What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil

[jones525]

This article is what made me move to Mobil1 15/50 in all of my current machines, it's a good read...

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/74198-case-using-mobil-1-15w-50-automobile-oil-motorcycle.html

[Lank]

I have always used Mobil One 15-50.  Even heated some 10-60 and some 15-50 to varying temps and did a cursory viscosity test.  The 15-50 was same at lower temps but actually a bit stiffer at higher than normal engine temps.   I run it through a paint strainer and you can certainly see the weight that way.  Not scientific but good enough for me.  So why 10-60?  Who knows, but I bet it has something to do with the way the engine sounds when its started, kinka clanky and a heavier oil kinda tones that down some.  Oil is so well engineered now I personally would not be adverse to using 5-20 in any of my motorcycles.  I do respect others opinions but will always do my own thing.  15-50 Mobil One is not "Inferior" to any oil, not what I use in my tractor, lawnmower or automobiles but its what I use in air cooled motorcycles.

[Kev m]

It's rare that a manufacturer doesn't recommended a specific brand.

[kballowe]

It's rare that a manufacturer doesn't recommended a specific brand.

My Triumph owner's manual said "Mobil 1 15W-50" and it was a JASO-MA motorcycle-specific oil (different from the automotive version) that seemed to be available only at the Triumph dealers.

 ;)

[Lannis]

It's rare that a manufacturer doesn't recommended a specific brand.

Yep, the Stelvio manual does recommend AGIP 10W-60 but then says that any good brand of oil meeting the same grade and specs will be fine ....

Just sitting down and doing the math over the years (and the older I get, the more I tend to think in "years"), I find that looking to save a few bucks by buying some sort of off-spec oil, and doing the engineering in your head to justify that it will be OK and will go through the oil passages the same, behave the same at temperature, form the same hydro-wedge in the plain bearings, etc ....

.... well, it just doesn't add up.   Not for me.

Lannis

[Gliderjohn]

For what it is worth when I took my Norge 8V in for the 1,000 mile services the dealer put dino 10-40 in. I did not realize it until I looked at the service ticket at home. I had to ride the bike home in around 100 degree weather. At some stops my oil light would fliker some  but not stay on. As soon as I obtained the 10-60 I never saw anymore of the oil light.
GliderJohn

[Kev m]

On the Ducati link and referenced MCN test data is anyone sure that M1 15-50 still uses the same formulation as it did during that now dated test?

Don't get me wrong,  I've used that oil in various bikes in the past, but I'm not sold it's necessarily the best choice these days,  not for all my bikes.

[Calimero]

http://www.americanagip.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14_6&products_id=6

No Sweat, right to the door. EXACTLY what my expensive steel and alloy flying bits need per the manufacturer.

Hunter

 ;-T That's what I did too, no issues at all

[kirb]

It's rare that a manufacturer doesn't recommended a specific brand.

Buell suggests HD syn3 or whatever HD sells now.
Yamaha suggested Yamaha oil
Honda suggested Honda oil
EH suggested EH oil
MG suggested Agip

Guzzi was the only oil that suggested a 'brand'. Everyone else suggested whatever re-branded oil they sell under the MFG name. ALL of them suggest alternative oil of a similar spec because they have to (unless they give it away).

[Kev m]

Buell suggests HD syn3 or whatever HD sells now.
Yamaha suggested Yamaha oil
Honda suggested Honda oil
EH suggested EH oil
MG suggested Agip

Guzzi was the only oil that suggested a 'brand'. Everyone else suggested whatever re-branded oil they sell under the MFG name. ALL of them suggest alternative oil of a similar spec because they have to (unless they give it away).

Re-branded or branded - PoTAYto - poTAHto - same deal since there isn't a brand I know of that makes their own oil.

My point is pretty much every manufacturer RECOMENDS a viscosity or viscosity range of either a particular brand OR their own rebranded product (or if not JUST a viscosity/range/type, but that's rare these days).

Another example would be that Mini cars recommend Castrol Syntec (and I think BMW does too, meaning they don't have their own "branded" product).

[roofus]

Yep, the Stelvio manual does recommend AGIP 10W-60 but then says that any good brand of oil meeting the same grade and specs will be fine ....

