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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 12:31:21 PM

Title: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 12:31:21 PM
Ok so since I was read the riot act(with the best of intentions and probably saved me a lot of trouble), going to bite the bullet and get the cylinders replated my Millennium. Got a quote for $600 including sending the pistons and them checking the piston fitting afterward and ring spacing... so not bad.

Will post every step, screw up, bungle and win here for reference for those that come after.

Got the pan off to check for chrome. Doesn't look like much of anything but a few tiny bits. Anyone with better eyes please take a look... anything I should be worried about?

Working on valve covers an beyond now... so we'll see how the cyls look inside.


(https://i.ibb.co/SnqGgGR/IMG-1278.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SnqGgGR)

(https://i.ibb.co/3MBFwC0/IMG-1277.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3MBFwC0)

(https://i.ibb.co/yq0mKzq/IMG-1279.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yq0mKzq)




Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 12:45:26 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/4YFGy98/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4YFGy98)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Dave Swanson on June 20, 2022, 12:48:02 PM
Excellent move! 

My V7 Sport was my first Guzzi 20 years ago.  I was told to promptly replace the cylinders with Gilardonis, which were available then.  I really didn't have the budget for it, but knuckled under and took the best advice I ever received on the forum.  When I removed my barrels the bores looked like new - the bike only had 900 miles.  When I looked at the hard chrome surface under magnification there was evidence of micro pits that had popped off.  My 900 miles V7 Sport engine block would have been turned into scrap metal if I hadn't listened. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 20, 2022, 12:48:26 PM
I've gone that route on at least eight Guzzis now and Millennium has always done an excellent job, no issues whatsoever. Do measure your pistons carefully and compare them to the specs. published in the factory manual. Pay particular attention to ring groove widths.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 01:03:13 PM
I've gone that route on at least eight Guzzis now and Millennium has always done an excellent job, no issues whatsoever. Do measure your pistons carefully and compare them to the specs. published in the factory manual. Pay particular attention to ring groove widths.

Will do!! Good I idea to make sure they're not a mess before sending off.

12k miles, only 1k since its been resurrected and runs great so fingers crossed all is well.



Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 01:08:11 PM
Ok so valve covers off… gotta go get a 1” socket.

My 14 year old daughter is becoming the best assistant ever… so turns out it’ll be a good bonding experience.


(https://i.ibb.co/d4VC5kY/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d4VC5kY)

(https://i.ibb.co/VvSZtY3/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VvSZtY3)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 01:16:48 PM
Was considering Gilardoni first... but can't find them anywhere and no indication of them returning any time soon.

Found these... they seem to be the same but without the valve relief that the Sport has. The company says they will add it for me if I shoot some pics of my OEM Pistons.

I think I'd rather stick with the originals, if they're in good shape. But if not, does this seem like a viable option?

https://gtmotocycles.com/products/gilardoni-piston-cylinder-set-82-5mm?_pos=1&_sid=d69fd5431&_ss=r

Unless someone knows where a set specifically for the V7 Sport is hiding. ;)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: czakky82 on June 20, 2022, 01:22:20 PM
That’s what I’m running.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 01:38:30 PM
That’s what I’m running.

So you ordered those and had them machine in the relief or you don’t have a sport?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: guzzista on June 20, 2022, 02:18:45 PM
If your pistons don't meet specs on the ring groove widths as Charlie mentions, you could get a set of new pistons with rings to match the Millenium Nikasil job. Maybe other folks who have used those Asso pistons can pitch in with their feedback

https://www.ebay.com/itm/173694313413?hash=item2870fce3c5:g:BlMAAOSwKphcFoKz
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 20, 2022, 02:43:20 PM
Ok so valve covers off… gotta go get a 1” socket.

My 14 year old daughter is becoming the best assistant ever… so turns out it’ll be a good bonding experience.


(https://i.ibb.co/d4VC5kY/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d4VC5kY)

(https://i.ibb.co/VvSZtY3/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VvSZtY3)

1" is close but no cigar. 26 mm.

Was considering Gilardoni first... but can't find them anywhere and no indication of them returning any time soon.

Found these... they seem to be the same but without the valve relief that the Sport has. The company says they will add it for me if I shoot some pics of my OEM Pistons.

I think I'd rather stick with the originals, if they're in good shape. But if not, does this seem like a viable option?

https://gtmotocycles.com/products/gilardoni-piston-cylinder-set-82-5mm?_pos=1&_sid=d69fd5431&_ss=r

Unless someone knows where a set specifically for the V7 Sport is hiding. ;)

They look like Ambassador sets, which are actually 83 mm and have a slightly lower compression ratio (9.2 vs. 9.6 IIRC). The extra 8 cc of displacement may offset the lower compression some. The piston assembly weight may be heavier than the original piston assemblies as well. I'd stick to your plan to have the cylinders replated. Have you sourced new rings yet? 

If your pistons don't meet specs on the ring groove widths as Charlie mentions, you could get a set of new pistons with rings to match the Millenium Nikasil job. Maybe other folks who have used those Asso pistons can pitch in with their feedback

https://www.ebay.com/itm/173694313413?hash=item2870fce3c5:g:BlMAAOSwKphcFoKz

Those pistons have a very high dome, higher compression will likely result.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: MTHaas on June 20, 2022, 02:51:13 PM
I did my 67 V700 a few years ago...twice. I sent my OE pistons and Jugs to Millenium with a quick turn around. While inspecting the finished product I found tiny pits in the coating. I asked about the pits and whoever responded claimed they were OK. Held extra oil for lubrication. I reassembled and ran for several months. All was well except the guy(me) who put it together miss located the O rings in the oil channels.
Popped the heads to discover both pistons and jugs wiped. Yes the ring gap was correct from multi checking on assembly. Lucked into some NOS pistons, sent it all back to Millinium. This time coating was solid through and through. Living happily last few years with the oil passages dutifully weeping. This bike gets out for weekend errands, camping trips and good old fashion tank torching joy rides.

(https://i.ibb.co/31B9G75/Guzzi-pond.jpg) (https://ibb.co/31B9G75)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 03:12:13 PM
I did my 67 V700 a few years ago...twice. I sent my OE pistons and Jugs to Millenium with a quick turn around. While inspecting the finished product I found tiny pits in the coating. I asked about the pits and whoever responded claimed they were OK. Held extra oil for lubrication. I reassembled and ran for several months. All was well except the guy(me) who put it together miss located the O rings in the oil channels.
Popped the heads to discover both pistons and jugs wiped. Yes the ring gap was correct from multi checking on assembly. Lucked into some NOS pistons, sent it all back to Millinium. This time coating was solid through and through. Living happily last few years with the oil passages dutifully weeping. This bike gets out for weekend errands, camping trips and good old fashion tank torching joy rides.

(https://i.ibb.co/31B9G75/Guzzi-pond.jpg) (https://ibb.co/31B9G75)


Thanks for all the info! I may hit you up when I put mine back together to make sure I don’t make the same mistake, if that’s ok?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Dave Swanson on June 20, 2022, 03:29:31 PM
+1 with Charlie, as long as you are buying a socket get the correct metric size.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Cam3512 on June 20, 2022, 03:44:17 PM
At the risk of getting flamed, again.  While the cylinders are out to Millennium, send the heads out to a machinist to be reworked.  It’s already apart.  Your top end will thank you!

Cam
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 04:33:44 PM
At the risk of getting flamed, again.  While the cylinders are out to Millennium, send the heads out to a machinist to be reworked.  It’s already apart.  Your top end will thank you!

Cam

Lol I’ll look into that!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Canuck750 on June 20, 2022, 04:38:40 PM
At the risk of getting flamed, again.  While the cylinders are out to Millennium, send the heads out to a machinist to be reworked.  It’s already apart.  Your top end will thank you!

Cam

What Cam said !!!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Moparnut72 on June 20, 2022, 05:21:58 PM
It may not apply here but I would like to throw this procedure out for discussion. After I retired I worked for a couple of years for a small business that overhauled radial aircraft engines. We sent cylinders out for chrome plating. Since replacement pistons were not available for most engines due to FAA regulations, but that's another story. So I would measure the pistons we had and send those measurements to the plater. They would grind the chrome to fit the pistons. Is that something that can be done here?
kk
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 05:46:04 PM
It may not apply here but I would like to throw this procedure out for discussion. After I retired I worked for a couple of years for a small business that overhauled radial aircraft engines. We sent cylinders out for chrome plating. Since replacement pistons were not available for most engines due to FAA regulations, but that's another story. So I would measure the pistons we had and send those measurements to the plater. They would grind the chrome to fit the pistons. Is that something that can be done here?
kk

Interesting! Actually I’m sending the pistons along with the cylinders. As long as they’re ok they will fit I every font for me. I think checking the piston ring grooves etc is to make sure chrome hasn’t screwed the pistons etc too bad if at all.

Also assume I should swap out the rod bearings while they’re off. Right?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Canuck750 on June 20, 2022, 05:53:35 PM
It may not apply here but I would like to throw this procedure out for discussion. After I retired I worked for a couple of years for a small business that overhauled radial aircraft engines. We sent cylinders out for chrome plating. Since replacement pistons were not available for most engines due to FAA regulations, but that's another story. So I would measure the pistons we had and send those measurements to the plater. They would grind the chrome to fit the pistons. Is that something that can be done here?
kk

Millenium's Canadian liscenced shop ground the nikisill coating to match the pistons I sent them.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 06:16:26 PM
Millenium's Canadian liscenced shop ground the nikisill coating to match the pistons I sent them.

Yeah that’s what they said on the phone. That if I sent the pistons with they would fit everything for me.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on June 20, 2022, 06:45:48 PM
Yeah that’s what they said on the phone. That if I sent the pistons with they would fit everything for me.

Yep. They are top notch, and I'm happy to see you going this way. I know.. the cold light of reality can be like a slap in the face, but you will be glad you did.  :smiley:
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 20, 2022, 07:04:25 PM

Also assume I should swap out the rod bearings while they’re off. Right?

At that low of miles, it shouldn't be necessary. But, it wouldn't hurt to remove one to check the bearing condition. You could check clearances with Plastigauge as well. Access is a bit of pain though - removing the oil pipe helps, but the oil pickup is still sort of in the way. If the rod bolts are the early type with lock tabs for the nuts it gets a bit more difficult (trying to unbend the old tabs and bend the new ones).
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 07:40:52 PM
At that low of miles, it shouldn't be necessary. But, it wouldn't hurt to remove one to check the bearing condition. You could check clearances with Plastigauge as well. Access is a bit of pain though - removing the oil pipe helps, but the oil pickup is still sort of in the way. If the rod bolts are the early type with lock tabs for the nuts it gets a bit more difficult (trying to unbend the old tabs and bend the new ones).

I was thinking I’d have to remove the rod bolts to take the pistons out and get the pins out to remove the rods. Pardon my naivety but I can get the pins out and pistons off with the rods still connected to the crank?

And thanks on the heads up on the tabs... I'd have spent hours wondering why I could not find a socket to fit. :laugh:

Also... without checking the rod bearings and the crank where they reside, what would be my best indication of any damage from chrome off the cylinders. Still advent gotten in them yet to see how the walls look.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: brider on June 20, 2022, 07:50:18 PM
Was considering Gilardoni first... but can't find them anywhere and no indication of them returning any time soon.

What happened to Gilardoni?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Tom H on June 20, 2022, 07:53:01 PM
You can remove the pistons with the rods still bolted to the crank. Many ways to do it, from "reasonably" force tapping them out with a socket to a wrist pin tool. I have always "carefully" tapped them out with a socket and "lightish" hammer.

Always wanted to get a wrist pin puller like from the old days. A round band and a screw like shown in the manual, don't seem to be available anymore.

Your doing great!!!!! :thumb: :thumb:

Once over the costs involved, you'll have a bike you can ride for 40+ years of normal use!

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: moto-uno on June 20, 2022, 07:54:56 PM
  YES , Peter
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 20, 2022, 08:07:16 PM
You can remove the pistons with the rods still bolted to the crank. Many ways to do it, from "reasonably" force tapping them out with a socket to a wrist pin tool. I have always "carefully" tapped them out with a socket and "lightish" hammer.

Always wanted to get a wrist pin puller like from the old days. A round band and a screw like shown in the manual, don't seem to be available anymore.

Your doing great!!!!! :thumb: :thumb:

Once over the costs involved, you'll have a bike you can ride for 40+ years of normal use!

Tom

Thanks for the pep talk!!!

Costs aren't the concern(not like I'm loaded but with the numbers this involves we'll be ok). Just want to make sure when we get it back together it works!

In South Florida it's actually the off season(hot as Hades) which is why I bit the bullet now. Just want it back in action and better than ever by the end of summer. But in no rush, just want it right. This is my forever bike(and now my daughter's too).

Thanks again for your encouragement and to everyone for their welcome tips and experience. Hopefully this thread, and everyones valuable contributions, will be a resource for others long after Fabrizio(as my daughter named the bike) is back on the road.

More progress and pics when I get a 1" socket tomorrow!!



Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Tom H on June 20, 2022, 09:07:51 PM
No no, as Charlie said, 26mm. With that said, I use the same as my axle nut size 27mm. Seems to work perfect for both.

And congrats on the family bonding over a bike!

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 21, 2022, 12:24:12 AM
No no, as Charlie said, 26mm. With that said, I use the same as my axle nut size 27mm. Seems to work perfect for both.

And congrats on the family bonding over a bike!

Tom

That’s right. All metric. Thanks!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: moto-uno on June 21, 2022, 01:04:50 AM
  And if the metric isn't available , 1 1/16" would probably do . Any pawn shop should have a selection :) . Peter
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on June 21, 2022, 02:58:00 AM
You can remove the pistons with the rods still bolted to the crank. Many ways to do it, from "reasonably" force tapping them out with a socket to a wrist pin tool. I have always "carefully" tapped them out with a socket and "lightish" hammer.


Tom

Many a rod bent from hammering pins out, weird problems ensue
Heat is your friend, just electric heat gun, push pin out with fingers
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on June 21, 2022, 06:46:46 AM
^^^^^ this
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Scout63 on June 21, 2022, 06:49:17 AM
This is a great thread with good information. When my v7 finally comes out of storage and onto the lift, the first order of business will be sending the cylinders off to Millennium.  I ordered new rings from Stein Dinse per Charlie’s recommendation.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: cliffrod on June 21, 2022, 07:49:24 AM
When I did my V7 Sport cylinders, I was really broke and couldn’t afford issues.  But I had trouble with at least 2 head gasket failures.  So I extended the time between stages of torquing head bolts from 10-15 min to a few hours.  It made a big difference in how much more gain I produced with each stage of torquing.  Then I rechecked torque after getting engine to temp and cool-down.  No more failures.

The other advice btdt I would offer is to err on the side of caution if you see any significant chrome flaking-related damage in the bottom end.    These cranks are originally nitrided or surface hardened, so the journals should have no surface imperfections.  If any chrome is embedded in the bearing shells or there are any noteworthy lines in their surface, know that the debris which  produced them had to pass through the oil pump to reach the crank bearing to make the damage..….   Having that stuff embedded in the walls of the oil pump to come loose later can negate whatever casual cleaning you do at this point.    Having to turn the crank and lots more later is not cool.

I never checked my rod bearings or anything else when I did my cylinders.  Being new to Guzzi, I had no idea and no one available & familiar with the chrome bore issues at that time to advise me otherwise.  Back then, many people still weren’t convinced it was as big a problem because their bikes were still just fine.  It was still a “can fail” issue vs the “will fail” issue it is now.

Using the original pistons has much to do with the condition of the lands between the piston rings.  If there is evidence of fatigue, that’s where problems can easily occur.  I removed and installed pistons with rods still installed in engine.  Not difficult.  As noted, gentle heat makes it simple.

Hopefully things will look good inside your engine.  But if they don’t, they won’t heal.  Like Charlie said, it becomes really $$$$ to replace everything in there after the fact.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 21, 2022, 08:47:26 AM
What happened to Gilardoni?

Nothing has happened to them, but understandably, supplying cylinders kits for 50 year old Guzzis isn't a high priority for them. Once in while they run off a batch, but usually just Eldo kits. They're doing Ambo kits less all the time and haven't made V7 Sports sets for a few years. It's been at least a decade since they last did a batch of V700 kits.

You can remove the pistons with the rods still bolted to the crank. Many ways to do it, from "reasonably" force tapping them out with a socket to a wrist pin tool. I have always "carefully" tapped them out with a socket and "lightish" hammer.

Always wanted to get a wrist pin puller like from the old days. A round band and a screw like shown in the manual, don't seem to be available anymore.



I simple but effective piston pin puller can be whipped up at the local hardware store. PVC pipe nipple, long carriage bolt, large flat washer and nut. As Martin wrote, warming the piston is a huge help.


(https://i.ibb.co/tLfF3LD/wrist-pin-puller.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tLfF3LD)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 21, 2022, 12:36:33 PM
When I did my V7 Sport cylinders, I was really broke and couldn’t afford issues.  But I had trouble with at least 2 head gasket failures.  So I extended the time between stages of torquing head bolts from 10-15 min to a few hours.  It made a big difference in how much more gain I produced with each stage of torquing.  Then I rechecked torque after getting engine to temp and cool-down.  No more failures.

