Author Topic: CARC help please  (Read 2392 times)

Offline drdwb

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CARC help please
« on: April 13, 2019, 07:48:56 PM »
I’m servicing the rear end of my 2007 Norge and need help /suggestions about getting  the bolt in picture out, it’s on bottom  of the housing it self, It’s in so tight nothing seems to budge it and I’m afraid of rounding out the inside hex head, it feels like there are roller bearings in there that should be greased, since I’m there and greasing everything else. Mine must have been serviced before I got it as the bearings were all well lubed. I can’t tell if this bolt is threaded all the way, I believe so as even with more than a few good wraps on the Nut end, it hasn’t bugged it either. If there are no bearings Inside the pivot points on the housing I’d just grease the rest and slap it all back in. But I believe there are. Thanks
Oh another question, I took lots of pics taking it apart, but I didn’t get a close up of the dog bone, it seems it could go in with the Motoguzzi stamp up or down, does it matter?

Dave



« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 08:25:39 PM by drdwb »
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

pete roper

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2019, 08:34:22 PM »
That bolt has to come out. If it's seized try one heat but if you do that the seals on the linkage will probably be sacrificial.

If it's not been out for ages/ever it's important to use a decent hex socket. It's for jobs like this that a Snap On or other similar, high quality, socket is vital. I use my 3/8th key socket with a dirty great F*#@-off breaker bar and gradually up the torque. I haven't had one not break free yet. Be careful bot to loose the top hat bushing in the linkage.

Pete

Offline drdwb

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2019, 08:49:59 PM »
Thanks Pete I was afraid of that, tried heat lightly thinking about those seals, Not sure how I’ll get it out, hex head is slightly buggered already, suppose I can if necessary, sacrifice the bolt. I wonder how long it will take to get replacement. Shit.
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2019, 09:46:09 PM »
If you have one.. an impact driver and a big hummer copper hammer might be just the ticket.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2019, 09:46:09 PM »

Offline drdwb

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2019, 10:48:46 PM »
Lost cause, I had new Allen wrench, new Allen socket, but you know that sickening pit of the gut feeling when you feel the thing move but the bolt doesn’t, tried heat lightly but didn’t want to waste the bearing, so off to the machine shop Monday, frustrating. But I didn’t break anything. Time for a glass of wine and beer, in high school we called the combo “Sneaky Pete’s “.
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

pete roper

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2019, 11:59:01 PM »
I think what has happened is the bolt is rusted into the inner race of the bearing. This is like a 'Sleeve' that goes through the needle rollers.

If I remember rightly there is a nut on the end of that bolt that you've removed? I'd take the swingarm and fling it up in a press supported around the bolt on the hex head side and then press on the nut end of the bolt. Leave the nut on but with a gap between it and the swingarm boss. Chances are once the corrosion is broken it will wriggle out easily enough. Chances are though both needle rollers and race will be stuffed.

If the needle rollers are all looking a bit sorry for themselves I'd just buy a new linkage, bolt, nut and top hat bush and grease everything thoroughly before installing it.

What are the swingarm bearings like?

Pete

Offline drdwb

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2019, 01:21:43 AM »
Pete
The swing arm bearings looked great, races also looked very good and well greased,  the rest of the bearings were also very good. Looks liked one of the previous owners did lube those, or perhaps Guido wasn’t hung over that day. But seeing how seized up this bolt is and How easily the hex rounded out, my guess is this bolt may have been attempted by the PO and he couldn’t get it out, and / or was never lubed. I’ll try the vice thing tomorrow, I didn’t know if the bolt was threaded all the way, and since it didn’t budge with considerable persuasion I assumed it was. I didn’t want to bung up the threads Incase the bolt was threaded from head to toe.
Thanks
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

pete roper

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2019, 01:41:27 AM »
Nah. The bolt that goes through the bottom of the shock threads into the shock but that one is just a through bolt with a threaded end for the nut. The shankof the bolt is unthreaded.

If you have enormous problems sourcing the bolt I'm pretty sure I have one in stock.

Pete

Offline drdwb

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2019, 10:34:07 AM »




Here is diagram of the parts, the bolt #9 is most likely seized into the “T bush” #10, I have an attack plan I’ll try before more drastic measures like drilling and torch heat, At this point I’d like to salvage as much as possible, before I go nuclear on it.Guzzi mentality.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2019, 10:35:30 AM by drdwb »
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

twowings

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2019, 03:39:39 PM »
Soak it down with Kroil or PB Blaster?

Offline Huzo

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2019, 04:03:15 PM »
Soak it down with Kroil or PB Blaster?
Drill the head off ?

