Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: dirtiegirtie on June 10, 2021, 02:32:04 PM
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I have a 2015 V7 stone (I'm in the USA, so it is NOT an ii model). She only has 5.5k miles on her. I've always thought that she shook much more than she should at lower revs, and today I tried to keep the revs over 4k into work... so much smoother!
When folks say, "Don't lug her" I assumed they meant try not to run her under 2k. But it's like there is a 'smoothness' switch right around 3,800-4,000 RPMs.
So what is the real definition of "lugging" for my V7? Is it anything under 2k? under 3k? 3.5k? Or is anything under 4k "lugging it" on these machines?
To understand my perspective: My other bike is a Yamaha Raider. There is no such thing as lugging her. Full torque is pretty much available at Idle... so that's been my 'main' personal experience for the last few years.
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I think you have been lugging her. Italian engines usualy like more revs. I have not owned a V7 but plenty of other Guzzis and the last time I rode a V7 I did not notice any vibration. Keep the revs above 2k, sweet spot is usually around 4k. You will learn what the engine likes. Do not be afraid to rev it. It is much more damaging for the engine and transmission to be lugged. I guess the owners of V7s will chime in soon.
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A rule to thumb, on big blocks it's around 3K before it smooths out & small blocks is 1000rpm higher. Always been that way since the beginning of smallblocks.
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As noted in the previous post the V7 has a definite sweet spot and it's at a higher RPM than you've been riding. When riding at too low an RPM you'll get low vibration 'shudder' which is rough on the engine and drive train.
Didn't have a tach on my V7 III Stone but would say the engine was happiest at half-throttle which would equate to 3500-5000. Just bring the revs up in any particular gear and you'll notice when it smooths out and again when higher frequency vibes come in. Find those lower and higher rev points and shift to keep the engine between them. Both you and the bike will be happier.
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with the minimum amount of time I have with Guzzi (v7 and some odd test rides), I ride her at the RPM where she feels smooth...
it was above 2.5K for my V7 while the V85TT first gen I test rode was more like in 4....
so...can't comment if you been lugging her but sounds like she wasn't happy.
Give a bit more rev I would say.
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My 2016 V7 II has good torque at low (2500) RPM but is happiest at 3500 or above. Most of my riding is at 3500-5000. Let 'er spin!
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Talk to smithswede, he has over 100,000 on his V7 actually 123,456 miles just the other day :laugh: he runs the @#$& out of his! I rode behind him on the Cal-Vin not long ago
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Hi Dirtie, 6-10-21
Ditto to a lot that has already been said. I can add from experience that my two Cali 1400's cruise best at 3500-4k range. They are smooth, the right mix of hp and torque are available at that rpm range, and they just sound unstressed (very unscientific, I know). Don't be afraid to let it run. :wink:
Be well, stay well,
DougG
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my cal-vin is happy @ 42. I don't go to 5th under 80 MPH
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And holy crap , Yamaha Raider , you're setting the bar a bit high for that dinky little Guzzi , don't you think. :embarrassed: . Peter
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the ones I have had love being flogged. show no mercy, rev it out.
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I try to keep my 1400 above 3K. It's much happier there.
6th gear is really an overdrive and I'm getting used to that.
-Stretch
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A lot of riders think they are being kind to their bikes by keeping the revs down but especially with Guzzis that is not the case. Only time to keep the revs low is during warm up. Besides making the engine work harder it tends to hammer drive line components. Tape the tach face so you can’t see the needle below 4K.
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Just adding my .02 to the pile. I try not to let my Quota 1100 drop below 3500. I usually keep it around 4, which on two lane roads means it’s a 4 speed! :afro:
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Coming out of 1st is the only time I shift at 4000rpms. Everything else gets to 4200 or 4500 (sometimes 4700). I basically shift it like a VW Bug. :bike-037:
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Coming out of 1st is the only time I shift at 4000rmps. Everything else gets to 4200 or 4500 (sometimes 4700). I basically shift it like a VW Bug. :bike-037:
This!
The 2015 is happy at 4500 and up. 4000 is min in 4000 in 1&2.
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I have a 2015 V7 stone (I'm in the USA, so it is NOT an ii model). She only has 5.5k miles on her. I've always thought that she shook much more than she should at lower revs, and today I tried to keep the revs over 4k into work... so much smoother!
