Author Topic: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?  (Read 36586 times)

Offline normzone

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #60 on: July 24, 2017, 01:50:05 PM »
I've looked in BOTH my local Pep Boys and O'Reilly, and I cannot locate Empire Violet 1w200 anyplace. I'll try NAPA next.

It sounds like an oil I could use in engine, gearbox and final drive, possibly even the brake master cylinders.   :shocked:
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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #61 on: July 24, 2017, 01:55:25 PM »
Very possibly . Calling it racing oil may just be a marketing ploy . It is funny , tons of money get spent during any Nascar race extolling the virtues of a brand of oil or gasoline . I know all gasoline is spec , and I bet the oil is also .

 Dusty

Perhaps.

But then that goes back to the tangent about not using "Racing" oils because of lack of detergent, that might have been true at some point, but might not be applicable with anything on the market today.

Looks to me like it's been more than a decade that the term has been used on oils recommended for many street bikes, and the term "Racing 4T" can be found on products from Mobil, Castrol, Agip/Eni, etc.

https://www.google.com/search?q=motorcycle+oil+racing+4t&rlz=1C1EODB_enUS645US681&oq=motorcycle+oil+racing+4t&aqs=chrome..69i57.9135j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-

I checked that old Guzzi service bulletin about oil from 2006 - it's already calling all the oils they specified (CARC, Cali 1100 mechanical and hydraulic, and smallblock) RACING 4T.

I'm not sure if that's all marketing or part of an industry standard?
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Offline Zinfan

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2017, 02:00:33 PM »
The reason I read these threads it to get some idea of what I might use if I'm in Mexico or parts south on a trip and need an oil change.  No way to get mail order and so limited to local stock.  Would BMW car 10W60 be better than a motorcycle specific 20W50?  I have no idea.

Offline Xlratr

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Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2017, 02:14:13 PM »
Very possibly . Calling it racing oil may just be a marketing ploy . It is funny , tons of money get spent during any Nascar race extolling the virtues of a brand of oil or gasoline . I know all gasoline is spec , and I bet the oil is also .

 Dusty

I'm not 100% sure about this but I recall reading that the SM grade limits on ZDDP content apply to conventional oils for regular road application. Special use oils may be subject to different level restrictions. I think a 10-60 rating qualifies as a special application and using the term "racing" may also be a way of making an oil special use.
Again, this is just something I think I read somewhere [emoji3]

Edit: I understand the following grades have to comply with the SAE SM category max zinc levels :
0W-30, 0W-40, 5W-20, 5W-30, 5W-40, 5W-50, 10W-30, 10W-40 and 10W-50.
Anything outside of that, or special application ("Racing"?) may not be subject to the limits.
But if somebody knows better I'll stand corrected!

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« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 03:48:59 PM by Xlratr »
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Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #63 on: July 24, 2017, 02:14:13 PM »

Offline Tom

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #64 on: July 24, 2017, 03:07:23 PM »
What is the SAE code for AGIP 10W60 oil? 
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Offline Xlratr

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #65 on: July 24, 2017, 03:18:23 PM »
What is the SAE code for AGIP 10W60 oil?

SG


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Offline SportsterDoc

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2017, 03:44:30 PM »
My first oil change was with Motoul 4T 4 stroke motor oil, 100% synthetic ester, rated "API SG/SH/SJ/SL/SM/SN" (think I posted a photo late Feb/early March) produced in France.   Also plan to use it for the next change, in a couple months.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 10:45:52 AM by SportsterDoc »
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Offline SmithSwede

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #67 on: July 24, 2017, 04:11:47 PM »
Lannis:

Great psychological analysis of oil threads!  I'd add one other point---it is an interesting psychological fact that people worry so much about oil, and "protecting their engine," when the vast majority of them don't get anywhere close to using the normal service life of the machine.

If you are only going to run the bike 10 to 30,000 miles before you sell it for something else, it probably doesn't matter that much what oil you use if it's decent quality and at least close to the recommended specification.   For these people, the engine isn't going to wear out in any meaningful sense---you are going to divorce it long before you could perceive any differences between Oil A versus Oil B. 