Offline drdwb

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2019, 06:13:07 PM »
After heat, soaking, gear puller exerting force on the threaded side, and multiple attempts with assorted hammers  and no success, I took out the grinder with a thin cutting wheel and managed to slip between the double Conrad and the swing arm points, than the threaded end with the T bush or as Pete calls it top hat spacer all came out easily, the hex head is still imbedded, and despite multiple attempts with hammer and various punches, and gear puller coming from the other side, it’s still in there laughing at me. So it was the head of the bolt that rusted in, the rest looks clean.

on the positive side it should be easy to drill out, I may try devising a chuck to hold the swing arm in place on the drill press and get a couple long ass bits and have my way with it yet. It’s also possible that an appropriate easy out might break the head free. I enjoy a challenge but I only have so much time.
On another positive note I found used replacement parts at Pinwall, so as long as I don’t mess up the swing arm housing I should be ok. There will be lots of grease and perhaps Anti seize used during reassembly.
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

Offline drdwb

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2019, 06:29:03 PM »
Here’s one of my attempts, that pipe clamp was straight when I started, there is a 16 mm socket on the Nut on the threaded end and a larger socket over the head on the bottom end, I straightened out the pipe and reversed the pipe clamp pulling from the other end instead of pushing with the same result. Maybe higher grade pipe might have helped. That’s when I decided to go to the grinder.




07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

Offline twhitaker

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2019, 06:41:36 AM »
It’s also possible that an appropriate easy out might break the head free.

The only appropriate 'easy' out is one that's in the trash.
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Offline tris

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2019, 07:58:37 AM »
Here’s one of my attempts, that pipe clamp was straight when I started, there is a 16 mm socket on the Nut on the threaded end and a larger socket over the head on the bottom end, I straightened out the pipe and reversed the pipe clamp pulling from the other end instead of pushing with the same result. Maybe higher grade pipe might have helped. That’s when I decided to go to the grinder.






GULP - mine wasn't that bad and like you it was the head that was stuck!

When I did my 2005 B11 a couple of months ago I spun a nut on to protect the thread and while supporting the the swing arm across the vice jaws dealt the bolt a goodly round of belts with a 4 lb club hammer

Suitably persuaded it came out
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Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2019, 08:34:43 AM »
I'm on a computer now, and can see. Tris has it. It's going to take shock. Liberally apply your favorite spooge to the whole works. Whack it a few times, and let it sit overnight. Support the casting around the head of the bolt, put the nut on loosely, and give it a whack or 7 with a BFH.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
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 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline drdwb

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2019, 07:54:50 PM »
I soaked it ,heated it,beat it, finally took it to machine shop. $50.00 later I’m at home with it.
They welded a Nut to the bolt head, beat some more than a big wrench finally got it out. Here you see the swing arm and what’s left of the bolt .






« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 07:56:18 PM by drdwb »
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2019, 08:44:29 PM »
Horry carp. I'd might think of using some anti seize on reassembly.   :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

pete roper

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2019, 08:53:15 PM »
How much heat did you have to put into it? :shocked: It's a very important casting, if it's been very overheated the little voice in my head would make me think twice about re-using it. There are plenty of second handies on the bay of fleas. Better safe than sorry.

Pete

Offline drdwb

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2019, 09:16:03 AM »
Pete thanks for the input. Before I took the grinder cutting wheel to it, I heated the threaded end to orange hot. I tried heat gun to the bolt head side which got it to hot to touch. At the machinist , I’m sure the head got hot, because they had to weld the Nut on the head 2 times to get it out. Would the heat of welding be enough to compromise it. The machinist tried heat before resorting to welding the Nut on, I’m not sure how hot he got it. The casing holes although corroded appear unmarked or altered from original to my eyes. I did consider getting a used one as you suggest, and still thinking about it. Also looking into a magnaflux process that looks for imperfections, at a locale aluminum extrusion factory here in town. But if costs more than a $65. eBay replacement might be cheaper. I’m considering my comfort level with this whole process.
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: CARC help please
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2019, 06:54:35 AM »
Pete thanks for the input. Before I took the grinder cutting wheel to it, I heated the threaded end to orange hot. I tried heat gun to the bolt head side which got it to hot to touch. At the machinist , I’m sure the head got hot, because they had to weld the Nut on the head 2 times to get it out. Would the heat of welding be enough to compromise it. The machinist tried heat before resorting to welding the Nut on, I’m not sure how hot he got it. The casing holes although corroded appear unmarked or altered from original to my eyes. I did consider getting a used one as you suggest, and still thinking about it. Also looking into a magnaflux process that looks for imperfections, at a locale aluminum extrusion factory here in town. But if costs more than a $65. eBay replacement might be cheaper. I’m considering my comfort level with this whole process.
It doesn't sound to me that it has been over heated. I'd use it, but let your conscience be your guide. "You" are the guy that will be riding it. FWIW, I have seen homebuilt airplanes where the guy that built it was afraid to fly it. He knows every little thing that isn't perfect, even though it is perfectly airworthy.. :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

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