Author Topic: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.  (Read 2109 times)

Offline baxterday

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Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« on: March 06, 2023, 12:36:04 PM »
I hope I am placing this in the correct forum.  I have a 1993 SP3 I bought out west.  The owner didn't tell me it was leaking oil like a sieve prior to riding back to my home in GA, as well as a few other things, but that is water under the bridge.  So I leave a western state and start my trek.  I noticed the shifting was a bit different than my other Guzzi's.  I stopped for fuel in Kansas and when I left the station, it would not shift out of second gear.  I pulled off the road played with the shifter and it worked.  I was able to ride all the way to Chattanooga and it did it again after I stopped for some cigars.  I had to call my wife and haul it back to the house in our trailer. 
The shifting was very different than my LeMans IV.  So, I ask for any help to the problem that you guys might have.  Could the adjusting nut on the back of the tranny need to be turned in one direction or another.  I know it's like a small cam that adjusts shift.  The tranny has gear oil in it, but seems to have a leak, not sure where yet as the front seal is leaking really bad.  The rear tire and brake are coated with oil.  I am prepared to pull the tranny, but don't really have the knowledge to rebuid it if that is what it needs. 
Would a used tranny be worth finding and if so, what models tranny would work in the SP3?
I also know there is a spring that can go that causes issues with the tranny, is that something that could cause this? 
The clutch seems to work fine as I have to pull it in to move the bike and do so without issue. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 12:43:20 PM by baxterday »

Online bobrebos1

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2023, 01:00:34 PM »
I cant help with the transmission problem, but i see you are in Ellijay Ga.  Im between Chattanooga and Dalton.  About three miles from Georgia border in Tennessee.  Cool to have another Guzzi owner in the area.  Good luck with the fix!
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Online guido guzzi

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2023, 01:02:13 PM »
Others with much more knowledge will be along shortly... I believe that any 5 speed Guzzi transmission will work. I'd probably open up the original one first but a replacement could wind up being the cheapest option.  Also, try to get a replacement from a model that has the same final drive ratio as your bike.  I transplanted all the guts from a Jackal (?) 5 speed into my Sport 1100's Transmission and the speedometer is dead nuts accurate. Have heard of others doing the same and the speedo was waaay off - something like displaying 40% of actual speed - despite changing the transmission's speedometer driving gear.  :undecided:
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Offline czakky82

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2023, 01:26:57 PM »
If you’re pulling the transmission you might wanna just read up on it.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/gearbox-rebuilding-john-noble.pdf

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2023, 01:26:57 PM »

Online blackcat

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2023, 01:59:04 PM »
If you’re pulling the transmission you might wanna just read up on it.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/gearbox-rebuilding-john-noble.pdf

John's instructions are very good.

It's leaking oil and you are sure it is gear oil?  It could be that you have a broken shifter spring and a bad seal, neither one is too hard to repair but you will have to pull the the transmission for both repairs. I wouldn't buy a new transmission until you pull the existing one and report back with what you have.
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2023, 03:31:21 PM »
This sounds like Mike from Augusta's friend in N.GA. Finally got to look at it eh? Make sure linkage is not hitting frame first to not allow full swing. You can move Adj on back 1/16-1/8 turn no more either way, just enough to see if it helps. I would mark a line on the head so you don't go too far. The spring can come off if you go to far so be cautious. Make sure all pivot bolts are snug & secure and lever doesn't hit frame by swingarm pivot pins. Triangle part of frame.
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Offline baxterday

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2023, 03:49:52 PM »
This sounds like Mike from Augusta's friend in N.GA. Finally got to look at it eh? Make sure linkage is not hitting frame first to not allow full swing. You can move Adj on back 1/16-1/8 turn no more either way, just enough to see if it helps. I would mark a line on the head so you don't go too far. The spring can come off if you go to far so be cautious. Make sure all pivot bolts are snug & secure and lever doesn't hit frame by swingarm pivot pins. Triangle part of frame.

It is me, I am Mike's friend in Ellijay.

Offline baxterday

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2023, 04:18:19 PM »
If you’re pulling the transmission you might wanna just read up on it.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/pdf/gearbox-rebuilding-john-noble.pdf

I just read through his instructions, what an incredible job he did.  I hope I don't have to get that far into it, but I may.  My speedo was about 10 mph off and RPM's seemed to be a bit high in 5th gear compared to my BMW R100RS.  I have the other instructions on removing the tranny printed out, and will probably remove it tomorrow.  Thank you everyone for your suggestions and insight.  Just hoping it's something simple. 

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2023, 07:42:54 PM »
You might want to do a search here for “crabbing the frame” to learn how to get the tranny removed. And get at the back of motor.
Are you planning to replace the engine rear main seal too? You are sure the leak is motor oil not gear lube, right?
How many miles on this beast?
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Offline baxterday

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2023, 09:02:04 PM »
You might want to do a search here for “crabbing the frame” to learn how to get the tranny removed. And get at the back of motor.
Are you planning to replace the engine rear main seal too? You are sure the leak is motor oil not gear lube, right?
How many miles on this beast?
I was going to replace the rear seal as well as the front since there appears to be oil coming from it.  I have already printed out the instructions on crabbing the frame.  I am seeing oil on the right side of the motor and what smells like gear oil at the rear.   The rear tire and brake caliper are full of oil residue.  Had I been told this I would have had the bike shipped.  It shows about 25K on the odometer, but I have no way of knowing if that is accurate or not, I am less than impressed with the sellers integrity. 

