Author Topic: V65 Florida dies on choke on  (Read 2230 times)

Offline Tinus89

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V65 Florida dies on choke on
« on: April 21, 2020, 02:41:37 AM »
Hey all,


Recently I've purchased a V65 Florida, with the goal of transforming it into a cafe racer.
Now the bike starts and runs fine, except for the choke. It was stuck on the left carb, which I managed to work free. Cleaned both carbs and blasted every jet with compressed air.

Symptoms: bike starts & runs fine when warm (after 3-4min it will keep idling fine). However when I apply the choke (cold engine as well as warm), the bike dies on the left cilinder. It just does not want to run with the choke on.
Choke off and a bit of throttle to keep the revs above 1000, all is good.
TB's are synched/balanced at idle using idle screws and at 3k rpm using gas cable adjusters. Runs fantastic.


Ideas?

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2020, 02:09:17 PM »
I also sync choke cables if it doesn't have separate levers. It is most likely the choke jet. OR rubber on end of plunger or oring on choke jet or on the top by lever or top where cable goes in. The circuit sucks gas strait out of bowl, no need for more than a #60.
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Online bad Chad

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2020, 02:20:26 PM »
Are you in the North America?  Those are super rare if so.  You, of course will do as you want, but if y cafe it out itís just going to be another cafe bike, but a un-molested Florida,  that would be cool.
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Online malik

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2020, 03:05:15 PM »
You go ahead & cafe it. The Florida was another unfortunate exercise in styling, and needs turning back into a proper Guzzi. Of course, only my opinion, but I'm with you. You're not alone. There's more than a few decent examples out there among the dross.
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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2020, 03:05:15 PM »

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2020, 03:53:34 PM »
Not sure I understand your problem.  I've never worked on a carburetor Guzzi that would run with the choke activated.  The 'choke' system in a DelLorto carb is not really a choke, but rather and enrichening circuit.  They are very binary in operation, ON/OFF, and do not deal well with minor adjustments.  When ON, they provide way more fuel than is necessary.  Sort of an all-or-nothing effect.  A properly running bike will soon die if you don't add some throttle to provide air to combat the excessive fuel.  The 'choke' is for starting, not running.  Depending on how cold, you may need to feather the choke and throttle each a little to keep it running  until it warms up a bit.

YMMV.

Patrick Hayes
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Offline John A

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2020, 07:41:39 PM »
In addition to what Patrick says it sounds like the choke cable slack is not even between carbs
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 09:42:34 PM by John A »
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Offline Tinus89

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2020, 01:16:41 AM »
Hi all, thanks for responding!

I am not in the US but in the Netherlands, where Florida's are very common. And indeed, I think they are not a real Guzzi at all styling wise.
As I am a real lover of mostly the older type Guzzi's (and my 2001 V11 Sport, see intro thread), I am convinced I can make this a thing of beauty, a real Guzzi. :afro:

Now onto the issue: I am a fairly experienced mechanic, but not with carburettors. They always seemed to work for me, and I have never had to work on the split system.
It's clear to me now the choke setting is much more sensitive than I thought. I know the bike should die with full choke on, but with partial choke it only dies on the left, which isn't correct. I'll compare the carburettors side by side (including choke jet size, it should be a 60) and report back in 1-2 days. :thumb:

Offline Bluerobotz

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2020, 04:28:34 AM »
Hi all, thanks for responding!

I am not in the US but in the Netherlands, where Florida's are very common. And indeed, I think they are not a real Guzzi at all styling wise.
As I am a real lover of mostly the older type Guzzi's (and my 2001 V11 Sport, see intro thread), I am convinced I can make this a thing of beauty, a real Guzzi. :afro:

Now onto the issue: I am a fairly experienced mechanic, but not with carburettors. They always seemed to work for me, and I have never had to work on the split system.
It's clear to me now the choke setting is much more sensitive than I thought. I know the bike should die with full choke on, but with partial choke it only dies on the left, which isn't correct. I'll compare the carburettors side by side (including choke jet size, it should be a 60) and report back in 1-2 days. :thumb:

If it was me, I'd get a gasket/seal set and give them a dismantle and good clean out. Check out all the cables too.
2003 B750, 1984 GPz900R A1, 1985 GPz900R A2, 1981 V50 Monza, 1973 Eldorado Civilian

Offline pat80flh

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2020, 06:04:44 AM »
Not for nothing but my 84 V65C runs like shit when cold, stalling multiple times, needing constant throttle to keep running, taking forever to warm up. Runs like a champ warm,no problems. Just cold blooded. Carb bikes need to warm up and apparently V65's especially. Other owners of V65's have told me the same thing. It is possible you're chasing a normal condition.
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2020, 07:19:58 AM »
In addition to what Patrick says it sounds like the choke cable slack is not even between carbs

Basically, that's what I said on the V11 forum. That's my bet, anyway.
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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2020, 12:51:46 PM »
I had a v65, it ran great when cold.