Just sitting down and doing the math over the years (and the older I get, the more I tend to think in "years"), I find that looking to save a few bucks by buying some sort of off-spec oil, and doing the engineering in your head to justify that it will be OK and will go through the oil passages the same, behave the same at temperature, form the same hydro-wedge in the plain bearings, etc ....

.... well, it just doesn't add up.   Not for me.

Lannis

I agree . . . it's foolish to scrimp on the quality of oil or the frequency of changes!

[sign216]

Last year I got my AGIP 10w-60 on Ebay, for a fair price.  I just checked, and there's nothing economical there now.

It's another option.

[Crusty]

There are probably a few different oils that would work O.K. in my Norge, and some of them might even work better than the recommended AGIP 10W-60. However, I'm not a petro chemical engineer, and I don't know which may be better, and which might cause serious problems to occur quickly. I do know that if I use the oil that's recommended by the factory, that my engine will probably outlive the rock of Gibraltar.
That's good enough for me.

[Thunderbox]

Elf 10W60 Campione Motorcycle oil can be had at the Oil Watehouse.  Great oil great price.

http://theoilwarehouse.com/?mainURL=/store/item/2ad9z/Motorcycle_ATV_Golf_Cart_Scooter_Oils/Elf_MOTO_Sport_4_10W-60_Campione.html

[muzak]

+1 for Red Line.

Car Quest will get Red Line Oil (10w60) next day from their supplier. It's what I've been using the past few oil changes. So far so good and meets all the requirements.

[HDGoose]

I have always used Mobil One 15-50.  Even heated some 10-60 and some 15-50 to varying temps and did a cursory viscosity test.  The 15-50 was same at lower temps but actually a bit stiffer at higher than normal engine temps.   I run it through a paint strainer and you can certainly see the weight that way.  Not scientific but good enough for me.  So why 10-60?  Who knows, but I bet it has something to do with the way the engine sounds when its started, kinka clanky and a heavier oil kinda tones that down some.  Oil is so well engineered now I personally would not be adverse to using 5-20 in any of my motorcycles.  I do respect others opinions but will always do my own thing.  15-50 Mobil One is not "Inferior" to any oil, not what I use in my tractor, lawnmower or automobiles but its what I use in air cooled motorcycles.

When is the last time you tore down a Guzzi motor on a CARC bike?

[Idontwantapickle]

When is the last time you tore down a Guzzi motor on a CARC bike?

I love a January oil thread!!!

[Unkept]

I love a January oil thread!!!

I've been quietly reading them myself.

We could use our popcorn oil in my V11 Lemans right?  ;D

[dilligaf]

I love a January oil thread!!!

+1
Matt

[Lank]

When is the last time you tore down a Guzzi motor on a CARC bike?

NEVER  and I don't expect too either.  I ran 15-50 in my R1150GS for about 50,000 miles and didn't have to tear it down either.   Those engines are pretty similar except for the BMW has quite a bit better low end grunt and a few more valves.  I don't remember what BMW recommended for their bike but I bet it wasn't Mobil One either.

[Tony C]

I love a January oil argument to.  **C ::)

 I am not sure why it is so hard to follow the recommendations in the manual.   ???  Don't get it. 

I run 10/60 in my Griso 8V as recommended.  I have a case of Agip in the garage.  Done.
Tony C

[rodekyll]

I gots me this here horsie what eats oats and grass.  I gots me a doggie wot's a mammal too.  It's so darn similar that it's even gots hisself the same counts on tails, legs, and earholes.  So it should follow, like my doggie follows the horsie, that the doggie eats oats and grass, too.  Sometimes alfalfa.  But I can't see buying diffrnt foods for them when they seem so much alike.

[Stormtruck2]

I gots me this here horsie what eats oats and grass.  I gots me a doggie wot's a mammal too.  It's so darn similar that it's even gots hisself the same counts on tails, legs, and earholes.  So it should follow, like my doggie follows the horsie, that the doggie eats oats and grass, too.  Sometimes alfalfa.  But I can't see buying diffrnt foods for them when they seem so much alike.