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2023, 07:45:20 AM »
A knowledgeable observer from afar:

“Chances are his problems are related to the oil leak.

I'll bet that the gearbox input or output shaft bearing has bust up one of its plastic
cages and pushed bits of it out through the seal, hence the Exxon Valdez impersonation.

Poor shifting might be related to bits of errant cage in the box but also might just be
poor adjustment. Either way he shouldn't ride it until it's fixed.”
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Offline Old Jock

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2023, 08:16:22 AM »
IF either of the Clutchshaft (input) or Layshaft (output) bearings have started to go south it could possibly result in the box locking up.

Either of the bearings collapsing could cause shaft misalignment, or just general mayhem.

The Phenolic/Nylon/Plastic bearings for both these shafts shafts support the majority of the load.

If it was me I wouldn't contemplate riding the bike until sorted, if that's the cause.

I'd get rid of these bearings and install the all metal type that I mentioned in the write up, methinks that's what BC's sage advice might have been alluding to.

Many thanks for the kind words, the whole thing was more of an article that ended up going rogue.

John

Offline baxterday

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2023, 09:58:55 AM »
IF either of the Clutchshaft (input) or Layshaft (output) bearings have started to go south it could possibly result in the box locking up.

Either of the bearings collapsing could cause shaft misalignment, or just general mayhem.

The Phenolic/Nylon/Plastic bearings for both these shafts shafts support the majority of the load.

If it was me I wouldn't contemplate riding the bike until sorted, if that's the cause.

I'd get rid of these bearings and install the all metal type that I mentioned in the write up, methinks that's what BC's sage advice might have been alluding to.

Many thanks for the kind words, the whole thing was more of an article that ended up going rogue.

John

I won't be riding it until things are sorted out.  Should have the tranny out this afternoon, I will then follow your well written instructions to take care of any issues.  I hope to  report back the issues I find.  With luck I will have it back together by the end of the month for a early April ride/stay with friends to the area of the Dragon.  Wish me luck!

Offline Testarossa

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2023, 12:58:37 PM »
Sounds like the gearbox is running dry. Once you have the gearbox off the bell housing the leak may be obvious. One thing no-one has mentioned: There's a stake nut at the end of the layshaft. If that wasn't staked, or staked so aggressively as to crack the nut, the layshaft can spin forward and drill itself fright through the front of the gearbox, dumping oil into the bell housing.

As long as you're in there, replace the clutch and the shift selector spring etc.

It all looks complex but I've done it twice and if I can do it, anyone can.
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Offline Don G

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2023, 01:40:11 PM »
Maybe the output shaft nut has come loose? Have seen that a few ties, makes for a bad shifting, oil leaking, 1940s Ford truck sounding gearbox.  DonG

Offline baxterday

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2023, 06:01:40 PM »
Unfortunately I did not have time to remove the tranny today, looking like Saturday now. 

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2023, 07:04:55 PM »
Good luck and take your time. It's not to bad if you follow the instructions on crabbing.

My take on crabbing. A cherry picker/engine hoist for the rear of the frame and a platform screw jack for the engine works great. Also a very stable wheel chock helps like the Harbor Freight black one.

Tom
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Offline pehayes

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2023, 07:16:57 PM »
Some comments before you go too far.

The spring has nothing to do with your problem.  It either works or it is broken.  Binary.  The spring can't show issues that come and go.  If the shift linkage automatically returns to its central position then the spring is working.  If the spring breaks, the shift lever will remain at either full up or full down and you'd have to physically pull it back to center.

Sounds like your issue is happening after long, hard runs when you stop to refuel.   Look carefully, the shift linkage goes through a pivot welded as part of the frame.  The exhaust header pipe aligns VERY close to that frame rail and the linkage pivot.  Quite easy for the pivot itself to get very hot and very dry and start binding.  In such case, the shift lever may stick one way or the other and mimic a broken spring.  I'd start right now by spraying a whole bunch of  your favorite spray lubricant all over the pivot area and see if that makes things easier.  Also not too difficult to disconnect and remove the linkage to physically clean and grease lubricate the interior of that pivot.  A quick spray will at least give you a hint.

Patrick Hayes
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Offline baxterday

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2023, 02:33:45 PM »
First let me thank everyone for their help.  I am just about to crab the frame and pull the tranny.  I did pull the clutch rod and found only one of the little flat bearings in place, I thought there were supposed to be two.  As I removed the rod and the little flat bearing remaining started to drop all the little rollers and then when I got the rod all the way out, there was a mangled piece of metal about 30 millimeters long and about 1 in diameter.  Also, gear oil started to leak from the hole.  Heading back to crab the frame and yank the tranny.  That's all I have for now, I guess the next step is to open the tranny and hope to see something obvious. 