Seems to me that the only people who should rationally obsess about the subtle nuances of tribology are people who really do plan to run the engine 200,000, 300,000, or more miles.    There probably are a few such people on a Guzzi forum; not so much on a Ducati race bike forum.     

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Offline Tom

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #68 on: July 24, 2017, 04:24:05 PM »
SG


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Thanks.  SG rated then I would look for a compatible oil.  That's if I needed 10W60 for a Guzzi.
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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #69 on: July 24, 2017, 08:41:36 PM »
The reason I read these threads it to get some idea of what I might use if I'm in Mexico or parts south on a trip and need an oil change.  No way to get mail order and so limited to local stock.  Would BMW car 10W60 be better than a motorcycle specific 20W50?  I have no idea.

Aren't all late model Guzzi good for at least 6250 miles between oil changes?  How many miles do you think you might put on in MX???
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Online bad Chad

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #70 on: July 24, 2017, 08:47:41 PM »
I've looked in BOTH my local Pep Boys and O'Reilly, and I cannot locate Empire Violet 1w200 anyplace. I'll try NAPA next.

It sounds like an oil I could use in engine, gearbox and final drive, possibly even the brake master cylinders.   :shocked:

Best post of the thread! :afro:
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #71 on: July 24, 2017, 08:54:08 PM »
I've looked in BOTH my local Pep Boys and O'Reilly, and I cannot locate Empire Violet 1w200 anyplace. I'll try NAPA next.

It sounds like an oil I could use in engine, gearbox and final drive, possibly even the brake master cylinders.   :shocked:

Check "Advance Auto" and "Auto Zone".   If it's not there, travel to the next town to Federated Auto parts.   As a last resort, the refinery and warehouse is on the Turbo-Medillin road in Colombia.

Write when you get there!!    :thumb:

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Offline Ncdan

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2017, 09:57:01 PM »
Lannis:

Great psychological analysis of oil threads!  I'd add one other point---it is an interesting psychological fact that people worry so much about oil, and "protecting their engine," when the vast majority of them don't get anywhere close to using the normal service life of the machine.

If you are only going to run the bike 10 to 30,000 miles before you sell it for something else, it probably doesn't matter that much what oil you use if it's decent quality and at least close to the recommended specification.   For these people, the engine isn't going to wear out in any meaningful sense---you are going to divorce it long before you could perceive any differences between Oil A versus Oil B. 

Seems to me that the only people who should rationally obsess about the subtle nuances of tribology are people who really do plan to run the engine 200,000, 300,000, or more miles.    There probably are a few such people on a Guzzi forum; not so much on a Ducati race bike forum.   
I have a feeling this response is more than likely the most accurate post thus far. I have never put more than 30k on any of the dozens of bikes I've owned. The id bet good money that any of those bikes would have made it flawlessly 30k ,simply using straight 30wt Dino non detergent lawnmower grade oil. Heck I've got an old air cooled Briggs and Stratton push mower with 1000 hours on that mention 30 wt Dino oil.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 10:02:01 PM by Ncdan »

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #73 on: July 24, 2017, 11:48:30 PM »
I have a feeling this response is more than likely the most accurate post thus far. I have never put more than 30k on any of the dozens of bikes I've owned. The id bet good money that any of those bikes would have made it flawlessly 30k ,simply using straight 30wt Dino non detergent lawnmower grade oil. Heck I've got an old air cooled Briggs and Stratton push mower with 1000 hours on that mention 30 wt Dino oil.

 Yeah , but straight 30W is what that old B&S engine calls for .

 Dusty

Offline Lannis

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #74 on: July 25, 2017, 08:55:04 AM »
Lannis:

Great psychological analysis of oil threads!  I'd add one other point---it is an interesting psychological fact that people worry so much about oil, and "protecting their engine," when the vast majority of them don't get anywhere close to using the normal service life of the machine.


