The impossibly priced Cycle Garden Ebay bikes thread - It's all about marketing, you know.

[canuck750]

I say good for Moe, I met him at his shop this spring, very hospitable, took the time to show me his shop and the bikes he was working on. He is running a business, it has to make a profit. Moe has put a lot of effort into marketing his business and I think he has been working on the brand for a very long time. I don't understand why anyone has a problem with him getting the highest price he can for his services. Moe is not making any outlandish claims about his restorations, by all accounts he does very, very fine work. I saw two of his restorations up close and personal, they looked excellent. If a customer is willing to pay over $35K for as fully restored bike that's between Moe and the seller. Even at $35K I don't think Moe is getting rich restoring bikes. Figure on 200 hours to restore a machine properly and take a typical shop rate of at least $100/hr. + parts + the donor bike, $35K is not outlandish.

It's easy to criticise someone running a business, much, much harder to keep a business going year after year.

[rodekyll]

if Moe wanted to use shill bidders to jack up his auction prices, he wouldn't use two bidders with zero transactions in their bid histories.  I would suspect that someone who wants to pimp Moe has created the two "zero transaction" bidders to show the world that Moe's reserves are not legit.

That's some dedicated trolls, since they create new accounts and shill bid diligently and outrageously on EVERY bike he auctions.

(translation --- BS.)

[Lannis]

I say good for Moe, I met him at his shop this spring, very hospitable, took the time to show me his shop and the bikes he was working on. He is running a business, it has to make a profit.

The question is not "is Moe running a business?" or "are Moe's bikes any good?"

The question is "Are the eBay techniques being used by Moe's to sell bikes really ethical?"

"I have to make a profit" is no better than "I vass only following orders".    It smells fishy to me, and I'll tell that to anyone who will listen.

Lannis

[dxhall]

I've never met Moe in person, but I've spoken to him a few times over the years and he's always been straight with me.   It just seems pretty unlikely that there are two legitimate "zero transactions" bidders on the same $20k+ item.  Like him or not, the guy is not stupid.  I don't see him being responsible for what seems to be an obvious hoax.  Maybe this is the work  of the people who bid on the grilled cheese sandwich wiith the image of Jesus.

[canuck750]

The question is not "is Moe running a business?" or "are Moe's bikes any good?"

The question is "Are the eBay techniques being used by Moe's to sell bikes really ethical?"

"I have to make a profit" is no better than "I vass only following orders".    It smells fishy to me, and I'll tell that to anyone who will listen.

Lannis

Point taken ... but no one is being forced to buy Moe's bikes, if someone is shelling out that kind of coin I would think thy either have far too much money and/or they want the local cachet of a Cycle Garden Bike. I rode up the Southern California coast in the spring when I visited Moe and Mark Ethridge, there is more money being flashed about that 100 miles south of L.A. than probably anywhere else I have been in the world, you just stop counting Ferrari's and Lambos, I really don't think Moe's market resides anywhere near this site   Do I think he is being dishonest and/or  jacking up the apparent value of his bikes? No, its promotion.

Lets drill down to what is being offered, a 40+ year old bike, not a particularly rare one or a great handler or powerful bike (by the way I love my Eldorado), so why would anyone pay anywhere near that kind of money?? It just comes down to cool, Moe sells cool to the kind of people who believe they can purchase cool, Harley's been doing it for years.

[Thunderbox]

from 20k up all bidders with 0 history, fake.

Albeit they are only 2 bidders.  Not what I would call undisputed evidence.  But a little suspicious.

[earemike]

If Moe has sold bikes to some 'famous' people then others with plenty of cash would buy entry into that club.

Hey Joe, have a look at my classic Guzzi, it was done by Ewan's mates at cyclegarden...

https://twitter.com/mcgregor_ewan/status/201678009982386177

[Triple Jim]

There is really nothing Ebay can do about these bidders. They just fire up a new, bogus hotmail email account and a new Ebay account and do it over and over again.

I suppose eBay could look at the IP address of these bidders to see if it matches the seller's IP address.  If the seller is careless enough to use the same address for the fake bidders, he'd be caught.

