Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: epb on October 26, 2016, 05:54:45 PM
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"It's a free ride when you've already paid
"it's the good advice that you just didn't take..." from "Ironic" by Alanis Morrissette
Getting my bike a week ago, even before, I've seen lots of advice about getting the chrome cylinders replaced, coated, fixed - something. A frequent warning is that it's a matter of when, not if. What strikes me as odd is the absence of fixed bikes on market. If everyone knows to do this, shouldn't at least some bikes on the market have been fixed? Not a single ad I saw mentioned it before I bought mine. I've Googled, I've run through Searchtempest, I've checked eBay and there doesn't seem to be a bike out there that's had this done. It's seems unlikely that no one's fixed a bike then sold it somewhere down the line- motorcyclists tend to be somewhat fickle.
So I'm asking - how many people actually worry about this to the point of taking action and spending money? It's starting to look like the Porsche IMS problem- far more people worry about it than suffer from it. Use the poll above, post your thoughts if you'd like. I'll say right now, I'm leaning against doing anything about mine - it seems most people are motoring along just fine.
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I have bought several Guzzi's w/ chrome cylinder still intact. I had one owner tell me he wanted to get the bike started before (was his dad's bike that sat dormant for 17 years) I came to look at it. I said no problem if you get it running my offer will 1/2 of what it is if you don't get it running.
This year alone I have put 3 Guzzi's on the market that had the chrome cylinder replaced.
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When I bought my oldies, the only option was cast iron sleeve or replating. I ran my Eldo until the chrome wore away near the top of the cylinder, then went with nikosil (SP) as it was now available and the best option. My Ambo had the flaking chrome on one side when I bought it, it was stored near the ocean so the chrome took a beating. Found a cast iron lined cylinder and replaced the one that was bad. Ran it like that for years. Then went to the nikosil as well.
Tom
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My T-3 original cylinders started smoking a bit in the upper 50K range and was quite noticeable by 70K. Rebuilt the engine with low 70s miles. Chrome was peeling but was lucky with no bottom end damage. Replaced with nickisal or however it is spelled.
GliderJohn
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My T-3 looked rough when I found it , Needed lots of attention , but it did not need cylinders renewed . It came with Gilardoni cylinders . Was most likely done before previous owner who claimed to have had it for eight years .
So yes , some were done and later moved on .
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I bought my '71 Ambo without ever hearing it run. I knew it had the original chrome cylinders. It was never started until it had the Gilardoni cylinders installed. Many sellers are not even aware of what could happen, bragging about all the work done to "restore " their bike without dealing with the jugs.
Pay now, or pay big later.
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:Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
And the beat goes on.........
Replaced mine without a lot of thought.
Mark
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I believe the chrome is only a problem if the bike has been sitting for a long time in the damp.
I know of several Eldorados running Chrome but they never sat for years,
The Nikasils were not available when I started restoring mine so I figured out how to install a filter between the pump and bearings but then they became available again so I went that route with no filter.
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I have a brand new pair of Gilardoni nikasil cylinders on the shelf waiting to be installed on my newly acquired Eldo as soon as I get the exhaust nuts freed from the heads so I can get them freshened up.
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I've replaced the cylinders on around 18 Guzzis now, every one had visible deterioration of the chrome bore. The worst had a large crescent shaped area of chrome missing, but even the "best" had what I call a "starry night" - light colored "stars" (the aluminum cylinder casting) showing through the darker colored chrome.
To paraphrase "Dirty Harry": "do you feel lucky?" Running chrome bores is a bit like playing "Russian Roulette" with your engine.
Have you actually checked to see what cylinders you have? Easy to find out by simply inserting a "pencil magnet" in through the sparkplug hole and touching it to the cylinder wall. No magnetic attraction: chrome, very slight: Nikasil, strong: iron liners.
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Ask anybody in the trade who has worked on Guzzis for years?
Charlie and I between us probably have close to seventy years, there are other tradesmen here as well as a lot of talented amateurs. Not ONE of them will say, "No Worries.Yer golden! Run 'em!".
Your choice of course but it would be a shame to trash a lovely old T3.
As to why people who are selling them have never done it? Simple, the people who have don't sell 'em! They are just too lovely!
Pete
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I bought a`71 civiiian Ambo. with only 13K miles on it from the same guy I bought my 1st Guzzi, a `81 CX100 that only had 6K miles on it. The only reason he was selling the Ambo. was because he was leaving the state. We rode it for 25 years and it never used any oil. If the bike is ridden regularly the cylinders will be OK. :azn:
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"It's a free ride when you've already paid
"it's the good advice that you just didn't take..." from "Ironic" by Alanis Morrissette
As a sometimes Canadian, I am ashamed to admit that Alanis gave a whole bunch of examples in that song of things that are actually not ironic. Coincidental, spoken of sardonically, even paradoxical - but very little irony.
