Legnano Green

[moto]

This is considered one of the finest photographs in the Wikipedia Commons(!). It is called "Assembling the North American B-25 Mitchell at Kansas City," and shows zinc chromate primer painted on the aircraft. It's similar to the color of the Telaio Rosso I posted above, but even more yellow. I'm posting it  mostly because it's a cool picture.

[lucky phil]

This is considered one of the finest photographs in the Wikipedia Commons(!). It is called "Assembling the North American B-25 Mitchell at Kansas City," and shows zinc chromate primer painted on the aircraft. It's similar to the color of the Telaio Rosso I posted above. I'm posting it  mostly because it's a cool picture.

That's not Zink Chromate finish I don't believe. That is aluminium skin treated with Alodine and 814 surface prep before any paint application. I've done a lot of this surface prep on aircraft 45 years ago as an apprentice. The 814 was a mild acid and we used to rub the bare surface with it and scotchbrite then immediately was it off with water and use the Alodine on the fresh silver aluminium which then immediately turned that translucent greenish gold. Zink Chromate doesn't have that translucent finish even when just thinly applied.

http://kracon.com/case-study-re-painting-a-metal-plane/





Phil

[Dave Swanson]

The MG museum bike is legnano green of course.   I felt bound to painting mine the same color it came from the factory with, but if I hadn't been so constrained I would have considered the green.  Nice color.

[moto]

That's not Zink Chromate finish I don't believe. ...

Phil

What's in a name?

Phil, the caption to the photo, in the Zinc Chromate Wikipedia article, says it is zinc chromate, and there is a lot of material online saying that zinc chromate was used for the purpose at the time, which was more like 80 years ago, not 45. Alodine is a proprietary chromating process different from pure zinc chromate, I read.

To all: My original intent was not to correct anyone but myself. I had worried whether my T3's new paint matched the original color called Legnano green, which I found out was the color of Legnano bicycles from 1930 onward and had nothing to do with Moto Guzzi, or with zinc chromate so far as I can tell.

Opening Greg Field's book revealed that Lino Tonti wanted the Telaio's Rosso's tank color to mimic a zinc chromate primer used on the 1950's racers, of which there were and are many examples at the factory. Reading a little about zinc chromate reveals that different shades and colors of "zinc chromate" paint were created by adding pigments. Adding lamp black produced various greenish colors generically called "zinc chromate green." Probably one of those colors was Tonti's intent. This had nothing to do with Legnano bicycles or their signature green color.

I doubt that any factory documents from that time, about 1971, will be found that use the term "Legnano green." I think it is a later accretion. [EDIT: It could have been adopted by the factory to describe a different paint on the early 70's production model I suppose. I'm getting in over my head.]

If Guzzi or anyone else in later years wanted or wants to use the term "Legnano green" to refer to something different from the bicycle color, or something different from the color of that Telaio Rosso tank in the Moto Guzzi photo I posted earlier, there is nothing stopping them. But that photo and Tonti's story tell me I was barking up the wrong tree by trying to match the bicycle color.

This is much ado about nothing. I need to get to replacing the inner seal on my rear drive instead of worrying about a name.

Moto

[cliffrod]

The two World Record bikes built by Tonti in 1969 had bodywork “painted” with zinc chromate.  This was apparently not done as a fashion statement but was simply a utilitarian way to not have bare aluminum bodywork.   Guzzi did such things in the past with other special  bikes.  Zinc Chromate is a functional coating without a particularly determinant color like actual paint, so it varies in hue or value depending upon different factors.  It is notorious for looking different in person than in photographs, in different lighting, etc so reproducing that “color” is more about chance than anything else.  I’ve read that in aircraft use, it was sometimes used in combination with other colored primers to provide visual indication of how many coatings different areas of an aircraft were primed or treated to readily ensure that certain specifications were met.

My very similar Lime Gold 1967 Mustang was beautiful on an overcast, cloudy day with no strong sunlight.  On a bright sunny day, it looked like washed out weird yellow-green crap so my friends called it babys—- green..

According to (iirc) Fallon’s book, The “Legnano” or whatever Green on the original V7 Sport was only coincidental in relationship to the direct World Record Bike ancestry and its green zinc chromate bodywork.  It was the product of a market study and contemporary leanings of the youthful target audience of the marketing dept.   