I took advantage of those folks already!  It's amazing what people will spend money on when it really means nothing.

When I bought my new bike at Scoot Richmond, the shop offered me a heavily discounted service package on the 600, 10000, and 20000 mile services.   Since the new bike has shim-under-bucket valve lash adjustment such that valve adjustment is a camshaft-out job, and changing the air filter is a fairing-off, tank-off job, I thought it would be smart.     

I've already taken advantage of the first two, at a savings of about $1000.   I asked the shop manager "How do you guys make money on this?   Is it worth that much to have the money up front?"

The answer, of course, is that over half the folks who buy the pre-paid service never even get to 10,000 miles before they quit riding the bike, or sell it on (the service isn't transferable), and so the shop never has to spend the time, and can spend it on MY bike, which WILL get all the miles on it.

I agree with you that oil is probably the same way.....

Lannis
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Offline Randown

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2017, 09:03:43 AM »
The other thing about grade / weight is that it's not uncommon for a motor oil to shear down a grade within the first 1000 miles or so after an oil change in a m/c application.

You may THINK you have a a 10W60 in your engine but REALLY its sheared to a 10W40. Google "agip 4T shears a lot".

Indeed I remember a thread here on WG where an oil light was coming on during hot weather but went away after an oil change.

With the Guzzi using a separate lube for the trans there's a good chance the agip doesn't shear as fast as a shared lube engine/trans.
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Online Kev m

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2017, 09:30:04 AM »
The other thing about grade / weight is that it's not uncommon for a motor oil to shear down a grade within the first 1000 miles or so after an oil change in a m/c application.

You may THINK you have a a 10W60 in your engine but REALLY its sheared to a 10W40. Google "agip 4T shears a lot".

Indeed I remember a thread here on WG where an oil light was coming on during hot weather but went away after an oil change.

With the Guzzi using a separate lube for the trans there's a good chance the agip doesn't shear as fast as a shared lube engine/trans.

Also the AGIP is Synthetic which doesn't shear as much as dino:

https://bobistheoilguy.com/effects-of-shearing/

Quote
Synthetic oils do not rely as much on special Viscosity Index Improver additives and will experience little permanent viscosity loss.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 09:30:19 AM by Kev m »
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Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2017, 12:54:50 PM »
The other thing about grade / weight is that it's not uncommon for a motor oil to shear down a grade within the first 1000 miles or so after an oil change in a m/c application.

You may THINK you have a a 10W60 in your engine but REALLY its sheared to a 10W40.

Hummm, I'm looking at a report from Blackstone Labs on my 2012 Stelvio.  7328 miles on this oil sample (32,360 on the bike). SUS Viscosity @210F was 100.4 (should be between 80 and 100), cSt Viscosity @ 100C was 20.45 (should be between 15.5 and 20.6).  This was full synthetic 10W60 and the bike was ridden hard with ambient temps up to 103F.  Your statement about shearing down a grade in 1000 miles may well apply to dino oil but full synthetic oil appears to be much more stable.  For a while I was using 20W50 full synthetic and the results were not as good but still within the allowable range.  The 10W60 results, for whatever reason, really are better and I suspect that's why Guzzi specified its use.

With that said, I once had a nephew whose parents gave him a new Corvette as a high school graduation present.  Yep, spoiled brat.  He took that car to college and for the next 4-5 years NEVER changed the oil.  The car was still running when he got rid of it.  Other abuse made the car a real POS (leaving the top off in the rain/snow) but the engine itself was still kicking.

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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #78 on: July 26, 2017, 01:59:24 PM »
+1 on the shear.  I've noticed 10/60 lose pressure and gain temperature under all circumstances.  If you manage to really overheat, synth can show frightening pressure drops.  I once thought I'd lost a hydro engine.  I overheated to the point that the ecu shut me down.  I cooled it completely and thought the innards were burned up by the lifter clatter on startup and the low, low, low idle pressures thereafter.  I was getting ready to change bearings and such when I thought to change the 2000-mile oil.  Clatter and pressure problems gone at next startup.  "Racing" oil, such as redline, seems to take the least miles to drop pressure.  I'm real disappointed in the redline, specifically.  But I'm not saying dino doesn't shear also.

