Author Topic: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?  (Read 1365 times)

Offline Huzo

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2021, 07:49:31 AM »
And wouldn't THAT be somethin'!  :shocked:  :grin:
'Course, the engine doesn't have enough power to overcome the aerodynamic resistance
at that speed, especially at 3,500 RPM.........

In any semantical event, 6th gear on the Cali is a gear for hi-speed, long-distance running, yes?!   :laugh:

                                                                                          -Stretch
Anything on a 1400 Cali will eat miles like baked beans... :thumb: :bike-037:

Online chuck peterson

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2021, 08:47:02 AM »
Drop two gears and call me in the morning..


To quote a fairly recent v7 review

“Shift at 7200 to get back into the power band”

My experience is with a 2007 Nevada, 16k, twin throttle bodies

I like to sit between 5-6000 rpm running down the road, 3rd or 4th gear. 5th someday in texas

3rd gear at 6k is…..65mph. TRY IT! The motor starts to sing like a Swiss watch.

At that point I’m sitting on the point of max power…just a touch of throttle it wants to leap

Just a touch less throttle, and it’s max engine braking

Yes, you can chug around like an agricultural tractor for vast distances across the prairie at 85mph

But, you might like looking for the rev limiter, too..

And I’m NOT talking about an increase in actual speed going down the road, or a slam bam wfo throttle

I’m suggesting a slow steady rise to a higher rpm and hold it there.shift at 5k for awhile…next time out a little higher.

Your also getting your ears use to it. You can’t break it, it has a rev limiter!

Of course ymmv and be safe




"I'd like to thank all my friends who have kept my Guzzi's going, but mostly...TOMB."
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Offline SmithSwede

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2021, 08:53:58 AM »
In my opinion, yes, you are lugging it.  You should rountinely be between 4 and 5K revs.  If you are slowing down into a town, and barely asking for any power, in a low gear, then 3,500 is ok.  I would not go lower than that. 

When you need sustained power, again do the engine a favor and drop down a gear or two to let it rev.  For example, if you have to give it 3/4 throttle ascending a steep grade, and your revs are down to 4,200 rpm, go ahead and drop down to fourth gear and get into the 5K range.   That is much easier on the engine.   

The higher revs won’t hurt it, and your engine and drivetrain will be happier. 

As a side note, I have a theory that some people don’t like smaller engines because for whatever reason they don’t like to work them hard.   But that’s where the fun is.   Go ahead and shift the gears as needed and use high revs and make the smaller engine work for a living.  (Of course, it’s still only 45 horsepower, but at least you are getting that)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 10:46:36 AM by SmithSwede »
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Offline Alfetta

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2021, 09:21:20 AM »

Dum..Dum......Dum.. Dum.....Dum..Dum... Guzzi etc
 Dum...Dum...Dum...D um...Dum...Dum....B MW boxer etc


I get it with the BMW, but calling my Guzzi a dum dum is FIGTING WORDS !!
NO, It's not pronounced "moder goosy"

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2021, 09:21:20 AM »

Offline Siamese

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2021, 09:40:42 AM »
Lugging is a hard thing to describe/quantify.  There's nothing wrong with running at low RPM provided you're not putting much of a load on the engine. 

I sometimes apply the least amount of throttle possible on a level stretch of road, starting from a stop, and shift at 3800 rpm for the first few gears.  My bike just eats it up.  Again...throttle BARELY open. 

Other than that, I shift north of 4500 rpm.  Let 'er run. 

Offline John A

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2021, 10:32:02 AM »
Remember: the rev limiter is a safety device and should be tested on a regular basis.... :evil:
John
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Offline usedtobefast

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2021, 10:46:31 AM »
Lugging is a hard thing to describe/quantify.  There's nothing wrong with running at low RPM provided you're not putting much of a load on the engine. 

I sometimes apply the least amount of throttle possible on a level stretch of road, starting from a stop, and shift at 3800 rpm for the first few gears.  My bike just eats it up.  Again...throttle BARELY open. 

Other than that, I shift north of 4500 rpm.  Let 'er run.

Where is that Like button   :grin:    Agree 100%.

I think another thing is often stock fueling isn't so great in the 1500-4000 rpm range so a person's unhappy engine isn't exactly lugging so much as going through a bad fueling zone.  So a better statement is "my bike runs kind of crappy until I hit 4K rpms, so I tend to run it 4K and higher".

When I was working With Beetle on a better map for my V7 iii, I told him that it felt a bit grumbly from 3K rpm to about 3750 rpms ... he sent me another map ... then it was super smooth thru that range.

So my back road rpms are like 2800 rpms - 5K rpms, no grumbly, no unhappy engine, no lugging. 

