Probably bad news for flat tappet 8V owners.

[Aaron D.]

I'm figuring there is a lack of oil, or the temperatures at the cam/tappet are too high for the oil getting there. Flat tappets work fine in most engines.

Or they made the springs too stiff, that bit a few designers. Even maybe the Hydros...

[molly]

I'm figuring there is a lack of oil, or the temperatures at the cam/tappet are too high for the oil getting there. Flat tappets work fine in most engines.

Or they made the springs too stiff, that bit a few designers. Even maybe the Hydros...

There's been quite a few amateur detectives on this case but the frustrating thing is no one has solved it yet.

[Aaron D.]

Oh, I doubt we'll ever KNOW, it would cost as much as a new bike or more to actually do some proper testing.

[Kev m]

Would it help to have a metallurgist look at some of the worn bits that are going to be discarded?

My big bro has a masters in Metallurgy/Materials Science Engineering from Lehigh and has worked as one (granted mostly in the bio-medical and precious metals field most of his career). Though he is a lifelong gearhead and taught me much of the basics of mechanics when I was young. We had him analyze some failed risers years ago and I suspect he'd be happy to see if he can add to the discussion.

[steffen]

OK, I've decided to bite the bullet and get the griso rollerised this winter. My 2010 Griso has just passed 18.000 km.

I've been writing my dealer, but just to be sure, it's a kit like this (or similar, perhaps C, I'll let the tec find that out), I need, right?

http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/camshaft-kit-a-8v-10-12-s-g-n-1a002060-moto-guzzi

Now Pete and Mollys dealer apparently agree: Get the thing fixed asap!
What do reputable workshops in the US say? Any word from the likes of MPH, Moto International or others on this issue?

/Steffen, Denmark, where it's often cold and damp...

[azguzzirep]

Yeah. Wow! Perhaps you'll understand why people get really short shrift if they come into my shop yelling and poking me in the chest, (Yes, that has happened!) and telling me I have to fix their horrible broken shitter for nothing and 'Sort it out with the importer'. The ones that do that are invariably the ones that bought the bike elsewhere because it was 'Cheaper' than I could provide it but expect me to take it up the arse and do all the work, usually caused by the incompetence of the 'Box Shop' *Mechanics* or their own fiddling, when it all falls in a screaming heap.

Treat me right and I'll try and move heaven and earth to get a good outcome. Give me crap and oddly enough you'll find me *Busy* until long after hell has frozen over!

Pete

BRAVO!

[Vasco DG]

I've done that Kev, several times. The Australian Mint has some of the best metalurgists and facilities in the country. I've also had help from other sources including a member here who chooses to remain anonymous who has access and skills to use the electron microscope the pics were taken with, it's not a Box Brownie!

What I have found that is useful and relevant I've passed on here but I've also tried to keep information simple, clear and concise because otherwise we end up in a situation like now where everybody starts brainstorming and logic and science go out the window.

I've waded through several papers that are so technical and boring they'd make an imbecile weep and while the information gleaned was useful I really wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy to be honest! The info IS out there though if one chooses to pursue it. If anyone else wants to? Be my guest. It's a long and mainly dull slog.

Pete

[Dick]

At this point in time I'd suspect the factory knows what the problem is and the solution. The rollers may be the work around fix. Time will tell. Someone here mentioned, (a while ago), rocker arm ratio, and excess pressure on cams and lifters to open valves. Maybe? I ran automatic screw machines many years back and the quickest way to ruin a cam and rollers was to put undo spring pressure on them. Many attempts went into cam metallurgy, hardening, coatings, etc., with little, if any, success.The valve spring pressure may be fine, but if the rocker ratio and or it's design is faulty your still going to have excess pressure on the cam and followers. If I owned a 4VPC Griso, etc. I would do as Pete suggests and have it inspected for wear and take it from there. Good luck to you 4VPC owners.     

[Chuck in Indiana]

At this point in time I'd suspect the factory knows what the problem is and the solution. The rollers may be the work around fix. Time will tell. Someone here mentioned, (a while ago), rocker arm ratio, and excess pressure on cams and lifters to open valves. Maybe? I ran automatic screw machines many years back and the quickest way to ruin a cam and rollers was to put undo spring pressure on them. Many attempts went into cam metallurgy, hardening, coatings, etc., with little, if any, success.The valve spring pressure may be fine, but if the rocker ratio and or it's design is faulty your still going to have excess pressure on the cam and followers. If I owned a 4VPC Griso, etc. I would do as Pete suggests and have it inspected for wear and take it from there. Good luck to you 4VPC owners.   

