V7II won't start

[gorgegeezer]

Hello All,
2016 V7II Stone with about 4000 miles.  Went for a ride on Saturday and stopped at a rest area. Go to start it and it makes the whirring noise, gauges do their thing, lights flash - all normal except it doesn't even turnover - silence.  Fuss with it a bit (kickstand up and down, move gear shift lever) and after a couple of tries it starts right up.  Runs fine for the 45 minute ride home.  Today, same deal: does its pre-start routine then push the start button and nothing happens.  Battery Tender says the battery is charged.  Any ideas?  Thanks.

[DaSwami]

The only time that ever happened to me the engine kill switch was tripped.  I'm guessing that is not your problem.

[pete roper]

Check the battery terminals and main earth strap point for tightness and cleanliness. Will it turn over but not fire? If so check our plug caps.

pete

[Penderic]

Starter relay not getting all the voltage due to poor connection in a circuit connector.

Happened to me with a corroded terminal in a connector behind and above the voltage regulator - just under the front of the fuel tank.

Good luck!

[Kev m]

Just because I did it twice this weekend (after 11k miles of ownership) you didn't perchance leave it in gear with the sidestand down?

[gorgegeezer]

Thank you for the suggestions.  I've done the kickstand down while in gear trick myself a few times.  I like the corroded/loose connector idea - accounts for the flakiness of the problem. I'll be looking into that this week.
Thanks again for the responses - great resource.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I'm with Penderick - Sounds like a typical case of Startus Interuptus but what do I know?

Do you get a faint clicking noise in the relay area?

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Measure the Voltage, fuse C to chassis while trying to start.
Measure the Voltage on the purple wire at the starter solenoid to chassis while trying to start.
Measure the Voltage at the battery negative terminal (jamb probe into the post)  to chassis while trying to start.

Report back.

[sign216]

Like KiwiRoy said, are you getting the clicking sound of the starter solenoid engaging, or just silence (aside from the dials moving and the fuel injection loading)?  That info will help us locate the problem.

It could be one of the starter interlock switches ; neutral, kickstand, kill switch.

As always, cleaning and tightening the battery connection and starer/solenoid connection is good.

Keep us posted on whether you get the solenoid "clicking" or not.

Joe

[Kev m]

Fwiw, I've not even started to worry about Startus Interruptus on my 2013 yet. Just the fact the circuit different use the computer controlled one-touch release line the CARCs makes me suspicious that it won't show up nearly as early in a bike's life.

[gorgegeezer]

The start relay is silent.  Pulled the connector off the relay and reseated it - no good.  Fuses good. Looked at clutch & side stand connections hoping to see something obvious - yeah, right.  That's about all I had time for this evening, but later in the week I'll pull the relay connector and give it a proper cleaning. Thanks again for your help.

[mtwillyman]

Try a new battery. Good luck.

[sign216]

The start relay is silent.  Pulled the connector off the relay and reseated it - no good.  Fuses good. Looked at clutch & side stand connections hoping to see something obvious - yeah, right.  That's about all I had time for this evening, but later in the week I'll pull the relay connector and give it a proper cleaning. Thanks again for your help.

In summary, power goes to the gauges and lights, but the engine doesn't tun over.  And the starter solenoid isn't clicking either.

Next see is power is getting to the starter relay.  There should be a click here when the relay connects, although fainter than the solenoid.  Turn the key and try to start, listening for the relays.  Take off the seat so you can listen better, and touching the relays will let you feel the clicking. 

And as always, the first step is tightening the battery connections, the primary battery ground (I think this cable goes to an engine bolt on the right side), the starter and solenoid connections, and making sure the battery is good and fully charged.  Even thought this is a newer bike, the battery can still be bad through bad storeage, etc.

[fotoguzzi]

   Battery Tender says the battery is charged.  Any ideas?  Thanks.

your BT knows nothing.. get a load test.

[Kev m]

Next see is power is getting to the starter relay.  There should be a click here when the relay connects, although fainter than the solenoid.  Turn the key and try to start, listening for the relays.  Take off the seat so you can listen better, and touching the relays will let you feel the clicking. 

And as always, the first step is tightening the battery connections, the primary battery ground (I think this cable goes to an engine bolt on the right side), the starter and solenoid connections, and making sure the battery is good and fully charged.  Even thought this is a newer bike, the battery can still be bad through bad storeage, etc.

Kinda tough listening for a relay on the 1TB motor since they're under the tank.

OP - Look, if it works one second and doesn't the next, the battery itself is fine. A battery doesn't not have a proper charge, but suddenly does seconds later. In a RARE instance it might have been so discharged it just barely had enough and something else kept the circuit from starting for one second and then a second later it made the connection just starting in the nick of time. Bahh, if you hear footprints think horses not zebras. It's not the battery.

There is a loose or bad connection somewhere.

Sure, check the battery cables, but in this particular instance I'm leaning towards a neutral safety switch or clutch switch or something like that which can be fussy or just out of position breaking the circuit.

