor, and lambdas have taken advantage of this to slip past the guards and wreak havok.
4) Space aliens. I beleive that's OBD code P9909.
5) There will be no code, leaving me to wait, worry, and wonder...

I'm hoping it's not 5 because that would not be emotionally satisfying, but we shall see...

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2022, 11:14:57 AM »
Mine did reset when I turned the ignition (not just the engine cutoff) off and on, and I gather others have had the same experience.

Lonelec just shipped my adapter cable and KL-1 adapter (hurray!), so I'm hoping I'll be able to check the OBD codes this week.  The theories so far as
1) Evil MAP sensor.
2) Throttle motor has decided to rebel against its overlords.
3) It's been using some oil, this has fouled a lambda sensor, and lambdas have taken advantage of this to slip past the guards and wreak havok.
4) Space aliens. I beleive that's OBD code P9909.
5) There will be no code, leaving me to wait, worry, and wonder...

I'm hoping it's not 5 because that would not be emotionally satisfying, but we shall see...

Could it be the oil pressure sensor/connector?  Now that you know it is not an accidental bumping of the hazard switch, have you been able to put together the situation or establish a common pattern?  I.E. bouncing off rev limiter, lugging, miss shift or over-rev on downshift?  Or does it just randomly happen?
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Offline DesertPilot

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2022, 01:01:27 PM »
Could it be the oil pressure sensor/connector?  Now that you know it is not an accidental bumping of the hazard switch, have you been able to put together the situation or establish a common pattern?  I.E. bouncing off rev limiter, lugging, miss shift or over-rev on downshift?  Or does it just randomly happen?
It's only happened 2-3 times in 16 months, and the first 1-2 times were so insignificant I didn't even realize it might be a thing, so I'm relying on some very unreliable memories when I search for patterns.  The only common thread *might* be 'rolling on lots of throttle uphill or at speed after an extended period at lower revs'.  I could make up any number of scenarios for that one.  Bouncing off the rev limiter seems unlikely, but I suppose it could have happened, so I'll take your advice and number this among them.  Thanks!

My plan remains wait for that OBD cable adapter to arrive, try to read some codes, if I find some, assume that's the problem and go from there, and if I don't find any codes, head out to the same place it happened last Saturday and try to reproduce everything I did... with the OBD reader handy in case anything shows up.  The start of next step of this investigation will be determined by the speed of international airmail from the fine fellows at Lonelec, who were quite quick about getting that order off.

Offline Huzo

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2022, 01:50:59 PM »
It's only happened 2-3 times in 16 months, and the first 1-2 times were so insignificant I didn't even realize it might be a thing, so I'm relying on some very unreliable memories when I search for patterns.  The only common thread *might* be 'rolling on lots of throttle uphill or at speed after an extended period at lower revs'.  I could make up any number of scenarios for that one.  Bouncing off the rev limiter seems unlikely, but I suppose it could have happened, so I'll take your advice and number this among them.  Thanks!

My plan remains wait for that OBD cable adapter to arrive, try to read some codes, if I find some, assume that's the problem and go from there, and if I don't find any codes, head out to the same place it happened last Saturday and try to reproduce everything I did... with the OBD reader handy in case anything shows up.  The start of next step of this investigation will be determined by the speed of international airmail from the fine fellows at Lonelec, who were quite quick about getting that order off.
If it’s of any interest.
I have bumped the rev limiter a couple of times and it’s not thrown a code.

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2022, 01:55:52 PM »
It's only happened 2-3 times in 16 months, and the first 1-2 times were so insignificant I didn't even realize it might be a thing, so I'm relying on some very unreliable memories when I search for patterns.  The only common thread *might* be 'rolling on lots of throttle uphill or at speed after an extended period at lower revs'.  I could make up any number of scenarios for that one.  Bouncing off the rev limiter seems unlikely, but I suppose it could have happened, so I'll take your advice and number this among them.  Thanks!

My plan remains wait for that OBD cable adapter to arrive, try to read some codes, if I find some, assume that's the problem and go from there, and if I don't find any codes, head out to the same place it happened last Saturday and try to reproduce everything I did... with the OBD reader handy in case anything shows up.  The start of next step of this investigation will be determined by the speed of international airmail from the fine fellows at Lonelec, who were quite quick about getting that order off.

Here's what I'm using. Most likely 1 day shipping for you.

https://www.obdinnovations.com/kkl-obd2-usb-cable-ftdi-ft232rl-chip-3-pin-adapter-cable/
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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2022, 02:20:41 PM »
A failed Lambda did not trigger an URGENT SERVICE ALARM for me and I put 230 miles on it after the MIL light came on. The bike ran fine as far as I could tell no stumble or hiccups.
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Offline DesertPilot

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2022, 03:42:17 PM »
Thanks for the info about the lamba sensor and rev limiter.  I too have bumped into the latter without incident (hooligan me!) but every clue helps.

