2013 V7 Stone - stumbling, left exhaust darkening - FIXED!

[Spokane2303]

Just when life is really GOOD, along comes a mechanical issue and knocks you down to reality!

This morning I had a great 75 mi ride on my new 2013 Stone to meetup with my fellow Guzzi riders for lunch. After lunch I started up my Stone and it stumbles, speeds up and down and dies.  Odd I think and restart the bike. It again speeds up, stumbles and dies. Being 75 miles from home, I restart the bike and hold the RPM�s up to keep it running. Driving slowly through town it is stumbling and surging a little. Once out of town, it runs somewhat ok at higher speed; however, I continue to notice more vibration then normal. When I encounter my first stop sign, the bike stalls at lower rpm. I restart the bike and proceed to limp in the direction of home. 

Since I pass the regional Moto Guzzi shop on my way home, I drop on by to have them diagnose and repair. Or, that was my goal!  Turns out they currently don�t have mechanic and a new one starts next week. So they are booked solid for many weeks out.

While at the dealer, wasting my time,  I look at my exhaust and can see that the bike is running too lean by the color of the headers and the left side is obviously way too lean as the exhaust is discoloring past the catalytic converter.  (Now understand this might be raw fuel burning in catalyst)

I fire the bike back up, continue to hold my rpm�s up to prevent stalling, and limp the rest of the way home.

Once home I pull the plugs to confirm my �lean� theory.  Yep, they both look a little lean.

So, where should I start?

The plugs and caps are �new� NGK with only 125 miles on them. No sign of shorting through the cap.

Oxygen sensors, vacuum leak and/ or funky fuel injector are my best guess.

Also, when I got the bike a few weeks ago, I noticed  A minor sign (discoloration of left pipe past the catalyst) that the left exhaust pipe had been run lean in its past. Since it only had 1008 miles on it, I wasn�t too worried and replaced the caps and plugs when doing the full 600 miles service in case there had been any short occurring.

Fuel used is clear premium. Fuel used by prior owner most likely had ethanol but he did use sea foam for storage. Bike has very low miles and a lot of storage time on it.

Appreciate any and all advice and recommendations!

[pete roper]

Replace the plug caps. The originals are shite. LB05E or F I believe but don’t quote me on that.

Also make sure it isn’t over filled with oil and the airbox is clear but i’m Pointing the bone at the plug caps.

Pete

[Spokane2303]

Original plugs and caps were replaced 125 miles ago with: NGK CPR8EA-9 spark plugs, threaded end, and topped by NGK XD05F spark plug caps. Silicone dielectric grease used around rubber seals.

I did pull and double check these once home. No sign of any short on caps.

Looking at the air feed hose to the left side head, it had a little buildup around the rubber to aluminum fitting. The hose also seemed more forward then the right side. I loosened the hose clamp, moved the hose back a fraction and retightened the hose clamp. Unknown if this was anything or if it is not even a related issue?

Attached is a picture of the hot left exhaust:

[pete roper]

The discolouration of the pipe is because fuel has been burning in the catalytic converter on that side. The reason uncombusted fuel is getting there is because it isn’t being ignited in the combustion chamber and is just being pumped through into the exhaust.

This is most likely because of a lack of spark. You say that you swapped plugs and caps, that’s good, but if the HT lead was tugged about while this was being done it may of been loosened or dislodged at the coil end, check that as well as re-checking the cap and connections to it and wipe off the grease, it’s completely un-necessary! Throw a new plug in the offending side, it will now be well fouled.

Another, unlikely, possibility is that a valve on that side has insufficient clearance so check them.

I still say it’s a typical spark issue so look there.

Pete

[Spokane2303]

The plug on this side is a little light to white. It doesn’t show any fouling that I’d expect if raw fuel was getting through.  Right side plug is same color.

1.  Tomorrow, once the bike has set overnight, I’ll pull the valve cover and doublecheck the valve
     clearances.

2.  I’ll lift the tank and check the wire-to-coil connections

3.  I didn’t trim the plug wires when I put on the new caps.  Was this something I should have done?

4. It still seems odd that the bike ran so strong for an hour and a half; and, then when to Sh-t once
    started after setting for 1 1/2 hrs over lunch???