This sounds eerily like the Lario valve problem. There's still no definitive answer on that, either.

[blackcat]

Just out of curiosity, what does this camshaft kit cost in dollars? From the TLM site it looks like 1,000 Euros but is that what they sell for here? 

[jacksonracingcomau]

 :1: to all this and yes I know you've been saying it a long time, head in the sand owners ignored you
But one thing still bothers me, almost every post here with problem has mayo, if and only if it is the mayo causing the problem, rollers ain't going to fix it, only a drain to sump can
A definitive cause would be good to read, been a lot of customers burnt by it
Hope everyone here gets their upgrade without $, I can't see any other way to move on

18 months ago my local long established Guzzi dealer here in the U.K. told me that the 8v flat tappet motor was seriously flawed and he was 'fiddling' warranty claims so that even healthy motors were getting rollerised. He was doing the work for a nominal fee to keep his customers from leaving the brand.
At the time I was thinking of buying a new old stock 1200 Sport and part of the deal was that I rode it round the block and the warranty claim was put in for the rollers. I was very tempted but just couldn't get my head around the concept of repairing a brand new bike so left the deal on the table.

I have no problems with the repair to the flat tappet motors which I'm sure is now sorted but the way Piaggio handled it was lamentable. Unlike Honda who had plenty of other engines on the market when they had cam problems the Guzzi 8v motor was a big part of the model range and after the 1200 2v motors owners moved on to 8v's thinking Guzzi was on the way back to main stream popularity. The whole 8v debacle has done great damage to the brands reputation here in the U.K. I hope the cost saving mean spirited response was worth it for the company but it's reputation might take a while to recover.

Let's face it Guzzi knew full well there  was a problem from the earliest failures. If they didn't their  engineering expertise must be seriously questioned. They left owners with bikes that would inevitably fail at some stage and took the head in the sand approach. They are not the only ones playing this game but it still stinks.

[boxermoose]

:1: to all this and yes I know you've been saying it a long time, head in the sand owners ignored you
But one thing still bothers me, almost every post here with problem has mayo, if and only if it is the mayo causing the problem, rollers ain't going to fix it, only a drain to sump can
A definitive cause would be good to read, been a lot of customers burnt by it
Hope everyone here gets their upgrade without $, I can't see any other way to move on

We'll see - I'm in Houston and have 32k miles on my 2012 Stelvio

I've send a note to Mike at MPH to see when he has time to pop a cam box to have a look, hope to get it over to him in the next couple weeks

[Xlratr]

But one thing still bothers me, almost every post here with problem has mayo.....

Not me! It was clean as a whistle under my northern hemisphere non whinging valve covers :-). Always has been!
John

[Kev m]

I've done that Kev, several times. The Australian Mint has some of the best metalurgists and facilities in the country. I've also had help from other sources including a member here who chooses to remain anonymous who has access and skills to use the electron microscope the pics were taken with, it's not a Box Brownie!

What I have found that is useful and relevant I've passed on here but I've also tried to keep information simple, clear and concise because otherwise we end up in a situation like now where everybody starts brainstorming and logic and science go out the window.

I've waded through several papers that are so technical and boring they'd make an imbecile weep and while the information gleaned was useful I really wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy to be honest! The info IS out there though if one chooses to pursue it. If anyone else wants to? Be my guest. It's a long and mainly dull slog.

Pete

Yeah, now that you say that I feel like we've discussed it before and I mentioned my big bro then... sorry... getting old enough that CRS is setting in I guess.

[canuguzzi]

Elephant in the room. So long as it remains unnamed, it can be discussed and talked about at MG and the get er done folks will simply ante up to pay partial costs out if their own pockets.

That unnamed elephant would be the POS flat tappet design used by MG or manufactured the way they made it. Call it what it is.

If it is as being related here, then there should be a recall, not more digging into pockets to pay for it. That probably goes against the grain because demanding MG recall bikes with flawed engine designs instead of paying for an inspection is tantamount to blasphemy. If the problem is as implied, also mayo, then it is only a matter of time before it starts showing up in the roller bikes too.

Firing up the car to run to the store because the MG will bathe itself in mayo on a short trip is amazing. I guess that makes it special?  Yeah, the flat tappet ain't for sale, well, no one is breaking down the door to buy it either and as this becomes generally known, better keep it too because there are too many other choices out there and none of them have Kraft as part of the logo.