But I had a professional Guzzi Guru set it up, before that it wasnít quite perfect.
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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2020, 01:07:43 PM »
I know the bike should die with full choke on, but with partial choke it only dies on the left, which isn't correct.

Why do you write this "isn't correct."?  The hand choke lever has one cable.  It goes to a 'splitter' which then separates into two individual cables, one for each carb.  When you pull on the cables, an internal plunger device lifts off of an enrichening port to allow liquid gas flow.  It would be nearly impossible to get both of these ports to expose and release fuel exactly simultaneously.  So, a partial choke might allow additional fuel on one carb but not on the other.  Sounds normal to me.  Trying to match the two choke plungers to work in unison would be like chasing your tail.  The finite adjustment is going to change every time you pull on the cables and every time you go through a heat/cool cycle.  Not worth it.  Just use the choke for starting cold.  Then use a little throttle and perhaps an occasional blip of the choke to keep it running until it is warm enough to maintain idle on its own.  It sounds like you are familiar with fuel injection motorcycles and cars.  All of this stuff is handled by the fuel injection computer so you can just start and idle.  Not so with a carb.  ESPECIALLY not so with a DelLorto carb.

Patrick Hayes
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Offline Tinus89

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2020, 02:15:31 AM »
Thanks for all the responses. I've already learned a lot here.

So it appears V65's don't like running cold... I know I may be chasing a ghost here and I also understand now there will always be a difference in right and left, which I can accept.

The only thing I can't accept, is what happens when I start her cold. With a tiny bit of choke, she already refuses to fire up. When I close the choke she fires up, but when I reopen the choke just ever so slightly, the left cilinder dies.
Because of this, I expect to have trouble starting when it is cold outside.

I've really precisely measured choke cable slack on both sides, and later on given left a tiny bit more slack than right. The behavior remains the same...
Choke jet is #60 as per manual, o-ring gives good resistance when installing float bowl and the rubber bit on the bottom of the plunger is good.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 02:17:35 AM by Tinus89 »

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2020, 03:01:51 AM »
Surprising Chuck has not said
Most fuel problems are actually electrical
Iíd give it plugs at least, clean points if yours runs them, check timing
But if you want to absolutely prove the fault, swap components
Plugs
If same
Coils /ht leads (swap lt wires and run ht leads to other side)

If neither, swap carbs but Iím doubting that one

You are correct, this should not happen, you should be able to run each cylinder separately.


EDIT
Quickest test
Close plug  gap on offending side, to 010Ē  and try
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 03:17:50 AM by jacksonracingcomau »

Offline Tinus89

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2020, 04:19:43 AM »
That sounds like a plan.

Out of curiosity, what would closing that plug gap do? Increase the spark energy?

Offline Loop Tonti EV

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2020, 04:55:37 AM »
What spark plugs are you using? My wife's V65SP is cold blooded like most are. I raised the needles one notch, synced the choke cables, which by the way there are two, synced the carbs. This all helped. Then I switched to a hotter plug. I went from an NGK BP6ES to a BP5ES. That helped more than anything else I did. Just remember that with NGKs you drop a number to go hotter.

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2020, 05:12:09 AM »
Put in larger pilot jets. It helps with being cold blooded and will run better when warm if you don't go too big.
When the weather is warm you won't even need the choke. Just a bit of throttle for a bit until it will idle and it won't take but 30 sec. As it warms the idle improves but you can fire it up and once it will run with no throttle you are ready to go.
I can start mine and back it out of the shed then turn it around and go.
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Offline Tinus89

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2020, 05:35:36 AM »
Love the amount of responses :bow:

I'll have to have a look at the plugs currently installed, will come back to that.

On going a pilot jet size up, what step are you suggesting?

Offline Furbo

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2020, 08:48:42 AM »
Well,

my first thought was "A dead Florida is a Good Florida", :evil: then I read this.

Recently I've purchased a V65 Florida, with the goal of transforming it into a cafe racer.

I suspect you have either a blockage or a vacuum leak in the choke circuit on the LH side.

Those Del's are one step above a lawn mower carb - very simple, keep at it and you'll figure it out.   
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Offline nsmith

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2020, 09:29:16 AM »
My V50 was a troublesome little bastard until I went silly with it. Adjusting each carb float as if working on a single cylinder. The two floats are adjusted way different but the bike runs spot on. Easy cold or warm start, quick to warm up. great fuel mileage. Just a joy to ride. With that said I would lower the fuel level in the left carb ever so slightly to see if anything changed. Might not work but it sure did with mine.
Neil formally from South Dakota now living it up in Arkansas

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2020, 11:51:49 AM »
I'll have to have a look at the plugs currently installed, will come back to that.