I can't think of any good reason someone would create fake accounts to bid up an item, other than the seller bidding up his price.  It's not like it's fun to go to all that trouble to make fake bids on another person's auction.

[jackson]

This type of scam is done all the time.  The seller gets several of his friends who would have different IP addresses to pump up the bid and he instructs them when to start and stop bidding.  If the seller gets over a certain amount of money for the item, he gives a percentage of the profit to each of his helpers.  It's done all the time but people are naive and ignorant of what's really going on.  IMO, This  specific bike auction is a classic case of this type of scam.  Let the buyer beware.

[Tobit]

Whats a 1960 Eldorado Convertible worth these days?

$18 - $20 a pound?

A Glorious Detroit Jurassic period piece.   

[LowRyter]

I must disagree with Dusty.

That slammed (and chopped?) '59 Caddy is beautiful (once that stupid baroque roof is removed).

[Denis]

So, I've noted that Eldorados listed on eBay by this particular individual are always way more expensive than anyone else's. His listings also tend to have a lot of bidders. I've wondering about this for a while now and think it's fishy.

There is NO WAY that an Eldorado is worth $38000 and still climbing with 46 minutes left. Still, here it is. I noticed that the last 5 bids, which took the Eldo from $20k to $38k, are all by bidders with NO feedback. Also, it's interesting that the bike was not going to meet his stated restoration price of $36k. So, suddenly, the bidding is up.

This is fishy and reeks of shill bidding.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-Eldorado-/171829196514?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2801d176e2&item=171829196514

    v***m ( 0 )      US $38,100.00   Jun-24-15 04:59:07 PDT
 
     a***t ( 0 )      US $38,000.00   Jun-22-15 09:03:10 PDT
 
     v***m ( 0 )      US $35,000.00   Jun-22-15 09:04:33 PDT
 
     a***t ( 0 )      US $29,000.00   Jun-22-15 09:02:25 PDT
 
     v***m ( 0 )      US $24,000.00   Jun-22-15 09:00:58 PDT
 
     a***e ( 58Feedback score is 50 to 99)      US $20,000.00   Jun-20-15 20:15:00 PDT
 
     c***o ( 2518Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999)      US $17,777.77   Jun-19-15 17:58:20 PDT
 

[fotoguzzi]

agreed

[screamday]

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=77208.0

[jackson]

This type of scam is regularly ran on Ebay with different products.  The seller gets several of his friends who would have different IP addresses to pump up the bid and he instructs them when to start and stop bidding.  If the seller gets over a certain amount of money for the item, he gives a percentage of the profit to each of his helpers.  It's done all the time but people are naive and ignorant of what's really going on.  IMO, This  specific bike auction is a classic case of this type of scam.  Let the buyer beware.

[Kentktk]

The last real bid was for $20,000. The rest are new bidders with 0 feedback commonly known as Shills.

[canuguzzi]

If seller sells and buyer buys who cares? They both got what they wanted so it's really between them. Put an ad on Craigslist and see how many people you get inquiring and throwing out offers hoping you'll sell that that price.

If he is getting high prices on his bikes, more power to him. Some people have money and are willing to pay higher prices for the value they see in those bikes, I think that is great. He's running a business, not a philanthropy

One of the worst places to price bikes is a forum. When people come here asking what they should list their bikes for I have to laugh, just what are they thinking? Price it high, so what if no one buys it right away, you can always lower the price. At the right price, someone will buy it.

Someone once told me that the peach you can't have is always bitter.

[Denis]

Your argument falls flat when it comes to shill bidding.

[NCAmother]

Isn't it expensive in Ebay fees to do this?

[oldbike54]

Isn't it expensive in Ebay fees to do this?

 Didn't some one say the max is $750.00 per . So if you can convince folks that a $20k bike is worth $25K in two auctions , that is a $3,500 profit .

  Dusty

[canuguzzi]

Your argument falls flat when it comes to shill bidding.

Not quite. In any bidding process you never know if the seller has shills, pocket buyers or just goof balls bidding just for fun.