BTW, insurance covers the costs associated with hitting animals, it doesn't cover any part of fixing a flawed design. The lengths gone to to mitigate paying for an inspection is amazing. MG needs to recall and I don't think that is too far down the road.

Of course, if you had customers doing everything they can to convince those affected to cough up for the inspection, what would you do besides ordering up another espresso and laughing?

Let the bombs drop and flame throwers ignite.

[Vasco DG]

At this point in time I'd suspect the factory knows what the problem is and the solution. The rollers may be the work around fix. Time will tell. Someone here mentioned, (a while ago), rocker arm ratio, and excess pressure on cams and lifters to open valves. Maybe? I ran automatic screw machines many years back and the quickest way to ruin a cam and rollers was to put undo spring pressure on them. Many attempts went into cam metallurgy, hardening, coatings, etc., with little, if any, success.The valve spring pressure may be fine, but if the rocker ratio and or it's design is faulty your still going to have excess pressure on the cam and followers. If I owned a 4VPC Griso, etc. I would do as Pete suggests and have it inspected for wear and take it from there. Good luck to you 4VPC owners.   

I'd actually pondered the rocker arm ratio issue but what made me at best ambivalent about it is that when you compare it to the gen1 8V's the valve train is lighter and the springs are softer, (The first gen engines also used dual coil rather than single 'Beehive' springs.). If you look at a Daytona/Centauro tappet it is solid rather than hollow and the wretched things are very heavy/massive.

The rocker ratio is very similar with both engines but while it is possible to snap rockers on the old Hi-Cam if they are over revved their tappets aren't failure prone. Their cam profiles aren't as weird though as the Nuovo Hi-Cam.

Pete

[Peter from Sch'dy]

I bet there's no recall as rider safety is not an issue.

 "A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards".

Best,
Peter

[Vasco DG]

That is unfortunately true. The roller conversion is considered a 'Technical Update' rather than a recall which has all sorts of legal ramifications I'm sure, (In a 'Weasel Wordy' sort of way!) and, at least here, on the parts site the conversions are called an 'Upgrade Kit'.

Pete

[Vasco DG]

Just out of curiosity, what does this camshaft kit cost in dollars? From the TLM site it looks like 1,000 Euros but is that what they sell for here?

I think in the rollerisation thread I posted up the prices as listed on the AF1 site. As previously stated if you're doing it pre-emptively on your own dime and have a bike that needs a 'C' kit it's cheaper to buy a 'B' kit and add the bits you need to convert it to a 'C'.

Pete

[Lannis]

So on the way to work yesterday, I was sitting at a long red light, thinking about my failed valve tappets on my Stelvio. I started to think about switching to BMW, or Honda, or later as I road past Frazier's Harley Davidson, maybe.......
But then I realized that HD does not have a model that I want. BWM does NOT have a good record of customer support, and neither does Honda. The grass is NOT green over there.
So, I continued to enjoy the nice ride in to work on my EV. I really like the EV.

That's my problem.   I can't afford to fool with buying price, parts prices, or service prices for a BMW, and the dealer is farther away than the Guzzi dealer.     A Honda CB1100 dresser would be nice, but Fay and I sat on one and there's not enough room front to back (same issues I faced that sent me to the Stelvio in the first place).   I don't want an HD.   

Triumph ... ?   Hmmm .....

Lannis

[Lash]

Just out of curiosity, what does this camshaft kit cost in dollars? From the TLM site it looks like 1,000 Euros but is that what they sell for here?

AF1 Racing has them for US $999 (plus shipping and taxes of course!)

[canuguzzi]

Early VW 2.0 turbo engines used a cam follower design to run a high pressure fuel pump.  They had the exact same results MG is experiencing with these 8 valve engines.  I have one of the cam followers on my desk that I took out of my 2007 GTI and it looks just like one of Pete's pictures above.  The DLC is wearing off. 

Great discussions ensued on the VW boards just like this one here.  VW did eventually step up and extend the warranty on the cams and the fuel pumps to cover the potential damage due to this design (120,000 miles).

The design is not unsound.  Most everyone agreed that the problem developed because oil formulations were changed to help meet emission standards.  Less zinc (ZDDP) is used and  more wear is present.  This is undoubtedly exacerbated  by cool oil temps on the MG 8 valve engines (some of Pete's research). 

VW gave up on the 2006 design in late 2008.  They moved the HPFP and its now driven by the timing chain.