The other advice btdt I would offer is to err on the side of caution if you see any significant chrome flaking-related damage in the bottom end.    These cranks are originally nitrided or surface hardened, so the journals should have no surface imperfections.  If any chrome is embedded in the bearing shells or there are any noteworthy lines in their surface, know that the debris which  produced them had to pass through the oil pump to reach the crank bearing to make the damage..….   Having that stuff embedded in the walls of the oil pump to come loose later can negate whatever casual cleaning you do at this point.    Having to turn the crank and lots more later is not cool.

I never checked my rod bearings or anything else when I did my cylinders.  Being new to Guzzi, I had no idea and no one available & familiar with the chrome bore issues at that time to advise me otherwise.  Back then, many people still weren’t convinced it was as big a problem because their bikes were still just fine.  It was still a “can fail” issue vs the “will fail” issue it is now.

Using the original pistons has much to do with the condition of the lands between the piston rings.  If there is evidence of fatigue, that’s where problems can easily occur.  I removed and installed pistons with rods still installed in engine.  Not difficult.  As noted, gentle heat makes it simple.

Hopefully things will look good inside your engine.  But if they don’t, they won’t heal.  Like Charlie said, it becomes really $$$$ to replace everything in there after the fact.

Yeah not sure how I can check the bottom end without at least taking the piston rods off. So we’ll see. So far I the pan and “filter” no visible chrome shards so keeping ju fingers crossed. Also with only 12k original miles, aside from chrome damage if any, I would assume the pistons should not be worn. But we’ll see. I’ll definitely be careful and patient with the torque wrench. What’s the recommended torque on those?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 21, 2022, 12:42:33 PM
What’s the recommended torque on those?

On what specifically? Head nuts? Rod nuts? Head nuts - 29-32 ft. lbs. is the factory spec., I use 32. Rod nut torque depends on what rod bolts/nuts you have - early with lock plates under the nuts or late with self-locking nuts.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 21, 2022, 02:50:37 PM
Ok grabbed the right socket and got those 26mm caps off... but having a bit of a struggle with the 10mm hex bolts underneath. Could not get enough leverage on my good Allen wrench and don't want to strip them (nightmare!) so will get a 10mm hex socket and give it a shot tomorrow. Other than that, any tips on loosening those?

And yeah Charlie, meant the heads... thank you!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Cam3512 on June 21, 2022, 03:01:57 PM
Ok grabbed the right socket and got those 26mm caps off... but having a bit of a struggle with the 10mm hex bolts underneath. Could not get enough leverage on my good Allen wrench and don't want to strip them (nightmare!) so will get a 10mm hex socket and give it a shot tomorrow. Other than that, any tips on loosening those?

And yeah Charlie, meant the heads... thank you!!

It’s dry under those caps.  When doing a head retorque I give a shot of WD40 down into the hex nut so my socket doesn’t get stuck down there.  I know you’re removing the heads, but for future reference. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 21, 2022, 03:21:41 PM
It’s dry under those caps.  When doing a head retorque I give a shot of WD40 down into the hex nut so my socket doesn’t get stuck down there.  I know you’re removing the heads, but for future reference.

Yeah I was wondering... I'll shoot some down there now this way when I get the right socket tomorrow hopefully it'll be a little freed up.

Thanks!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 21, 2022, 03:33:27 PM
The cylinder stud often comes out with the nut, but that's no big deal. There should be a washer under the nut, usually stuck to/in the head.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 22, 2022, 06:54:36 PM
Didn't get to do much today but did get the right socket and got those nuts off no problem... thankfully. Hoping to get a bunch done tomorrow.

Thanks everyone again!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 23, 2022, 04:33:21 PM
Ok so got one off today... and there is a chunk of Chrome missing right at the top. Might get to the other tonight but going away until Sunday so might be then.

Since I have not seen any of this piece of chrome in the pan or elsewhere... how do I know if my engine is torn up?

And we'll see if any is missing from the other as well.


(https://i.ibb.co/J2bG9vm/IMG-1297.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J2bG9vm) (https://i.ibb.co/9V4yWtt/IMG-1296.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9V4yWtt) (https://i.ibb.co/d5mpXt1/IMG-1295.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d5mpXt1) (https://i.ibb.co/QfZrBFT/IMG-1294.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QfZrBFT) (https://i.ibb.co/chQWCpc/IMG-1293.jpg) (https://ibb.co/chQWCpc) (https://i.ibb.co/9tdzRfh/IMG-1292.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9tdzRfh) (https://i.ibb.co/YyQ1rPZ/IMG-1290.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YyQ1rPZ) (https://i.ibb.co/Mst4PdJ/IMG-1289.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Mst4PdJ)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: cliffrod on June 23, 2022, 05:09:31 PM
I know this isn’t the result you wanted but this is why we rang the bell in no uncertain terms.  I am really glad you didn’t just decide we all needed to shut up and left the forum to ride in peace.   That peace wouldn’t have lasted long.

As far as how far to go inspecting your engine, that’s one of those personal decisions & judgment calls that you’ll have to make.   I was completely ignorant about looking into the rest of my engine-  I just swapped cylinders & pistons and hit the road.  So I paid the FULL price- literally and figuratively.    You can check things and if nothing is bad, costs in parts, gaskets and seals won’t be that much.  The time spent off the road is always a drag.  But you may be happier in the long run knowing that all those 50 yr old seals and such are not going to be a never-ending source of aggravating new leaks when you can least afford to deal with them.  You’ll also know your bike much better and that’s never a bad thing.

Hang in there.

Edit- meant to add with the chrome loss being at the top of cylinder and generally above the rings, the majority of lost chrome probably went out through the exhaust.  It’s tougher for it to migrate past the rings and into the bottom end without leaving some obvious damage to pistons, walls, etc.  Losses at or below the cylinder wall area where the rings travel are the real  danger to the rest of the engine.   
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 23, 2022, 05:29:02 PM
I know this isn’t the result you wanted but this is why we rang the bell in no uncertain terms.  I am really glad you didn’t just decide we all needed to shut up and left the forum to ride in peace.   That peace wouldn’t have lasted long.

As far as how far to go inspecting your engine, that’s one of those personal decisions & judgment calls that you’ll have to make.   I was completely ignorant about looking into the rest of my engine-  I just swapped cylinders & pistons and hit the road.  So I paid the FULL price- literally and figuratively.    You can check things and if nothing is bad, costs in parts, gaskets and seals won’t be that much.  The time spent off the road is always a drag.  But you may be happier in the long run knowing that all those 50 yr old seals and such are not going to be a never-ending source of aggravating new leaks when you can least afford to deal with them.  You’ll also know your bike much better and that’s never a bad thing.

Hang in there.

Edit- meant to add with the chrome loss being at the top of cylinder and generally above the rings, the majority of lost chrome probably went out through the exhaust.  It’s tougher for it to migrate past the rings and into the bottom end without leaving some obvious damage to pistons, walls, etc.  Losses at or below the cylinder wall area where the rings travel are the real  danger to the rest of the engine.

Well look at you adding some good news there at the end!!  :grin:

I really appreciate it. Yeah would have been great to see nice perfect cylinders under there, but at least I'm glad I took it apart. And I know I could have reacted better at being reminded of the risk... but glad I gave in and just did the right thing. And am glad that I was prodded in no uncertain terms.

I was wondering where the heck a chunk like that could have gone... and out the exhaust definitely make sense.

As far as tearing into the whole engine... I might be I over my head. I was a certified GM mechanic in my youth, but its been a while. But with all the manuals and this forum, maybe!

I do have to say, on another positive note... these damn things(knock on wood) ARE really easy to work on, like everyone says. With the orientation, transmission, shaft drive, pushrods, and the overall build, it's like 1/4 of a small block. And, considering its 50 years old, damn well put together. Everything is robust and over engineered. On my Ducati I stripped two hex bolts just installing a tail tidy. Nice work Moto Guzzi.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: cliffrod on June 23, 2022, 06:36:48 PM
These early engines require attention to detail but are very straightforward to address.  If you can follow instructions and work on more modern engines, you should be fine- these are much like part of a regular V8 engine.   they’re actually made to worked on without tearing the entire machine apart every time versus the huge PIA that many other bikes are.   I’ve often wondered if the origins of this engine configuration for military applications included an edict of simplicity to service without removal from the chassis.

Reading about later Guzzi v-twin engines makes me happy to stay with the old, outdated stuff (….). Lots of good advice available online now, which helps even more.

Check the other cylinder, then probably pull at least 1 rod cap to check bearing/crank and go from there. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 23, 2022, 06:56:35 PM
If that bike was in my shop, and I opened it up and found the cylinder in that condition, it would get a complete engine rebuild. Lots of chrome has been scraped into the oil and the only way to clean it all out is by tearing it down completely.

No good news to add at the end., sorry.  :wink:
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: guzzisteve on June 23, 2022, 07:30:48 PM
Definitely check the oil pump.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on June 23, 2022, 07:37:40 PM
Sorry.. but I, too, will pile on. Guzzis are very easy to overhaul, and I would do it. It's not a major expense if you can do it yourself, and you will know what you have.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 23, 2022, 08:40:17 PM
If that bike was in my shop, and I opened it up and found the cylinder in that condition, it would get a complete engine rebuild. Lots of chrome has been scraped into the oil and the only way to clean it all out is by tearing it down completely.

No good news to add at the end., sorry.  :wink:

We'll see. But as was said, it was at the top... and no sign of it scraping past the rings... so how could it be in the oil?

I'll see what the other one looks like. A complete rebuild is likely beyond my ability and nowhere nearby to do it.

In addition to the cyls and piston rings, which Millennium is handling... It would be main and rod bearings, check cam and crank for damage. Anything else?





Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: lucian on June 23, 2022, 08:50:10 PM
I find heating the pistons underside with a heat gun makes the pins push out easy .
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 23, 2022, 08:53:58 PM
We'll see. But as was said, it was at the top... and no sign of it scraping past the rings... so how could it be in the oil?

I'll see what the other one looks like. A complete rebuild is likely beyond my ability and nowhere nearby to do it.

In addition to the cyls and piston rings, which Millennium is handling... It would be main and rod bearings, check cam and crank for damage. Anything else?

In the fourth photo, it appears that the chrome is worn thin about half the way down the cylinder, what I call a "starry night". Lots of light colored specks showing though the darker surface. All of that chrome would have gone into the oil.

As was mentioned by guzzisteve, check the oil pump for damage too.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 23, 2022, 09:03:18 PM
In the fourth photo, it appears that the chrome is worn thin about half the way down the cylinder, what I call a "starry night". Lots of light colored specks showing though the darker surface. All of that chrome would have gone into the oil.

As was mention by guzzisteve, check the oil pump for damage too.

So I guess I keep disassembling and hope I can get it back together. If I can't I'll ship it all to you in Maryland, lol.

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: cliffrod on June 23, 2022, 09:07:21 PM
But I also said-


As far as how far to go inspecting your engine, that’s one of those personal decisions & judgment calls that you’ll have to make.   I was completely ignorant about looking into the rest of my engine-  I just swapped cylinders & pistons and hit the road.  So I paid the FULL price- literally and figuratively.    You can check things and if nothing is bad, costs in parts, gaskets and seals won’t be that much.

And earlier, I also mentioned concerns about checking the oil pump for any chrome-related issues like Steve just mentioned.

My V7 Sport ran great for a while after I didn’t do a complete service when I swapped the cylinders.  Then it didn’t & it started making fatal noises.  Not cool.  Then it cost a gob of money for parts that were lots less $$ in the 90’s than they are now. 

The smart money (aka Charlie’s opinion) is to do the whole thing.  Then you’ll be done and know what you have.  The other end of the spectrum is to do less than the whole thing and hope for the best.  I wasn’t even hoping for the best.  I was naive enough to think I had fixed things.  I was wrong and paid for it. 

Right now,  I’ve got this Guzzi tractor here with an old Eldo 850 engine and my V700 Corsa Record project.  Both are chrome cylinder engines that turn over fine and would likely run as is with nominal work.  More than one non-guzzi person has said “aw hell, quit worrying so much.  That’s too cool to not just crank it and see what happens.  It’ll probably be fine.”  Nope.  Until I’ve been completely through them, I won’t be starting them.   I know how bad it can go.   That’s where I am on the “judgment call” I mentioned earlier.    Maybe the cylinders will be fine and going all through it will be overkill.  But then I’ll know what I have and know that I’ll be saving money in the big picture. 

That’s simply the reality of these early Vtwin chrome bore Moto Guzzi engines.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 23, 2022, 09:12:30 PM
So as far as the remainder of the rebuild. What is the best manual to have or resource online. Any step by step? We managed to get this far with the original shop manual supplemented by a later Chilton for different but similar models.

That original one is very cryptic at best, lol.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 23, 2022, 09:13:40 PM
So I guess I keep disassembling and hope I can get it back together. If I can't I'll ship it all to you in Maryland, lol.

You might find this helpful: https://www.thisoldtractor.com/projects_roy_smith.html
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 23, 2022, 09:29:00 PM
You might find this helpful: https://www.thisoldtractor.com/projects_roy_smith.html

Thanks... found this too. Its in German but can add translated subtitles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs4HAhhPKH4

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Scout63 on June 23, 2022, 09:30:11 PM
I’ll add my 2c here as well.  I found the Guzzi motor (1979 G5) remarkably simple to rebuild and this forum an excellent resource.  I used a Haynes manual and the Guzzi factory shop manual and parts book. Gearboxes are more complex, wheel building an acquired skill, and crabbing the frame a fiddly affair first time through. All that being said, I would strip that Sport down to the crank and not only make sure everything is ok, but also have the chance to check and renew oil seals, the top end  the sludge trap, clutch, swingarm bearings, unjoint and carrier bearing and wheel bearings.  The model is a desirable classic worth preserving right, and your relationship with the bike will be solid once you are done.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: cliffrod on June 23, 2022, 09:38:05 PM
From 1992/93 to the past 2-3 yrs, I only had a reprint of the factory parts manual, service manual and a Haynes manual for my V7 Sport.   Resources like ThisOldTractor, Guzziology, WG and such are all relatively new to me. 

Of all the times to be able to get good help & advice to go through an old Guzzi like yours, I don’t think it’s ever been easier or faster to get viable help to do it properly.  Not a bunch of urban legend stuff.  It’s a lot different than it used to be.

I get the more money and time angles.  Just hang in there. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 24, 2022, 06:42:43 AM
Thank you everyone. I can say, the wealth of responses here so far have been amazing and humbling. It's like living in a neighborhood full of Guzzis. I really do appreciate it more than you can imagine. I have a family and work and life so this will take a while but I'll go thru it step by step. My daughter has been enthusiastic and very helpful. So it'll be great for us both... and the bike.

Like I said at the onset... hopefully this thread could become a resource for those that follow. There is already so much great and useful information here.

Going away for the weekend so hopefully next week I'll finish getting the cylinders off, check the piston measurements, and ship them all off to Millennium.

I'll keep the pics and, I'm sure, questions, coming.

Thank you all again!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: s1120 on June 24, 2022, 07:19:32 AM
You know ill jump in here and join the crew. I mean the big money your already spending. Getting those juggs done is a good hit. There is really not a lot to the old Guzzi twins. Having most of my experience in US built V8's there is some fiddley parts to them, but really they are pretty stone simple. If you can follow a manual, and know when to stop and ask questions, anyone thats been into any engine at all should have no major issues. Worse case your labor was for nothing, and you saved yourself from turning it into a big lump of worn out alloy.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: cliffrod on June 24, 2022, 08:01:05 AM
My almost 19 yr old daughter could care less about my bikes in general, Guzzis included.  She’s btdt and seen enough.    If your daughter finds greater interest, especially in Moto Guzzi, she might like this Moto Guzzi Portraits video about “The Girl by the Lake”-

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trX0KdIWR60 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trX0KdIWR60)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Dave Swanson on June 24, 2022, 10:32:32 AM
When you have done a proper job bringing the bike back to life after following all the great advice here you will have a truly special motorcycle.  I have always thought the 73  V7 Sport is more desirable than the 73 Ducati 750SS.  For some reason the $$ market fawns on the 750SS and I have no idea why it does to such extreme.  The V7 Sport has rarity, performance, and style!   


(https://i.postimg.cc/0jdQMf7J/1979.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sGxyb56V)


Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 24, 2022, 08:55:51 PM
When you have done a proper job bringing the bike back to life after following all the great advice here you will have a truly special motorcycle.  I have always thought the 73  V7 Sport is more desirable than the 73 Ducati 750SS.  For some reason the $$ market fawns on the 750SS and I have no idea why it does to such extreme.  The V7 Sport has rarity, performance, and style!   


(https://i.postimg.cc/0jdQMf7J/1979.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sGxyb56V)

Wow that's a beauty!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 24, 2022, 08:58:35 PM
My almost 19 yr old daughter could care less about my bikes in general, Guzzis included.  She’s btdt and seen enough.    If your daughter finds greater interest, especially in Moto Guzzi, she might like this Moto Guzzi Portraits video about “The Girl by the Lake”-

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trX0KdIWR60 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trX0KdIWR60)

That's great! Thanks I'll show her.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Don G on June 26, 2022, 09:19:09 AM
I have many years experience in the area of automotive repair, especially in engine rebuilding. If this was my engine I would start out by pulling it completely apart and assessing the total condition of all the components. At the moment you are focusing on only one area that needs attention, sure the cylinders need to be repaired, but how about everything else? You are starting in the middle and that is a mistake, take the engine out and strip it down, you may find that it needs everything or if you are lucky, very little. In any event you should pull the crank and clean the sludge trap, while there measure the journal dimensions etc., inspect the oil pump as well as the cam and followers and be prepared to spend some cash.   DonG
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: blackcat on June 26, 2022, 10:16:03 AM
I have many years experience in the area of automotive repair, especially in engine rebuilding. If this was my engine I would start out by pulling it completely apart and assessing the total condition of all the components. At the moment you are focusing on only one area that needs attention, sure the cylinders need to be repaired, but how about everything else? You are starting in the middle and that is a mistake, take the engine out and strip it down, you may find that it needs everything or if you are lucky, very little. In any event you should pull the crank and clean the sludge trap, while there measure the journal dimensions etc., inspect the oil pump as well as the cam and followers and be prepared to spend some cash.   DonG

This.