And also as a sometimes Canadian, I am ashamed to admit to Celine Dion. At all. In any manner. :evil:
Finally, replace the chrome. Start with the cylinders, then all that unnecessary stuff all over the bike. Chrome is evil.
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At least Celine hasn't thrown eggs at het neighbors :shocked:
Dusty
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I did mine (2 V700's & 1 V750 Ambo) in cast iron sleeves. Customers got LA sleeves also till the plated stuff got popular. I have another V700 to do yet.
You could keep an eye on it, but it won't end well. They mostly go if the motor sits. If it's been consistently ridden then keep going. It is your bike so do as you wish.
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At least Celine hasn't thrown eggs at het neighbors :shocked:
Dusty
She lives here in Las Vegas, and her twins are still a bit young. I expect them to start being a problem in the next few years.
Stay off my lawn, you brats!
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She lives here in Las Vegas, and her twins are still a bit young. I expect them to start being a problem in the next few years.
Stay off my lawn, you brats!
We are counting on you to keep watch :grin:
Wow , JLP released 21 years ago :thumb:
Dusty
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I bought a`71 civiiian Ambo. with only 13K miles on it from the same guy I bought my 1st Guzzi, a `81 CX100 that only had 6K miles on it. The only reason he was selling the Ambo. was because he was leaving the state. We rode it for 25 years and it never used any oil. If the bike is ridden regularly the cylinders will be OK. :azn:
Define "ridden regularly". Even if that is 20 miles a day, for let's say 52 days a year (Sunday only - to church and back :wink: ) it works out to 1040 miles a year. Times that by 40 years. How regularly has one been ridden if it only has 15k miles on it? Or 20k miles? 30k miles? It's done one heck of a lot of sitting unused...
My own '69 Ambo had 36k miles on it when I bought it in '97. The previous owner had put on a mere 3k miles in the 13 years he owned it. That means the original owner put 33K miles on it over 15 years, an average of 2200 miles a year.
It was "okay" for me too - until it wasn't. It ran well, didn't smoke, no funny noises, but wasn't especially powerful. On a trip down to Guzzis in the Blue Ridge following Joe Kenny and Pat Galbraith it became very apparent that it was just plain tired. It would barely maintain 45 mph on some of the hills on the Blue Ridge Parkway and would get so hot you could smell it.
When I got home, I pulled the heads and cylinders and discovered that a 3/4" crescent of chrome was missing from both cylinders and the top piston rings had broken into 3 pieces. This was at 54k miles. Where did the chrome go? I pulled a rod cap and checked the bearing shells and journal - no embedded flakes, no scoring. I had been changing the oil every 1k miles, so I'm guessing that helped. I reassembled it with new Gilardoni cylinders and rebuilt heads. Still running strong at 109k miles - no abnormal noises. Definitely dodged a bullet, I wouldn't do that again.
epb: although you don't mention the year or model, I see by your posts on ADV Rider that you bought a '75 850-T. That may or may not have an oil filter, worth it to find out. A filter will help keep the engine damage from chrome flakes to a minimum, but that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the problem altogether.
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My eldo has cast bores but my V7 sport had chrome and I rode it for a long time before the curiosity got the better of me and I removed a cylinder head just in time to see the aluminium just starting to show. A new set of gilardonis mains and big ends later and I have a nice sport that will be a keeper.. I caught it just in time , as they say its not will they its when??. Here in Australia a set of jugs and bearings and gaskets and a couple of other minor things a little over $1200 ..Cheap insurance.. Bill
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I put chrome back into my Ambassador 30 years and 20,000 miles ago after one the cast iron cylinders was destroyed by a broken wrist pin cir clip. They had 70,000 on them.
She's still running strong!
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I replaced them. The original owner told me that he had checked the cylinders and they were OK but during a routine head re-torque & valve clearance PM, I noticed shiny particles in the rocker area....I guess he didn't know what he was looking at or talking about. The original cylinders were flaking at 25K but no damage was evident in the top or bottom ends of the engine. The sludge trap was half full of debris, I'm glad I spent the extra time to check it. I had the heads reconditioned and the crank polished & chamfered per Guzziology.
Should I buy another chrome bore Guzzi, I would count on doing an engine teardown to replace the cylinders & service the crank....hopefully factoring that scope of work into the purchase price. On the other hand, I've heard of folks replacing the 850 chrome bore engine with a used fully serviceable 1000cc engine for a lot less expense and to hell with originality.