 :+1
Best one I've read yet. ;-T ;-T

[PeteT]

OK.... one more attempt to put this all into perspective.  Let's say I go to the nursery and buy a potted palm tree for my home.  I water it every day with ordinary tap water and it thrives.  Should I be watering it with bottled water from Fiji- so that it will feel more comfortable?  Personally, I think that would be a waste of my limited monetary resources that could better be applied elsewhere.  If the guy at the nursery pointed out to me that I should water it only with bottled water, I would probably water it with bottled water-  but only because I don't know all that much about potted palm trees.  But- if I felt comfortable with my knowlege of potted palm trees, I would probably be tempted to experiment a little, while closely monitoring the health of the palm tree. 


Have any of us, to date, bothered to mount temp and pressure gauges to, lets say an Ambo and a modern 8 valve bike and actually compared the conditions the oil has to operate under- taking into consideration, of course, the bearing loading and surface speeds and other differences between the two?  Has anyone even compared the two externally using an infrared thermometer?  Until we do this, we're operating more on emotion than logic.   


Back when I was in Aircraft Mechanic School, I was taught that engine oil served five functions:
1).  Lubrication of moving parts.
2).  cooling.
3).  corrosion control.
4).  cleaning.
and
5).  cushioning.
Are there any of these functions that are done satisfactorly by 10w60, and not by, say a 20w50 of the same quality?  Other than viscosity at the extreme end of the range, I've got to say "no".  As I pointed out before, MG probably likes the idea of a SAE60 oil during the break in process, which also happens to coincide with the warranty peroid.  The world is full of folks who don't understand what's going on during the break in peroid, and don't always operate an engine in ways most conuctive to proper running in.  If I were Guzzi, I'd want that extra layer of protection against warranty claims, too. 

But what about a properly run in engine?  Is it still necessary to spend three times as much on oil?  Actually, I don't know for sure.  But until I see actual data proving that using anything but Genuine Italian 10w-60 in my small block will result in total mechanical devistation and/or possible excommunication, I will continue to suspect that this notion is more superstition than proven science.  Primitive man feared the eclipse.... until it was better understood.

If you listen closely, and understand the language, the engine will tell you all you need to know.  The trick is to pay attention while it's whispering... and not make it get your attention by throwing a rod through the case.

PeteT.

 

[rodekyll]

You should have gone back to school the second day to learn the rest of the story.

[Idontwantapickle]

OK.... one more attempt to put this all into perspective.  Let's say I go to the nursery and buy a potted palm tree for my home.  I water it every day with ordinary tap water and it thrives.  Should I be watering it with bottled water from Fiji- so that it will feel more comfortable?  Personally, I think that would be a waste of my limited monetary resources that could better be applied elsewhere.  If the guy at the nursery pointed out to me that I should water it only with bottled water, I would probably water it with bottled water-  but only because I don't know all that much about potted palm trees.  But- if I felt comfortable with my knowlege of potted palm trees, I would probably be tempted to experiment a little, while closely monitoring the health of the palm tree. 


Have any of us, to date, bothered to mount temp and pressure gauges to, lets say an Ambo and a modern 8 valve bike and actually compared the conditions the oil has to operate under- taking into consideration, of course, the bearing loading and surface speeds and other differences between the two?  Has anyone even compared the two externally using an infrared thermometer?  Until we do this, we're operating more on emotion than logic.   


Back when I was in Aircraft Mechanic School, I was taught that engine oil served five functions:
1).  Lubrication of moving parts.
2).  cooling.
3).  corrosion control.
4).  cleaning.
and
5).  cushioning.
Are there any of these functions that are done satisfactorly by 10w60, and not by, say a 20w50 of the same quality?  Other than viscosity at the extreme end of the range, I've got to say "no".  As I pointed out before, MG probably likes the idea of a SAE60 oil during the break in process, which also happens to coincide with the warranty peroid.  The world is full of folks who don't understand what's going on during the break in peroid, and don't always operate an engine in ways most conuctive to proper running in.  If I were Guzzi, I'd want that extra layer of protection against warranty claims, too. 

But what about a properly run in engine?  Is it still necessary to spend three times as much on oil?  Actually, I don't know for sure.  But until I see actual data proving that using anything but Genuine Italian 10w-60 in my small block will result in total mechanical devistation and/or possible excommunication, I will continue to suspect that this notion is more superstition than proven science.  Primitive man feared the eclipse.... until it was better understood.