Regina used to ride a V 65C.  It was a bear to start.  I changed plugs and transformed the machine.  Now all that I use in every Guzzi except my old singles.  I have been using and touting these plugs for years.

http://www.guzzipower.com/Sparkplug-pehayes.html

Hard to find. Try EBAY.

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Offline BigDen

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2020, 06:24:11 PM »


Quote from: Tinus89 on Today at 05:35:36 AM
Love the amount of responses :bow:

I'll have to have a look at the plugs currently installed, will come back to that.

On going a pilot jet size up, what step are you suggesting?

After checking float levels, choke cables and plungers check if both choke jets are the same. If so and its still cold blooded increase pilot jet size by two steps. Say it has a 50, go to a 55. If its too rich go down to a 52 or whatever the next size is. If too lean go up another two.
Its worked on my bikes and it how we've tuned many a race car.

On straight ethanol its a whole nother animal. The above goes out the window.

But do as all have said first to ensure its not just jetting.

On both my Guzzis (1000 30 mm) if I set the chokes it fires up but before too long it starts to run rough unless I clear it but by that time I can just turn off the chokes.
Finally I started pulling one cable and firing it. Then the cables rusted so I installed individual plungers and alternate sides.
In summer I don't use them.
Its not out of the question to find different jets from the factory. A friend knew a guy who bought a small block new many moons ago and could never get it to run right. After much work it was found to have a head different from the other.
Keep us posted and good luck!


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Offline Tinus89

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2020, 01:39:14 PM »
Right. This goes more interesting by the day. :weiner:

As the spark plug caps were a little odd anyway (sorta 45deg angle), I purchased two new ones as well as two BP5ES plugs (NGK).
Unscrewed the old (but fairly new): BP7ES (R) and BP8ES (L).
I thought: this must be it!
It was not.

What I did:
- Compared both carbs, all jets, all the same and all as per Workshop Manual. Forgot to measure the float positions, but at least they were equal.
- MEASURED&set choke cable play left/right at 3mm. Also secured the splitter & cables to prevent movement there.
- Cut 15mm of each HT lead and installed new caps with new plugs gapped at 0.6mm.
- Set choke to first notch (lifting plungers about 1mm of seat)
Atempted to start the bike. After about 10sec cranking, closed choke and she fired up immediately. Had to keep revs on to keep her running though.

When I give her some revs (2k) and I open the choke again, she now dies on both cilinders. Blackish smoke out of both exhausts. Checked plugs after this, both wet. She's still drowning on choke.
Also did the test at idle and at 3k rpm, shutting off ignition and checking plugs. Could've been a bit dryer (keep in mind I used the ignition to switch off, so the last cycle is no spark), but color is good.

I'm considering giving up. Given the major customisation I'm planning to do, I may actually revert to two manual choke plungers anyway. It seems like she would more benefit a RPM increaser (pulling the throttle cable when cold, like on FI bikes (my V11)), as firing up without choke when cold is no issue.
Maybe in future (after mods) rebuild the carbs with a seal kit and potentially increase the pilot jet a size.
So unless you have some sort of brilliant ideas... :bike-037:

Offline Tom H

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2020, 01:57:05 PM »
I never used the chokes on my Ambo or Eldo with a cold or hot engine. IF I did, it would not start. If at idle or just over, pull the choke and it dies.

I now have a V1000 engine that I'm working with. When cold it will not start unless I use the choke. I flip the choke lever, 2 small twists of throttle to pump some gas, hit the starter. It starts. Then I promptly close the choke and hold the throttle. IF I leave the choke open to let it warm up at idle, it dies. Once warmed up for the day, it starts with out the choke. Maybe if I let it sit for many hours, I might need the choke again?

From reading your issue, if I'm reading right, sorta sounds normal.

Good luck,
Tom
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 02:00:44 PM by Tom H »
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Offline John A

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2020, 02:53:08 PM »
What is the valve lash set at?
John
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Offline Tinus89

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2020, 03:47:43 AM »
What is the valve lash set at?

0.15/0.2mm in/ex.

Offline John A

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2020, 10:04:59 PM »
0.15/0.2mm in/ex.



Sounds right.  What is the ignition system?  Chuck says you can fix a lot of carb problems by fixing the ignition
John
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Offline Tinus89

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2020, 09:58:05 AM »
Ignition system is a Carmo Electronics electronic one.

Offline John A

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Re: V65 Florida dies on choke on
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2020, 10:43:55 AM »
Thatís one Iíve never heard of...
John
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It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them that they have been fooled-Mark Twain


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