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #79 on: July 26, 2017, 03:01:13 PM »
You guys need to look into Spectro Platinum 4 10W60.  It's a Group 4 and Group 5 blend, PolyAlphaOlefin (PAO) and Polyol ester.  I have heard Spectro uses polyol ester instead of cheaper di-ester.  Polyol ester is used in jet aircraft engines where it is expected to flow at -85 F, pump readily at -40 F, and withstand sump temperatures exceeding 392 F with drain intervals measured in years. Polyol ester also has excellent additive solubility to hold the additive package in suspension and acts as a foam suppressant as well.

What better blend agent to use with a PAO base stock than polyol ester to create a motor oil very resistant to extreme high temperature operation? 

All this time I'd not been aware Spectro made a 10W60 version of their flagship Platinum 4 product, but just checked and they do. 

Offline rodekyll

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #80 on: July 26, 2017, 03:38:57 PM »
What's it rated?  If not SG, I won't put it in my bikes.

Offline Tom

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #81 on: July 26, 2017, 04:00:10 PM »
 :1:  Need the alphabet rating to see if compatible.
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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #82 on: July 26, 2017, 04:15:39 PM »
There's a downloadable MSDS sheet .doc file at the Spectro website.

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #83 on: July 26, 2017, 04:41:12 PM »
There's a downloadable MSDS sheet .doc file at the Spectro website.

I didn't see the ratings mentioned on the download, but the specs on main page for 10w60 -- http://spectro-oils.com/platinum-full-synthetic/ -- say: "A.P.I. SL/JASO MA/MA2."

That passes the test, right?

Hey, there's a dealer in Winchester.  Wonder what it costs?

Bill

Offline Muzz

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #84 on: July 26, 2017, 04:47:25 PM »
What's it rated?  If not SG, I won't put it in my bikes.

RK, the oil that Penrite make for the Guzzi is in fact an SM/CF rated oil. However, it has the full zinc loading and is actually rated as a 10w/70 weight.
It is a pao/ester full synthetic, non friction modified, and has a zinc load of over 1800ppm.

Actually,I have just checked the Penrite site and I see the latest iteration of the oil is now and SN, but is now just a 10w/60. I am using their Sin10 (I get a few oil changes out of a pack of oil) but their latest one is called "MC4ST" which is tending to follow the Castrol nomenclature. Probably saves confusion because they also make an oil of the same weight and viscosity which is not rated for bikes.

The oils in the States may be required to only have the SG rating because of the required zinc load. I know the zinc was taken out as it kills catalytic converters.
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Offline rodekyll

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #85 on: July 26, 2017, 04:51:15 PM »
No SG, no-go.   :smiley:

Offline Muzz

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #86 on: July 26, 2017, 04:54:46 PM »
Just looked at their sheets Bill and it shows a zinc loading of "<2%". Not sure if my maths is correct :rolleyes: but it would appear to cover the ppm requirements.

The rest looks good too.
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Offline jdgretz

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #87 on: July 26, 2017, 05:06:29 PM »
No SG, no-go.   :smiley:

My reading of the API specifications seems to say that if it is higher alphabetically than the recommended, then you are in good shape.  Also, API.org list SG as being obsolete.  :shocked:

http://www.api.org/products-and-services/engine-oil/eolcs-categories-and-documents/oil-categories#tab_gasoline

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #88 on: July 26, 2017, 05:13:58 PM »
This is what I run my local Hot Rod shop always has this in stock which is great.

https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=130


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Offline Lannis

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Re: Why is 10W60 Synthetic Specified?
« Reply #89 on: July 26, 2017, 05:16:30 PM »
This is what I run my local Hot Rod shop always has this in stock which is great.

https://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=130



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