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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Huzo on March 18, 2023, 01:32:51 AM

Title: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 18, 2023, 01:32:51 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/C1Skk2s/0-F45599-D-3-F98-48-ED-8-A08-E883517-B4666.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C1Skk2s)
I’m happy to hear anyone’s input regarding the data readout on the stepper reading.
I have very little knowlege on this.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: SIR REAL ED on March 18, 2023, 08:23:13 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/C1Skk2s/0-F45599-D-3-F98-48-ED-8-A08-E883517-B4666.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C1Skk2s)
I’m happy to hear anyone’s input regarding the data readout on the stepper reading.
I have very little knowlege on this.

sorry Huzo, I misread the title.

"Stripper Tutorial" piqued my interest......   :wink:
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 18, 2023, 12:20:46 PM
sorry Huzo, I misread the title.

"Stripper Tutorial" piqued my interest......   :wink:
Perfectly understandable SRE
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: moto-uno on March 18, 2023, 05:30:48 PM
  What's a "Tipp over inactive" ?   :evil: Peter
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 18, 2023, 06:05:48 PM
  What's a "Tipp over inactive" ?   :evil: Peter
The “tip over” switch is a pendulum type arrangement in a small container, that electrically shuts the engine down if it falls over.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Bulldog9 on March 19, 2023, 05:28:54 AM
Huzo,

Most of the data readouts are a mystery to me, so I can't offer solid input on what 100 means. I don't think I've ever scrolled through all the options to display the stepper motor on the measurements screen.

I do use the stepper option in the actors menu to cycle and test the stepper motor's function.

I bet Beetle/Mark knows. He's pretty responsive to questions so I'd reach out through his website over the Griso ghetto.

Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 19, 2023, 02:54:43 PM
Huzo,

Most of the data readouts are a mystery to me, so I can't offer solid input on what 100 means. I don't think I've ever scrolled through all the options to display the stepper motor on the measurements screen.
I do use the stepper option in the actors menu to cycle and test the stepper motor's function.
I would love to be able to view the stepper position in real time as it is cycling with changing engine rpm.
The diagram page shows graphical information of the TPS performance as throttle is applied and this is a good diagnostic aid.
I think that the numbers are increments that represent the position from fully off to fully open, with the parked, break and maximums registered.
These are early days for me in this area.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Bigtime on March 19, 2023, 03:44:53 PM
  Huzo, I have a question about the stepper function. Last week when I was doing the throttle body cleaning on my Norge, I also shot a little cleaner into the stepper and operated the key a few times. What I observed was the stepper did nothing until I switched the key off. Then it sounded like it was going through some process. Is this normal? The Norge starts good and idles well but doesn't high idle when first started like my Stelvio did.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 19, 2023, 04:22:36 PM
  Huzo, I have a question about the stepper function. Last week when I was doing the throttle body cleaning on my Norge, I also shot a little cleaner into the stepper and operated the key a few times. What I observed was the stepper did nothing until I switched the key off. Then it sounded like it was going through some process. Is this normal? The Norge starts good and idles well but doesn't high idle when first started like my Stelvio did.
I have noticed this too.
But there is a small cycling of the stepper when powered up, much less noticeable than the shutdown process.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Bigtime on March 19, 2023, 04:39:59 PM
 👍. I think the old saying applies here: If it ain't broke don't fix it.😁
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 19, 2023, 04:42:19 PM
👍. I think the old saying applies here: If it ain't broke don't fix it.😁
Touche’
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 20, 2023, 11:30:40 PM
Is it possible to display the stepper function on the measurements screen in real time as it’s working…(or not working) ?
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: tris on March 21, 2023, 03:46:54 AM
I think that stepper operation is a bit of a black art as why it does what it does and when!

However,
1) If you go to "actors" in GD you find a switch about the stepper (can't remember the wording) Push it with the engine idling and the revs should change
2) Disconnect everything from the stepper including unbolting for access BAR the electrical connection. Look down the open connections while switching the bike on/off and you should see the valve move
3) After that you're probably into making a circuit up to stroke it on the bench. Its not too hard. Even a Mech E like me managed to do it  :wink:
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 21, 2023, 07:03:13 AM
I think that stepper operation is a bit of a black art as why it does what it does and when!

However,
1) If you go to "actors" in GD you find a switch about the stepper (can't remember the wording) Push it with the engine idling and the revs should change
2) Disconnect everything from the stepper including unbolting for access BAR the electrical connection. Look down the open connections while switching the bike on/off and you should see the valve move
3) After that you're probably into making a circuit up to stroke it on the bench. Its not too hard. Even a Mech E like me managed to do it  :wink:
Idle stepper is the last on the list at the bottom of the Actor’s menu. Nothing much seems to happen when you buggerise around with it on GD.
The bike idles nicely at 1150-1200 when at temperature, but the cold idle seems problematic at times.
I am going to take it out a few times to replicate results and fully check that the hot performance is good. I can no longer blame the TPS, it works just fine once it begins to warm. I went to the diagram page and smoothly opening and closing the throttle gave this.
(https://i.ibb.co/P64SJB3/92-C9-E51-A-A694-4-CCC-9-A07-2091-CE2394-AE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/P64SJB3)