But sure, I guess if I had it in 6th gear at 2000 rpm, and quickly turn the throttle wide open, then I would be lugging it.   But rolling on the throttle at ~2500 or 2800 rpms it runs great. 
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Offline SmithSwede

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2021, 10:48:50 AM »
Agreed.  You aren’t lugging the engine when it is at idle, even though only 1,200 rpm.  There’s no load.   
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Offline SmithSwede

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2021, 10:54:32 AM »
As to Huzo’s point about Guzzi timing versus BMW flat twin.  A Guzzi 90 degree twin is a 270/450 degree engine in terms of when each cylinder fires. 

Imagine a steady drum beat, in musical time.  beat, beat, beat, etc. 

A Guzzi is this:

BANG. beat, beat BANG. beat, beat, beat, beat. 

Then repeat. 
Accentuate the positive;
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Offline Guzzi Gal

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2021, 11:13:38 AM »
Suffice to say GG, that a Guzzi puts it’s power to the ground like a cantering horse.
Dum..Dum......Dum.. Dum.....Dum..Dum... Guzzi etc
 Dum...Dum...Dum...D um...Dum...Dum....B MW boxer etc
If you notice the second example, you’ll see that there are even dots (time intervals) between the bangs.
Although both examples deliver the same number of pulses (basically) in the same time span.
If you are pushing your kids out of the door to go to school, they will slow down in between pushes. The best way is to push them every 2 seconds.
If you push them once then wait 5 seconds and then give them another one, they’ll have slowed down and will continue forward in a series of intermittent lunges...
Once you get them moving at a pace where they’re about to crash forward on their faces, the motion starts to smooth out.
Sound more familiar now...?
Way too familiar! :evil:

Sh!t, now I wanna go for a ride and it's gonna be effing HOT out there.  :bike-037:
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Online Ncdan

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2021, 11:52:43 AM »
As to Huzo’s point about Guzzi timing versus BMW flat twin.  A Guzzi 90 degree twin is a 270/450 degree engine in terms of when each cylinder fires. 

Imagine a steady drum beat, in musical time.  beat, beat, beat, etc. 

A Guzzi is this:

BANG. beat, beat BANG. beat, beat, beat, beat. 

Then repeat.
Smithy you have explained that where even a simple guy like me can grasp 👍

Offline Tom

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2021, 04:06:39 PM »
Shift at 5K rpm's and cruise at 4K & + rpm's.  You'll like it and your bike will too.  Rolling accelerations will be quicker.   :thumb:
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Offline drburt

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2021, 07:10:20 PM »
What about takeoff RPM?
I have a 2001 EV and it seems luggy at take off from a standstill.
I can rev it what seems fairly high on takeoff and it still lugs (haven't taken note of the actual RPM, I'm guessing 3k or so).
Idle set correctly at about 1100.
Even remapped.
I realize it's geared high, but I have no other 1100s to compare to.
Whatcha think?
Thanks,
Brent

Offline Tom

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2021, 11:33:00 PM »
Launch at 2K rpm's it first gear.
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Offline Kane

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2021, 12:12:18 AM »
For sure keep it in a higher rev range. I think I understand why some people like to ride around 3k/3.5k, maybe even a little lower, as there is that nice rumble thing and Guzzis have low end torque, so they may feel like the bike is delivering. As many have said, things start to come together around 4K, and from there the bike opens up, smooths out, pulls way better and is really smiling. Shifts are much better at higher revs as well. I like to cruise in 5k/5.5k and hammer it from there to around 6.5k, and shift accordingly. I really don’t let it get below 4K, unless I’m dealing with crazy traffic conditions that require full mental attention. Those are the only times that I may lug a little, using the low end torque to do the traffic accordion thing in 2nd or 3rd gear and not having to focus on shifting so much. Otherwise, use your gearbox, and keep it up, blip the throttle for downshifting at higher revs if that helps you.

Offline Muzz

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2021, 12:16:58 AM »
Shift at 5K rpm's and cruise at 4K & + rpm's.  You'll like it and your bike will too.  Rolling accelerations will be quicker.   :thumb:

That"s me Tom (although I must admit I love taking the baby B. into the 7+ range.  Loves me the sound of La Franconi playing Symphony in Second and the roar of the 2TB intakes).
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Offline Huzo

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2021, 05:12:32 AM »
I get it with the BMW, but calling my Guzzi a dum dum is FIGTING WORDS !!
Figting words ?