If you listen closely, and understand the language, the engine will tell you all you need to know.  The trick is to pay attention while it's whispering... and not make it get your attention by throwing a rod through the case.

PeteT.

 

Here's my perspective: I do not risk a 5000 dollar engine on a savings of 10. No matter what the nurseryman says about feeding plants (which are cheap) an actual accredited Engineer specified the lubrication requirements of my expensive, close tolerance hydrocarbon disposal system.
More popcorn please!

Hunter

[Kev m]

Pete - your reply fails multiple times again in the following false logic or bad arguments.

1. Your similie is horrible. The "manufacturer" of the Palm tree obviously didn't "spec" bottled water. Not to mention the plant in question is found in nature, as is water, neither of which is true for a Guzzi motor or motor oil.

2. You went to aircraft mechanic school and not engineering school. This becomes obvious when you essentially claim that 10/60 and 20/50 are equivalents. They are obviously not by the simple API standards that determine viscosity. I'm not an engineer either, but I've been surrounded by them my whole life (father, brothers, school mates, co-workers) and I know this much, they wouldn't have different viscosities on oils if there weren't differences in how they perform their jobs as oils.

[note for #2 - I'm not claiming to know the degree to which the differences are significant, however it's obvious most or no-one else here does either. The difference has been enough to trigger oil warning lights on some CARC 2-valvers - at least I've never heard of those same bikes or any others ever triggering the lights under the same circumstances with 10-60, so it's up to each of us to decide how much of a difference that is, but it is obviously a difference.]

3. "Is it necessary to spend 3x as much on oil." - answers a point that no-one is making. I for one am not saying that one MUST USE NOTHING BUT AGIP 10/60, but I AM saying that since the manufacture's recommendation is for a synthetic 10/60 motorcycle oil, it would likely be wise to stay as close to that recommendation as possible. That said, the difference in price between say M1 15-50 and AGIP 10-60 is NO WHERE NEAR 2x or 3x.

4. You seem to be talking small-blocks, while most of the rest of us are talking big-blocks (specifically CARC big-blocks). If I'm not mistaken the recommendations are not identical between the two. EDIT - yup see below:

750 SERIES (Breva and Nevada):
Engine oil: RACING 4T 10W-60 or as an alternative 15W-50
Transmission oil: ROTRA TRUCK GEAR 85 W -140
Gearbox oil: ROTRA MP/S 80 W -90

850-1100-1200 SERIES (Breva Griso and Norge):
Engine oil: RACING 4T 10W-60 For this type of engine, we warmly recommend that you use this type of oil since it guarantees ideal pressure values even at very high engine
temperature.
Transmission oil: ROTRA MP 80 W -90
Gearbox oil: ROTRA MP/S 85 W -90

[kballowe]

I've been researching some used oil analysis on the AGIP 10W-60 today.  What I'm seeing is that it shears rather quickly to a 50 weight oil and in many cases - to a 40 weight.

Also read a response from a letter written to Amsoil Corporation.  They recommend their 20W-50 MCV in place of the 10W-60.

Still, another Guzzi site recommends that Castrol 20W-50 "works well in most any Moto Guzzi".

In MY owner's manual, AGIP products are recommended for everything.  
I suspect that MG used these products (or similar spec) during research and development and that is why they recommend them.  

I'll be using a PAO-based 20W-50 in mine.  Thankyouverymuch.

[Kev m]

Didn't the Ducati link with MCN data claim all oils lose viscosity pretty quickly?

So if 10-60 quickly goes to 50, then 40, what do you think likely happens to 20-50 or 15-50?

Is it possible that the company ENGINEERS took this into account with THEIR RECOMMENDATIONS?

[jackson]

I am not a mechanical engineer (and I don't play one on television, either).  It makes absolutely no sense to me to use any oil except the grade that the engineers who work for the manufacturer have specified. Saving a few bucks by using a cheaper or easier to find oil in a different grade may wind up costing someone a bunch of $$$$$, headaches and heartaches if their engine goes ballistic.......... ......because they're trying to beat the odds that they know more about this subject than the mechanical engineers who came up with the specifications for a specific engine.  Doesn't seem logical to me.  YMMV