Poking around Guzzitech, I see a case of a Cal 1400 (which i gather has the same ECU) with a much more severe bit of similar-seeming behavior that threw a P0155 code and I gather they eventually traced back to the throttle position sensor.  This might be something to think about when and if I finally have a chance to check for codes.  I very much suspect the ECU has already reset, because that's the way our Robot Overlords work, and I'll be reduced to nipping around and waiting for the behavior to recur so I can whip out my OBD reader, plug it in, grin smugly, and say, "Ah ha!  Take that, Robot Overlords!  I have Thwarted Your Nefarious Plan!"

If all goes well, the cable adapter should show up this week so I can begin some Plan Thwarting.

As I'm sure you all can guess, this is still in that blissfully ignorant Hasn't Caused Any Serious Inconvenience Of Cost Any Significant Amount Of Money So It's Still Sorta Fun stage of engine diagnostics.  Will the saga remain this benign?  We shall see...

Offline Huzo

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2022, 01:42:12 AM »
Thanks for the info about the lamba sensor and rev limiter.  I too have bumped into the latter without incident (hooligan me!) but every clue helps.

Poking around Guzzitech, I see a case of a Cal 1400 (which i gather has the same ECU) with a much more severe bit of similar-seeming behavior that threw a P0155 code and I gather they eventually traced back to the throttle position sensor.  This might be something to think about when and if I finally have a chance to check for codes.  I very much suspect the ECU has already reset, because that's the way our Robot Overlords work, and I'll be reduced to nipping around and waiting for the behavior to recur so I can whip out my OBD reader, plug it in, grin smugly, and say, "Ah ha!  Take that, Robot Overlords!  I have Thwarted Your Nefarious Plan!"

If all goes well, the cable adapter should show up this week so I can begin some Plan Thwarting.

As I'm sure you all can guess, this is still in that blissfully ignorant Hasn't Caused Any Serious Inconvenience Of Cost Any Significant Amount Of Money So It's Still Sorta Fun stage of engine diagnostics.  Will the saga remain this benign?  We shall see...
Part of me hopes that you don’t get it sorted.
I’m enjoying your stoic forbearance and witty turn of phrase... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Offline DesertPilot

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2022, 03:44:09 PM »
Part of me hopes that you don’t get it sorted...
Have no fear!  Three decades of English sports car ownership (doesn't everyone carry a valve spring compressor, spare valves, and head gasket set in the boot for quick roadside repairs?) allowed me to perfect my 'don't get it sorted' skills to a very high level.  As I shall proceed to demonstrate...  :grin:

Offline DesertPilot

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2022, 05:48:37 PM »
It took forever -- with a brief digression to determine that no, the Euro4 16 to 3 point adoptor won't work even though this is a Euro4 bike who'd have guessed but hey I can use it on the Ducati -- but I finally managed to lay my hands on a 16 to 6 pin OBD2 adapter for the 7SM ECU used by the V85TT. 

Tah dah!





Was there indeed an error code to reward all my efforts?  The answer was yes.

(see note above about, "Tah dah!"')





Examination of the OBD code reference guide on the Guzzitech forums suggests the problem is either 1) a bad connector to the throttle body actuator, 2) a bad wire somewhere, 3) a problem with the actuator itself ick, or 4) space aliens.  The question becomes, how enthusiastic am I about the prospect of siphoning 40 lbs of gas out of the tank so I can pull the tank to locate the connectors, conclude I can't see anything wrong with them, but the tank back on, refill it, start the engine, and have the problem reappear (Yes, members of my tribe have a realistic attitude about how the world works).  The answer may depend on just how hard the connectors are to inspect.

Have any of you had this OBD code, gotten it sorted, and/or had occasion to poke around the throttle body and figure out where the relevant connectors are hidden?  If so... just where are they hidden, and is it possible to get at them without pulling too many things apart?  I suppose I could look all this up in the service manual, but where's the sport in that?   :grin:

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Online Chethro

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2022, 06:24:45 PM »
In front of the left side panel there is a connector on the throttle body. Google Mistras V85TT V-Twin boost dongle IIRC and you will see where it’s at.  You can reach this without removing anything.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 06:26:55 PM by Chethro »
2018 DR 650
2020 V85TT
2022 V7 850 Stone

Online Chethro

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Re: A V85TT mystery -- What is going on here?
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2022, 06:29:14 PM »
Maybe look for chafed throttle wiring around the steering neck?

I tend to look at the last thing I touched or modified too.  😜
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 06:30:49 PM by Chethro »
2018 DR 650
2020 V85TT
2022 V7 850 Stone

 

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