I was gonna refrain from answering because bottom line it's not a set number. Lugging is based on the motor design plus ambient conditions which equals load, altitude, and temperature.
As someone who prefers large bore twins I tend to enjoy lower rpm twins. But I've equally recognized Guzzis like to spin a little more.
Your own post answers the question. If it smooths out at a higher rpm, well, that's the right rpm.
That said in not sure of the hard numbers people have posted. I've found many of my Guzzis are happy even with my not so small load on em at ~3k. And smallblocks have been tuned for lower and lower rpm since the 1tb models debuted, even moreso since the Hemi heads. But at the end of the day it's still load and ambient dependent.
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6th gear is really an overdrive
Please tell me what you mean by that ?
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Wot they said
Plus at that mileage it's barely run in, it will seem to have more power and rev more freely as it gets some more miles under the belt.
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The old wisdom says that the Guzzi will protest more at lower rpm / high throttle setting combinations , more than a comparable 360 degree twin.
If No 1 fires at zero degrees, No 2 fires at 270 degrees.
So it is another 450 degrees before No1 fires again etc...
The addition of the two adds up to (correctly) 720 degrees.
It can be seen that there is a shorter pause between #1 & #2, than the subsequent interval from #2 and around again to #1.
The flywheel decelerates slightly between power pulses and must accelerate again during the downgoing piston movement on the power stroke. The relatively heavy flywheel can mask this a bit, but not hide it completely.
The “shaking” of the engine, whilst pleasant in some respects to ones senses, is a physical manifestation of the torture that is being wrought upon the mechanicals within.
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The old wisdom says that the Guzzi will protest more at lower rpm / high throttle setting combinations, more than a comparable 360 degree twin.
The “shaking” of the engine, whilst pleasant in some respects to ones senses, is a physical manifestation of the torture that is being wrought upon the mechanicals within.
You lost me in the first sentence and got me back in the last. :bow:
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Thanks, folks. Clearly I have to get used to keeping the RPMs up on her. Much appreciated!
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You lost me in the first sentence and got me back in the last. :bow:
Suffice to say GG, that a Guzzi puts it’s power to the ground like a cantering horse.
Dum..Dum......Dum.. Dum.....Dum..Dum... Guzzi etc
Dum...Dum...Dum...D um...Dum...Dum....B MW boxer etc
If you notice the second example, you’ll see that there are even dots (time intervals) between the bangs.
Although both examples deliver the same number of pulses (basically) in the same time span.
If you are pushing your kids out of the door to go to school, they will slow down in between pushes. The best way is to push them every 2 seconds.
If you push them once then wait 5 seconds and then give them another one, they’ll have slowed down and will continue forward in a series of intermittent lunges...
Once you get them moving at a pace where they’re about to crash forward on their faces, the motion starts to smooth out.
Sound more familiar now...?
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When the output shaft is turning slower than the input shaft of the transmission. Any ratio that is less than 1 to 1, such as 1 to .80 for instance, is considered overdrive.
John Henry
As I suspected...
I was enquiring as to the accuracy of Stretch’s statement that 6 th gear on his bike was “really an overdrive..”
It’s an often used phrase, but I’m suspecting that the output shaft in the gearbox, is not spinning faster than the input shaft in any gear.
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I’m still getting used to riding a Guzzi, but my v50 needs high revs to find its power. It seems happiest around 5,000 rpm. I like to ride it up in the rev range just because it sounds so good.
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My point is that 6th is really only useful at speed on the highway, which is kinda the purpose of
an "overdrive." Based on the information below - 6th IS an overdrive on the big California.
o·ver·drive
/ˈōvərˌdrīv/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: overdrive; plural noun: overdrives
1.
a gear in a motor vehicle providing a gear ratio higher than that of direct drive (the usual top gear), so that the engine speed can be reduced at high road speeds to lessen fuel consumption or to allow further acceleration.
https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/moto%20guzzi/moto_guzzi_california_1400%2017.htm (https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/moto%20guzzi/moto_guzzi_california_1400%2017.htm)
5th gear is listed here at 1:0.968 and 6th is listed at 1:0.8. So, it might be argued that both 5th and 6th
are technically overdrive gears.
My experience is that 6th on this bike is really only used when getting on for 70 MPH or more unless one wants to "lug" the motor.