I’d install a P3 cam and a pair of 36mm carbs.  Easy to change back for re-sale purposes but a better ride imo.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: czakky82 on June 26, 2022, 10:42:36 AM
I’ve got a gnarly cam and 36mm manifolds.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Cam3512 on June 26, 2022, 10:49:10 AM
I don’t know, that might be overkill for the Sport’s 750.  Mine does just fine with the stock cam and VHB 30’s.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: cliffrod on June 26, 2022, 11:29:56 AM
The two World Record bikes (each approx 750 cc displacement) had SS1-38 carbs, with only intent to run WOT top speed.  The 850 LeMans have bigger valves and more to fully exploit 36mm carbs. I would expect 36 carbs on a relatively stock small valve 750cc V7 Sport street bike to be overkill and more trouble than benefit in regular traffic situations. 

The VHB 30 carbs do hit the wall, but not until you get into 100+mph range. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 26, 2022, 02:26:37 PM
While I’m managing to get these things off and haven’t sent to Millenium, if anyone has a source or suggestion on how to get a Gilardoni set I’d appreciate it. It would be easier and less to worry about and measure as far as the old pistons.

I have many years experience in the area of automotive repair, especially in engine rebuilding. If this was my engine I would start out by pulling it completely apart and assessing the total condition of all the components. At the moment you are focusing on only one area that needs attention, sure the cylinders need to be repaired, but how about everything else? You are starting in the middle and that is a mistake, take the engine out and strip it down, you may find that it needs everything or if you are lucky, very little. In any event you should pull the crank and clean the sludge trap, while there measure the journal dimensions etc., inspect the oil pump as well as the cam and followers and be prepared to spend some cash.   DonG

Very low miles and almost none since it was brought back to life after sitting… so hoping for the former. And I may reach out to you if that’s ok once I get it apart to see what I should be measuring and what those dimensions should be. Thanks
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 26, 2022, 04:53:36 PM
Do you have a shop manual? https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/workshop_manual_v7sport_750s_850t.pdf
Piston specs are on (pdf) page 21 of 135, paper manual page 19. The drawings of how to measure and dimensions is on 98 & 99 of 135.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Don G on June 26, 2022, 05:01:39 PM
As for specs and dimensions, the factory work shop manual can be found online or purchased in book form yet, take your components to a reputable engine shop and have them looked at, supply the specs with the parts. As for hoping that the internals are mint due to low miles is only hoping, I have seen my own 1974 Eldorado with 5000 original miles on it needing crank bearings, wrist pin bushings, couple of followers and of course cylinders. By the look of your cylinders it will likely have some oil pump wear, only way to tell is take it down and inspect, because of the chrome being hard and the bearings and crankcase soft,(no oil filter) the chrome and dirt particles imbed themselves in the soft surfaces and wear the shite out of the crank, cam journals, oil pump etc. I have had a fair number of these apart and seen the carnage.... DonG
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 26, 2022, 08:12:48 PM
Do you have a shop manual? https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/workshop_manual_v7sport_750s_850t.pdf
Piston specs are on (pdf) page 21 of 135, paper manual page 19. The drawings of how to measure and dimensions is on 98 & 99 of 135.

Yup... I actually have the paper one(and owners manual) from the original owner and did download the pdf as well. Thanks for the pages to find the info.

I make, like suggested later, take the parts to a shop and pay them to check them.

Thank you again!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: huub on June 27, 2022, 06:17:39 AM
The two World Record bikes (each approx 750 cc displacement) had SS1-38 carbs, with only intent to run WOT top speed.  The 850 LeMans have bigger valves and more to fully exploit 36mm carbs. I would expect 36 carbs on a relatively stock small valve 750cc V7 Sport street bike to be overkill and more trouble than benefit in regular traffic situations. 

The VHB 30 carbs do hit the wall, but not until you get into 100+mph range.

i had 36 mm PHF on a basically stock V7sport , and it did not improve over the stock carbs.
at medium revs it would struggle to accept full throttle. even after a couple of dyno runs we could not get them to fuel cleanly
( according to the dyno operator simply not enough air going through to let the 36 mm work properly)
I swapped them for PHF 32 mm, which are great and are a improvement over stock.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 27, 2022, 09:01:47 AM
Thanks for the suggestions... but I'll be leaving it stock. No need or want for more power(I'd have kept the Ducati if I had).

Also the local shop said I can bring any parts over there for testing and inspection... so that is a huge help.

But I'll post pics here for your opinions as well.

Thanks again so much everyone.

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: guzzisteve on June 27, 2022, 09:37:01 AM
While I’m managing to get these things off and haven’t sent to Millenium, if anyone has a source or suggestion on how to get a Gilardoni set I’d appreciate it. It would be easier and less to worry about and measure as far as the old pistons.

Very low miles and almost none since it was brought back to life after sitting… so hoping for the former. And I may reach out to you if that’s ok once I get it apart to see what I should be measuring and what those dimensions should be. Thanks
You may want to check w/Todd over at GT or in his store. I thought I saw a set there.

Yes
https://gtmotocycles.com/products/gilardoni-piston-cylinder-set-82-5mm?_pos=1&_psq=Cylinder&_ss=e&_v=1.0

Maybe it was above on this thread.

This is the very reason I used LA Sleeve & cast bores matched to my pistons. A process used for many years. Don't need Nik just cause others say so. The 1st V7 motor is perfect, been riding that one for 17yrs. Getting another I had done at same time put together now for another V7 of mine to run. Got 3
I had 2 sets done w/sleeves for less than 1 set of Nik.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 27, 2022, 11:12:33 AM
As I posted previously, the photo of the Gilardoni kits on Guzzitech show Ambassador pistons - no relief for the intake valve. Likely 83 mm bore and slightly lower compression as well.

Nikasil allows tighter clearances for cooler running and less noise. When I priced buying LA Sleeves, having the cylinders bored, sleeves installed, bored to the correct i.d. and honed, it was nearly the same cost as Nikasil at Millennium.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 27, 2022, 03:49:35 PM
Millennium, including fitting the pistons, rings, etc is only charging $600 for both. Obviously Shipping is additional $100 or so total for both ways.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me. Just hope the pistons are still usable.

We'll see.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: guzzisteve on June 27, 2022, 05:26:34 PM
That's what I paid for 2 sets done in 04 from a friend w/engine remanufacturing shop. Your deal sounds good for stuff now.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Canuck750 on June 27, 2022, 06:57:28 PM
I have many years experience in the area of automotive repair, especially in engine rebuilding. If this was my engine I would start out by pulling it completely apart and assessing the total condition of all the components. At the moment you are focusing on only one area that needs attention, sure the cylinders need to be repaired, but how about everything else? You are starting in the middle and that is a mistake, take the engine out and strip it down, you may find that it needs everything or if you are lucky, very little. In any event you should pull the crank and clean the sludge trap, while there measure the journal dimensions etc., inspect the oil pump as well as the cam and followers and be prepared to spend some cash.   DonG

Don is 100% on this advice,

just replacing the cylinders / pistons does not solve the problem(s). If the crank journals, main or shell bearings and/or the oil pump are worn the cylinder replacement will not forestall a failure.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Frenchfrog on June 28, 2022, 03:10:42 AM
On the same page too. Not hard to check all of this for an experienced mechanic. Parts availability for the bearings is excellent too......
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Dave Swanson on June 28, 2022, 07:18:07 AM
I will pile on with all the others.  I assumed you were in for a total engine strip, and inspection when deciding to plate the cylinders.  If that wasn't your plan, please listen to the sage advice given. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on June 28, 2022, 03:49:07 PM
I will pile on with all the others.  I assumed you were in for a total engine strip, and inspection when deciding to plate the cylinders.  If that wasn't your plan, please listen to the sage advice given.

Yeah a while up on the thread I mentioned definitely taking it all apart.

The local shop agreed to inspect, measured etc everything and I'll also post pics and measurements here and will replace, refinish what is needed.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Frenchfrog on June 28, 2022, 04:23:37 PM
Great ...it's probably disappointing to have to do this but at the end you won't be plagued by nasty surprises.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 03, 2022, 10:04:15 AM
Sorry deleted previous post when I remembered I could just turn the rear wheel and get it where I needed everything.

Ok finally got back in town. My daughter and I got the right cylinder off this morning. Thankfully it looks fine, better than the left. So fingers crossed the rebuild will find little to no damage. But we'll deal with whatever is found. Next will get the pistons off(bought a heat gun to help with he pins), verify they're in spec... and get the whole set off to Millennium.

Thanks again for all the help!


(https://i.ibb.co/wsZTjc2/IMG-1342.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wsZTjc2)

(https://i.ibb.co/zR0YQSh/IMG-1344.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zR0YQSh)

(https://i.ibb.co/yk90CNm/IMG-1343.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yk90CNm)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 04, 2022, 12:50:48 PM
Before I go to get the piston ring out... are these smaller on one side the the other or can they be removed in either direction?

Thank you!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on July 04, 2022, 12:55:09 PM
Before I go to get the piston ring out... are these smaller on one side the the other or can they be removed in either direction?

Thank you!!

The pin bore? Same diameter the whole way through. Can be removed either direction.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 04, 2022, 01:05:09 PM
The pin bore? Same diameter the whole way through. Can be removed either direction.

Thank you!! Very rarely I've heard of ones that were not... and people finding out after they've lost their minds trying to get them out the wrong side.

Thank you again!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 04, 2022, 02:39:20 PM
Suckers popped right out, thankfully.

Now. Want to measure the pistons and make sure they’re good before sending to Millenium with the cylinders. Like a dumb#%€I forgot to keep track of which piston was which when I was taking the rings out. I’m assuming they will have to measure for the rings, etc anyway and and will match based on size. Fingers crossed.

So… what am I measuring on these? I found some great Italian in the book and some long division on a diagram, lol. Also found ring slot height clearance but that’s with the rings in. I took them out. Any guidance or hard numbers here would be appreciated.


(https://i.ibb.co/dc4h9Rz/B19595-D3-8035-468-B-AE3-C-592-F96-D5-FC6-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dc4h9Rz)

(https://i.ibb.co/JByXqtd/4-C45-C04-D-4345-43-A9-A472-252871798977.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JByXqtd)

(https://i.ibb.co/BnwWbCF/D06-F4-B2-D-1510-4156-A8-A7-667-F95-FF141-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BnwWbCF)

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 04, 2022, 04:12:37 PM
Do you have a shop manual? https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/workshop_manual_v7sport_750s_850t.pdf
Piston specs are on (pdf) page 21 of 135, paper manual page 19. The drawings of how to measure and dimensions is on 98 & 99 of 135.

Thanks for this.. but unfortunately I took the rings out already and the measurements on page 21 seem to refer to rings still in. I guess I can put the back and measure but is there an overall measurement I can check since the rings will be replaced anyway?

And on pages 98&99... excuse my ignorance, which measurement might be the right one? None seem to be right if I'm reading it correctly, which I am definitely not.

Basically.  how wide should each of the ring channels be? And aside form that and the overall diameter of the pistons, which look fine, what else do I need to measure? Not concerned with ring gap, again as Millennium will be installing new fitted rings.

Thank you so much for your help!!

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Tom H on July 04, 2022, 07:08:24 PM
If your sending off the complete sets, they should check the measurements. You might want to give them a heads up to make sure they do it. When you get them back, then you could measure the ring groove clearance.

As low a miles as your bike has, I would think the pistons are in very good shape. Just like I would do, I think your over thinking this.

They will probably check the pistons and find they are fine. Then plate and bore them to the pistons.

If they send the pistons back without the rings installed. There is a top, this way up, to the rings. If they do not include instructions, ask them!

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 04, 2022, 08:08:50 PM
Ok yeah I believe they said they’d do all that. I’m sure they’ll let me know if anything is out of whack. They Thanks. Gonna get them in the mail this week and start pulling the rest apart and see if there’s and damage from the chrome.

Thanks and have a great evening!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Canuck750 on July 04, 2022, 08:50:16 PM
Harpers has V7 Sport ring sets in stock, worth fitting new rings if your going all in with the Nikasil coating.

https://www.harpermoto.com/deves-piston-rings-for-v7-sport-mc151.html

MG Cycle has the gudgeon pin circlips, they should always be replaced when a piston is removed from a conrod.

https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_129&products_id=1345

and a whole other option is to go with these kits from HMB Moto Guzzi in Germany, 855 Euro / $892 USD and get new pistons, rings, pin, circlips and cylinders, might work out to be cheaper than the replating route.

https://hmb-guzzi.de/Engine-upgrade-V7-V7-Sport-750-S-750-S3
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 04, 2022, 09:16:22 PM
Harpers has V7 Sport ring sets in stock, worth fitting new rings if your going all in with the Nikasil coating.

https://www.harpermoto.com/deves-piston-rings-for-v7-sport-mc151.html

MG Cycle has the gudgeon pin circlips, they should always be replaced when a piston is removed from a conrod.

https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=68_129&products_id=1345

Thanks... was thinking I'd do new rings... then broke one removing it so... yup.

I shot Millennium an email to see if they have them or if I should source elsewhere... and will grab a set if so. Do you know if that set you linked to is for both cylinders? I see these for only one:

https://www.dlastore.com/e_store/piston-ring-set-for-moto-guzzi-v7-sport-750cc-motorcycle-82-5mm.html

https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?language=en&products_id=177950

https://moto-renzo.biz/Tecnical-Goods/Engine-Spare-Parts/cylinder-piston-rings/Piston-Rings-V7-Sport.html?language=en

Any better or worse than the other?

Thanks!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Canuck750 on July 04, 2022, 10:53:42 PM
Thanks... was thinking I'd do new rings... then broke one removing it so... yup.

I shot Millennium an email to see if they have them or if I should source elsewhere... and will grab a set if so. Do you know if that set you linked to is for both cylinders? I see these for only one:

https://www.dlastore.com/e_store/piston-ring-set-for-moto-guzzi-v7-sport-750cc-motorcycle-82-5mm.html

https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?language=en&products_id=177950

https://moto-renzo.biz/Tecnical-Goods/Engine-Spare-Parts/cylinder-piston-rings/Piston-Rings-V7-Sport.html?language=en

Any better or worse than the other?

Thanks!!

I used the Harper’s rings on. 750S3, no experience with the others.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 05, 2022, 06:09:44 AM
Quote
And on pages 98&99... excuse my ignorance, which measurement might be the right one? None seem to be right if I'm reading it correctly, which I am definitely not.

Basically.  how wide should each of the ring channels be?
That is what it is showing. 2.03 is min, 2.05 is max.
Edit:
If you don't know.. there is a ring expander for use in removing rings. Hopefully you didn't scratch the pistons taking them off (and breaking one).
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 05, 2022, 07:05:40 AM
That is what it is showing. 2.03 is min, 2.05 is max.
Edit:
If you don't know.. there is a ring expander for use in removing rings. Hopefully you didn't scratch the pistons taking them off (and breaking one).

I did get little scuffs in one, butchered it. Don't even remember doing that but couldn't have been from anything else. The other one is fine. So odd. I should have waited and gotten the proper tool... or just left them on. Definitely got overzealous there and feel like an idiot.

I'll see if Millennium has an issue with anything on the piston. May have to see if I can get it repaired.
(https://i.ibb.co/3dYYyTL/67871687331-A290-DD8-E-431-C-4973-8-BBE-23-DB6-A16-F9-F9-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3dYYyTL)


Any way to polish that out or should Millennium be able to do so?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 05, 2022, 08:31:19 AM
Millennium said they'd have to see them in person but should be ok. Fingers crossed. I feel like an idiot.

Ordered rings and will ship off the cyls, pistons and rings as soon as they arrive.

Thanks everyone for their input and I'll let you know how it goes.

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 05, 2022, 12:47:37 PM
Winced (literally) when I saw the picture. Those are pretty serious stress risers..
Here is my antique (naturally)  :smiley: Spring deringer.
(https://static.imgzeit.com/reduced/016b989b7ec76db9/20220705_134030.jpg)
as you close the handles, the jaws close..then as you continue squeezing it spreads the ends of the ring apart so you can just lift it off the piston.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 05, 2022, 01:17:41 PM
Winced (literally) when I saw the picture. Those are pretty serious stress risers..
Here is my antique (naturally)  :smiley: Spring deringer.
as you close the handles, the jaws close..then as you continue squeezing it spreads the ends of the ring apart so you can just lift it off the piston.
I went back over them and they look worse in the pics than in person or how they feel... can't feel them at all or get a finger nail to catch... so hoping its ok.

Can I borrow that tool... YESTERDAY!!??  :laugh:
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 12, 2022, 01:05:50 PM
Been a while, but rings arrived(from Greece). Packed them in with the pistons and cylinders and handed to UPS today. I'll sleep better when they say all is well and get started with the plating.

Now plenty left to do... gonna take the engine out and see what needs refinishing or replacing.