5. I’ve ordered extra plugs and caps.  I’ll replace when received to see if this helps.

Outside temperatures were 59 to 65 f.  Not a hot day at all!

Any and all suggestions are welcomed.  Each gives me something to consider and try.

Thanks!

[Kev m]

The plug is light white because when it runs it runs relatively lean and hot.

It runs rough because of intermittent grounding.

It's not fouled because it usually runs and ignites.

The header pipe discoloration usually occurs from hot/lean temps, but that's not what causes the muffler/cat-con to get hot and discolor, it's the opposite there, rich/unburned fuel mixtures igniting IN THE Catalyst is what does that.

Basically listen to Pete.

[Spokane2303]

Ok, I can see that logic.  Lean burning bike that doesn’t show classic plug fouling due to it being an intermittent short.

So, where is the short?

I just finished lifting the tank and checking the plug wire to coil connections.  Both tigh and secure.

I then checked the plug wires for any wear or short marks. All clean.

I checked the bolts holding the tank discs in place while the tank was up.  Really, really loose!
So I removed the bolts, cleaned them and put back on with blue Locktite.

I then put on my reading glasses and went over the new NGK XD05F Cap in detail.  No cracks, no shorts..

So, now what?

Connection of cap to plug wire? (I didn’t trim the wire prior to screwing on new cap; however, it felt like a tight fit)

Bad cap, bad plug?  I’ll replace both as they are cheap and if it doesn’t improve I now just have an extra, slightly used set,  set in the parts box.

I read one report on this forum about an early V7 Stone suffering a similar issue that occurred after riding for a period of time, shutting the bike down and then restarting a little later. They reported this was a ECU programming issue?   

[Vagrant]

Fyi. Sea foam is a cleaner with alcohol not for storage use. When u put on new caps trim 1/8" off.

[Kev m]

All good questions.

Yes obviously a problem could occur in the ECU since the primary ignition circuit is controlled from there.

Opens or shorts can also occur on the primary circuit or the coil end of the secondary.

You won't always see burn marks or the like from the short so I wouldn't trust my eyes.

You can use a DVOM to check harness continuity between various points on the circuit.

The problem with intermittent faults is that the problem must be present for it to show up during testing.

If it was running right when you shut it down, you probably won't find it when you go looking unless you physically recreate it when disconnecting the harness.

Similarly opens or shorts in high voltage circuits may occur under heat and load that don't show up without static resistance checks.

One method of checking dynamically is called the wiggle test. Run the motor at idle or part throttle while systematically wiggling the harness and connectors at each suspect point. If it stumbles consistently at one connector or length of harness then you'll have found the fault.

Use caution with the wiggle test and secondary ignition circuit. Though it's worked for me in the past it can be quite a jolt. Also watch hot engine parts. And to make matters worse coil access means some sort of support for the fuel tank.

Let us know if you find anything.

[Spokane2303]

Spent some time going over the bike this morning.

Checked:

1. Valve Clearence - OK, perfectly at spec.
2. Snipped 1/8� off each spark plug wire and reinstalled the new NGK XD05F caps and CPR8EA-9 plugs
3. Checked the air filter and box (light oil mist in bottom of air box, filter clean)
4. Doublechecked plug wire attachment to coils - OK
5. Pulled 30 amp fuse to let the bike reset.

Crossed my fingers and started it up.

Starts right up, immediately revs to 5-6,000 rpm and shuts down!

Tried it again with same results!

Disconnected lambda sensors and tried again.

Same results. Starts, high rev and shutdown cycle.

So, any new ideas where I should be looking?

I’d take to the dealer; but, they currently don’t have a mechanic and it will be weeks until I’ll be able to have it checked out once they hire one. 

[Kev m]

Do you have cables to connect GizziDiag?

Might be worth starting there.