We know the fuse (15A, 3rd from the left) is good because the circuit worked eventually. It COULD be loose, but unlikely. Also keep in mind the fuse powers the ECU, instrument panel, and injectors. I believe you said the instrument panel came on, which would always mean the fuse is still good.

It COULD be a relay, and there's no harm unbolting the back of the tank, lifting it up and feeling to see if the starter relay (middle of the 3) is clicking. You could also make sure the relay is fully seated in the electrical connector (which is different from just making sure its grommet is sitting on the locating blade). If you really wanted to you could swap any of the relays to see if the problem follows the relay.

They are all 30A relays. I think the other two are lights and injection, but I can't readily find their locations (not sure which is the front relay and which is the rear, but that's easy enough to determine if you swap two and the starter suddenly works but the lights don't or something like that you'll know).

Poke around and see what you can find. Unfortunately you can only diagnose it while the problem is happening.

Next see is power is getting to the starter relay.  There should be a click here when the relay connects, although fainter than the solenoid.  Turn the key and try to start, listening for the relays.  Take off the seat so you can listen better, and touching the relays will let you feel the clicking. 

And as always, the first step is tightening the battery connections, the primary battery ground (I think this cable goes to an engine bolt on the right side), the starter and solenoid connections, and making sure the battery is good and fully charged.  Even thought this is a newer bike, the battery can still be bad through bad storeage, etc.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The start relay is silent.  Pulled the connector off the relay and reseated it - no good.  Fuses good. Looked at clutch & side stand connections hoping to see something obvious - yeah, right.  That's about all I had time for this evening, but later in the week I'll pull the relay connector and give it a proper cleaning. Thanks again for your help.

To add to what Sign216 said
Unplug the start relay with your Voltmeter or a test light plugged into the relay socket 1 & 2 you should see 12 Volts when you press start.
The relay coil will measure about 100 Ohms.
Measure the Voltage between fuse C and chassis should be 12 Volts and only drop 1/2 Volt with start.
Measure the Voltage at the spade connector on the solenoid with / without it connected to solenoid.
Does anything change on the dash at all?

[Kev m]

The start relay is silent.  Pulled the connector off the relay and reseated it - no good.  Fuses good. Looked at clutch & side stand connections hoping to see something obvious - yeah, right.  That's about all I had time for this evening, but later in the week I'll pull the relay connector and give it a proper cleaning. Thanks again for your help.

To add to what Sign216 said
Unplug the start relay with your Voltmeter or a test light plugged into the relay socket 1 & 2 you should see 12 Volts when you press start.
The relay coil will measure about 100 Ohms.
Measure the Voltage between fuse C and chassis should be 12 Volts and only drop 1/2 Volt with start.
Measure the Voltage at the spade connector on the solenoid with / without it connected to solenoid.

I can't help but think that Sign is saying Relay and Geezer is thinking SOLENOID (the relay mounted piggyback on the starter and not the remote relay in the harness mounted under the tank).

[Kiwi_Roy]

Kev M let me know the tests I proposed are not very practical on this bike with the relays under tank
I revised the list to more easily accessed points.

Measure the Voltage between fuse C and chassis should be 12 Volts and only drop 1/2 Volt with start.
(I suspect you may see a dip in Voltage here)
Measure the Voltage at the spade connector on the solenoid without it connected to solenoid.
(should be 12 Volts)
Measure it again with the spade terminal plugged onto the solenoid, a small wire jammed in with the connector may help.
Does anything change on the dash at all?

Report back.
 

[sign216]

The relays for the "new" 1 TB engine are under the gas tank?  So...the air filter is now easier to reach, but the relays are not.
It's like two steps forward, one step back.

For those following the thread, the old 2 TB engine had relays right under the seat.  Easy to examine.  Perhaps Guzzi has greater confidence in relay longevity now.

[Kev m]

The relays for the "new" 1 TB engine are under the gas tank?  So...the air filter is now easier to reach, but the relays are not.
It's like two steps forward, one step back.

For those following the thread, the old 2 TB engine had relays right under the seat.  Easy to examine.  Perhaps Guzzi has greater confidence in relay longevity now.

Nah, I would think it's clearly 2 steps forward.

The airbox is easy to reach, and you're expected to do that at each service, if only to inspect it.

The relays are relatively easy to reach, but you do have to unbolt and at least tilt the tank upward. Fine to swap or replace them, not so easy to test the harness.

But jebus, what should you be expected to do more often:

A. Check/replace the air filter
B. Check/replace a relay
C. Test the relay harness

I'm thinking Guzzi got their priorities straight on this.

[sign216]

I'm thinking Guzzi got their priorities straight on this.

Anything that interferes with fixing a bike roadside, is incorrect engineering.

Think the gold standard; BMW airhead.

[Kev m]

Anything that interferes with fixing a bike roadside, is incorrect engineering.

Think the gold standard; BMW airhead.

That's a nice sound bite, but it's woefully too general and somewhat silly when you test it.