(https://i.ibb.co/Xb0QHRN/1-FF8-E900-42-CD-4-E16-9-CE7-FA16635-C06-D7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xb0QHRN)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: s1120 on July 13, 2022, 06:34:12 AM
I went back over them and they look worse in the pics than in person or how they feel... can't feel them at all or get a finger nail to catch... so hoping its ok.

Can I borrow that tool... YESTERDAY!!??  :laugh:

I did that before and thought I really messed it up. once I cleaned the piston it was all but gone. It wasn't so much a scratch, but a clean spot. Granted it was a V8 not a motorcycle, but I ran that motor for two seasons in my drag car. Ive been more carful from then on though.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Moparnut72 on July 13, 2022, 09:02:56 AM
I wouldn't be too concerned about those scratches. I was helping a guy with a fresh out of the box 125 cc Rossi Italian racing outboard. We were setting up the boat for a time trials. We wound up sticking the motor. Some muriatic acid and some fine sanding on the piston we were running again. We got it up to just over 85 mph. Two weeks later he set the world recordat just over 87 mph with the same piston.
kk
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 13, 2022, 09:35:44 AM
Thank you both!

Yeah I'll definitely be more careful.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on July 13, 2022, 10:37:27 AM
I have an expander like this and it works well:
https://www.amazon.com/Piston-Pliers-Compressor-Expander-Installer/dp/B07YWG6VDR
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 17, 2022, 05:14:57 PM
Ok now that the  cylinders and pistons are shipped off... I guess I need to remove the motor next. Any step by step guides out there?

In the manual this is all it says, lol:
By means of the wrench n. 14927700 (32 i n fig . 6) undo the lockrings of exhaust pipes on cylinder heads and after loosening the screws fixing silencers to frame remove the exhaust pipe-silencer assemblies.
Place part n. 14912400 (10 in fig. 7) under the engine oil sump: remove the rods from rear brake and gear- shift levers; remove the cable from the crutch control
lever on the gearbox; disconnect all electric wirings; then slide off the engine-gearbox unit from the after undoing all fixing devices.
After removing the engine-gearbox from the frame, wash it down thoroughly In petrol before separating the engine unit from the gearbox.


Soooo... do I need that tool/thing to hold the bottom of the motor? Right now its on a hydraulic jack but that device looks more stable.

Also... once the engine/gearbox is disconnected from the frame, electronics, etc... I assume lifting the rest of the bike off it is the only way to get it out?

For those of you at home the have done this... HOW??? lol.

Thanks!!
(https://i.ibb.co/HFr9Y17/Screen-Shot-2022-07-17-at-6-14-39-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/HFr9Y17)


Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on July 17, 2022, 06:29:58 PM
Do a search here for Crabbing the Frame and you will find out how to get the engine and trans out.

One place to look:
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_complex-technical_crab-frame.htm
You might also want to brows around that site for help with the engine.

You do not need the special engine holder. Once you see what you need to do, some blocks of wood, cinder blocks, scissor jack (platform style preferable), car floor jack will get the job done.

I use an engine puller to hold my frame up, quick and easy. Others remove the front wheel and use various means to hold the frame.  Whatever you chose, do it safely!!!

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: cliffrod on July 17, 2022, 06:33:39 PM
Guess it’s time to learn about crabbing a Moto Guzzi… Search the forum for the term “crabbing”

Or you can do it from the other end like I did before I ever heard of crabbing it from the back.  Block the engine with some 2x4’s or whatever and undo what is needed to remove front end and other stuff like lower frame bolts, swingarm pivots, etc to lift the frame off the engine/trans unit.   

Just stabilize the engine unit well so it doesn’t fall off. Then take the rest of the bike off the engine & trans assembly.  An engine hoist or even just a rope/strap over a rafter helps a lot.  It isn’t rocket science, just atypical of wrasslin’ a complete heavy engine out of & into a looped frame of any brand.

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 17, 2022, 07:20:25 PM
I have a special tool called "The Box."  :smiley: I have pix somewhere, but it is simply a wooden box just tall enough for the pan to set on.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Dave Swanson on July 17, 2022, 07:39:03 PM
Ok now that the  cylinders and pistons are shipped off... I guess I need to remove the motor next. Any step by step guides out there?

In the manual this is all it says, lol:
By means of the wrench n. 14927700 (32 i n fig . 6) undo the lockrings of exhaust pipes on cylinder heads and after loosening the screws fixing silencers to frame remove the exhaust pipe-silencer assemblies.
Place part n. 14912400 (10 in fig. 7) under the engine oil sump: remove the rods from rear brake and gear- shift levers; remove the cable from the crutch control
lever on the gearbox; disconnect all electric wirings; then slide off the engine-gearbox unit from the after undoing all fixing devices.
After removing the engine-gearbox from the frame, wash it down thoroughly In petrol before separating the engine unit from the gearbox.


Soooo... do I need that tool/thing to hold the bottom of the motor? Right now its on a hydraulic jack but that device looks more stable.

Also... once the engine/gearbox is disconnected from the frame, electronics, etc... I assume lifting the rest of the bike off it is the only way to get it out?

For those of you at home the have done this... HOW??? lol.

Thanks!!
(https://i.ibb.co/HFr9Y17/Screen-Shot-2022-07-17-at-6-14-39-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/HFr9Y17)


(https://i.postimg.cc/qq3zQg57/IMG-4689.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ctdxL1Zq)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zf9sWvpT/Scan-20180815-5.png) (https://postimg.cc/gwHtbYC0)

(https://i.postimg.cc/43Z6tbRf/IMG-6475.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QF4KZ7Mw)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Fzw71sBR/IMG_7865.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kRFnp993)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 18, 2022, 07:18:12 AM
This may beyond what I am able to do... we'll see.

Also... at this point the rear of the engine is accessible... but how would you remove it? I'd have to use a hoist to raise the frame? But then why use the crabbing method at all?


(https://i.ibb.co/m4HmjSs/Screen-Shot-2022-07-18-at-8-15-20-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/m4HmjSs)


I guess instead of tilting it, hinging on that front bolt... I just remove that front bolt and lift the frame off with a shop crane/hoist, etc? Gonna need a bigger garage, lol!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: cliffrod on July 18, 2022, 08:42:21 AM
Back when I was young & dumb (vs old & dumb now…) and was doing it completely on my own with no internet or nearby guzzi people tell me right from wrong, I simply took my bike apart when it needed to be done.  Never crabbed a bike from the back.  I took front end off, disconnected what was needed and lifted the rest of the bike off of the assembled engine & trans unit.   That approach seemed more logical to me.  Before I had an engine hoist, I used a rope or strap over a rafter to lift the chassis.  I connected it to the steering neck.  When that wasn’t an option, I just took enough off the bike so that I could handle it.

Was it easier or more efficient than an official crab from the back of the bike- don’t know.  It worked for me.  And I did it in borrowed space, on the tiny front porch, etc- always on a short schedule & never in my own dedicated ample space with proper tools.   

Don’t overthink it.  Just be careful not to break anything.  If you have to force it, rethink it to figure out what you missed.  You’ll be fine.  In the end, you’ll know your bike very well.  It’s a simple bike and knowing what & where everything is will make riding it a much more peace-of-mind experience. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on July 18, 2022, 11:54:51 AM
Crabbing is just about the easiest way to get the trans off to work on the clutch. Can also be used for engine removal.

If you have a helper or a shop crane, you can always remove what is needed to lighten the frame and lift the frame off of the engine. Pull both wheels, fork tubes (leave the triple clamp installed) and swing arm as well as the seat and gas tank and the frame is not very heavy, one person can carry it. To get it on and off the engine, a helper is really nice to have.

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 18, 2022, 12:30:43 PM
Thank you!!

Ok Millenium says the pistons and cylinders are fine and will begin work. They did ask, however:
 “One is at .0018 and the other is .0024. I need to know what clearance you want to get correct final size. “

Gonna go digging but anyone know what the correct clearance is off hand?

Thank you!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Pescatore on July 18, 2022, 07:41:50 PM
This may beyond what I am able to do... we'll see.

Also... at this point the rear of the engine is accessible... but how would you remove it? I'd have to use a hoist to raise the frame? But then why use the crabbing method at all?

I had never worked on a bike before and four years later, with lots of
help from reading this forum, I fixed my V65 GT.
I hoisted my from the ceiling in my garage. Take a look at my thread.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=102352.msg1619257#msg1619257
I'm not sure how similar my bike is to yours, but it will give you an idea of what's involved.
Some of the pictures are motion gifs.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on July 18, 2022, 07:50:44 PM
I feel compelled to mention this. Not all roof beams are made the same. I have hung a frame and the like for painting from the beams in my garage. Would a try to "safely" hang a heavier weight from it, hell no!!!!! Not with my hands/arms in a very compromised situation.

So.....Think it out as to the weight and what you need to hold it for you.

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 18, 2022, 08:42:32 PM
Thank you all. I found the clearance specs on another thread and also in Guzzilogy. For this interested the V7 Sport is about .0014-.0019”. Later Nikasil bikes a little tighter but .0015 is a good number.

As far as lifting it, I’ll probably grab a crane from harbor freight. Should be able to get what’s left if the bike up plenty night with it. I’ll put the engine and tranny on my hydraulic jack and can lower them. Between the two can probably roll the drive train right out from under the lifted frame.

Exhaust, seat and fender are off. Tranny is drained. Baby steps.

I’ll shoot some pics and updates soon.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: MotoGuzzi750 on July 18, 2022, 09:47:26 PM
What Cam said !!!!

I just noticed the bikes you own, and if possible want to see pictures of your bikes, if you have posted them somewhere.

Thanks.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on July 18, 2022, 09:52:34 PM
Before you buy a lift, you might check to see if you have a tool/equipment rental near you. Years ago, there were lifts that you attached to a trailer hitch and towed it.

If you have the room to store one, they can be very handy. For one thing, I use one to change my back tire, and the front on my HD.

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on July 21, 2022, 07:07:28 AM
Yup... thought about rental... but at Harbor Freight they're only $200. Can grab one and sell it for $100 when I'm done, lol. Might keep it. Like you said, could come in handy!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Scout63 on July 21, 2022, 07:12:14 AM
The Harbor Freight lift is a great lift for the money. Once you have one you will never want to be without it.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 07, 2022, 09:31:56 AM
Been a while since I’ve updated. Life gets in the way but my daughter and I have made slow progress. Millennia still has the cylinders and pistons and we’ve finally got the frame and motor both supported. So now just disconnecting everything, undoing the lower frame and lowering the drivetrain and raising the frame. Then wheel the drivetrain on out.


(https://i.ibb.co/RBmb3L8/D54-EAD24-6-A07-448-E-8-C91-B637-F1632-D06.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RBmb3L8)

(https://i.ibb.co/9Yv4YnD/26-F49-C8-D-89-DD-443-E-AD7-B-2-DD4-F05-F5-ED5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9Yv4YnD)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: czakky82 on August 07, 2022, 10:01:13 AM
That frame looks great! Keep at it!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: cliffrod on August 07, 2022, 10:43:20 AM
Reality does have a way of laying waste to the best-made plans…

Thanks for the new pics.  It’s looking good. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 13, 2022, 03:56:49 PM
Thanks for all the encouragement!!

...and FINALLY!!!


(https://i.ibb.co/9H6nhmL/IMG-1496.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9H6nhmL)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: cliffrod on August 13, 2022, 05:09:18 PM
Very cool.  Great to see your progress.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on August 13, 2022, 06:51:07 PM
Nice work!!!

If you need to pull the rear main bearing, I would suggest the correct tool ( I tried a proven method using set screws and bolts and broke a section of the flange off. Maybe more experience would have helped with this method, my bearing was stuck). Kinda expensive to buy the tool for a one time use, maybe someone near you could rent it or loan it, or maybe a shop rent one or just have them pull the bearing and pay the few bucks. The bearing is not cheap, $140-350 depending on size and who has one.

Good luck!!!
Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 14, 2022, 06:17:44 PM
Nice work!!!

If you need to pull the rear main bearing, I would suggest the correct tool ( I tried a proven method using set screws and bolts and broke a section of the flange off. Maybe more experience would have helped with this method, my bearing was stuck). Kinda expensive to buy the tool for a one time use, maybe someone near you could rent it or loan it, or maybe a shop rent one or just have them pull the bearing and pay the few bucks. The bearing is not cheap, $140-350 depending on size and who has one.

Good luck!!!
Tom

Thanks!!

I main pull it as, although the seal was replaced, it appears to still be leaking. Also want the check the condition of the bearing and area from the chrome that came off the cylinder. I'll see if I can borrow, rent a puller... if not maybe I'll bite the bullet and buy one.


Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 15, 2022, 05:55:52 AM
I've had good luck with the jack screws to pull the bearing.. but.. one was stuck and I *knew* I was going to break that casting. I set it on the back and used the crankshaft for a driver. <shrug>
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 15, 2022, 01:41:58 PM
I just went ahead and ordered a puller from MGCycle. For $40 its not worth the hassle or worry of trying something else.

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: blackcat on August 15, 2022, 02:29:53 PM
I just went ahead and ordered a puller from MGCycle. For $40 its not worth the hassle or worry of trying something else.

Well worth the money IMO.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on August 15, 2022, 06:00:14 PM
Chuck,

While trying the jack it out method, I snapped off a flange. I had the engine in the bike still because I just needed to replace the gasket and seal, the gasket was leaking. It was the first time I tried to remove a rear main. I was being careful, not ham fisted, but the bearing was one of the stuck ones. I didn't know how they should come out. I heard a pop and thought it's coming, yeah!!, the flange was but not the bearing.

If I would have known how it should come out. I whould have stopped, pulled the engine, tore it all down so I could drive out the bearing with the crank.

On the same engine, I had to pull the rear main a few days ago. Borrowed the tool and the bearing just about fell out. The jacking method would have worked without issue.

On the other hand, Richie you listening, While using the proper puller, the bearing can still be tough to get out. I have been helping a friend and have had to pull a few rear mains. Some came out with a firm finger twist of the tool. Others needed to have heat applied (think heat gun) to the bearing flange while having the puller tightened up firmly. Then when hot tighten a bit more, heat and repeat.

When it comes time to pull it, if in any doubt ask for advise!!

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Don G on August 15, 2022, 10:52:08 PM
Every rear bearing that I have removed was done with a 3 or 4 pound plastic dead blow hammer, put a piece of wood between the crank and bench to keep the assembly from falling too far when it comes loose, a couple of whacks is all it takes. DonG
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: smdl on August 16, 2022, 02:02:19 PM
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but while you're in there, here are the things you'll want to check:

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_engine_out__check_these_things.html

Also, read Charlie's recommendations for what sealants to use on the second post in this thread:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=83176.10

Best of luck!

Shaun
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Frenchfrog on August 16, 2022, 02:55:34 PM
I've done Don's method without flaws too.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 19, 2022, 03:59:00 PM
Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but while you're in there, here are the things you'll want to check:

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_engine_out__check_these_things.html

Also, read Charlie's recommendations for what sealants to use on the second post in this thread:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=83176.10

Best of luck!

Shaun

Thanks! Will do!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 21, 2022, 11:48:51 AM
Ok another dumb question. So I see a hardened pin on MGCycle to assist removing the alternator. What’s the best procedure? Should I get that pin and insert it and then do as directed on that’s site? If says to insert the bolt again and tighten some, then tap the alternator with a soft mallet, etc.


(https://i.ibb.co/51x0qHS/40-DF7-B05-DAB7-4069-92-BF-ACDB46-D7712-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/51x0qHS)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Frenchfrog on August 21, 2022, 11:58:39 AM
That's the safe thing to do....do not be tempted to use any old piece of rod as it will mushroom , not get the rotor off and bugger up the crank thread.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 21, 2022, 12:01:53 PM
Ok another dumb question. So I see a hardened pin on MGCycle to assist removing the alternator. What’s the best procedure? Should I get that pin and insert it and then do as directed on that’s site? If says to insert the bolt again and tighten some, then tap the alternator with a soft mallet, etc.


(https://i.ibb.co/51x0qHS/40-DF7-B05-DAB7-4069-92-BF-ACDB46-D7712-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/51x0qHS)


I don't recommend using that pin, seen too many get stuck. Use one of these instead:
https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/boalt-rotor642tool.htm

Unless the rotor is really stuck, it'll pop off while you tighten the tool. If not, tighten, then tap the end of the tool with a hammer.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 21, 2022, 12:18:33 PM
I don't recommend using that pin, seen too many get stuck. Use one of these instead:
https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/boalt-rotor642tool.htm

Unless the rotor is really stuck, it'll pop off while you tighten the tool. If not, tighten, then tap the end of the tool with a hammer.

Ordered!!

And... while I have you, lol... where can I get the tools to remove the flywheel, etc on other end? Ring gear and clutch are off, but I see other tools used for the next steps in the manual. I should also get the clamp that keeps it from turning, I assume... just used a wooden shim when taking off the ring gear bolts.

Thanks again!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 21, 2022, 12:39:42 PM
Ordered!!

And... while I have you, lol... where can I get the tools to remove the other end? Ring gear and clutch are off, but I see other tools used for the next steps in the manual. I should also get the clamp that keeps it from turning, I assume... just used a wooden shim when taking off the ring gear bolts.

Thanks again!!

I don't use any "special" tools to remove or install the flywheel. Thread two M8 bolts into two ring gear bolt holes and slip a prybar in between them. Works for installation too.