[beetle]

Sounds like a stuck stepper or oil in the MAP sensor venturi. Are you absolutely sure there's no oil in the throttle body?

[Spokane2303]

Didn�t see any oil in the throttle body; but, that doesn�t mean it isn�t there.  The air box had a coating of oil mist in it, so I should assume the throttle body got some too.

Two questions:

1.  How do I clean this?  Spray with carb cleaner?

2. Why is only the left pipe showing heat damage at the silencer where the catalyst is?

I�ve read on the European Guzzi forum and on this forum that early 2013�s had bad maps.

Will your map correct that issue?

To Kev m�s question, yes I�ve already ordered a set of leads from Lonelec (UK) to hook up Guzzidiag.

Once I have this connected; and, run an initial scan, I�m hoping a beetle Map might be just what I need?

[Kev m]

Fwiw I'm running the later factory map on my 13. Other than an occasional cold start stumble mine's been fine.

The discoloration on one side is what made me suspect an intermittent problem with the ignition on that side and not a throttle body or map problem.

But there are other possibilities, like a mechanical problem with the injector on that side.

But I would certainly listen to Better and check those items too.

[gerryp]

Spent some time going over the bike this morning.

Checked:

1. Valve Clearence - OK, perfectly at spec.
2. Snipped 1/8� off each spark plug wire and reinstalled the new NGK XD05F caps and CPR8EA-9 plugs
3. Checked the air filter and box (light oil mist in bottom of air box, filter clean)
4. Doublechecked plug wire attachment to coils - OK
5. Pulled 30 amp fuse to let the bike reset.

Crossed my fingers and started it up.

Starts right up, immediately revs to 5-6,000 rpm and shuts down!

Tried it again with same results!

Disconnected lambda sensors and tried again.

Same results. Starts, high rev and shutdown cycle.

So, any new ideas where I should be looking?

I�d take to the dealer; but, they currently don�t have a mechanic and it will be weeks until I�ll be able to have it checked out once they hire one.

What you just described (Starts right up, immediately revs to 5-6,000 rpm and shuts down!) sounds exactly like what happened to me on my trip to Vermont last year.

I'm not sure exactly sure how to explain it but fuel map got wiped due to an electrical issue (arching) caused by failure on the right side stock plug/cap.  Any burn marks on either plug or wires (showed on mine).  Fortunately for me my dealer was able to just reload the latest factory map, install new plug wires and plugs (not stock) after he arranged to get the bike back to his shop.

Perhaps KOF can explain it better as he was there along with our Dealer.

gerry

[beetle]

Two questions:

1.  How do I clean this?  Spray with carb cleaner?

No, use throttle body cleaner or MAF sensor cleaner, specifically for fuel injection throttle bodies.

2. Why is only the left pipe showing heat damage at the silencer where the catalyst is?

It's unlikely the map is causing that. Blueing on both pipes is not uncommon, but one only is atypical.

I�ve read on the European Guzzi forum and on this forum that early 2013�s had bad maps.

Will your map correct that issue?

To Kev m�s question, yes I�ve already ordered a set of leads from Lonelec (UK) to hook up Guzzidiag.

Once I have this connected; and, run an initial scan, I�m hoping a beetle Map might be just what I need?

A new map might improve your ride, but if you have a mechanical or electrical issue, you should get that sorted first.

[fossil]

A suggestion: between the throttle body and the inlet stubs at the cylinders is an Y-formed rubber boot. Check it for tightness. On my 2013 Stone the hose clamps were very loose. This might cause bleed air.

[Kev m]

BTW, Jay just downloaded the 2013-2014 updated OEM map from his 2014 and sent it to Cam and I, so let us know if you want a copy. I believe it's the OEM map #352BV738.