Under very light throttle at 65 MPH or so, the motor shows no signs of lugging, but it ain't gonna accelerate very
well under those conditions, and will let the rider know that - "Hey, I don't like this! Shift down a cog or two will ya!"
My Rocket iii Touring has the following ratios:
Gear Ratio 1st: 41/14 / 2nd: 37/19 / 3rd: 33/23 / 4th: 29/25 / 5th: 27/28
It doesn't like anything below about 60 in top for the same reasons as the big California doesn't. And it looks like
5th in that case is designed as an overdrive as well.
-Stretch
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Yes Stretch, the final drive ratio in the gearbox is numerically speaking an over drive, however the overall reduction down the drive train from the crank to the rear wheel still represents an approximate ratio of about 3.5:1
3.5 revs of the crank to one rev of the rear wheel.
The crank still has a large mechanical advantage over the rear wheel.
For instance at 3,000 engine rpm, your Cali 1400 might be around 100 kph, if the rear wheel was doing the same rpm, the bike would be doing around 350 kph.
So it can be seen that the overall ratio is still about 3.5:1
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For instance at 3,000 engine rpm, your Cali 1400 might be around 100 kph, if the rear wheel was doing the same rpm, the bike would be doing around 350 kph.
And wouldn't THAT be somethin'! :shocked: :grin:
'Course, the engine doesn't have enough power to overcome the aerodynamic resistance
at that speed, especially at 3,500 RPM.........
In any semantical event, 6th gear on the Cali is a gear for hi-speed, long-distance running, yes?! :laugh:
-Stretch
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And wouldn't THAT be somethin'! :shocked: :grin:
'Course, the engine doesn't have enough power to overcome the aerodynamic resistance
at that speed, especially at 3,500 RPM.........
In any semantical event, 6th gear on the Cali is a gear for hi-speed, long-distance running, yes?! :laugh:
-Stretch
Anything on a 1400 Cali will eat miles like baked beans... :thumb: :bike-037:
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Drop two gears and call me in the morning..
To quote a fairly recent v7 review
“Shift at 7200 to get back into the power band”
My experience is with a 2007 Nevada, 16k, twin throttle bodies
I like to sit between 5-6000 rpm running down the road, 3rd or 4th gear. 5th someday in texas
3rd gear at 6k is…..65mph. TRY IT! The motor starts to sing like a Swiss watch.
At that point I’m sitting on the point of max power…just a touch of throttle it wants to leap
Just a touch less throttle, and it’s max engine braking
Yes, you can chug around like an agricultural tractor for vast distances across the prairie at 85mph
But, you might like looking for the rev limiter, too..
And I’m NOT talking about an increase in actual speed going down the road, or a slam bam wfo throttle
I’m suggesting a slow steady rise to a higher rpm and hold it there.shift at 5k for awhile…next time out a little higher.
Your also getting your ears use to it. You can’t break it, it has a rev limiter!
Of course ymmv and be safe
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In my opinion, yes, you are lugging it. You should rountinely be between 4 and 5K revs. If you are slowing down into a town, and barely asking for any power, in a low gear, then 3,500 is ok. I would not go lower than that.
When you need sustained power, again do the engine a favor and drop down a gear or two to let it rev. For example, if you have to give it 3/4 throttle ascending a steep grade, and your revs are down to 4,200 rpm, go ahead and drop down to fourth gear and get into the 5K range. That is much easier on the engine.
The higher revs won’t hurt it, and your engine and drivetrain will be happier.
As a side note, I have a theory that some people don’t like smaller engines because for whatever reason they don’t like to work them hard. But that’s where the fun is. Go ahead and shift the gears as needed and use high revs and make the smaller engine work for a living. (Of course, it’s still only 45 horsepower, but at least you are getting that)
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Dum..Dum......Dum.. Dum.....Dum..Dum... Guzzi etc
Dum...Dum...Dum...D um...Dum...Dum....B MW boxer etc
I get it with the BMW, but calling my Guzzi a dum dum is FIGTING WORDS !!
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Lugging is a hard thing to describe/quantify. There's nothing wrong with running at low RPM provided you're not putting much of a load on the engine.
I sometimes apply the least amount of throttle possible on a level stretch of road, starting from a stop, and shift at 3800 rpm for the first few gears. My bike just eats it up. Again...throttle BARELY open.