(https://i.ibb.co/kGmsgfP/Flywheel-installation.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kGmsgfP)


When installing the ring gear, I just use a small prybar to engage the teeth and rest the shaft of the prybar on one of the engine studs.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 21, 2022, 12:44:54 PM
I don't use any "special" tools to remove or install the flywheel. Thread two M8 bolts into two ring gear bolt holes and slip a prybar in between them. Works for installation too.


(https://i.ibb.co/kGmsgfP/Flywheel-installation.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kGmsgfP)


When installing the ring gear, I just use a small prybar to engage the teeth and rest the shaft of the prybar on one of the engine studs.
Sorry.. I was at the wrong end in the manual... meant his on the front:

(https://i.ibb.co/dJW7w2b/Screen-Shot-2022-08-21-at-1-44-27-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/dJW7w2b)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 21, 2022, 01:48:42 PM
Sorry.. I was at the wrong end in the manual... meant his on the front:

(https://i.ibb.co/dJW7w2b/Screen-Shot-2022-08-21-at-1-44-27-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/dJW7w2b)


Just a little different.  :wink: The cam gear (or sprocket) is held on with hex nut (27 mm socket), but the crank gear (or sprocket) is retained with a "ring nut" with four notches. You'll need a tool like this for the ring nut:
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80&products_id=840

For disassembly, a "rattle gun" (air or electric impact wrench) works well. The ring nut has a locking washer behind it with one tang bent into the notch, that will need to be drifted out of the notch before removal.

For reassembly, I lock the flywheel from turning, to tighten those nuts.

If you have a gear driven cam, you'll need a small three-legged puller to remove the oil pump drive gear. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 21, 2022, 02:13:13 PM
Just a little different.  :wink: The cam gear (or sprocket) is held on with hex nut (27 mm socket), but the crank gear (or sprocket) is retained with a "ring nut" with four notches. You'll need a tool like this for the ring nut:
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80&products_id=840

For disassembly, a "rattle gun" (air or electric impact wrench) works well. The ring nut has a locking washer behind it with one tang bent into the notch, that will need to be drifted out of the notch before removal.

For reassembly, I lock the flywheel from turning, to tighten those nuts.

If you have a gear driven cam, you'll need a small three-legged puller to remove the oil pump drive gear.


Thank you!! I saw that little puller on the image in the manual that follows those two... hopefully MGCycle has it.

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 21, 2022, 02:17:53 PM
While waiting on the tools to remove the front, I removed the flywheel, rear main and piston rods.

Took some pcs to see what damage might have resulted from ay chrome in the oil, but not sure what I'm looking for. Going to replace the rod bearings, obviously... and assumedly should bite the bullet and replace the rear main as well? Snd how do I know to go with standard or oversize... and front one too?  As far as the crank, so far... does this look like any damage from chrome or just normal wear?


(https://i.ibb.co/2sHk6v8/IMG-1547.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2sHk6v8) (https://i.ibb.co/sjWY4wQ/IMG-1546.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sjWY4wQ) (https://i.ibb.co/zfHjhND/IMG-1544.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zfHjhND) (https://i.ibb.co/0XSVWXg/IMG-1543.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0XSVWXg) (https://i.ibb.co/rsdDSGq/IMG-1542.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rsdDSGq) (https://i.ibb.co/SJ97vpj/IMG-1541.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SJ97vpj) (https://i.ibb.co/NSYnnsm/IMG-1540.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NSYnnsm) (https://i.ibb.co/QYJkxh2/IMG-1539.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QYJkxh2) (https://i.ibb.co/qdRsMhG/IMG-1538.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qdRsMhG) (https://i.ibb.co/wYtzC66/IMG-1537.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wYtzC66) (https://i.ibb.co/7JHmxbb/IMG-1536.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7JHmxbb) (https://i.ibb.co/Qmm0cGw/IMG-1535.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qmm0cGw)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 21, 2022, 02:35:57 PM

If you have a gear driven cam, you'll need a small three-legged puller to remove the oil pump drive gear.

Any idea where to get one that fits the threads? Not having much luck.

This work? https://www.autozone.com/test-scan-and-specialty-tools/parts-puller-installer/p/oemtools-timing-gear-and-pulley-puller/231208_0_0?cmpid=LIA:US:EN:AD:NL:1000000:TLS:8367255572&gclid=Cj0KCQjwr4eYBhDrARIsANPywCiJLj1ZtGE7VePvKh73uQ4gEKu_pgtke7RHUmlClG45hTgpxq2J5cEaAibAEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: czakky82 on August 21, 2022, 02:53:36 PM
Something like this will work. https://www.harborfreight.com/8-in-three-jaw-gear-puller-69224.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=12144811130&campaignid=12144811130&utm_content=117789304718&adsetid=117789304718&product=69224&store=&gclid=Cj0KCQjwr4eYBhDrARIsANPywCiS9CjbViwVpsIWnR3h67iiKB6xn-bb66xOMl_bsl-M9ooia355M-4aAkFWEALw_wcB

Somebody replaced your rear main seal at some point.
Chrome flakes are likely embedded in your bearings, they will need to be replaced. I’ve got a new 1under front, I’ll sell for cheap.
Best to take your crank to a machine shop and have them inspect/measure for you. Might polish out (doubtful), might need to re-grind.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 21, 2022, 03:05:14 PM
The 3 legged puller I use is the smallest of my three, a 3". It was part of a 3-piece set from Harbor Freight, like this 4-piece set they sell now.
https://www.harborfreight.com/three-jaw-puller-set-4-piece-63760.html

I recently bought one of these, and it may work also.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QKJHC61

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 21, 2022, 03:12:56 PM
Somebody replaced your rear main seal at some point.
Chrome flakes are likely embedded in your bearings, they will need to be replaced. I’ve got a new 1under front, I’ll sell for cheap.
Best to take your crank to a machine shop and have them inspect/measure for you. Might polish out (doubtful), might need to re-grind.

Yeah I'll get one to take a look at it. Yes the rear main seal is fairly new but I have another. But I guess a new bearing is in order.

How do I know whether to use standard or oversized... and 1 under means?

Sorry.. and thank you!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Frenchfrog on August 21, 2022, 03:33:32 PM
The machinist will have to inspect and measure with a micrometer.1st over  means that the new bearing is slightly oversized and matches what has been machined off.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 21, 2022, 03:40:11 PM
The machinist will have to inspect and measure with a micrometer.1st over  means that the new bearing is slightly oversized and matches what has been machined off.

Ok so the machine shop will let me know what size based upon any work they do to it?

Thanks again.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: czakky82 on August 21, 2022, 03:50:53 PM
Ok so the machine shop will let me know what size based upon any work they do to it?

Thanks again.
Yes, it’s best to have the bearings in hand so they can grind to that size.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 21, 2022, 03:55:57 PM
Yes, it’s best to have the bearings in hand so they can grind to that size.

I've never sent the bearings along with any crank I've had ground. I simply provide them with a copy of the pertinent pages from the shop manual, they determine what undersize is needed, and then grind the crank to those specs.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on August 21, 2022, 05:53:47 PM
You've made some headway.

Some tool thoughts.

If you need a 2 or 3 leg puller, check your local auto parts to see if they have one for loan or rent.

For something to hold the crank from turning, at least while the flywheel is on, a scrap bit of metal with two holes drilled in it. Use like this and set for the direction you are turning. You want to pull the bolts apart, not push together. Last bolt use a screwdriver in the ring gear:

(https://i.ibb.co/sjzg9hm/20220821-151420.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sjzg9hm)


For the clutch install, you can use the trans input shaft splined hub and the appropriate bolt.


(https://i.ibb.co/WK348v3/20220821-151501.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WK348v3) (https://i.ibb.co/f28qFTJ/20220821-153020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f28qFTJ)


A note for the clutch install. There should be an arrow on the lip of your flywheel. If you look at my pic you will see a black line that is lined up with the arrow. That line is exactly between two teeth that the pressure plate slides down in. There is a stamped dot on the pressure plate, it goes exactly in line with the arrow, between the two teeth. This lines up the spring location holes.

Another FYI. The arrow is for TDC LH side. When you put the crank and bearings in, turn the crank so that it is fully up on the LH side in the hole for the cylinder.. Then slide the flywheel on with the arrow lined up at the LH little nib cast into the block. The bolt holes should just about be lined up, maybe a half bolt hole or less. Line up and install at least one bolt to keep in place. Double check the your work, it will be obvious if you picked the wrong bolt hole. You might want to mark the crank and flywheel with a dab of paint or a sharpie. This will keep your timing marks correct.

Hope this helps a bit.
Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on August 21, 2022, 08:14:18 PM
A timing chain tip that helps at least me.

Before you remove the timing chain and gears. Line up the timing marks on the gears. This will be TDC LH. Then paint or sharpie a line on each gear from a link on the chain to the gear.

When you go to install the chain and gears. Put the cam and crank gear on and see where the marks line up. Remove gears or gear and rotate the crank or cam as needed to line up the marks. Remove gears without moving the cam or crank.

Then lay out your chain on a table. Set all the gears into the chain lining up the paint marks. Then sorta wind up the chain on the gears so that you can pick them up as a complete set. You'll understand this after dropping them a few times.

Then put the crank gear on just a little in the correct place for the key way. The sorta unwind the chain/gears so that the gears will slide on the shafts and slide the cam gear on and also the oil pump gear.

Once the gears are aligned on the keys on the cam and crank shafts, your paint marks should all be lined up. If not, remove and adjust as needed.

The oil pump key way can be aligned by rotating the oil pump shaft, then slide the key in after the gear is on.

Hope this helps,
Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 21, 2022, 08:50:29 PM
You've made some headway.

Some tool thoughts.

If you need a 2 or 3 leg puller, check your local auto parts to see if they have one for loan or rent.

For something to hold the crank from turning, at least while the flywheel is on, a scrap bit of metal with two holes drilled in it. Use like this and set for the direction you are turning. You want to pull the bolts apart, not push together. Last bolt use a screwdriver in the ring gear:

(https://i.ibb.co/sjzg9hm/20220821-151420.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sjzg9hm)


For the clutch install, you can use the trans input shaft splined hub and the appropriate bolt.


(https://i.ibb.co/WK348v3/20220821-151501.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WK348v3) (https://i.ibb.co/f28qFTJ/20220821-153020.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f28qFTJ)


A note for the clutch install. There should be an arrow on the lip of your flywheel. If you look at my pic you will see a black line that is lined up with the arrow. That line is exactly between two teeth that the pressure plate slides down in. There is a stamped dot on the pressure plate, it goes exactly in line with the arrow, between the two teeth. This lines up the spring location holes.

Another FYI. The arrow is for TDC LH side. When you put the crank and bearings in, turn the crank so that it is fully up on the LH side in the hole for the cylinder.. Then slide the flywheel on with the arrow lined up at the LH little nib cast into the block. The bolt holes should just about be lined up, maybe a half bolt hole or less. Line up and install at least one bolt to keep in place. Double check the your work, it will be obvious if you picked the wrong bolt hole. You might want to mark the crank and flywheel with a dab of paint or a sharpie. This will keep your timing marks correct.

Hope this helps a bit.
Tom

Thank you!!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 21, 2022, 08:51:53 PM
A timing chain tip that helps at least me.

Before you remove the timing chain and gears. Line up the timing marks on the gears. This will be TDC LH. Then paint or sharpie a line on each gear from a link on the chain to the gear.

When you go to install the chain and gears. Put the cam and crank gear on and see where the marks line up. Remove gears or gear and rotate the crank or cam as needed to line up the marks. Remove gears without moving the cam or crank.

Then lay out your chain on a table. Set all the gears into the chain lining up the paint marks. Then sorta wind up the chain on the gears so that you can pick them up as a complete set. You'll understand this after dropping them a few times.

Then put the crank gear on just a little in the correct place for the key way. The sorta unwind the chain/gears so that the gears will slide on the shafts and slide the cam gear on and also the oil pump gear.

Once the gears are aligned on the keys on the cam and crank shafts, your paint marks should all be lined up. If not, remove and adjust as needed.

The oil pump key way can be aligned by rotating the oil pump shaft, then slide the key in after the gear is on.

Hope this helps,
Tom

Thank you!! I'll know when I get the bell housing off but I think one is the early ones without the chain. We'll see!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 21, 2022, 08:59:20 PM
Thank you!! I'll know when I get the bell housing timing cover off but I think one is the early ones without the chain. We'll see!

The timing chain started with engine 33448.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 21, 2022, 09:23:26 PM
The timing chain started with engine 33448.

Yup... like I thought... Mine's 32160
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on August 21, 2022, 09:32:42 PM
Then it looks like you have gears, not chain. My apologies.

There should be "factory" painted marks on the teeth of the gears. IIRR, the cam has a mark that covers two teeth and the crank just on one tooth. Maybe the other way around.

Much easier than the chain!!
Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on August 22, 2022, 08:49:31 AM
Then it looks like you have gears, not chain. My apologies.

There should be "factory" painted marks on the teeth of the gears. IIRR, the cam has a mark that covers two teeth and the crank just on one tooth. Maybe the other way around.

Much easier than the chain!!
Tom

Thank you!!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: John A on August 22, 2022, 09:38:45 AM
Make sure you clean the sludge trap.  It’s best to use a new plug.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 05, 2022, 10:37:54 AM
So got back in town and the alternator tool and gear pullers had arrived. Used the alternator tool today, but no go... it goes all the way in until the cap is at the front of the alternator... but alternator doesn't budge... any ideas???


(https://i.ibb.co/DtGvL2k/IMG-1620.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DtGvL2k)

(https://i.ibb.co/CHJqDTR/IMG-1621.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CHJqDTR)


I wanted to add that I already have everything off the rear of the crank… is that why? Do I need to put something back on or in the rear of it?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: czakky82 on September 05, 2022, 11:00:41 AM
Something’s not right. Where’s the original rotor bolt?

There are two sets of threads one set in the rotor, the other set in the crank. The tool is just a hardened piece of steel that stops the bolt from going to the rotor but engages the rotor threads. Make sense?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on September 05, 2022, 11:01:08 AM
I want to know why as well??

The tools tip should bottom out in the nose of the crank shaft with some threads still showing. Snug up firmly and give it a rap with a hammer. Repeat as needed.  Be prepared to catch the rotor as it flies off.

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: blackcat on September 05, 2022, 11:01:46 AM
(https://www.mgcycle.com/images/atrex/14906600k.jpg)

I've always used this piece with the original bolt.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 05, 2022, 11:08:47 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/WD4b3B6/IMG-1622.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WD4b3B6)

(https://i.ibb.co/RYqwzRc/IMG-1623.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RYqwzRc)

(https://i.ibb.co/F71y3vD/IMG-1624.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F71y3vD)


Yeah seems weird that it wouldn't bottom out sooner and push the alternator off.

But I see what you mea about two sets of threads... the regular bolt threads thru the first set then into the second deeper set. So maybe I do just need that little push rod instead.

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: czakky82 on September 05, 2022, 11:15:56 AM
I see now. What’s the diameter of that tool?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 05, 2022, 11:19:37 AM
I see now. What’s the diameter of that tool?

Here it is:
https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/boalt-rotor642tool.htm

The tip is 10mm diameter. Wrong one assumedly?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on September 05, 2022, 11:21:04 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/WD4b3B6/IMG-1622.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WD4b3B6)

(https://i.ibb.co/RYqwzRc/IMG-1623.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RYqwzRc)

(https://i.ibb.co/F71y3vD/IMG-1624.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F71y3vD)


Yeah seems weird that it wouldn't bottom out sooner and push the alternator off.

But I see what you mea about two sets of threads... the regular bolt threads thru the first set then into the second deeper set. So maybe I do just need that little push rod instead.

I have the same tool (except black oxide) and have used it dozens of times, never had it go in that far, always worked. I have had the "fun" of removing one of those short pieces that was jammed into the nose of a crank. You should not need anything but the tool.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on September 05, 2022, 11:22:37 AM
Here it is:
https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/boalt-rotor642tool.htm

The tip is 10mm diameter. Wrong one assumedly?

The tip can't be 10 mm - the threaded portion is M8-1.25 and it's smaller than that.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 05, 2022, 11:23:27 AM
I have the same tool (except black oxide) and have used it dozens of times, never had it go in that far, always worked. I have had the "fun" of removing one of those short pieces that was jammed into the nose of a crank. You should not need anything but the tool.

Yeah something's off... hopefully with the tool and not the motor, lol.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 05, 2022, 11:25:11 AM
Yeah something's off... hopefully with the tool and not the motor, lol.

You're right... sorry about 6mm

Do I need to put anything back in or on the back of the crank?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on September 05, 2022, 11:30:25 AM
You're right... sorry about 6mm

Do I need to put anything back in or on the back of the crank?

Having the parts off the back shouldn't have any effect. However, it wouldn't hurt to slip the rear main bearing back in place a little to help support the crank while you finish disassembly.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 05, 2022, 11:34:37 AM
So sorry all and thank you of quick responses.... but its fine.

I put it all the way in again and then used some elbow grease and it turned another quarter turn and the alternator popped right off.

Sorry again... just got nervous and didn't want to break anything... that last quarter turn felt a lot more like bottoming out... the rest of the way was so smooth.

Thank you again!!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: cliffrod on September 05, 2022, 11:35:29 AM
Better to be cautious than break parts. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 05, 2022, 11:55:42 AM
Better to be cautious than break parts.

I appreciate your understanding. Fortunately everything on this bike has come apart cleanly... so I was probably more resistant to pushing my luck this time.