Manipulating the CO trim seems to have minimal effect.
What do some of you 2VPC Norge owners have as a CO figure ?
Mine is currently at +12. It always used to be at +4.
I might take it down to 0 and see what happens.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: tris on March 21, 2023, 08:25:42 AM
Have you checked the TB spindle butterflies for slop?
On one of the other forums, there was a discussion about weird idle problems caused by  the stepper trying to react to the additional air that was leaking in
Given the mileage that your bike has done it might be worth checking
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 21, 2023, 10:49:47 AM
Have you checked the TB spindle butterflies for slop?
On one of the other forums, there was a discussion about weird idle problems caused by  the stepper trying to react to the additional air that was leaking in
Given the mileage that your bike has done it might be worth checking
That is a fair point and yes there is some wear, but not extreme and here’s the thing.
This bike started and idled perfectly well when I collected it and 10 minutes later was idling erratically.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Wayne Orwig on March 21, 2023, 01:13:44 PM
Have you cleaned the stepper passages?
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: tris on March 21, 2023, 01:36:03 PM
That is a fair point and yes there is some wear, but not extreme and here’s the thing.
This bike started and idled perfectly well when I collected it and 10 minutes later was idling erratically.
Is it repeatable, as if so that would suggest that it changes when hot?
Did you try nipping off the air supply to the Stepper, as that would eliminate that as a cause and allow you to hunt for alternatives

Could be many things
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 21, 2023, 01:42:59 PM
Have you cleaned the stepper passages?
Yes Wayne.
Took it off, sprayed carb cleaner in while cycling it.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 21, 2023, 01:50:49 PM
Is it repeatable, as if so that would suggest that it changes when hot?
Did you try nipping off the air supply to the Stepper, as that would eliminate that as a cause and allow you to hunt for alternatives

Could be many things
I could start the bike cold and squeeze the air off.
Alternatively, I could remove the top of the airbox and plug the hole in there, but all that would do is mess the idle up, because it needs the stepper to function.
I have another known good one from Roper that I will fit, after I have repeated the procedure of riding it.
If I can reliably say it performs well when hot, then I can attack the cold idle in isolation.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: tris on March 21, 2023, 02:00:43 PM
I had a valve to isolate the air to the stepper from the air box.
Idled bang on 1k with it closed.
 I fitted it initially to help unfubar the sacred screw the PO had messed with before I bought the bike
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 21, 2023, 02:08:37 PM
I had a valve to isolate the air to the stepper from the air box.
Idled bang on 1k with it closed.
 I fitted it initially to help unfubar the sacred screw the PO had messed with before I bought the bike
As an experiment, I could plumb a temporary line into the pipes that distribute the air to the TB’s AFTER the stepper needle and see if introduction of air into there manipulates the idle.
If it did, that would point squarely at the stepper, but I still would not know if it was a faulty unit or failure in the electrical commands.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 21, 2023, 02:12:23 PM
I had a valve to isolate the air to the stepper from the air box.
Idled bang on 1k with it closed.
 I fitted it initially to help unfubar the sacred screw the PO had messed with before I bought the bike
What is your bike Tris, a Norge ?
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 21, 2023, 08:17:29 PM
What CO numbers are you 2VPC blokes on Norges running.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Bigtime on March 21, 2023, 08:41:17 PM
 Beatle map. +4 fuel trim. GPR exhaust with db killer in. I'm at about 1000ft. above sea level here in Kentucky and very happy with the fueling on my Norge. JohnB
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 21, 2023, 10:30:13 PM
Beatle map. +4 fuel trim. GPR exhaust with db killer in. I'm at about 1000ft. above sea level here in Kentucky and very happy with the fueling on my Norge. JohnB
Yeah +4 was always my setting, at the moment I’m above that to see what type of setting I need.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: tris on March 22, 2023, 01:42:45 AM
What is your bike Tris, a Norge ?
It was an 1100 Breva
Now a V9 so none of this entertainment with stepper,  just throw the whole thing Inc ECU away and fit a new one
Isn't progress great
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 22, 2023, 05:39:14 AM
just throw the whole thing Inc ECU away and fit a new one
Hmmmm……..
I might hold off on that one.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: pauldaytona on March 25, 2023, 05:34:43 PM
Poor idle when cold does not need to do anything with the stepper. A number of the 5am maps are to lean when the engine is cold. when it's to lean, shutting of the stepper won't do anything. Since it's closed anyway in that situation. Adding some fuel in the colder temps in the warm up map helps.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Huzo on March 25, 2023, 07:03:16 PM
Poor idle when cold does not need to do anything with the stepper. A number of the 5am maps are to lean when the engine is cold. when it's to lean, shutting of the stepper won't do anything. Since it's closed anyway in that situation. Adding some fuel in the colder temps in the warm up map helps.
A couple of things on that Paul.
Mine has had a Beetle map for 108,000 km and it has been perfect.

“Since it’s closed anyway in that situation…” ?
That is IF it is closed as it should in that situation. The bike cranks a little bit longer than usual when stone cold then idles great for 30 seconds, followed by a bit of hesitation….Then when warm it’s perfect.

Also, this bike was perfect when I collected it from the depot post Europe. When I got home it was idling erratically, it didn’t alter it’s map in 100 km and 60 minutes.
Right now I have a good plastic stepper from Pete Roper and I will do several test rides to get some continuity of performance before throwing it in.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: Bulldog9 on March 25, 2023, 07:37:11 PM
It was an 1100 Breva
Now a V9 so none of this entertainment with stepper,  just throw the whole thing Inc ECU away and fit a new one
Isn't progress great

Which V9? The early ones had the same TB and ECU as the v7iii's (3muig or something like that) That has an integral stepper built into the TB. No idea on the newer V7/9 Euro5 compliant 850s, but thought they had the same ECU and TB. If so it has a stepper. The V85 with throttle by wire does not.
Title: Re: Stepper tutorial
Post by: tris on March 26, 2023, 02:11:41 AM
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough
The miu3g does have a stepper for the same idle control action, but it's built-in and not a separate replaceable item

Here's a document explaining for V7, but principle is the same for the V9

https://manuals.wotmeworry.org.uk/useful%20info/magneti_marelli_miu_g3_information_14854.pdf

It's also got a sealed "sacred screw " if you are inclined to break your motorcycle  :evil: