Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: smdl on June 14, 2015, 06:46:04 PM
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About a month ago, I was on a day ride will my Ontario Guzzi Riders friends, and experienced a problem on the ride home, where the bike (2012 Stelvio NTX) wouldn't re-start after stopping at the gas station. I knew it wasn't Startus Interruptus, as I had just installed the fix the night before so I wouldn't get stuck out of town by that problem. :rolleyes: *sigh* The problem really pointed to a starter issue, but I decided to replace the battery, regardless, as I wanted one that was completely sealed in order to avoid the known leaking acid issue. As expected, this did not have any impact, and the problem remained with symptoms of a loud CLACK, and so much draw that it would actually kill the dash when I pressed the start button.
So, expecting the problem to be with the starter, I took a few minutes to get that out, and found that there was a piece of metal jammed in the drive gear, and evidence of the metal banging around in there an marking up the soft aluminum snout of the starter housing. The metal appeared to be part of a thrust washer/spacer that seemed to be missing from the drive gear shaft. Unfortunately, the metal piece pinged off into the distance when I removed it, so I couldn't take a closer look. It didn't appear that the there was anything still in the area of the starter, so I hoped that I had got all the metal out, and took the starter to an auto electric guy locally. He took about a teaspoon of aluminum shavings (from the metal bouncing around) out of the starter, serviced it, and proclaimed it beaten up, but functionally as good as new. So, it went back in a few weeks ago, and has worked flawlessly... until yesterday.
I arrived home after a 650km ride on the Eldo to see Nick949, and decided to jump on the Stelvio for a quick fuel-up and test of a new ECU map. Bike ran great all the way there and back, but when I re-started to move it back into the garage, you guessed it, [CLACK!] and nothing. So, I took it apart again today, and was amazed to find the snout of the starter even more beat up than before!!
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_0700%20Med_zpsl9jf2x3t.jpg)
Yep, I again found a piece of metal jammed in the drive gear that looked very much like the one I found in there before. Now, wanting to ensure that I had absolutely EVERYTHING foreign out of the bellhousing, I used a magnet with a flexible shaft to reach down in there, and immediately pulled out several pieces of metal that make up some sort of round-section rings:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_0698%20Med_zpsa5klwsor.jpg)
That's a Canadian Loonie and a US quarter to indicate scale.
Between what I have here, and the piece that came out before, I'm pretty confident that I now have the two complete rings accounted for, but now a bigger question looms. What the heck are these things?? Equally as important, where did they come from? I know that someone has had the starter out in the past looking in to see if everything looked okay in there, as the previous owner told me that this was done when looking into the infamous Stelvio "clutch groan" issue (which I have never heard since I purchased it). Is it possible that they simply dropped something inside there by accident? Two separate rings? Or is something disintegrating inside there, and can I expect more of these rings to start flying around in there? Could these possibly be part of the clutch, or? :shocked:
I REALLY don't want to have to pull the gearbox out, but will if needed. I do want to remove the swingarm for greasing, regardless, so I will be part way there.
Any thoughts about what these might be from would be very much appreciated.
Cheers,
Shaun
PS: I have rotated the engine 360 degrees, and have confirmed that all teeth are intact, thankfully. I will get the starter looked at again, but might just purchase a Valeo and keep this one as a spare. It looks like it's been through a war!
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Very simple diagnosis, it's broke. Get a new starter and before you put it in, check the condition of the teeth on the flywheel that the starter engages.
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Very simple diagnosis, it's broke. Get a new starter and before you put it in, check the condition of the teeth on the flywheel that the starter engages.
Thanks, Jim, but what is broke? What are these rings from? I don't want to replace the starter just to have it damaged by more of the same.
Shaun
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The smaller one looks about right for the retainer ring on the starter shaft. You might take the starter apart and see if there's one or more empty grooves on the shaft.
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My guess is that at least one of them is part of the anti-rattle/shock absorber springs in the Center of the friction plate.
Sorry, but the gearbox will have to come off you can't just hope you've got all the bits out, something is disintegrating in there big time. S'gottabee fixed!
Pete
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The smaller one looks about right for the retainer ring on the starter shaft. You might take the starter apart and see if there's one or more empty grooves on the shaft.
Thanks, Jim. That's exactly what I believed it was when I pulled the starter the first time. The auto electric guy felt so, too, but indicated it wasn't very important.
Shaun
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My guess is that at least one of them is part of the anti-rattle/shock absorber springs in the Center of the friction plate.
Sorry, but the gearbox will have to come off you can't just hope you've got all the bits out, something is disintegrating in there big time. S'gottabee fixed!
Pete
Thanks, Pete. That's what I was worried about. Only 2.5 months off warranty, as well.
Oh, well, as you say, there's no avoiding it. Any tips on the easiest way to go about removing the gearbox on one of these beasts?
Cheers,
Shaun
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Looking at this more closely, I'm afraid that Pete is likely correct:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/976053_zpsqwtwuunl.jpg)
I wonder if one of the springs came apart first, then got tossed around and damaged the retainer ring? Suppose it doesn't really matter which was first, though.