Hoping it all goes together as well!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 05, 2022, 12:10:36 PM
So aside from the marks that are already there, and the picture I took to look back on, anything else I need to mark here or take note of before taking the gears off and the crank out?

(https://i.ibb.co/mRzdD0b/D50-F01-BE-B0-FA-47-BF-B5-EA-1-EBF62-BE67-D3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mRzdD0b)

(https://i.ibb.co/NCK84Ht/F7-BE48-BF-BB71-40-E9-8841-A01500-F687-C2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NCK84Ht)

(https://i.ibb.co/3T5vFT5/1-BB22-C1-A-EC2-D-4-F79-B374-C6-F3904352-F8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3T5vFT5)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on September 05, 2022, 12:27:46 PM
I don't think I see the painted marks on the cam gear. There is what looks like a painted tooth and some paint on the crank gear about where the cam gear rides. The only cam gears I have seen have 2 teeth painted.

Charlie?

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 05, 2022, 12:50:35 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/f0K9thL/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f0K9thL)


(https://i.ibb.co/LhFyzB2/image.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LhFyzB2)


Other than just that tiny bit in two teeth I don’t see anything significant either.

I don't think I see the painted marks on the cam gear. There is what looks like a painted tooth and some paint on the crank gear about where the cam gear rides. The only cam gears I have seen have 2 teeth painted.

Charlie?

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: cliffrod on September 05, 2022, 01:11:40 PM
I appreciate your understanding. Fortunately everything on this bike has come apart cleanly... so I was probably more resistant to pushing my luck this time.

Hoping it all goes together as well!

You’re doing a great job.  Speaking from personal experience, some (many?) of us could have benefited from a more cautious approach on many such things in the past.  Live and learn..  I’m very happy & impressed to see you fixing your engine properly in the beginning.  I wish I had known that I needed to do more than just address the cylinders because I would have done it before things went seriously wrong on my bike..   

As conscientious as you are, the going-back-together should be fine, too.  Slow down and ask questions here whenever needed.  I think you’ll be very happy in the end, even when the end is further away than we think it will be.   
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on September 05, 2022, 03:24:32 PM
Go here and scroll down. There is a picture of the paint that would have been like my Eldo and Ambo.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=99057.0

Maybe there are different ways of marking?

Edit: Look close at "Your" cam gear. In Your first pic it looks like a touch of paint about 12:30. Almost looks like a center punch mark there as well? If you look just on the crank gear, there looks to be paint about half way down on the left of the painted tooth.

Maybe those are the marks?

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 06, 2022, 10:03:56 AM
Go here and scroll down. There is a picture of the paint that would have been like my Eldo and Ambo.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=99057.0

Maybe there are different ways of marking?

Edit: Look close at "Your" cam gear. In Your first pic it looks like a touch of paint about 12:30. Almost looks like a center punch mark there as well? If you look just on the crank gear, there looks to be paint about half way down on the left of the painted tooth.

Maybe those are the marks?

Tom

Ok thanks... I did see a little paint here and there so will take a closer look. I'm waiting on an electric impact wrench I ordered because I could not get that gear nut loose.


Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 12, 2022, 07:00:10 AM
Ok got the gear nut off... so before I yank the gears... considering those marks is there anything I have to remember about where they are before I remove the gears? Or will I just be using them when I put them back in?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on September 12, 2022, 07:58:27 AM
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but before I do *anything* having to do with timing, I put the left (S) cylinder on TDC ready to fire. If you have already done that.. "nevermind.."  :smiley:
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 12, 2022, 08:21:46 AM
Sorry, I haven't read the whole thread, but before I do *anything* having to do with timing, I put the left (S) cylinder on TDC ready to fire. If you have already done that.. "nevermind.."  :smiley:

Oops... crank's off already... lol. But I guess I could pop it back in and do that.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: vintagehoarder on September 13, 2022, 02:40:28 PM
I did on my 73 and gave me great piece of mind, especially when we found this.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-b7qJbbR/0/0294c1c6/X2/i-b7qJbbR-X2.jpg) (https://curtedwards.smugmug.com/Forum-Post/n-zvp7tH/i-b7qJbbR/A)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 15, 2022, 07:32:42 AM
I did on my 73 and gave me great piece of mind, especially when we found this.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-b7qJbbR/0/0294c1c6/X2/i-b7qJbbR-X2.jpg) (https://curtedwards.smugmug.com/Forum-Post/n-zvp7tH/i-b7qJbbR/A)

Hey thanks... but what did you do, put the crank back on? ...and what is that?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Dave Swanson on September 15, 2022, 08:39:17 AM
...and what is that?

If you don't know already you will be finding out soon.  That's one of the lifters. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on September 15, 2022, 09:49:26 AM
Delta Camshaft in Tacoma, WA can reface the lifters for ~ $5 ea.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on September 15, 2022, 08:05:11 PM
Delta Camshaft in Tacoma, WA can reface the lifters for ~ $5 ea.

Yeah haven't gotten the cam out yet... but will certainly check them!

Charlie, anything I need to note about the alignment of those gears and the marks before removing them? Do I need to reattach the crank and get to TDC on one side and then make note?

Thank you all again!

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millenium
Post by: redrider90 on September 15, 2022, 10:36:09 PM
No no, as Charlie said, 26mm. With that said, I use the same as my axle nut size 27mm. Seems to work perfect for both.

And congrats on the family bonding over a bike!

Tom


1-1/16" socket is 0.013" less than 27mm, so the *standard* socket provides a snug fit on the metric hex.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on October 09, 2022, 12:43:28 PM
So finally all apart. Taking the crank, cam and heads to a machine shop tomorrow to get them checked, repaired as needed. None look very bad... oil pump(unless I'm missing something) looks pristine.Lifters do not... assuming these have to be replaced.


(https://i.ibb.co/Vvb4rcd/IMG-1773.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vvb4rcd)

(https://i.ibb.co/0CYdCwQ/IMG-1776.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0CYdCwQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/CMBrCXr/IMG-1775.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CMBrCXr)

(https://i.ibb.co/h8SSZNJ/IMG-1774.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h8SSZNJ)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Frenchfrog on October 09, 2022, 03:33:05 PM
New lifters(or resurfaced) for sure.The rest needs measuring.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Canuck750 on October 09, 2022, 03:35:27 PM
Cam followers can be surface ground, crank can be miced and if need be reground, oil pump shafts and casting bores can be miced for clearance spec and you could get the cam reground to a performance spec if you choose.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on October 09, 2022, 05:07:32 PM
Cam followers can be surface ground, crank can be mixed and if need be reground, oil pump shafts and casting bores can be mixed for clearance spec and you could get the cam reground to a performance spec if you choose.

So take that pump apart and measure the shafts and the bores for the shafts?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Frenchfrog on October 10, 2022, 03:43:14 AM
Yup. Measurements and method in the Guzzi workshop manual.At least they are in the 850 T 3 edition.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Canuck750 on October 10, 2022, 04:14:47 PM
So take that pump apart and measure the shafts and the bores for the shafts?

Yes, the shop manual for the V7 Sport lists the shaft and bore measurements / tolerances. A worn out pump, low oil pressure, will negate all the investment you have put into the bike. Most of the non filter Guzzi engines I have rebuilt had worn out oil pumps, V7 Sport, 750S, a couple Ambassadors, Eldorado, all had sloppy shafts to pump body.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on October 17, 2022, 08:01:27 AM
Yes, the shop manual for the V7 Sport lists the shaft and bore measurements / tolerances. A worn out pump, low oil pressure, will negate all the investment you have put into the bike. Most of the non filter Guzzi engines I have rebuilt had worn out oil pumps, V7 Sport, 750S, a couple Ambassadors, Eldorado, all had sloppy shafts to pump body.

Whats the best tool to measure a bore that small? Will a digital caliper fit in there?

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Frenchfrog on October 17, 2022, 02:55:21 PM
The manual suggests using feeler gauges if my memory is right.The impeller obviously has to be in place.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Canuck750 on October 18, 2022, 11:43:27 AM
Whats the best tool to measure a bore that small? Will a digital caliper fit in there?

As French says; feeler gauges, I would take the oil pump to the shop that is measuring your other components, if the main and shell bearings show deposits of chrome or scoring from chrome it's likely the pump has suffered wear as well. Pumps are not cheap but neither is the effect of poor oil pressure.

One other thing to look at is the oil pressure blow off valve, probably fine but check it anyways.

I fitted a cheap oil pressure gauge to my Eldorado in place of the idiot light sensor and its kind of reassuring to see the healthy pressure the engine maintains, as low as 30 at idle then as high as 60 under load. I got another gauge that I have used for testing with a short piece of hose I have spun on other Guzzi big twins to read the oil pressure before and after rebuilds. I went to Summit racing to get the fittings for metric into the block and the adapter fitting and hose for the gauge.  It only take a couple minutes to remove the oil pressure sensor and for the gauge.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NGSV5gCv/IMG-4754.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/s1PKLRRT)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0bHBQRK/IMG-4753.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FkdqjdwD)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on October 18, 2022, 10:01:19 PM
Whats the best tool to measure a bore that small? Will a digital caliper fit in there?

The holes the gear shafts run in can be measured with a telescopic gauge such as these:
https://www.zoro.com/mitutoyo-telescope-gage-127-19mm-155-128/i/G0970938/
and a micrometer.

The shafts and gears are measured with a micrometer also. The depth of the pump body is measured with a depth gauge.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 19, 2022, 08:34:12 AM
The holes the gear shafts run in can be measured with a telescopic gauge such as these:
https://www.zoro.com/mitutoyo-telescope-gage-127-19mm-155-128/i/G0970938/
and a micrometer.

The shafts and gears are measured with a micrometer also. The depth of the pump body is measured with a depth gauge.

A guy once asked me what a micrometer was and did he need one. I told him if he didn't know what it was, he definitely didn't need one.  :smiley: Harsh, but true. Take that stuff to the machine shop. There is skill involved in using mics and definitely depth mics.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Canuck750 on October 19, 2022, 12:06:06 PM
A guy once asked me what a micrometer was and did he need one. I told him if he didn't know what it was, he definitely didn't need one.  :smiley: Harsh, but true. Take that stuff to the machine shop. There is skill involved in using mics and definitely depth mics.

That is damn good advice Chuck!

I thought I understood tolerances from 40 years in the architectural business and knowing how to read a vernier gauge from drafting by hand with a drafting machine, but getting into mechanical precision is a whole other universe and I know my capabilities to accurately read a micrometer, especialy a fine inside gauge are limited at best.
In my world the tolerances I was used to were huge in comparison, an example; a concrete floor slab will typically be specified with a flat tolerance of 1/8" in 10 feet. A vertical tolerance of a cast in place or steel structure can sound enormous,  a 15 storey apartment building I worked on was drifting 3"+ over the 15 storeys top to ground and that was well within tolerance.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on October 19, 2022, 07:06:51 PM
A guy once asked me what a micrometer was and did he need one. I told him if he didn't know what it was, he definitely didn't need one.  :smiley: Harsh, but true. Take that stuff to the machine shop. There is skill involved in using mics and definitely depth mics.

Yeah I know what one is but still gonna run it down to the machine shop. Bringing them new valves and guides and clips anyway.

Thanks for the advice!

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on October 20, 2022, 08:22:19 AM
Yeah I know what one is but still gonna run it down to the machine shop. Bringing them new valves and guides and clips anyway.

Thanks for the advice!

I didn't mean to say you didn't.. but.. there is a learned "feel" in precision measuring. It is *easy* to be off by a half thousandth.. or more.. without considerable practice.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on October 22, 2022, 12:29:47 PM
Bought new valves, guides, clips and running them down to the shop for install in the heads. Apparently old weren't too bad just recommended to replace due to corrosion from sitting so may years. Gonna ru. the oil pump down as well.

My daughter and I removed all remnants of the old gaskets on everything and cleaned up all the surfaces.

I'm afraid to ask but, while waiting on the crank, heads, cam at the shop... should I open the transmission up and take a look? If so... what am I looking for? It seemed to function well.

Also... it still had a leak that appeared to come from the rear main seal, but it had been replaced and looks good(Gonna replace the bearing and have new seal so doesnt matter). But someone mentioned other things to look at inside the bell housing that could be the source of the leak instead... breaker tube? Anything else in there I should check or reseal?

Thank you all again so much! I'm in South Florida and the weather is just turning great for riding... so its time too get this thing back together!! So you'll see alot more action not his thread now till its done.

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: smdl on October 22, 2022, 01:31:07 PM


Also... it still had a leak that appeared to come from the rear main seal, but it had been replaced and looks good(Gonna replace the bearing and have new seal so doesnt matter). But someone mentioned other things to look at inside the bell housing that could be the source of the leak instead... breaker tube? Anything else in there I should check or reseal?


https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_engine_out__check_these_things.html

👍

Shaun
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on October 22, 2022, 06:48:47 PM
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_engine_out__check_these_things.html

👍

Shaun

Thanks!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Canuck750 on October 24, 2022, 04:55:29 PM
Fit a new pair of proper size crush washers on the breather line fitting, I have had oil drip out of here after a rebuild, had to drop the transmission and remove the clutch to fix a 10 cent washer

(https://i.postimg.cc/KcN6gHSc/DSC05329.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWDQMn82)

JB weld up the back of the cam bearing plug while your in there.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zDVM2Sy8/DSC05084.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QVZ0H7gy)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on October 25, 2022, 07:28:08 AM
Fit a new pair of proper size crush washers on the breather line fitting, I have had oil drip out of here after a rebuild, had to drop the transmission and remove the clutch to fix a 10 cent washer.

JB weld up the back of the cam bearing plug while your in there.


Yeah getting a new pair and gasket for the other pipe in there. Also some liquid gasket for around where they enter/exit and silicone to dab along the hose. That site was very helpful.

I JB Welded the plug too... but yours looks waaaayyyy better.  :bow:

(https://i.ibb.co/Y8QQzrj/IMG-1821.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y8QQzrj)

pic hosting (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on October 25, 2022, 09:27:25 PM
Yeah getting a new pair and gasket for the other pipe in there. Also some liquid gasket for around where they enter/exit and silicone to dab along the hose. That site was very helpful.

I JB Welded the plug too... but yours looks waaaayyyy better.  :bow:

(https://i.ibb.co/Y8QQzrj/IMG-1821.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y8QQzrj)

pic hosting (https://imgbb.com/)


I was once told that I "used too much sealer".  :rolleyes: No, I only use enough to prevent leaks...

Anywho, I use two different sealers when assembling engines. On the breather pipe and rear main bearing flange gasket surfaces I use a light coating of Permatex 300. On the two bottom bolts of the main bearing flange and in addition to the crush washers on the return banjo, I use a liberal coating of Hondabond 4.

I don't use the factory lock tabs, preferring the same DIN 137B wave washers that Guzzi replaced them with.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Scout63 on October 25, 2022, 09:32:52 PM
Fit a new pair of proper size crush washers on the breather line fitting, I have had oil drip out of here after a rebuild, had to drop the transmission and remove the clutch to fix a 10 cent washer

(https://i.postimg.cc/KcN6gHSc/DSC05329.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWDQMn82)

JB weld up the back of the cam bearing plug while your in there.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zDVM2Sy8/DSC05084.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QVZ0H7gy)

I think you just solved my problem Jim. Oil drip after rebuild and I know the rear main seal and transmission input seal are ok since I tore it apart to check.  Ugh. Going in again.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on October 26, 2022, 07:36:01 AM
Sooo... while waiting on the machine shop should Open the transmission? If so what do I look for? Or, since it was shifting and working well, just leave it?

Also... wheel and other bearings... should I pull and check?

Thank you!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: blackcat on October 26, 2022, 07:37:01 AM
I think you just solved my problem Jim. Oil drip after rebuild and I know the rear main seal and transmission input seal are ok since I tore it apart to check.  Ugh. Going in again.

Make sure the breather hoses are not leaking which will also cause that drip.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on October 26, 2022, 08:48:29 AM
Sooo... while waiting on the machine shop should Open the transmission? If so what do I look for? Or, since it was shifting and working well, just leave it?

Also... wheel and other bearings... should I pull and check?

Thank you!

If the transmission has never had the original break-prone shift return spring replaced, then I'd definitely open it up to replace that. Input shaft and output shaft seals are likely old, so those and all o-rings replaced as well. Replace the clutch pushrod "seal" with six o-rings (I supply them for free to anyone in the US).

Five-speeds can have a number of issues: intermediate shaft separation being the most common, but also bearing races coming out of the case or off the end of shafts. All of them can benefit from reshimming the shift drum.

Rear wheel bearing are tapered roller type - I'd remove the seals, clean and repack the bearings and install new seals. There are shims between one bearing and the central spacer, so don't misplace those. Front wheel bearings are a bit harder to remove, easy enough to grease them in place (with a grease gun and needle attachment). Swingarm pivot bearings should be cleaned and repacked. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on October 26, 2022, 10:36:33 AM
If the transmission has never had the original break-prone shift return spring replaced, then I'd definitely open it up to replace that. Input shaft and output shaft seals are likely old, so those and all o-rings replaced as well. Replace the clutch pushrod "seal" with six o-rings (I supply them for free to anyone in the US).

Five-speeds can have a number of issues: intermediate shaft separation being the most common, but also bearing races coming out of the case or off the end of shafts. All of them can benefit from reshimming the shift drum.

Rear wheel bearing are tapered roller type - I'd remove the seals, clean and repack the bearings and install new seals. There are shims between one bearing and the central spacer, so don't misplace those. Front wheel bearings are a bit harder to remove, easy enough to grease them in place (with a grease gun and needle attachment). Swingarm pivot bearings should be cleaned and repacked.