[Spokane2303]

Status update:

I did the following trouble shooting related to my �starting, running, revving, quitting, exhaust/silencer discoloration� posting on wildguzzi:

1. I trimmed the spark plug wires and reconnected with new NGK caps.
2. I checked the valve clearance - OK
3. �Beetle� suggested that my map sensor might be oil contaminated from excess breather oil.  I   
    cleaned air box, checked air filter (clean & dry!), cleaned throttle body / MAP area with CRC MAS
    cleaner 2x over two days.
4. I noticed the left throttle body clamp, on the manifold hose, seemed a little loose. I tightened this
    and all the other throttle body tube hose clamps.
5. I found a significant vacuum leak at the evap recovery system�s carbon canister hose connection,
    from the canister to the throttle body manifold hose. The vacuum hose had a very loose connection
    to the carbon canister despite a good Oetiker clamp being in place.  I could pull the hose right off
    and slid it right back on with an extremely loose fit, no friction at all.  This has been corrected.
6. I lifted the fuel tank to check on the plug wire coil connections. Both were tight and secure. I did add
     extra insulation around the left coil plug wire connection/boot as an extra precaution.

I also extracted 50 cc�s of oil from the engine to reduce future oil contamination into the air box.  Wow, the 2 liter specification by MG is way off!  At 1.7 ml I was still above the Max oil line when hot.  Now I�m at 1.650 ml and just below the max line when hot. I�ll keep an eye on this and the air filter box for oil spray/mist for awhile.  Since I had one in my supplies, I also decided to replace the air filter.

I received computer cables to allow me to connect to Guzzidiag, from Lonelec, 6 days after ordering. Great service and the cables linked Guzzidiag, on my old Windows 7 laptop, to my 2013 Stone on the first try.  Unbelievable, it worked!

I downloaded a copy of my current MAP. 
I ran Guzzidiag and checked for faults. 
I then uploaded the latest Moto Guzzi MAP for the 2013/2014 V7 Stone - 352BV738.

I then cleaned up the the heat damage marks off the left silencer/exhaust with Blue Job.

I added Techron to the fuel tank, 1 oz per gallon,  to clean the injectors.

I crossed my fingers and the bike started right up on the first try and idled normally. Once warmed up for 3-4 minutes, I took my bike for a 50 mile ride and was totally pleased!  The stumbling/surging issues noted earlier are gone. The bike now starts and idles normally.  The left exhaust/silencer showed no sign of new heat damage.

On Memorial Day, I took the bike for a second 50 mile ride.  Stopped twice for 15-30 minutes.  The bike started and idled normally after each break.  No stumbling, no high revs-quitting, no new heat damage to the left exhaust..

So I�m hopeful that all this effort corrected my initial problems. 

Now I�m debating a Beetle map upgrade to see if it delivers an even better riding experience?

Thanks to all for your comments and support!







Updated the MAP from  the

[Kev m]

I've contemplated using a beetle map

I've got complete confidence in his work.

But since mine isn't broke, I'm not about to fix it.

[oldbike54]

 Most excellent , thanks 

 Dusty

[Dave Swanson]

Beetle's map is the best mod I have made on my V7.  Now that you have the cables and know how I highly recommend it.

[malik]

Oh the joy of a fine machine running well. Congratulations.

[mr_pacman]

Bumping this thread instead of starting a new one.

I downloaded the factory map on my 2014 V7 Racer (North American spec) and this is the information in the text file:

Drawing: CM228301   
Hardware: 38M3G3HW304
Omologation: E14   
Software: 352BV738   
Tester: 130951513
Date: 2016.03.23

Does anyone know if this is the most recent factory map from Moto Guzzi for a 2014 V7?  I was actually quite surprised to see it had a 2016 date on it, as believe this bike hasn't been to the dealer since it was purchased in 2014 (according to the seller, but I may have misheard him).

If anyone has a new map than this, would you mind sending me the file?  I went to the dealer yesterday and they were not interested in helping me out unless I booked the bike in for a full service.

Thanks
James

[guzzisteve]

Whoever owned the bike in 16 must have taken it to the dealer for service. There was a service bulletin on the map, bike comes in you put map in it. That is the latest map they had for single TB's. It corrected the waiting for 2 minutes to ride when cold and other imperfections.
Original map is 3523V702 for 12-14 models.