[moto]

...
According to (iirc) Fallon’s book, The “Legnano” or whatever Green on the original V7 Sport was only coincidental in relationship to the direct World Record Bike ancestry and its green zinc chromate bodywork.  It was the product of a market study and contemporary leanings of the youthful target audience of the marketing dept.

That doesn't explain the red frame, unlike the Greg Field/Lino Tonti account. Also, Falloon's story is hard to believe on its face, since the original Telaio Rosso was not a production model, but one created in a hurry for homologation. There would not have been a marketing study to determine its paint.

I'd believe Tonti unless Falloon cites convincing sources. (However, Tonti didn't always tell the truth, it seems. See Greg's great book for his account of the magical six second improvement in lap times Tonti claimed when he was selling the V7 Sport to his manager.)

Maybe Falloon was referring to the later production model? There were different shades of green on different V7 Sport models, for sure.

Moto

[cliffrod]

That doesn't explain the red frame, unlike the Greg Field/Lino Tonti account. Also, Falloon's story is hard to believe on its face, since the original Telaio Rosso was not a production model, but one created in a hurry for homologation. There would not have been a marketing study to determine its paint.

I'd believe Tonti unless Falloon cites convincing sources. (However, Tonti didn't always tell the truth, it seems. See Greg's great book for his account of the magical six second improvement in lap times Tonti claimed when he was selling the V7 Sport to his manager.)

Maybe Falloon was referring to the later production model? There were different shades of green on different V7 Sport models, for sure.

Moto

I have no idea re which green for which model, nor the red frame detail.  It’s easy if not logical to assume some direct relationship between the World record bikes, subsequent “Guzzi sets (many) world records” ad campaign and the resulting V7 Sport with similar green bodywork.  I thought there was a connection.    That’s why, in searching for details about the Record bikes, that statement about the focus group stood out.   Is it the truth?  I can’t say either way. 

If Tonti wanted similar green bodywork for the new sport bike derived from the two Record bikes he built,  that seems like one vote for that kind of green.  If that outside Market Study contractor found the contemporary younger target audience also liked a similar green color, that would be another vote for the same. 

It’s easy to forget that no one created these bikes or colors thinking it would be debated for decades, restored, etc etc.  people want new and improved, not last year’s anything. Companies provide that to stay in business, including Moto Guzzi which was crawling out of bankruptcy at the time.  Status quo is not good enough for most consumers.  If it was,  we would all still be riding a V700 and maybe a V7 Sport, if not a Falcone…. And as consistently inconsistent as are many of the smaller details on old Italian motorcycles built during analog-everything era, having minor variations in a weird shade of green paint over different model years seems pretty normal.

[rocker59]

having minor variations in a weird shade of green paint over different model years seems pretty normal.

It's very normal.  Especially on Italian machines.  Let's not get into "Alfa Racing Red".  LOL!

[lucky phil]

What's in a name?

Phil, the caption to the photo, in the Zinc Chromate Wikipedia article, says it is zinc chromate, and there is a lot of material online saying that zinc chromate was used for the purpose at the time, which was more like 80 years ago, not 45. Alodine is a proprietary chromating process different from pure zinc chromate, I read.

To all: My original intent was not to correct anyone but myself. I had worried whether my T3's new paint matched the original color called Legnano green, which I found out was the color of Legnano bicycles from 1930 onward and had nothing to do with Moto Guzzi, or with zinc chromate so far as I can tell.

Opening Greg Field's book revealed that Lino Tonti wanted the Telaio's Rosso's tank color to mimic a zinc chromate primer used on the 1950's racers, of which there were and are many examples at the factory. Reading a little about zinc chromate reveals that different shades and colors of "zinc chromate" paint were created by adding pigments. Adding lamp black produced various greenish colors generically called "zinc chromate green." Probably one of those colors was Tonti's intent. This had nothing to do with Legnano bicycles or their signature green color.

I doubt that any factory documents from that time, about 1971, will be found that use the term "Legnano green." I think it is a later accretion. [EDIT: It could have been adopted by the factory to describe a different paint on the early 70's production model I suppose. I'm getting in over my head.]

If Guzzi or anyone else in later years wanted or wants to use the term "Legnano green" to refer to something different from the bicycle color, or something different from the color of that Telaio Rosso tank in the Moto Guzzi photo I posted earlier, there is nothing stopping them. But that photo and Tonti's story tell me I was barking up the wrong tree by trying to match the bicycle color.