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2023, 05:23:44 PM »
That part should look like this on back end of rod. Is that what's mangled up?

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Offline pehayes

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2023, 07:11:32 PM »
I did pull the clutch rod and found only one of the little flat bearings in place, I thought there were supposed to be two.  As I removed the rod and the little flat bearing remaining started to drop all the little rollers and then when I got the rod all the way out, there was a mangled piece of metal about 30 millimeters long and about 1 in diameter.  Also, gear oil started to leak from the hole.

The throwout system passes through a 22mm hole in the back cover of the transmission.  The bottom level of that hole is at or above the high tide level for gear oil.  So, oil should NOT come out unless overfilled.

The combination of parts in the throwout system should look like this:



Note that there is only one bearing with captive rollers.  But those rollers ride (or roll) sandwiched between two very-hard race washers.  Lately, some suppliers have been delivering a bearing with the rollers captive into one of the race washers and then only one other loose race washer.  I prefer the original.

Also note the rubber o-ring in the outer body.  Good idea to replace that while it is out.

Can you please post a picture of the mangled piece?  Sounds like you are describing the inner body but that should not be damaged in any way.

Patrick Hayes
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« Last Edit: March 11, 2023, 07:13:04 PM by pehayes »

Offline Old Jock

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2023, 04:15:47 AM »
Not uncommon for the throwout, or as I prefer thrust, bearing to come to pieces, it's pretty fragile

It's important that the adjustment mechansim on the clutch arm which is attached to the cable at one end and pushes onto the plunger in the endcase, does not touch the plunger when the clutch isn't being actuated (when the clutch allows the engine and gbx to connect. That's why there is a light spring that acts on the arm to push it clear when not in use.

If the arm is touching the plunger when not being actuated, it can cause the rod to spin, resulting in the bearing failing, not good.

Offline baxterday

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2023, 01:36:09 PM »
Finally got the tranny out a short time ago.  It's obviously been out before and opened.  I found a small bearing roller on the magnet when I emptied the oil out of it, and saw that the bolt on the front is mangled up.  See photos.  Now to open it up.




Offline baxterday

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2023, 01:48:27 PM »
So reading the instructions on opening the tranny to repair it, it says to put it in neutral.  That is not an option for me as mine is stuck in 2nd and will not shift out of it.  Any recommendations?  Can anyone recommend a Guzzi tranny specialist in GA or TN?  I am not sure if I should open it up. 

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2023, 02:28:01 PM »
Normally you would remove the rear cover to open up the trans. If your not in neutral, you end up pulling all the gears out with the cover , trust me I know.

Someone on here said you can pull the case off the cover leaving everything in place on the cover. Have the trans bell housing facing up with the cover down, and it may slide apart. Just a thought.

No help for someone to do it for you where you live.

Good luck!
Tom
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Offline Scout63

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2023, 04:01:33 PM »
Guzzi calls it a gearbox and the rear drive is sometimes called the transmission.  That bit of luck librarianism out of the way, pulling the rear cover, cleaning out the gearbox and reinstalling the clusters and shift drum is a very fiddly job but not bad if you take your time.  I would pull the shafts, rods and drum, noting very carefully the shim positions, and then check all of the bearings. Replacing the shift spring is a must-do if the box is apart.  If you can get an old u-joint half it is very handy for spinning the rear output shaft while checking shifting.  Don’t try to check the shifting without reinstalling and snugging up the rear output shaft nut.  Don’t ask how I know.  Have fun with it and good luck.
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Offline baxterday

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2023, 05:42:15 PM »
Well, I pulled the cover off.  I have not removed the front special bolt yet.  The picture above of the little bearing piece, well I found a whole bunch more in the tranny.  Some are cut in half and there was a whole bunch of metal shavings in the tranny as well.  It looks like the bearing at the rear of the tranny where the rod for the clutch goes may have failed and come apart?  Hopefully I will be able to get it back together and going again.  I do not notice any bearing with plastic in them, maybe they had been replaced? 

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2023, 06:57:17 PM »
 :gotpics:
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Offline czakky82

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2023, 07:06:26 PM »
Sounds like your throw out bearing.  While in there I would atleast replace the inlet and outlet bearing and give it a shot at shimming the drum.

The Guzzi transmission was my first foray into MC transmissions. If I can do it, you can! :thumb:

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Re: Transmission stuck in 2nd gear.
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2023, 07:29:26 PM »
Your problem of the transmission stuck in 2nd gear reminded me of this song from back in the fifties, Dusty would surely remember it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2skGMkxB6Ng
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Well, I've got a baby, she's a bad motorcycle
Brrooom-pa-pa-pa, pa-pa-pa-pa-paw
When we ride together, all through the night
She's got a real wild machine and it's out of sight
She goes brrooom-pa-pa-pa, paw-paw, motorcycle
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