If the buyer is willing to pay the final win price, then they determined their own value for the item. If someone keeps bidding up in price past what they think the value to them is, they forgot the buyer beware principle.

Yeah, shills bidding can drive up a price but not beyond what someone is willing to pay for something. If only shills bid, then the top bidder is a shill and reaps that reward if the reserve was met. The seller can set a very high reserve price, one that shills won't reach but then it comes down to the real buyer. No matter how it works out, the buyer can only win based on their own bid and if they get pressured somehow, shame on them.

[jlburgess]

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/mcy/5089102072.html
here's the next candidate up for sale 
Those sirens must be really expensive!

[oldbike54]

 So NP , you are saying that it is OK to intentionally misrepresent the value of something ? Why hell , let me tell you about this Roper tuned Jackal of mine , new rubber , runs great , authentic Pacifico Aerofoil fairing worth at least a grand , Staintune exhaust , 1,800 value,  H&B backrest , real Samsonite saddlebags worth at least $600 bucks , new brake pads , new clutch and fresh transmission , will sell at a loss for $6K , don't wait , I have been offered and turned down $5,800.00 .

  Down

[rodekyll]

Not quite. In any bidding process you never know if the seller has shills, pocket buyers or just goof balls bidding just for fun.

If the buyer is willing to pay the final win price, then they determined their own value for the item. If someone keeps bidding up in price past what they think the value to them is, they forgot the buyer beware principle.

Yeah, shills bidding can drive up a price but not beyond what someone is willing to pay for something. If only shills bid, then the top bidder is a shill and reaps that reward if the reserve was met. The seller can set a very high reserve price, one that shills won't reach but then it comes down to the real buyer. No matter how it works out, the buyer can only win based on their own bid and if they get pressured somehow, shame on them.

So you're saying that a seller can be as dishonest as he wants to be as he's not caught.  I submit that this one has been caught.  A seller who engages shills is in my opinion the same lying, conning thief as the 419 scammers out of Nigeria.  If you think that's OK, then shame on YOU!

[jlburgess]

haha that Craigslist ad is locked reply  with some kind of picture of soup! what the hell is going on here 

[Kentktk]

Not quite. In any bidding process you never know if the seller has shills, pocket buyers or just goof balls bidding just for fun.

If the buyer is willing to pay the final win price, then they determined their own value for the item. If someone keeps bidding up in price past what they think the value to them is, they forgot the buyer beware principle.

Yeah, shills bidding can drive up a price but not beyond what someone is willing to pay for something. If only shills bid, then the top bidder is a shill and reaps that reward if the reserve was met. The seller can set a very high reserve price, one that shills won't reach but then it comes down to the real buyer. No matter how it works out, the buyer can only win based on their own bid and if they get pressured somehow, shame on them.

Your argument still falls flat.

[jlburgess]

I would suggest anyone currently holding police bikes hold out because this could actually drive the prices very high.  Look at the Ducati Paul Smart repro bikes now way over msrp.  Maybe MG time has come? 

[Cam3512]

I would suggest anyone currently holding police bikes hold out because this could actually drive the prices very high.  Look at the Ducati Paul Smart repro bikes now way over msrp.  Maybe MG time has come? 

Hopefully, but not really.  You know how may times I hear a seller with an inflated price say "Moe gets $30K+ for his bikes, so mine at $15K is a steal".   Think Jackson Barrett with cars.

[Lannis]

If the buyer is willing to pay the final win price, then they determined their own value for the item. If someone keeps bidding up in price past what they think the value to them is, they forgot the buyer beware principle.

Yep, that's right, if you can SOMEHOW get someone thinking it's worth more by lying, cheating, shilling, or whatever, and the sucker actually BUYS it, then that's good business!    What an absolute idiot that guy was, he paid WAY more than it was worth BWAAAHaahahhahah.

Let's see if we can do it again to another dummy!   We're a business after all, we have to make a profit, anything we do is really OK as long as we don't hold a gun to the guy's head and rifle his pockets.

Lannis

[jmac851]

You only know what things are really worth when the money changes hands.