Online Rough Edge racing

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2021, 05:16:30 AM »
Lugging is when you open the throttle and the engine rpm does not increase....Excepti on would be at high speeds when the engine lacks the power to overcome air resistance...
  When riding through town on my 900 carbureted Monster it's more pleasant to drone along at 2200 rpm n lower gears than like boy racer at 3500 rpm. Like a Guzzi it will shake if too much throttle is used at low rpm, but I don't believe it's lugging because the load is very light...
 Bottom line, have any of you ever seen a Guzzi engine damaged by lugging? Classic example would be a piston holed by preignition or broken rings from detonation.
96 Ducati 900M , 79 Triumph 750,61 BSA A10, 650 Triumph land speed racer , dual 650 Triumph engine land speed racer.
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Offline Huzo

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2021, 05:27:08 AM »
Bottom line, have any of you ever seen a Guzzi engine damaged by lugging? Classic example would be a piston holed by preignition or broken rings from detonation.
If anyone here was enough of a muppet to destroy an engine in that way, you’d think he’d have enough good decision making power left over (since he hasn’t burned any up to date), to not tell every man and his dog.
So you’ll not be privy to the occurrence.
Also, in a solid majority of the cases, they don’t do enough work on them to find out.
They usually decide that the screen is 2.5 mm wrong in height, or the ‘pegs are a minuscule distance off perfection and sell the bastard with 2,300 miles added.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 06:02:15 AM by Huzo »

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2021, 08:53:04 AM »

They usually decide that the screen is 2.5 mm wrong in height, or the ‘pegs are a minuscule distance off perfection and sell the bastard with 2,300 miles added.

Ain’t that the truth!


When I was a teenager growing up in Atlanta, I would sometimes ride with the father of my best friend up in the North Georgia mountains.  He was an English professor, and an extremely bright man in certain dimensions.   But essentially an imbecile when it came to mechanical subjects, electricity, physics, etc. 

Anyway, one weekend his brother came to town.  Somehow these two decided that the best test of manliness and riding prowess would be to see who could ride the longest stretch of a certain mountain road while staying in top gear.   

His brother destroyed his Honda CX500 in the process.  He was riding a BMW R65, and it was a sick machine afterwards.   He sold it. 

This story was related to me with pride, as if something macho and commendable had occurred.  I was—and still am—stunned at the stupidity.   He knew a lot more than I did about Samuel Beckett and William Faulkner, but . . .

« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 08:54:52 AM by SmithSwede »
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Offline Kane

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #50 on: June 13, 2021, 12:18:30 AM »
This is an enlightening thread. It made me really pay attention while cruising today’s daily commute, much of it dodging and out-running the hyperactive lemmings in cages. The sweet spot kicks in around 4.5k, and it’s lovely from there on up. But while the sub-4K vibes fade out, another higher frequency vibe emerges around 6k, more buzzy than thumpy. While it’s easy to dig in between 6k-7k as the power is there and waiting, I wonder if the engine is happiest running between 4.5k-6k. This is on a V11 motor.

Offline usedtobefast

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #51 on: June 13, 2021, 01:28:01 PM »
I wonder if the engine is happiest running between 4.5k-6k. This is on a V11 motor.

Again, I think it has a lot to do with fuel/ignition map (or carb jets) and tuning/setup.  My Quota (v11 motor) is happy from 2000 rpms and up ... I can come out of a corner at 2500 rpm, roll on the throttle and away we go, no need to keep it 4k+ to be happy and run well. 

Many here seem to think there is some Moto Guzzi mystical thing going on that makes them happier when you spin them 4K and up ... I think it is poor running (due to poor setup) below 4K rpms vs mystical stuff.   :grin: 

But ... I guess it is easier to just run them 4K and up vs sorting out fueling/ignition/timing/TPS/balance/jetting/etc.   :grin:

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Offline Huzo

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #52 on: June 13, 2021, 01:42:42 PM »
I guess it is easier to just run them 4K and up vs sorting out fueling/ignition/timing/TPS/balance/jetting/etc.   :grin:
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Offline Darren Williams

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #53 on: June 13, 2021, 04:47:24 PM »
Many of you folks are more technical than I am, but I think I can add something to consider, mechanical-wise.

My BIL worked as a mechanic at a dealership for a very well know farm implement manufacturer. He told me the factory would regularly send technical notices to the shop to remind their customers to keep RPMs of the diesel engines above 2000 when using them for any high load purpose, such as pulling a plow. The tendency was for the farmers to run in too high a gear and lugging the engines. The reason they gave was the rods and crank bearings are designed to run on a very thin film of oil. At too low of RPMs, there could be more metal to metal contact resulting in increased bearing wear. Higher RPMs allow for better oiling of the bearing surfaces.

Just something to consider when deciding what gear to cruise in.
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Offline weevee

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #54 on: June 13, 2021, 04:49:31 PM »
Again, I think it has a lot to do with fuel/ignition map (or carb jets) and tuning/setup.  My Quota (v11 motor) is happy from 2000 rpms and up ... I can come out of a corner at 2500 rpm, roll on the throttle and away we go, no need to keep it 4k+ to be happy and run well. 