Good luck!
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Let me add my 2 cents..They DO NOT have to sit for years, be stored in humidity etc to flake...They were defective from the git- go, I believe..I bought a NEW Eldorado in 1973. I maintained it well and drove it year round daily to work and long trips on the weekends, LOVED it. Then around 22,000 miles, past any warranty, the chrome flaked on both cylinders. Pre- internet days. No available replacement parts inventories, few knowledgable dealers and I waited for 6 months for replacement CHROME cylinders, pistons and pins/rings from Guzzi..I was too dumb to consider "where did the flakes go?" and soon the engine was sounding like an air hammer rattling. Drove it that way to Key west and back to D.C. on a month long camping trip then Traded it in on a NEW 1975 Goldwing. Thought I was DONE forever with Guzzi. Lesson learned? Get rid of the chrome BEFORE it flakes.
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I replaced them. The original owner told me that he had checked the cylinders and they were OK but during a routine head re-torque & valve clearance PM, I noticed shiny particles in the rocker area....I guess he didn't know what he was looking at or talking about. The original cylinders were flaking at 25K but no damage was evident in the top or bottom ends of the engine. The sludge trap was half full of debris, I'm glad I spent the extra time to check it. I had the heads reconditioned and the crank polished & chamfered per Guzziology.
Should I buy another chrome bore Guzzi, I would count on doing an engine teardown to replace the cylinders & service the crank....hopefully factoring that scope of work into the purchase price. On the other hand, I've heard of folks replacing the 850 chrome bore engine with a used fully serviceable 1000cc engine for a lot less expense and to hell with originality.
Good luck!
What 1000cc motors can you swap into a 850T? (what model and years?) Can you just put the pistons and barrels? Or are the rods and heads different as well?
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Doesn
What 1000cc motors can you swap into a 850T? (what model and years?) Can you just put the pistons and barrels? Or are the rods and heads different as well?
Doen't the CX100 and SP have round barrels? They would at least look correct on a Loop (or 850T/T3).
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Let me add my 2 cents..They DO NOT have to sit for years, be stored in humidity etc to flake...They were defective from the git- go, I believe..I bought a NEW Eldorado in 1973. I maintained it well and drove it year round daily to work and long trips on the weekends, LOVED it. Then around 22,000 miles, past any warranty, the chrome flaked on both cylinders. Pre- internet days. No available replacement parts inventories, few knowledgable dealers and I waited for 6 months for replacement CHROME cylinders, pistons and pins/rings from Guzzi..I was too dumb to consider "where did the flakes go?" and soon the engine was sounding like an air hammer rattling. Drove it that way to Key west and back to D.C. on a month long camping trip then Traded it in on a NEW 1975 Goldwing. Thought I was DONE forever with Guzzi. Lesson learned? Get rid of the chrome BEFORE it flakes.
Wasn't the bike used in a high humidity area, perhaps close to salt water?
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Doesn't the CX100 and SP have round barrels? They would at least look correct on a Loop (or 850T/T3).
Convert, CX100, SP, G5 all swap into a T easily. Square-fins will too.
If you used the 88 mm "barrels", the "spigots" would likely need to be turned down slightly or the case opening bored larger. Rods are the same, heads are different (exhaust mounting differences - threaded nut vs. two studs). You might also need to use T3 and later rockers (lifters and pushrods) for pushrod-to-tunnel clearance, but still might need to open up the tunnels some.
Better to use the entire engine especially if the 850-T is an early one without an oil filter.
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Wasn't the bike used in a high humidity area, perhaps close to salt water?
Well, Washington D.C. is pretty humid in the summertime, and they do salt the roads when it sometimes snows? Not sure if you are kidding? But the bike was easy ridden almost continuously till she crapped the cylinders. Just saying, mine wasn't a un-oiled barn sitter and then busted flakes years later on start up. Mine flaked under normal use. So my NEXT Chrome bore loop is getting Nikasil.
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Well, Washington D.C. is pretty humid in the summertime, and they do salt the roads when it sometimes snows? Not sure if you are kidding? But the bike was easy ridden almost continuously till she crapped the cylinders. Just saying, mine wasn't a un-oiled barn sitter and then busted flakes years later on start up. Mine flaked under normal use. So my NEXT Chrome bore loop is getting Nikasil.
Just wondering.
It's possible the chrome lining failed for the same reasons the Nikasil failed for Jaguar, too much sulphur in the fuel.