Other than that, I shift north of 4500 rpm. Let 'er run.
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Remember: the rev limiter is a safety device and should be tested on a regular basis.... :evil:
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Lugging is a hard thing to describe/quantify. There's nothing wrong with running at low RPM provided you're not putting much of a load on the engine.
I sometimes apply the least amount of throttle possible on a level stretch of road, starting from a stop, and shift at 3800 rpm for the first few gears. My bike just eats it up. Again...throttle BARELY open.
Other than that, I shift north of 4500 rpm. Let 'er run.
Where is that Like button :grin: Agree 100%.
I think another thing is often stock fueling isn't so great in the 1500-4000 rpm range so a person's unhappy engine isn't exactly lugging so much as going through a bad fueling zone. So a better statement is "my bike runs kind of crappy until I hit 4K rpms, so I tend to run it 4K and higher".
When I was working With Beetle on a better map for my V7 iii, I told him that it felt a bit grumbly from 3K rpm to about 3750 rpms ... he sent me another map ... then it was super smooth thru that range.
So my back road rpms are like 2800 rpms - 5K rpms, no grumbly, no unhappy engine, no lugging.
But sure, I guess if I had it in 6th gear at 2000 rpm, and quickly turn the throttle wide open, then I would be lugging it. But rolling on the throttle at ~2500 or 2800 rpms it runs great.
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Agreed. You aren’t lugging the engine when it is at idle, even though only 1,200 rpm. There’s no load.
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As to Huzo’s point about Guzzi timing versus BMW flat twin. A Guzzi 90 degree twin is a 270/450 degree engine in terms of when each cylinder fires.
Imagine a steady drum beat, in musical time. beat, beat, beat, etc.
A Guzzi is this:
BANG. beat, beat BANG. beat, beat, beat, beat.
Then repeat.
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Suffice to say GG, that a Guzzi puts it’s power to the ground like a cantering horse.
Dum..Dum......Dum.. Dum.....Dum..Dum... Guzzi etc
Dum...Dum...Dum...D um...Dum...Dum....B MW boxer etc
If you notice the second example, you’ll see that there are even dots (time intervals) between the bangs.
Although both examples deliver the same number of pulses (basically) in the same time span.
If you are pushing your kids out of the door to go to school, they will slow down in between pushes. The best way is to push them every 2 seconds.
If you push them once then wait 5 seconds and then give them another one, they’ll have slowed down and will continue forward in a series of intermittent lunges...
Once you get them moving at a pace where they’re about to crash forward on their faces, the motion starts to smooth out.
Sound more familiar now...?
Way too familiar! :evil:
Sh!t, now I wanna go for a ride and it's gonna be effing HOT out there. :bike-037:
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As to Huzo’s point about Guzzi timing versus BMW flat twin. A Guzzi 90 degree twin is a 270/450 degree engine in terms of when each cylinder fires.
Imagine a steady drum beat, in musical time. beat, beat, beat, etc.
A Guzzi is this:
BANG. beat, beat BANG. beat, beat, beat, beat.
Then repeat.
Smithy you have explained that where even a simple guy like me can grasp 👍
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Shift at 5K rpm's and cruise at 4K & + rpm's. You'll like it and your bike will too. Rolling accelerations will be quicker. :thumb:
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What about takeoff RPM?
I have a 2001 EV and it seems luggy at take off from a standstill.
I can rev it what seems fairly high on takeoff and it still lugs (haven't taken note of the actual RPM, I'm guessing 3k or so).
Idle set correctly at about 1100.
Even remapped.
I realize it's geared high, but I have no other 1100s to compare to.
Whatcha think?
Thanks,
Brent
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Launch at 2K rpm's it first gear.
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For sure keep it in a higher rev range. I think I understand why some people like to ride around 3k/3.5k, maybe even a little lower, as there is that nice rumble thing and Guzzis have low end torque, so they may feel like the bike is delivering. As many have said, things start to come together around 4K, and from there the bike opens up, smooths out, pulls way better and is really smiling. Shifts are much better at higher revs as well. I like to cruise in 5k/5.5k and hammer it from there to around 6.5k, and shift accordingly. I really don’t let it get below 4K, unless I’m dealing with crazy traffic conditions that require full mental attention. Those are the only times that I may lug a little, using the low end torque to do the traffic accordion thing in 2nd or 3rd gear and not having to focus on shifting so much. Otherwise, use your gearbox, and keep it up, blip the throttle for downshifting at higher revs if that helps you.