By that same argument most Ducatis or Harleys are superior to a BMW R-bike or Guzzi because their road side access to the clutch is so much easier.

The truth is you shouldn't HAVE to access a clutch anymore than a relay road side.

But if you DO need to access the relay, just tilt the frickin' tank, it's ONE ALLEN BOLT.

So what that you can't really stick your head under there too in order to see where you're probing with the DVOM YOU DON'T HAVE WITH YOU ANYWAY.

You can still stick your hand in there and swap the relays if you suspect one is bad.

More importantly, with this set-up you have better roadside ability to examine something like the motion of the throttle plate and how clear the intake tract is.

[jackson]

I own an earlier model (2010 V7 Classic) and this happened to me several times.  After a lot of trouble shooting, I discovered that the switch (the one when you pull the clutch that allows the power to pass to the starter was bad).  I disconnected the cable that contains the switch button and PRESTO; the bike started.  The switch is a button that engages/disengages when you pull or release the clutch.  I never liked this feature anyway (having to pull the clutch to start the bike) so I removed the cable and have never had the problem occur again.
Worth unscrewing your cable from the clutch handle (if your bike has one like mine) to see if the bike will start with it unscrewed.

[sign216]

That's a nice sound bite, but it's woefully too general and somewhat silly when you test it.

By that same argument most Ducatis or Harleys are superior to a BMW R-bike or Guzzi because their road side access to the clutch is so much easier.

Really?  A clutch replacement isn't a normal roadside repair.  When you've got a no-start situation, checking the relays is part of the steps. 

When someone says a Ducati is a superior bike to an airhead BMW for owner repairs and roadside work, well,...do I need to say more?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Really?  A clutch replacement isn't a normal roadside repair.  When you've got a no-start situation, checking the relays is part of the steps. 

When someone says a Ducati is a superior bike to an airhead BMW for owner repairs and roadside work, well,...do I need to say more?

Although this has nothing to do with the OPs problem.. <thread drift alert> A friend that had an airhead and I on my bevel duck went to Daytona in the early 90s. He gave me a bad time, saying we'd be on the side of the road all the time. We were.. a fair amount.. but it was to tinker with his Beemer.  Electrical components *inside* the engine case? What were they thinking? 

[Kev m]

Really?  A clutch replacement isn't a normal roadside repair.  When you've got a no-start situation, checking the relays is part of the steps. 

When someone says a Ducati is a superior bike to an airhead BMW for owner repairs and roadside work, well,...do I need to say more?

My point is a clutch is about as likely to be necessary, meaning RARELY.

AND as for Duc vs Beemer, it was your ridiculous standard that have the ridiculous conclusion.

 

[gorgegeezer]

Thanks for the great ideas.  As Kev said, this is the second time it's done this. The first time was 40 miles from home and, after a bit of fussing, it fixed itself (good bike).  Also, after Kev's clarification, I realize I used the wrong terminology - in my previous post when I said start relay I should have said solenoid. I haven't checked the relays under the tank yet. Thanks to you guys, I have plenty of things to check.  I'll let you know...

[vstevens]

Thanks for the great ideas.  As Kev said, this is the second time it's done this. The first time was 40 miles from home and, after a bit of fussing, it fixed itself (good bike).  Also, after Kev's clarification, I realize I used the wrong terminology - in my previous post when I said start relay I should have said solenoid. I haven't checked the relays under the tank yet. Thanks to you guys, I have plenty of things to check.  I'll let you know...

Same thing happened to my 2013 V7.  Look at the battery terminals.  They may not be seated properly.  The red rubber boot on one of the terminals was hiding a poorly seated connector on my bike.  I suggest just removing the terminals and then reconnecting them securely before anything else.

[oldbike54]

Although this has nothing to do with the OPs problem.. <thread drift alert> A friend that had an airhead and I on my bevel duck went to Daytona in the early 90s. He gave me a bad time, saying we'd be on the side of the road all the time. We were.. a fair amount.. but it was to tinker with his Beemer.  Electrical components *inside* the engine case? What were they thinking? 

 The alternator, diode board , and the ignition trigger (points or hall effect) would be the only electrical components behind a cover , which is held on by 3 bolts and takes about 2 minutes to remove . What was he tinkering with , did he think that's where the carburetors or spark plugs are on an airhead  ??? 

 Dusty

[Huzo]

Just because I did it twice this weekend (after 11k miles of ownership) you didn't perchance leave it in gear with the sidestand down?

Yep, that can happen.....Woops !

[Huzo]

I'm with Penderick - Sounds like a typical case of Startus Interuptus but what do I know?

Do you get a faint clicking noise in the relay area?

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
Measure the Voltage, fuse C to chassis while trying to start.
Measure the Voltage on the purple wire at the starter solenoid to chassis while trying to start.
Measure the Voltage at the battery negative terminal (jamb probe into the post)  to chassis while trying to start.
I don't know what you know Kiwi, but I'm guessing probably a fair bloody bit
Report back.