This is much ado about nothing. I need to get to replacing the inner seal on my rear drive instead of worrying about a name.

Moto

I like most refer to Wiki from time to time but it's often full of errors. There's also a difference between Wiki reading and doing. BTW the aero industry stopped using Zink Chromate quite a while back due to health reasons. You can still buy it but many companies in the aero industry haven't used it for years along with Mastinox due to health concerns. As for referencing anything in technical detail from Ian Falloon I can tell you I wouldn't use any technical details in his books as an absolute reference. I have many of his books on Ducatis and also Guzzi and they are riddled with technical and information detail errors including his latest "the complete book of Moto Guzzi". They are ok for "coffee table reading" but not as a factual technical reference.

Phil

[moto]

I like most refer to Wiki from time to time but it's often full of errors. ...

True that. But I looked elsewhere than Wikipedia to find many references to zinc chromate being used in the 30's and 40's on U.S. military aircraft. You weren't there, if you were doing similar work 45 years ago. So your experience from the 1970's is not relevant to this 1940's image.

I never suggested relying on Falloon. Instead, I cited Greg Field who had his information from Lino Tonti.

Moto

[cliffrod]

No, I mentioned the reference to Falloon’s book as one more potential piece to the puzzle.   I found that excerpt online in a pdf and spent the money I saved on bike parts (Guzzi content.). Very cool…. 

Many books/authors have limited technical value.  Mick Walker’s Ducati Singles book is ridiculous if you have more than two or three reasonably original Ducati singles on hand for comparison to his asserted “facts.”   That was the last & only Mick Walker book that I opened, much less purchased.  I had seen enough.   But those people keep selling books because people keep buying them. 

Wiki makes the worst coffee table books look astute because at least the books had to go through an author, editor, publisher, distributor, etc.  Even factory service manuals, which must be written/edited/published in synch with actual production (and thus likely to not be representative of final production configuration & details) can be of limited value in terms of reference for restoration work. 

The actual machines speak the truth, especially the original unrestored examples.  Without exception, everything else is suspect.

[moto]

...
If Tonti wanted similar green bodywork for the new sport bike derived from the two Record bikes he built,  that seems like one vote for that kind of green.  If that outside Market Study contractor found the contemporary younger target audience also liked a similar green color, that would be another vote for the same. 

It’s easy to forget that no one created these bikes or colors thinking it would be debated for decades, restored, etc etc.  people want new and improved, not last year’s anything. ...

It wasn't the two world record bikes that Tonti was referencing. It was all the great grand prix motorcycles that Guzzi campaigned after World War II up to 1957. These racing machines had no gloss paint at all, but wore only zinc chromate primer. This was to save weight, hard though that may be to believe. The head engineer responsible for those grand prix racers, Carcano, did everything possible to reduce weight, lower the center of gravity, reduce frontal area, and even perfect the fairing and the positions that riders assumed in Guzzi's own wind tunnel. The tiniest weight savings were sought, for example using single instead of double coil valve springs, according to the book I will mention in a moment. As a result, the one-cylinder Guzzi 350 competed successfully against Gilera's four-cylinder 350.

Tonti definitely knew all of the above. His choice of a green color for the tank honored those grand prix racers, and the choice of a red frame honored the non-grand prix racers like the Dondolino and the Falcone, which were painted red. To repeat, this was a choice he made for the Telaio Rossos, the homologation bikes, not for a production run.

The pre-1957 racing history of Guzzi is extremely interesting and worth exploring. There are lots of books, but I don't have very many. The single most insightful account of Carcano's strategy I have encountered is in L.J.K. Setright, Motorcycles, 1976. Used copies of this book concerning 30 different historical motorcycles (only one a Guzzi) are available on Amazon for $15 and up.

Here is a nice photo from Setright's book showing the color of the zinc chromate green on the Guzzi 500cc V8 that Dickie Dale rode in the 1957 TT, which he had just finished:





We are also very lucky to have an Italian mainstream color motion picture drama that shows the Guzzi and Gilera GP racers competing in 1957, their last season. Other equally interesting races are also shown in it, including the Milano-Taranto race over the length of Italy, with a prominent role for a Guzzi Falcone in red. The movie is I fidanzati della morte, available in Italian with English subtitles at www.rodaggiofilm.com. Twenty five euros gets you a DVD plus a very nice booklet in Italian with English translations for most sections. Or you can stream the movie there for six Euros, just about six dollars at present. I and others here made contributions to have this movie restored and released.