Thank you!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on October 29, 2022, 04:51:04 PM
Soooo... Having fun trying to source a ream main bearing. Gutsibits in UK has them is quoting with shipping. Machine shop said that since all is still standard, they'd check the old one and polish it up if it was good to go again. I have to take it down to them durning the week so might next week.

Any problem with reusing if they give it the ok? Or am I asking for trouble and better off doing whatever I can to get a new one?

Thanks again for all the help!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on October 29, 2022, 07:12:20 PM
If you have a reliable crank shop checking out the bearings and crank, then I would go with what they say. If they give you the size numbers and they don't add up to the book specs, ask them why they say they are fine. IIRR, your bike is fairly low miles. Crank and mains can last 1 hundred thousand plus miles if treated nicely.

Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on October 29, 2022, 08:51:54 PM
Ok thanks. Aside from chrome damage, which apparently was not present on the crank or cam, you’re right, 12k is very little.

Thank you again… I’ll let them take a look. Worth knowing my options.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: John A on October 29, 2022, 11:17:39 PM
I didn't mean to say you didn't.. but.. there is a learned "feel" in precision measuring. It is *easy* to be off by a half thousandth.. or more.. without considerable practice.





I learned from an old navy geezer who claimed he had a micrometer eye. He would even say what his tolerance’s were before he guessed. He had a knack all right for he was generally accurate.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on November 27, 2022, 08:08:15 PM
Hi all. All parts are ready and started reassembly. Gonna work on it in every available moment… it’s riding season in South Florida and anxious to get it on the road but still won’t cut any corners.

Speaking of which… gonna get the gear marks in the case measured tomorrow was told that if they’re less then .010” deep it’s fine. Was also told to check for pitting on the gear faces but don’t see any. A little on the shafts.

Thoughts? Not against replacing if needed but don’t wanna waste if not.


(https://i.ibb.co/ryLN2ph/2-DBA52-AF-CB57-4-C20-A56-D-91-EB3746-FEE3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ryLN2ph) (https://i.ibb.co/8zCZV8J/9-A82-CDA1-3-B27-4-F82-84-CA-CF64-B2-B841-DC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8zCZV8J) (https://i.ibb.co/2y0CBWh/C547579-C-518-D-44-C1-91-F4-30-C78-CE01845.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2y0CBWh) (https://i.ibb.co/MhXzgL4/37058114-0-E94-4582-84-D3-14-DA41-F9-AF46.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MhXzgL4) (https://i.ibb.co/w4C3SrS/4-A61842-C-773-F-417-E-B650-46-B13101-FF61.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w4C3SrS) (https://i.ibb.co/nrBRSF2/C06-B4698-F447-43-F5-B246-48-E27-DB754-ED.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nrBRSF2) (https://i.ibb.co/hYtzTRQ/80-FEBF09-4731-472-C-8-BA1-2-F28-D8-A404-EB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hYtzTRQ)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: cliffrod on November 28, 2022, 05:40:55 AM
No idea about the specs and actual measurements, but that doesn’t look good.   if it was mine I would replace the entire pump.  The wear and grooves on the shaft will not heal, nor will they lend any longevity to the aluminum pump body which will in turn lead to impaired pump gear agreement which will lead to reduced pump efficiency and ever lower pressure….  It’s a downward spiral.

I know a new pump is not cheap. This is the time to fix it properly.  If not, you’ll be fixing it again.  That’s no fun at all.

Edit-  Specification provided in the factory manual were based upon normal wear of engine components over time, caused by incidental wear caused by minor debris in the oil stream.   I doubt engineers were anticipating the catastrophic failure of the chrome plating, with subsequent catastrophic accelerated damage to the oil pump and other engine components.  If so, they would not have used chrome plated cylinders.

In general, factory specs are accurate with no need for interpretation.  In situations like this where hindsight provides much better perspective, those same specs may not be fully adequate.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on November 28, 2022, 07:16:08 AM
I hear ya, and will probably just replace it. Just trying to get a good perspective. There wasn’t any catastrophic damage from chrome. Very little chrome was missing from the top of the cylinder and likely went out the exhaust pipe. There was no other damage within the engine. I’ve had every part out and inspected. Anything that was replaced was do more to just sitting and pitting than anything else. The pump was the only thing that fell out a spec microscopically, and I was told it was probably fine anyway. But you’re right, probably best to take this one last hit now, and not have to think about it in the future.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Dave Swanson on November 28, 2022, 07:18:28 AM
I agree with cliffrod.  I would leave that pump on the shelf.   
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: cliffrod on November 28, 2022, 08:02:05 AM
I was in a similar position when I did my engine the first time. 

The engine was stuck with heads removed (for years) & pistons frozen in bores.  there didn’t seem to be any significant chrome loss below the rings.  It was all at and above the rings, which made sense to me.   on typical iron cylinder bores with stuck pistons,  that’s also where most damage is found.   There was no grand chorus of advice regarding chrome issues back then, either- my bike wasn’t even 20 yrs old at the time.  So I did the obvious work and never dove into the rest of the engine.  2-3 yrs later, it started growling and required a full rebuild when I really truly couldn’t afford it. 

If I had to guess, my oil pump probably looked like yours when I first did the cylinders.  It bore the brunt of the initial damage from initial chrome loss but ran and operated ok following the first engine rework.  As miles accrued, it continued to deteriorate until it became a liability.  The combination of dismissing oil pressure plus any remaining debris then wiped out the bearings, crank journals, tappet faces, etc.

Had I known, I would have gladly gone the extra distance in the beginning.  Replacing only the oil pump at that point would have saved a lot of money, grief and lost time on my bike when I was still young  and riding more.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on November 28, 2022, 03:03:25 PM
I was in a similar position when I did my engine the first time. 

The engine was stuck with heads removed (for years) & pistons frozen in bores.  there didn’t seem to be any significant chrome loss below the rings.  It was all at and above the rings, which made sense to me.   on typical iron cylinder bores with stuck pistons,  that’s also where most damage is found.   There was no grand chorus of advice regarding chrome issues back then, either- my bike wasn’t even 20 yrs old at the time.  So I did the obvious work and never dove into the rest of the engine.  2-3 yrs later, it started growling and required a full rebuild when I really truly couldn’t afford it. 

If I had to guess, my oil pump probably looked like yours when I first did the cylinders.  It bore the brunt of the initial damage from initial chrome loss but ran and operated ok following the first engine rework.  As miles accrued, it continued to deteriorate until it became a liability.  The combination of dismissing oil pressure plus any remaining debris then wiped out the bearings, crank journals, tappet faces, etc.

Had I known, I would have gladly gone the extra distance in the beginning.  Replacing only the oil pump at that point would have saved a lot of money, grief and lost time on my bike when I was still young  and riding more.

Understood...this one had just 12k miles but sat for 19 years and was recently brought back to life ...but they didn't check, know about or address the chrome cylinders. After crying like a baby when I realized I should on another thread, in contrast, I have gone thru every inch of it. Had the heads redone, new valves, guides, tappets. Crank and cam checked and polished, cleaned out the sludge trap. cylinders religned at Millennium, pistons checked and measured. New rings, new rear main bearing and rod bearings, front bearing checked and within spec. All new transmission gasket set, shift spring, rear drive gasket set, rear wheel and rear end bearing seals and will repack with grease(fronts too but not removing the bearings). Also changed out all the cables, checked the drums and clutch plates...(they were recently replaced and all look and measure as good). Probably leaving stuff out but there's a stack of boxes and envelopes from MGcycle on my workbench. Fortunately, like I said...there wasn't much if any chrome damage. But certainly won't have to worry about any showing up in the future.

Looks like I will replace the pump now too... just looking for best source.

Thank you and sorry for that hassle you had... I'm very thankful to be getting all this done now... whenever I mange to get it done, lol.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on November 28, 2022, 03:42:23 PM
IMO, the best pump is the one HMB sells, even though it's $$$$.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: cliffrod on November 28, 2022, 05:13:50 PM
. cylinders religned at Millennium, pistons checked and measured. New rings, .

Curious- where did you get rings?  My original cylinders and pistons are still here on the shelf.  Might check them and get rings.

I’m glad that you were open minded about the input here.  We all mean well, even if it may have seemed like a big pile-on of know-it-alls.  Personally, I’m very happy that my mistakes helped someone avoid the same problems and angst that I went through.  You’ll have a fantastic bike when you’re done. 

All that remains is to properly adjust and tune the big front brake once it’s on the road.  Poor adjustment and fatigued brake cables are main issues of poor performance.  It’s amazing how a single stretched or broken strand in the wound cable will wipe out much of the brake’s efficiency.  The cable balance bar will rack and you won’t even be able to fully operate the good cable to have half a brake.  Watch the balance bar where the two cables end at the hand lever.  It should always remain in the same orientation when you pull the lever so both cables operate evenly.  If it tips to favor one cable, that favored cable indicates a problem needing address.  It will never be a 1-2 finger brake like a disc brake.  But if you squeeze that lever like you’ve got a pair, it works fantastic.  To me, it’s much of the character of the bike.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on November 28, 2022, 06:07:26 PM
Curious- where did you get rings?  My original cylinders and pistons are still here on the shelf.  Might check them and get rings.

I’m glad that you were open minded about the input here.  We all mean well, even if it may have seemed like a big pile-on of know-it-alls.  Personally, I’m very happy that my mistakes helped someone avoid the same problems and angst that I went through.  You’ll have a fantastic bike when you’re done. 

All that remains is to properly adjust and tune the big front brake once it’s on the road.  Poor adjustment and fatigued brake cables are main issues of poor performance.  It’s amazing how a single stretched or broken strand in the wound cable will wipe out much of the brake’s efficiency.  The cable balance bar will rack and you won’t even be able to fully operate the good cable to have half a brake.  Watch the balance bar where the two cables end at the hand lever.  It should always remain in the same orientation when you pull the lever so both cables operate evenly.  If it tips to favor one cable, that favored cable indicates a problem needing address.  It will never be a 1-2 finger brake like a disc brake.  But if you squeeze that lever like you’ve got a pair, it works fantastic.  To me, it’s much of the character of the bike.

I really am extraordinarily grateful for this forum and all of you in it. I COULD NOT and WOULD NOT be able to do this without it and all of you(heck wouldn't have known I needed to til/if the engine gave out).

Purchasing a Moto Guzzi... especially one this old... is a leap of faith. I have some mechanical background but there's no warranty and no service nearby(or almost anywhere). This forum and the global cult of Guzzi gave me inspiration and faith to do it.

I turn 50 in January... as does this bike... and am also Italian and always admired Guzzi's from afar...  so it was a 50th birthday gift to myself. The short time I had and rode it was just glorious... and affirming. I've had Harleys and a Ducati but this MG and it being of that vintage... it's like riding with an old friend. And I so look forward to doing it again.

Regarding the brakes... yeah I did that high wire act to get the fronts worked out. Initially it was like I had to send a text to Italy to let them know I wanted to stop, wait for a response... and with the time zone difference that always took a while(original anti-lock I guess?).

To be fair my bike right before this was a Ducati Scrambler 1100... it was retro but the brakes were eye socket emptyingly not.

I got those old four shoes working better but definitely needed new cables, so they're on. Rear actually was much better but replaced that cable and the clutch cable as well.

Thank you all again so much... can't wait to post video of it running. But I'm sure there will be a bunch before then.

(https://i.ibb.co/W3gJkmd/67469082054-A0-D66033-5-CB5-49-AB-89-F4-76460-CEA7-CF5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W3gJkmd)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on November 28, 2022, 06:13:10 PM
Curious- where did you get rings?  My original cylinders and pistons are still here on the shelf.  Might check them and get rings.

Sorry... this is where I got the rings:

https://www.dlastore.com/piston-ring-set-for-moto-guzzi-v7-sport-750cc-motorcycle-82-5mm.html

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on December 02, 2022, 09:14:44 PM
Anyone know where I can get the tool to install the rear main seal? Messed one up using just a rubber mallet. MGCycle Carrie’s them for $35 but no stock. Foreign sites want a fortune. I’d gladly pay someone who has one to borrow it. Otherwise I’ll find a socket and just use that and the mallet.

Thank you!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 03, 2022, 08:31:12 AM
Anyone know where I can get the tool to install the rear main seal? Messed one up using just a rubber mallet. MGCycle Carrie’s them for $35 but no stock. Foreign sites want a fortune. I’d gladly pay someone who has one to borrow it. Otherwise I’ll find a socket and just use that and the mallet.

Thank you!!

Do you mean this one? https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=80&products_id=2962

I have one I never use, will sell or loan it to you if you'd like.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on December 03, 2022, 11:15:44 AM
Yup that’s it!!

If you’d like to keep it on hand I’d gladly pay to borrow it as well as shipping not ways. If you don’t want it around anymore I’ll buy it. Up to you.

Thank you!!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 03, 2022, 11:27:11 AM
Yup that’s it!!

If you’d like to keep it on hand I’d gladly pay to borrow it as well as shipping not ways. If you don’t want it around anymore I’ll buy it. Up to you.

Thank you!!!

Pm'ed you.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on December 04, 2022, 04:44:38 PM
Ok got the tool on the way.

Another question... where can I get an oiling dowel for the new rear main? Or do I pull the old one and how?

Thanks again, again... and again!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 04, 2022, 05:07:53 PM
Ok got the tool on the way.

Another question... where can I get an oiling dowel for the new rear main? Or do I pull the old one and how?

Thanks again, again... and again!

Remove and reuse the dowels from the old bearings. They should push out easily with a long punch or screwdriver.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on December 05, 2022, 08:45:08 AM
Remove and reuse the dowels from the old bearings. They should push out easily with a long punch or screwdriver.

Ok thanks... Original front main is good so don't have to do anything with that one... just the rear.

Thanks!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on December 13, 2022, 05:41:56 PM
Anyone know the mystery torque spec on these three camshaft flange screws? The line is blank in the manual and on all sites that I can find that post it as well.


(https://i.ibb.co/yhWdGPQ/Screenshot-2022-12-13-at-6-40-10-PM.png) (https://ibb.co/yhWdGPQ)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on December 13, 2022, 05:59:57 PM
You do not want to know. Just nip em up, they'll be fine.  :smiley:
FWIW.. I've seen torque specs where I just said, "No. Not going to do that.." (shrug)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: bmc5733946 on December 13, 2022, 06:44:57 PM
If you are really worried, give them a little blue loc-tite, before you "nip" them up as Chuck suggests.

Brian
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 13, 2022, 07:17:45 PM
M6-1.00 into alloy - 84 in/lbs.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on December 13, 2022, 09:17:32 PM
M6-1.00 into alloy - 84 in/lbs.

Thanks... and good shout on the loctite... will do!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on December 15, 2022, 09:26:12 AM
Anyone have a couple oil pump shaft woodruff keys lying around? I lost then one I popped out of my old pump. I'd gladly pay a few bucks and for the stamps. MGCycle has a minimum order of $10 plus $9 shipping. I've spent a thousand dollars there in the past few months but need nothing else right now, lol.

Thanks either way and have an amazing holiday season!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 15, 2022, 09:40:49 AM
Anyone have a couple oil pump shaft woodruff keys lying around? I lost then one I popped out of my old pump. I'd gladly pay a few bucks and for the stamps. MGCycle has a minimum order of $10 plus $9 shipping. I've spent a thousand dollars there in the past few months but need nothing else right now, lol.

Thanks either way and have an amazing holiday season!!

I probably do. Which type do you need? The little half-moon type or the square type?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Moparnut72 on December 15, 2022, 11:10:40 AM
My local hardware store has some in stock. You might check yours. Do It Best is mine. If the don't have the exact one get an oversized one and file it down.
kk
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on December 15, 2022, 04:58:52 PM
I probably do. Which type do you need? The little half-moon type or the square type?

Yeah, the little half moon one. That’s suckers on my garage floor somewhere, but damned if I can find it.Lol
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: cliffrod on December 15, 2022, 05:05:11 PM
It may not help this time.  but I’ve found that when I drop and lose something on the floor, if I can lay my head on the floor so my eye can look straight across/along the surface plane of the floor that I can see & find things that I would have never found otherwise. Add a flashlight to point where my eye is looking and it adds shadows to help things be even more visible. 

Sometimes you get a dirty cheek, but it’s worth it to find that one off washer or piece of unobtanium…
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on December 16, 2022, 06:07:16 PM
Should I use any high temp silicone gasket on the rear main flange surface where it slides into the case, and in the gasket and bolts?

Thanks again!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: smdl on December 16, 2022, 06:34:50 PM
Should I use any high temp silicone gasket on the rear main flange surface where it slides into the card, and in the gasket and bolts?

Thanks again!!

I always follow Charlie's recommendations.  Check out his post here:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=90503.0

Cheers,
Shaun
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on December 18, 2022, 04:00:22 PM
While waiting on a brand spanking new rear Main I’m resealing the rear end and the tranny. Before I ruin and have to order more parts, any tricks on getting this seal out?


(https://i.ibb.co/Vx55jNx/A9-E611-BC-EF66-4-F3-F-AE73-945-B2-FCFE24-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vx55jNx)


And anyone know where there's a diagram, instructions, etc on reassembly of the rear drive? Don't want to miss anything.

For example I think this spring ring came out of the spot in the following pic and the third pic is with in in there. Fits but is that where it goes? I believe I have another larger one of these from somewhere else as well.