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Shift at 5K rpm's and cruise at 4K & + rpm's. You'll like it and your bike will too. Rolling accelerations will be quicker. :thumb:
That"s me Tom (although I must admit I love taking the baby B. into the 7+ range. Loves me the sound of La Franconi playing Symphony in Second and the roar of the 2TB intakes).
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I get it with the BMW, but calling my Guzzi a dum dum is FIGTING WORDS !!
Figting words ?
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Lugging is when you open the throttle and the engine rpm does not increase....Excepti on would be at high speeds when the engine lacks the power to overcome air resistance...
When riding through town on my 900 carbureted Monster it's more pleasant to drone along at 2200 rpm n lower gears than like boy racer at 3500 rpm. Like a Guzzi it will shake if too much throttle is used at low rpm, but I don't believe it's lugging because the load is very light...
Bottom line, have any of you ever seen a Guzzi engine damaged by lugging? Classic example would be a piston holed by preignition or broken rings from detonation.
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Bottom line, have any of you ever seen a Guzzi engine damaged by lugging? Classic example would be a piston holed by preignition or broken rings from detonation.
If anyone here was enough of a muppet to destroy an engine in that way, you’d think he’d have enough good decision making power left over (since he hasn’t burned any up to date), to not tell every man and his dog.
So you’ll not be privy to the occurrence.
Also, in a solid majority of the cases, they don’t do enough work on them to find out.
They usually decide that the screen is 2.5 mm wrong in height, or the ‘pegs are a minuscule distance off perfection and sell the bastard with 2,300 miles added.
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They usually decide that the screen is 2.5 mm wrong in height, or the ‘pegs are a minuscule distance off perfection and sell the bastard with 2,300 miles added.
Ain’t that the truth!
When I was a teenager growing up in Atlanta, I would sometimes ride with the father of my best friend up in the North Georgia mountains. He was an English professor, and an extremely bright man in certain dimensions. But essentially an imbecile when it came to mechanical subjects, electricity, physics, etc.
Anyway, one weekend his brother came to town. Somehow these two decided that the best test of manliness and riding prowess would be to see who could ride the longest stretch of a certain mountain road while staying in top gear.
His brother destroyed his Honda CX500 in the process. He was riding a BMW R65, and it was a sick machine afterwards. He sold it.
This story was related to me with pride, as if something macho and commendable had occurred. I was—and still am—stunned at the stupidity. He knew a lot more than I did about Samuel Beckett and William Faulkner, but . . .
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This is an enlightening thread. It made me really pay attention while cruising today’s daily commute, much of it dodging and out-running the hyperactive lemmings in cages. The sweet spot kicks in around 4.5k, and it’s lovely from there on up. But while the sub-4K vibes fade out, another higher frequency vibe emerges around 6k, more buzzy than thumpy. While it’s easy to dig in between 6k-7k as the power is there and waiting, I wonder if the engine is happiest running between 4.5k-6k. This is on a V11 motor.
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I wonder if the engine is happiest running between 4.5k-6k. This is on a V11 motor.
Again, I think it has a lot to do with fuel/ignition map (or carb jets) and tuning/setup. My Quota (v11 motor) is happy from 2000 rpms and up ... I can come out of a corner at 2500 rpm, roll on the throttle and away we go, no need to keep it 4k+ to be happy and run well.
Many here seem to think there is some Moto Guzzi mystical thing going on that makes them happier when you spin them 4K and up ... I think it is poor running (due to poor setup) below 4K rpms vs mystical stuff. :grin:
But ... I guess it is easier to just run them 4K and up vs sorting out fueling/ignition/timing/TPS/balance/jetting/etc. :grin:
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I guess it is easier to just run them 4K and up vs sorting out fueling/ignition/timing/TPS/balance/jetting/etc. :grin:
No.
Not good enough for the money you pay.
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Many of you folks are more technical than I am, but I think I can add something to consider, mechanical-wise.
My BIL worked as a mechanic at a dealership for a very well know farm implement manufacturer. He told me the factory would regularly send technical notices to the shop to remind their customers to keep RPMs of the diesel engines above 2000 when using them for any high load purpose, such as pulling a plow. The tendency was for the farmers to run in too high a gear and lugging the engines. The reason they gave was the rods and crank bearings are designed to run on a very thin film of oil. At too low of RPMs, there could be more metal to metal contact resulting in increased bearing wear. Higher RPMs allow for better oiling of the bearing surfaces.