Unfortunately, Moto Guzzi is not in a position to redesign their 8 valve engines.  They don't have the deep pockets VW has.  At least they came up with rollers.  Now they need to step up and extend their warranty.

Extending the warranty makes a lot of sense. Let's be fair though, MG didn't need to redesign anything, looks like there was enough development information there to do it right the first time instead of doing it twice later.

Extending a warranty is a sound way to address the problem, GM has done it with transmissions recently, providing 100,000 mile warranties for certain models because of a wave plate failure.

If the problem will happen to all flat tappet motors but only after a certain point, the actuaries can figure out the benefit to cost ratio of a warranty vs a recall and fix.

The problem with a warranty here is the results. As described, the engine chews on itself and the preventative solution is minor compared to the eventual problem. With a warranty, owners simply ride until the engine goes FUBAR and calls the dealer and MG has to fix it all or replace the engine. With a preventative fix, the numbers will be higher but the costs might be much less not to mention the PR value of a bike getting fixed vs those that sit along side the road or get trailered in with useless engines.

Not much speaks louder than an engine that eats itself and the owner is left stranded vs a scheduled repair and the satisfaction of the owner knowing they were taken care of and will buy again.

A manufacturer can recall anything they want and call it anything they want, its schematics, something the customer doesn't really care about.

[ohiorider]

My current solution, and it isn't based 100% on the tappet issue.  If wishes were dishes (or if my Griso were my 1200 Sport) there'd be no question I'd throw $999.00 + at the problem for my own POM.  However, the GRiSO and I just haven't personally meshed as well as I have with the Sport.  So ................

The 2012 Tenni Green Griso 8vSE is currently on eBay.  If I receive the offer I want, she is off to a new owner.  If the offer doesn't happen, I'll keep the Griso and spend the bucks on the roller kit.  The other option would be to simply double up on checking valve clearances.  It's easier and quicker to perform on the Griso than on the Sport, even though dealing with double the valves.

Replacing tappets would hopefully leave me with a Griso that would be stone axe reliable, but that still doesn't work for me ergonomically.  So, one more step .... see if I can have the forks and shock rebuilt so that the bike bears some semblance to a sport tourer, not a jack hammer.  If those things happen, I could see Ms Griso sticking around for years.

However, if some Griso fanatic comes through with the proper $$$$ on eBay, I'll be looking for another ride.  I'm thinking another Bonneville T100, or perhaps something totally new to me like the Tiger 800.

Bob

[tazio]

Schematics 

  Dusty

DUSTY !
 

[beetle]

It's bad form to question the semantics of schematics.

[lucian]

]
Had the same issues with my griso suspension until recently when I took the time to set it up properly. It had way to much preload front and rear so I backed them off and set the dampening s right by the manual standard settings,they were way off as well, unbelievable difference. The roads here are terrible and I suffered way to long for lack of checking it out properly. The p.o. actually had the compression and rebound settings backwards. Also he was a lot heavier and must have cranked the preload front and rear. Have you tried adjusting yours at all?

[rboe]

Just checked, my Griso has the flat tappets. sigh.....

While I have not completely gelled with the Griso; we do seem to have come to terms with each other and is set up rather nicely now. The Honda 650L has soaked up more money than she is worth and is still asking for attention. Like a sucker I keep tossing time and effort (and $$) at her. Now it looks like the Griso is envious and wants the same. But I can't afford two money pits. But what has been pointed out earlier, I'd lose more bucks shedding her than sucking it up and getting her right. Once "upgraded" I doubt I'll ever put enough miles on her to find any weaknesses, if any, in the roller tappet design, but the whole affair leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Lucky for me the Griso is so damn good looking.

[Peter from Sch'dy]

A way to think about this is to decide if you like the bike enough to have thrown another grand at it when it was new. Most people (conjecture alert) don't pay retail for Grisos, do they? If roller tappets work, it's all good!

Best,
Peter

[tazio]

A way to think about this is to decide if you like the bike enough to have thrown another grand at it when it was new. Most people (conjecture alert) don't pay retail for Grisos, do they? If roller tappets work, it's all good!

Best,
Peter

Well, I bought mine used.
And that "grand" represents an 18% "tip".
Thanks Piaggio, for thinking so little of such a storied marque and the people that love them.

[canuguzzi]

Schematics 

  Dusty

No, semantics. Schematics are what others use to find their way into people's bank accounts and have make them feel thankful for the privilege.