(https://i.ibb.co/C1SfJsQ/2-CA1326-B-026-A-47-E4-8280-9-CE6-EE72-D163.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C1SfJsQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/XW2wRgV/5582-CF7-A-FD14-4-E45-A1-D0-EB8-D29-BAD570.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XW2wRgV)

(https://i.ibb.co/5WZ7bMj/4267-FCE5-9-D6-D-4884-8363-89-FC9-C31-C282.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5WZ7bMj)

Shop manual is not much help.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 18, 2022, 06:49:42 PM
While waiting on a brand spanking new rear Main I’m resealing the rear end and the tranny. Before I ruin and have to order more parts, any tricks on getting this seal out?


(https://i.ibb.co/Vx55jNx/A9-E611-BC-EF66-4-F3-F-AE73-945-B2-FCFE24-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vx55jNx)


And anyone know where there's a diagram, instructions, etc on reassembly of the rear drive? Don't want to miss anything.

For example I think this spring ring came out of the spot in the following pic and the third pic is with in in there. Fits but is that where it goes? I believe I have another larger one of these from somewhere else as well.

(https://i.ibb.co/C1SfJsQ/2-CA1326-B-026-A-47-E4-8280-9-CE6-EE72-D163.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C1SfJsQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/XW2wRgV/5582-CF7-A-FD14-4-E45-A1-D0-EB8-D29-BAD570.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XW2wRgV)

(https://i.ibb.co/5WZ7bMj/4267-FCE5-9-D6-D-4884-8363-89-FC9-C31-C282.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5WZ7bMj)

Shop manual is not much help.

To remove that seal, I insert a wide, flat blade screwdriver (not too far in so that it doesn't gouge the alloy casting) and twist. The spring came from that seal.

How far apart is your rear drive - stripped completely to a bare housing? Or?
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on December 18, 2022, 07:43:09 PM
To remove that seal, I insert a wide, flat blade screwdriver (not too far in so that it doesn't gouge the alloy casting) and twist. The spring came from that seal.

How far apart is your rear drive - stripped completely to a bare housing? Or?

Thanks again Charlie… doh! Yeah I noticed those in the seals but thought this was something else. Promise I’m a bright guy, just a few feet out of my depth. Be better once I get this and the bottom end of the motor done. Here’s where I’m at… it was all working well so probably shoulda left it but forum kept saying might as well check everything. Gonna get far enough into the tranny to replace the return spring and whichever seals I ruin long the way but that’s it.


(https://i.ibb.co/DwP1fXC/68-FA00-B4-653-F-4-E13-943-C-E8-B3-AAC0507-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DwP1fXC)

(https://i.ibb.co/QMMyB3G/F3-AA99-DE-1-AEF-4-DC3-8-A20-0-CF6715-EE32-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QMMyB3G)

(https://i.ibb.co/k8WcR6T/8-D3418-DF-0-CBD-481-E-AC4-E-557-E0505609-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k8WcR6T)

(https://i.ibb.co/NsCcFBV/8-FE58556-F16-D-470-D-B31-D-1859-A78-C0153.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NsCcFBV)

(https://i.ibb.co/zZSgh64/C3-B0-B953-B031-4-D5-D-A253-9-D9-D3105-A348.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zZSgh64)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on December 19, 2022, 10:08:56 AM
If you're on Facebook, I have lots of assembly photos on my business page, including nearly step-by-step of the rear drive. Starts here: https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=4525474664241296&set=a.4310288142426617

The small seal of the rear drive is a little harder to replace than the large one, but since you already have the 'drive apart, it would be best to replace it now.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Tom H on December 19, 2022, 11:13:18 AM
While waiting on a brand spanking new rear Main I’m resealing the rear end and the tranny. Before I ruin and have to order more parts, any tricks on getting this seal out?


(https://i.ibb.co/Vx55jNx/A9-E611-BC-EF66-4-F3-F-AE73-945-B2-FCFE24-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vx55jNx)


And anyone know where there's a diagram, instructions, etc on reassembly of the rear drive? Don't want to miss anything.

For example I think this spring ring came out of the spot in the following pic and the third pic is with in in there. Fits but is that where it goes? I believe I have another larger one of these from somewhere else as well.

(https://i.ibb.co/C1SfJsQ/2-CA1326-B-026-A-47-E4-8280-9-CE6-EE72-D163.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C1SfJsQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/XW2wRgV/5582-CF7-A-FD14-4-E45-A1-D0-EB8-D29-BAD570.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XW2wRgV)

(https://i.ibb.co/5WZ7bMj/4267-FCE5-9-D6-D-4884-8363-89-FC9-C31-C282.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5WZ7bMj)

Shop manual is not much help.

If I'm understanding the pictures of where you found the spring, it's the swing arm drive shaft bearing area.

That spring, looks to me like the spring used on an oil seal. No oil seal where you found that.

There is a seal on the output shaft of the trans, but I'm pretty sure that spring is too big for that seal.

Just a thought,
Tom
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on January 24, 2023, 11:16:30 AM
Hi all!!!

Sorry for lack of posts... Charlie has been assisting via email and is a super hero. Making progress. Transmission and rear drive are reassembled after checking, replacing seals, shift return spring, gaskets. All brake cables, etc changed out. Still waiting on a brand new Rear Main after not being satisfied with the used one I had. Hoping it'll be here within the next few weeks as I'm running out of other stuff to do, lol. Have everything for the motor prepped and ready of the day that puppy arrives.

I'll grease wheel and rear end bearings and replace seals today. I have the bottom frame rails, rear end and center stand cleaned up and gonna hit them with some semi gloss black later int he week. Main frame is pretty clean, and seemingly somewhat painted by previous owner...  so I'll just touch it up a bit. Might clean up and spray the underside of the seat too.

Thank you all so much for the time and support... I'll try to keep this more updated... especially once I get back on the motor.

I cannot wait to ride again!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: vintagehoarder on January 24, 2023, 01:23:33 PM
Ok so since I was read the riot act(with the best of intentions and probably saved me a lot of trouble), going to bite the bullet and get the cylinders replated my Millennium. Got a quote for $600 including sending the pistons and them checking the piston fitting afterward and ring spacing... so not bad.

Will post every step, screw up, bungle and win here for reference for those that come after.

Got the pan off to check for chrome. Doesn't look like much of anything but a few tiny bits. Anyone with better eyes please take a look... anything I should be worried about?

Working on valve covers an beyond now... so we'll see how the cyls look inside.


(https://i.ibb.co/SnqGgGR/IMG-1278.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SnqGgGR)

(https://i.ibb.co/3MBFwC0/IMG-1277.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3MBFwC0)

(https://i.ibb.co/yq0mKzq/IMG-1279.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yq0mKzq)


Cadre used them for my 73 Eldo couldn't be happier.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 25, 2023, 07:28:01 AM
Quote
Charlie has been assisting via email and is a super hero.

That is a fact. I truly don't know how he has the time to do all he does for the Guzzi Community and still run a business. Charlie gets a double Attaboy.  :smiley:
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on January 26, 2023, 07:11:09 AM
That is a fact. I truly don't know how he has the time to do all he does for the Guzzi Community and still run a business. Charlie gets a double Attaboy.  :smiley:

You said it... he's really an amazing guy. I'm so appreciative.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Scout63 on January 26, 2023, 07:26:33 AM
+1 Kudos to Charlie.  I have to imagine he’s broken a lot of motorcycles in order to know so much.

I sent my v7 Sport cylinders and pistons off to Millenium a week or so ago.  They called with a price almost immediately.  About $570.00 to plate both.  Very reasonable considering Gilardonis are more if you can get them and the bike keeps its original jugs. I can’t wait to get them back.


(https://i.ibb.co/Fbv8H6d/F7579596-A5-D3-4-E30-ADE3-49-ED9-B76-A03-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fbv8H6d)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on January 27, 2023, 01:17:25 PM
+1 Kudos to Charlie.  I have to imagine he’s broken a lot of motorcycles in order to know so much.

I sent my v7 Sport cylinders and pistons off to Millenium a week or so ago.  They called with a price almost immediately.  About $570.00 to plate both.  Very reasonable considering Gilardonis are more if you can get them and the bike keeps its original jugs. I can’t wait to get them back.


(https://i.ibb.co/Fbv8H6d/F7579596-A5-D3-4-E30-ADE3-49-ED9-B76-A03-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fbv8H6d)


Yeah mine took a bit but came back looking like new!

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: s1120 on January 28, 2023, 03:55:53 AM
+1 Kudos to Charlie.  I have to imagine he’s broken a lot of motorcycles in order to know so much.

I sent my v7 Sport cylinders and pistons off to Millenium a week or so ago.  They called with a price almost immediately.  About $570.00 to plate both.  Very reasonable considering Gilardonis are more if you can get them and the bike keeps its original jugs. I can’t wait to get them back.


(https://i.ibb.co/Fbv8H6d/F7579596-A5-D3-4-E30-ADE3-49-ED9-B76-A03-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fbv8H6d)



That really is a fair price. When I was looking at a T3 a few years ago all I was seeing for replacements was about a grand by the time I got them to my door. Also as you said, you get to keep the stock jugs.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on February 03, 2023, 03:51:11 PM
Finally got a NOS rear main... and about to put the motor back together... until!

So I spoke with someone that had worked on my bike back bafiore I had it.. went thru three rear main seals. He told me to double check the crank for pitting where the seal rides.. and it has some. Spoke to the machine shop that "checked and polished it" and he claimed he was surprised his guy let it go like this and advised me to being it to a crankshaft specialist they send them to for grinding... if they need it. So that guy, who really seems to know... measures the ring bearing area as out of round... showed me. Also the timing side is out of spec. So both of those need to be taken one undersize, and now I need a front bearing and new rod bearings(anyone need a brand new standard set?). Regarding where the seal rides... three options. Install the seal just a 16th inward our outward so it rides elsewhere, or get a sleeve/bad for the crank and he'll install it. He also says he's not sure that the way it is actually would have hurt the seal.. it was probably one of the other issues causing the leak. Anyone know where I can get a band/sleeve for that part of the crank? Also... for what its worth, probably going to get a partial refund form the machine shop... owner seems decent and they had a good rep... maybe the tech looked at mine on a Friday afternoon, lol. But either way, so thankful I caught it now! They guy that had worked on my bike before said it was mean to be that we crossed paths that day... and I can't disagree.


(https://i.ibb.co/ykky77Y/IMG-2294.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ykky77Y)

(https://i.ibb.co/F38mjfH/IMG-2293.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F38mjfH)


Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Frenchfrog on February 03, 2023, 04:37:55 PM
The sleeves are available from bearing and seal suppliers.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on February 03, 2023, 04:55:30 PM
The sleeves are available from bearing and seal suppliers.

Gotcha... yeah found SKF and Sturdy sleeves so far but none in the right size. Assumedly they come in fairly common sizes and the MG is not.

If anyone knows of a manufacturer that does... Mine is 52.91mm or 2.083 inches in diameter where the seal rides. That portion of the shaft is about 10mm wide.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Frenchfrog on February 04, 2023, 02:31:05 AM
Bugger......
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on February 04, 2023, 09:38:57 AM
Bugger......

 :laugh: :laugh: My reaction as well... but figured if someone here had found one previously buy might have a lead. Custom ones can be made but so far only in bulk.

Thanks though and have an amazing day!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Frenchfrog on February 04, 2023, 11:08:48 AM
You too Rich ! lets hope you can find a sleeve...myself and many others are possibly going to need the same fix too
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 04, 2023, 12:15:07 PM
:laugh: :laugh: My reaction as well... but figured if someone here had found one previously buy might have a lead. Custom ones can be made but so far only in bulk.

Thanks though and have an amazing day!

Have you tried contacting "motomatt" on the other forum I sent you a link to? Maybe he can ask the machine shop he used where they got the sleeve they installed. 
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on February 04, 2023, 12:39:21 PM
Have you tried contacting "motomatt" on the other forum I sent you a link to? Maybe he can ask the machine shop he used where they got the sleeve they installed.

Nope. Let me dig into that email and get it. Thanks again!!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on February 04, 2023, 01:23:01 PM
Have you tried contacting "motomatt" on the other forum I sent you a link to? Maybe he can ask the machine shop he used where they got the sleeve they installed.

Yup... answer was there. They ground it down to fit within the closest of the available sleeves... 2.063. The .01(times two) sleeve thickness brought it back up to spec at 2.083. Mine measures at 2.085 right now with my fumbly hands. So looks like it'll work!

https://www.skf.com/us/products/industrial-seals/power-transmission-seals/wear-sleeves/skf-speedi-sleeve/productid-99205

Thank you again Charlie!! And I went ahead and donated over there since I got the information I needed. Also will peruse that thread and site for other pertinent tidbits.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Frenchfrog on February 04, 2023, 02:08:08 PM
Great info...thanks to both of you
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: MattP on February 05, 2023, 02:05:12 PM
look why don,t you use a good stock 850 t t3 1000 crank and just make shims for under the clinders save about a thou vasiline up the v7 sport crank and save it everything will bolt togeather I did this abuut 50 years ago also instaled 1000 pistons nobody  would know the difference except the guy who wacked the throttle.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on February 06, 2023, 02:15:56 PM
look why don,t you use a good stock 850 t t3 1000 crank and just make shims for under the clinders save about a thou vasiline up the v7 sport crank and save it everything will bolt togeather I did this abuut 50 years ago also instaled 1000 pistons nobody  would know the difference except the guy who wacked the throttle.

Great idea... but trying to stay as stock as possible.

Thanks!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on February 06, 2023, 04:58:51 PM
I would just have a crank grinder take off a few thousandths, maybe 2 or 3. The seal will still fit plenty tight.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: matt franklin on February 06, 2023, 08:40:35 PM
Glad I could be of service!

Matt
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: matt franklin on February 06, 2023, 09:06:30 PM
Forgot to add:  buy SKF speedi-sleeve from Rock auto and save some dough.  SKF p/n 99205.

Matt
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on February 07, 2023, 05:30:48 AM
Forgot to add:  buy SKF speedi-sleeve from Rock auto and save some dough.  SKF p/n 99205.

Matt

Thanks Matt! Yeah grabbed two(just in case, lol) off eBay of about $33 each.
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on February 07, 2023, 06:54:09 AM
I would just have a crank grinder take off a few thousandths, maybe 2 or 3. The seal will still fit plenty tight.

Thanks Charlie. I'll bring it all to the crank specialist, including the seal, and see what he thinks will be the best approach. This seems like the least(lol, edit) intrusive option so, if the sleeve becomes unnecessary, that would be great!

Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Scout63 on February 21, 2023, 09:51:01 PM
Thread bump and realignment - I got my v7 Sport cylinders back from Millenium today.  They look fantastic.  Who says beauty isn’t on the inside? I like the idea of keeping the original cylinders. It was just over $600.00 with shipping, so still less than a pair of Gilardonis.


(https://i.ibb.co/KXfKQtL/A4-E7-CBDD-7860-4484-A29-B-A5-F57-DD03022.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KXfKQtL)

(https://i.ibb.co/Wg2KHnG/11-FB1-A3-E-EF32-47-EE-892-C-4506-B2724-B34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wg2KHnG)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on February 28, 2023, 07:45:21 AM
Thread bump and realignment - I got my v7 Sport cylinders back from Millenium today.  They look fantastic.  Who says beauty isn’t on the inside? I like the idea of keeping the original cylinders. It was just over $600.00 with shipping, so still less than a pair of Gilardonis.


(https://i.ibb.co/KXfKQtL/A4-E7-CBDD-7860-4484-A29-B-A5-F57-DD03022.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KXfKQtL)

(https://i.ibb.co/Wg2KHnG/11-FB1-A3-E-EF32-47-EE-892-C-4506-B2724-B34.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wg2KHnG)


Beeeuutiful! Yeah mine too... like new! They do good work!
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on April 09, 2023, 06:35:34 PM
So sorry for the lack of posts! There's been progress, although not nearly as much as there should have been.
I was concerned about the crankshaft where the seal rides... there was some pitting and a history of leaks, so after some research and deliberation I had it cleaned up. Ended up only needing about a thousandth off, so didn't need any sleeve.

I have two SKF Speedi-Sleeves if anyone needs them.

Also turned out the crank at the front main and at the rods needed to be takin down to 1st under. So got all that done, and back and installed.


(https://i.ibb.co/F6fLpB6/IMG-2545.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F6fLpB6)

(https://i.ibb.co/yVMcbcj/IMG-2546.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yVMcbcj)

(https://i.ibb.co/LkvwHp3/IMG-2594.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LkvwHp3)

(https://i.ibb.co/HTDpY4b/IMG-2595.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HTDpY4b)

(https://i.ibb.co/kX9c8Rf/IMG-2596.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kX9c8Rf)
Title: Re: 1973 V7 Sport Cylinder Relining Millennium
Post by: Richiez22908 on May 01, 2023, 06:49:38 PM
Oil pump, etc installed. Gears on but not mounted. Unfortunately my cam gear does not have the two painted teeth... only one tiny spotch or paint on one tooth. I lined it up exactly as it was, and then turned it to match an image from Charlie and the one tooth does end up where one of the painted teeth should be. So likely it's ok but will check once the head and valves are on to be absolutely sure.


(https://i.ibb.co/d7H5T1z/IMG-2756-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d7H5T1z)

(https://i.ibb.co/4RKDZfr/image2-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4RKDZfr)

(https://i.ibb.co/CzhZRVV/IMG-2732-copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CzhZRVV)