Guzzi has long been a factory very conscious of its history and pretty disinclined to follow market signals. It kept its trademark horizontal singles in production from 1921 into the 1970's, and its later V-twin from the 1960's until the present. Guzzi has been more than happy to offer the buyer "last year's anything" through much of its history.

I've been on this forum for 20 years (my first account, Moto, was lost). It's easy to forget that not everyone has. I hope that you will enjoy finding out about those earlier zinc chromate green racers.

Moto

[moto]

No, I mentioned the reference to Falloon’s book as one more potential piece to the puzzle.   I found that excerpt online in a pdf and spent the money I saved on bike parts (Guzzi content.). Very cool…. 

Many books/authors have limited technical value.  Mick Walker’s Ducati Singles book is ridiculous if you have more than two or three reasonably original Ducati singles on hand for comparison to his asserted “facts.”   That was the last & only Mick Walker book that I opened, much less purchased.  I had seen enough.   But those people keep selling books because people keep buying them. 

Wiki makes the worst coffee table books look astute because at least the books had to go through an author, editor, publisher, distributor, etc.  Even factory service manuals, which must be written/edited/published in synch with actual production (and thus likely to not be representative of final production configuration & details) can be of limited value in terms of reference for restoration work. 

The actual machines speak the truth, especially the original unrestored examples.  Without exception, everything else is suspect.

The actual machines are completely silent on the reasons for their existence and the motivations of their designers, which is what you were speculating about.

I never cited Mick Walker; you're grasping at straws in attacking an author I had no use for.

The book I cited first was Moto Guzzi Big Twins, by an author I have personally met who had cooperation from Tonti and other Guzzi employees. This is not just any book, and it's certainly not a book by Mick Walker.

The second book I cited (as I recall) was the one by L.J.K. Setright, a well-regarded automotive researcher and author. He was a fellow of the (British) Institute of Mechanical Engineers and author of about 20 books on automotive topics, according to Wikipedia, which of course you need not believe if you don't want to.

As for the topic of zinc chromate itself, I looked at Wikipedia and then at various non-Wikipedia discussions, on the internet. I don't take Wikipedia as authoritative, but I do believe in the worth of looking at a variety of materials. I never claimed to be an expert on zinc chromate, only a seeker of knowledge!

Moto

[cliffrod]

Guzzi has long been a factory very conscious of its history and pretty disinclined to follow market signals. It kept its trademark horizontal singles in production from 1921 into the 1970's, and its later V-twin from the 1960's until the present. Guzzi has been more than happy to offer the buyer "last year's anything" through much of its history.

I've been on this forum for 20 years (my first account, Moto, was lost). It's easy to forget that not everyone has. I hope that you will enjoy finding out about those earlier zinc chromate green racers.

Moto

Yup, I am well aware of the Guzzi tradition of using only primer on race bikes to save weight- literally decades before I ever delved into the specific Record bike saga or found WildGuzzi.   20 yrs ago, I was already years past my 2nd build/rebuild of my well-flogged V7 Sport. 

Trying to translate the spontaneity of a purpose-built race bike into a production model is a compromise at best.  Otherwise, customers would accept a bike on its merit alone and not its cosmetic level of finish.  That may have worked many decades ago but didn’t seem to be the case after MG went into receivership in 1965-66.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Had one in that condition. Purty thang. Hated to ride it though.. it was a museum piece.

[AAAltered468]

Bill, I happened to roll up on this Prius today and had time to snap pics.  Did not research the color name but it may be the same as the Toyota TRD truck posted earlier…

Ed

[czakky82]

Ed! With the awesome 2 stroke yammie!

I know it. Now that I’ve been looking, I see a similar color everywhere! I’m getting further away from a DIY paint job and closer to a pro job. My concern is two fold with the pro’s… One is that I really like to get a few layers of clear, like 7-9 thin coats. The other is if I it doesn’t hold up usually bad paint jobs is they are fine for atleast 6mos. Let’s be honest here no painter is going to help you out that far out! If nothing when I paint stuff it lasts!

@ foto, if I can’t get an acceptable color match I’ll just do black tins, the frame is already done though…