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Define "ridden regularly". Even if that is 20 miles a day, for let's say 52 days a year (Sunday only - to church and back :wink: ) it works out to 1040 miles a year. Times that by 40 years. How regularly has one been ridden if it only has 15k miles on it? Or 20k miles? 30k miles? It's done
I rode it in norCal which is a dry climate and changed the Walmart dino oil every1,500 miles. Part of the time I had Slick 50 in it which really quieted the valve train down. Ran a sidecar on it most the time. Maybe the fact norCal is low in humidity helped. None of my bikes/cars rust here out west. Forget how many thousands of miles I rode it Sold it for more than I paid for it. :thumb:
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Have you actually checked to see what cylinders you have? Easy to find out by simply inserting a "pencil magnet" in through the sparkplug hole and touching it to the cylinder wall. No magnetic attraction: chrome, very slight: Nikasil, strong: iron liners.
Shouldn't it be:
No attraction = nikasil
slight = chrome
strong = iron
I think you guys are convincing me to change my cylinders sooner than later. Mine's a 77 850 T3, quiet and runs strong. Takes maybe a quart in 3K miles. Had 39K on the clock when purchased this summer, now at 44K
One of the valve cover screws is sheared so need to pull the head to fix that. It's work hardened and a drill bit won't touch it. I've got a set of 850 Gilardonis waiting in the wings, so perhaps this is the time. Is there any helpful advice doing this job or is it as straight-forward and simple as it would appear? I've learned, having done BMWs for a lot of years, not to assume anything. It seems like it should be a simple job, but I'd like to know any tricks or pit falls to watch for.
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Shouldn't it be:
No attraction = nikasil
slight = chrome
strong = iron
I think you guys are convincing me to change my cylinders sooner than later. Mine's a 77 850 T3, quiet and runs strong. Takes maybe a quart in 3K miles. Had 39K on the clock when purchased this summer, now at 44K
One of the valve cover screws is sheared so need to pull the head to fix that. It's work hardened and a drill bit won't touch it. I've got a set of 850 Gilardonis waiting in the wings, so perhaps this is the time. Is there any helpful advice doing this job or is it as straight-forward and simple as it would appear? I've learned, having done BMWs for a lot of years, not to assume anything. It seems like it should be a simple job, but I'd like to know any tricks or pit falls to watch for.
If you put on Nikasil you need the right piston rings for them, or did they come with the jugs?.
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I can confirm that nikasil has a slight magnetic attraction. Slight but it's there and you'll feel it..
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Wrong on the footsteps two.
The earth has a nickel iron core. Both of these elements will create a magnetic field and react magnetically. Chrome does not.
So Nicasil, a nickel/silicon compound will have a mild magnetic attraction, chrome? Nuffink!
Pete
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I have an early T3 that's been sitting for a long time and, sure enough, a large chunk of chrome is missing in one bore(and I can't find it which is worrying). I'm confident that the engine hasn't been run with the chrome flaking as the big ends etc are totally clean and there's no marks on the piston.
Planning the have Langcourt in the UK replate the barrels with nicasil. I have the original 4 ring pistons in good condition. Can the original rings be used with nicasil?
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"Original" rings work equally well with chrome and Nikasil. Or buy Deves rings which work with everything.
Shouldn't it be:
No attraction = nikasil
slight = chrome
strong = iron
No, I had it correct the first time. Chrome has absolutely zero magnetic attraction.
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Chromium is remarkable for its magnetic properties: it is the only elemental solid which shows antiferromagnetic (non magnetic) ordering at room temperature (and below). Above 38 °C, it transforms into a paramagnetic (attracted to a magnet) state.
Found this - first google result
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Chromium is remarkable for its magnetic properties: it is the only elemental solid which shows antiferromagnetic (non magnetic) ordering at room temperature (and below). Above 38 �C, it transforms into a paramagnetic (attracted to a magnet) state.
Found this - first google result
But, for our cylinder material identification purposes, it has no magnetic attraction.
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But, for our cylinder material identification purposes, it has no magnetic attraction.
:1:
:Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
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I bought a '71 Ambassador in '77 and rode it from MN to CA. At 60K it was getting tired so it was time for a refurb. I found a machine shop in Sacramento that did a lot of work on police Guzzis. They said that the difference in the expansion rates between the chrome and aluminum caused the chrome to crack and peel off. The chrome would embed in the bearings and chew things up. Their fix was to sleeve the cylinders and recut the ring grooves in the pistons and fit them with automotive type rings. Their work held up and I put over 200K on two Ambassadores.
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Interesting hearing about all the experiences here. So here's mine.