Just something to consider when deciding what gear to cruise in.
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Again, I think it has a lot to do with fuel/ignition map (or carb jets) and tuning/setup. My Quota (v11 motor) is happy from 2000 rpms and up ... I can come out of a corner at 2500 rpm, roll on the throttle and away we go, no need to keep it 4k+ to be happy and run well.
Many here seem to think there is some Moto Guzzi mystical thing going on that makes them happier when you spin them 4K and up ... I think it is poor running (due to poor setup) below 4K rpms vs mystical stuff. :grin:
But ... I guess it is easier to just run them 4K and up vs sorting out fueling/ignition/timing/TPS/balance/jetting/etc. :grin:
I completely agree. I've spent a lot of time setting up the fuelling on the Daytona motor in my Magni, and it now pulls smoothly & immediately without issue from 2,000rpm (..on a whiff of throttle). It will also trundle along a level road perfectly happily at those same revs (..in 5th gear) without snatching and with no sign of being laboured. At 3,000 ~ 3,500rpm it will do the same, but with a more urgent response to the throttle. There is a slight flattening in its response at 4,000rpm, but by the time 4,500rpm is reached it's back in a sweet spot and pulling hard. Really, I'd have to be very unsympathetic with the twist-grip to actually 'lug' the motor. Set-up is indeed the key.
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Darren, that’s my understanding as well. Lots of people think having the engine turn more slowly is better for it, and creates less wear. No, you need to let it spin fast enough to be in the correct design envelope. Even if it will “run” at lower rpm doesn’t mean that’s better.
Look at it this way. For any given load, the engine has to make a certain amount of power. If you rev slower, then each individual combustion event must the more powerful to pull that load (compared to a faster rev with weaker, but more numerous, combustion events). That’s why you have to have the throttle open more at lower revs compared to higher revs, for the same load.
There is a point at low revs/high load where you are demanding so much power from so few combustion events that you are pounding away at the bearings, and sending high impulse shocks down the drivetrain. Lower rpm can also compromise the oiling. You are more likely to get detonation. Etc.
In contrast, letting the engine spin at the correct, higher, rpm avoids all this, and does not “wear out” the engine.
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Darren, that’s my understanding as well. Lots of people think having the engine turn more slowly is better for it, and creates less wear. No, you need to let it spin fast enough to be in the correct design envelope. Even if it will “run” at lower rpm doesn’t mean that’s better.
Look at it this way. For any given load, the engine has to make a certain amount of power. If you rev slower, then each individual combustion event must the more powerful to pull that load (compared to a faster rev with weaker, but more numerous, combustion events). That’s why you have to have the throttle open more at lower revs compared to higher revs, for the same load.
There is a point at low revs/high load where you are demanding so much power from so few combustion events that you are pounding away at the bearings, and sending high impulse shocks down the drivetrain. Lower rpm can also compromise the oiling. You are more likely to get detonation. Etc.
In contrast, letting the engine spin at the correct, higher, rpm avoids all this, and does not “wear out” the engine.
Swede - What your explaining makes total sense. The manual for the V85TT clearly says to avoid lugging the engine during break-in. When I feel the engine start to 'shudder' at lower RPM I know it's time to downshift. From everything I've read the low RPM impulses are orders of magnitude higher than higher frequency vibrations.
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The generalizations are making my head hurt.
A V11 motor is not the same as a V7 motor in many ways.
The load on ONE V7 motor with ME on it vs the same V7 with only my wife on it is pretty DIFFERENT.
Add in temperature, humidity, altitude etc. and you have a recipe for "lugging" at different rpm.
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This photo shows lugging taken to the extreme on an air cooled engine at low speeds. I rebuilt this 650 Triumph for a friend...He goes out for a ride with his girl friend. It's a cafe racer with funky rear set pegs . The shift linkage broke so he heads back in third gear lugging the crap out of the engine in city traffic. A classic case of pre ignition damage caused by excessive cylinder pressure .
(https://i.ibb.co/tp4SjgY/22204608012-92e525ee37-c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tp4SjgY)
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Ouch!