Many here seem to think there is some Moto Guzzi mystical thing going on that makes them happier when you spin them 4K and up ... I think it is poor running (due to poor setup) below 4K rpms vs mystical stuff.   :grin: 

But ... I guess it is easier to just run them 4K and up vs sorting out fueling/ignition/timing/TPS/balance/jetting/etc.   :grin:


I completely agree.  I've spent a lot of time setting up the fuelling on the Daytona motor in my Magni, and it now pulls smoothly & immediately without issue from 2,000rpm (..on a whiff of throttle).  It will also trundle along a level road perfectly happily at those same revs (..in 5th gear) without snatching and with no sign of being laboured.  At 3,000 ~ 3,500rpm it will do the same, but with a more urgent response to the throttle.  There is a slight flattening in its response at 4,000rpm, but by the time 4,500rpm is reached it's back in a sweet spot and pulling hard.  Really, I'd have to be very unsympathetic with the twist-grip to actually 'lug' the motor.  Set-up is indeed the key.   

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2021, 08:55:02 AM »
Darren, that’s my understanding as well.   Lots of people think having the engine turn more slowly is better for it, and creates less wear.  No, you need to let it spin fast enough to be in the correct design envelope.   Even if it will “run” at lower rpm doesn’t mean that’s better. 

Look at it this way.  For any given load, the engine has to make a certain amount of power.  If you rev slower, then each individual combustion event must the more powerful to pull that load (compared to a faster rev with weaker, but more numerous, combustion events).  That’s why you have to have the throttle open more at lower revs compared to higher revs, for the same load. 

There is a point at low revs/high load where you are demanding so much power from so few combustion events that you are pounding away at the bearings, and sending high impulse shocks down the drivetrain.   Lower rpm can also compromise the oiling.  You are more likely to get detonation.  Etc. 

In contrast, letting the engine spin at the correct, higher, rpm avoids all this, and does not “wear out” the engine. 
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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2021, 08:50:44 AM »
Darren, that’s my understanding as well.   Lots of people think having the engine turn more slowly is better for it, and creates less wear.  No, you need to let it spin fast enough to be in the correct design envelope.   Even if it will “run” at lower rpm doesn’t mean that’s better. 

Look at it this way.  For any given load, the engine has to make a certain amount of power.  If you rev slower, then each individual combustion event must the more powerful to pull that load (compared to a faster rev with weaker, but more numerous, combustion events).  That’s why you have to have the throttle open more at lower revs compared to higher revs, for the same load. 

There is a point at low revs/high load where you are demanding so much power from so few combustion events that you are pounding away at the bearings, and sending high impulse shocks down the drivetrain.   Lower rpm can also compromise the oiling.  You are more likely to get detonation.  Etc. 

In contrast, letting the engine spin at the correct, higher, rpm avoids all this, and does not “wear out” the engine.

Swede -  What your explaining makes total sense. The manual for the V85TT clearly says to avoid lugging the engine during break-in. When I feel the engine start to 'shudder' at lower RPM I know it's time to downshift. From everything I've read the low RPM impulses are orders of magnitude higher than higher frequency vibrations.
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Griso 1200SE
Breva 1100
EV Touring

Online Kev m

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2021, 09:29:46 AM »
The generalizations are making my head hurt.

A V11 motor is not the same as a V7 motor in many ways.

The load on ONE V7 motor with ME on it vs the same V7 with only my wife on it is pretty DIFFERENT.

Add in temperature, humidity, altitude etc. and you have a recipe for "lugging" at different rpm.

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Online Rough Edge racing

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Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2021, 11:06:49 AM »
This photo shows lugging taken to the extreme on an air cooled engine at low speeds. I rebuilt this 650 Triumph for a friend...He goes out for a ride with his girl friend. It's a cafe racer with funky rear set pegs . The shift linkage broke so he heads back in third gear lugging the crap out of the engine in city traffic. A classic case of pre ignition damage caused by excessive cylinder pressure .
   

96 Ducati 900M , 79 Triumph 750,61 BSA A10, 650 Triumph land speed racer , dual 650 Triumph engine land speed racer.
" I  don't know what the world may need
But a V8 engine is a good start for me
Think I'll drive to find a place, to be surly"

Offline Muzz

  • Guzzi Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 6743
  • On the backside of the planet.
  • Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Re: Have I been lugging my Guzzi?
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2021, 04:52:43 PM »
Ouch!
Muzz. Cristchurch, New Zealand
03 Breva

Life is just a bowl of Allbran
Ya wake up in the morning and it's there

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