I bought my 70 Ambo as a pile of parts as the PO had pulled it apart to do a complete resto. He unfortunately died and the pile of parts sat for ? years. I bought the pile about 5 yrs ago and did the job and have been riding it for about 2 years now. The engine had been stripped down to the block with the cyls removed and the pan and front covers also removed when I got it. The speedometer said 40+ K miles and I assume that was the orig. miles. The cyls. had iron sleeves in them, and I could see they had been run that way, but very little as the cross hatching was undisturbed and no discernible ridge on the top of the cyl. I pulled the whole bottom end down and checked everything and it looked like everything was original with wear but all within specs.!! The slinger was nearly full of gunk for sure but everything else looked good. We miked the original pistons and the iron bores and again all in spec.!! Oh and in the pile of parts was a complete new set of correct rings! With a light hone on the cyls, new seals and gaskets the whole works went together and its been running great for two years and about 4k miles.
From all this I have deduced that while it had chrome bores someone resleeved them before they had a total fail. No trace of chips damaging any bearings or cam lobes so I lucked out. But whoever did the sleeving did sloppy assembly work because one piston was installed backwards, and one old head gasket in the pile had been installed upside down. The evdince being a new oil drain hole being punched in it with a phillips screwdriver ( a + shaped hole). I did get the whole works pretty cheap so all in all I did pretty good.
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I did mine, and found it to be straight forward. If you have airhead experience, it will be easy.
Everything is built stout in this design. The internal pushrods tubes are an improvement on the BMW design.
With all parts on hand, this is easily done in a day.
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At the Nationals in John Day I talked to Dennis who rode up from the State of Jefferson section of NorCal. His old loop was quite unique. I believe he said he had put about 500,000 miles on it since 1979, chrome cylinders were never replaced. Notice the non-fix for exhaust port thread damage, just pack 'em and strap 'em with chain to pull the header pipe in.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/g4WXOv/IMG_0599.jpg) (http://ibb.co/g4WXOv)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/cgPVAa/IMG_0593.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cgPVAa)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/nc5FbF/IMG_0606.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nc5FbF)
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I've known Dennis Venema for a lot of years from the Redding area. Apparently what he didn't tell you is he has a bunch of old Eldo donors if and when he needs any parts. He lives in a cabin with no electricity. You are liable to meet him at most any Guzzi National. :bow: His and my motto is, If it ain't broke, don't fix it. :grin:
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That's good news about nikasil being slightly magnetic. The last time this topic came up, it was stated that chrome was slightly magnetic, not nikasil. My cylinders are slightly magnetic. I'll have to check the parts bike cylinders (chrome) just to verify.
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I have a set of original chromed bore cylinders from a 1973 V7 Sport on the shelf, just went to test them with a strong neodymium magnet five minutes ago.
zero attraction.
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Shouldn't it be:
No attraction = nikasil
slight = chrome
strong = iron
No. Chrome is not magnetic at any temperature we'd be checking it, as far as I know. <shrug>
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Does anybody know the difference between nikasil vs. nigusil cylinders (if any) ?
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Nothing, it was just a naming thing.
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I bought my Ambo with 22k and I noticed lack of power and smoke on the left side. Sure enough, lots of chrome loss and also broken rings (not sure if related). Right cylinder looked fine. Cleaned out my engine case and took my crankshaft/camshaft/rods down to Charlie and he advised the crank was a little pitted so we sent it out to be ground. Have my Gilardonis now and its running great. Attached is a picture of the chrome loss. (Left cylinder is on the right)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/efgJVa/Cylinders.jpg) (http://ibb.co/efgJVa)
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My Father's '72 Eldo was torn down and stored in wooden boxes in '75. In 2011 I got the bike and started putting it back together and restoring it. Chrome bores where in good shape less than 25,000 miles on the clock. Never could get it to run "Nice". This summer put in Gilardoni's and she purrs like a kitten (a loud one LOL). Argue about the chrome all day long in the end the new jugs and pistons will make it run better.
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I have iron bores in my T3 and V7 Sport. Chrome in the Ambassador that was replaced with a another chrome bore when the left cylinder was worn. The '72 has Gilardoni's and the '75 Eldo, not sure. I'll have to test. If not then I'll do a top end if the bottom end is whacked. Otherwise an engine swap.
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My Father's '72 Eldo was torn down and stored in wooden boxes in '75.
Why?
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His brother bought the bike and had the transmission rebuilt under warranty. Not sure why he never put it back together. I'm guessing he got married, started a business had kids, moved into a new house and just ran out of spare time. When I asked him he said he couldn't remember LOL. I know he did a good job of hacking up the wiring harness.
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Kind of like my older brother. A "Broke-chanic".