Shaun
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If the small one is from the starter, I doubt if it could have hurt the big springs, but big chunks of one of those springs could have done (probably did) a lot of damage.
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Thanks, Pete. That's what I was worried about. Only 2.5 months off warranty, as well.
Oh, well, as you say, there's no avoiding it. Any tips on the easiest way to go about removing the gearbox on one of these beasts?
Cheers,
Shaun
Wayne Orwig has done that job and described it for his Stelvio.
I blacked out in terror half-way through reading it.
Lannis
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Wayne Orwig has done that job and described it for his Stelvio.
I blacked out in terror half-way through reading it.
Lannis
Hmmm, reassuring. Do you know if Wayne had a thread going on it?
Thanks,
Shaun
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Sorry to tell you this but getting the gearbox out of a Stelvio is an absolute sod of a job. Of all of the modern bikes it has the most crap that has to be removed and the most awkward angles and dangles to get around to get the motive unit in and out. Be prepared to curse a lot! I did. Betcha Wayne did and I'll even hazard a guess that Phang and his mate did! :laugh:
Pete
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Yep, looks like you had a spring come out of the clutch for some odd reason.
Not sure I really did a write up when I dropped the motor, maybe I did. Nothing special, just work. I remember that the engine vent housing on the left would catch on the frame when I tried to drop the engine. So I was doing something wrong there. And I borrowed an alignment tool for the clutch, but I'm not sure it was really needed.
Looks like the front wheel and headlights are about all that stay in place. :boozing:
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/IMAG0113.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/worwig/media/publicshare/IMAG0113.jpg.html)
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Ugh, you guys are just full of good news! :sad: So, it sounds like I can't just take the gearbox out by itself? Well, I guess I'll start going through the manual...
With the 750S tribute just starting to come together, the Eldo needing some attention to the rear main seal, and the Stelvio about to go to pieces, I'll soon have three of four spread around the shop. Maybe I need to get another one so I'll be sure I always have a couple of spares running at any given time!
Cheers,
Shaun
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Yep, looks like you had a spring come out of the clutch for some odd reason.
Not sure I really did a write up when I dropped the motor, maybe I did. Nothing special, just work. I remember that the engine vent housing on the left would catch on the frame when I tried to drop the engine. So I was doing something wrong there. And I borrowed an alignment tool for the clutch, but I'm not sure it was really needed.
Looks like the front wheel and headlights are about all that stay in place. :boozing:
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee208/worwig/publicshare/IMAG0113.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/worwig/media/publicshare/IMAG0113.jpg.html)
Thanks for adding the picture, Wayne. I can now see that I am going to need to rig some sort of a sling from the ceiling... so I can HANG MYSELF!!! :shocked:
Well, I guess this will give me a good opportunity to go through the bike and make sure that everything is well lubricated, etc.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Taking it apart is a hell of alot easier than putting that mess back together!
Good luck.
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Take it to a dealer and try for a warranty fix. Then, get a lawyer. Couldn't hurt.
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Taking it apart is a hell of alot easier than putting that mess back together!
Good luck.
Good point. I could take the Wile E. Coyote route: Use dynamite to get it apart. I'll probably have as much fun getting it back together as if I use wrenches...
:grin:
Shaun
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Take it to a dealer and try for a warranty fix. Then, get a lawyer. Couldn't hurt.
Thanks, Kent. Although I don't entirely disagree with the sentiment, that's not really my way. Being the eternal optimist, I'll look at this as an opportunity to get to know the bike really well. Just think how well-prepared I will be should something go wrong in future? :rolleyes:
For those who may need to follow, I will plan to take pictures as I go. I might actually post them, too, if I get it back together and find that it actually works...
Cheers,
Shaun
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Shaun, as you can see you can actually leave the throttlebodies and manifolds attatched to the airbox and then either lift the frame up or lower the bench with the engine on it.
The biggest embuggerance to my mind with the Stelvio is that you have to do all this buggering about removing lots of little plates, brackets and hangars to get t'other point where you can actually drop the donk out of the frame.
Make sure as well you disconnect all of the wires to sensors, alternator, neutral light etc. they're a PITA too.
Pete
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Ask the dealer. You never know. There are times when it is nice to know the bike really well. 2 1/2 months out of warranty is not it.
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Shaun, as you can see you can actually leave the throttlebodies and manifolds attatched to the airbox and then either lift the frame up or lower the bench with the engine on it.
The biggest embuggerance to my mind with the Stelvio is that you have to do all this buggering about removing lots of little plates, brackets and hangars to get t'other point where you can actually drop the donk out of the frame.
Make sure as well you disconnect all of the wires to sensors, alternator, neutral light etc. they're a PITA too.
Pete
Thanks, Pete. Looks like I can leave the front engine mounts attached (but loose) so they can act as a pivot point?
Anything else I should consider doing when I've got it all apart? I know about greasing the swingarm bearings, and doing this work will address some of the other items, like ensuring that the upper engine mounts are tight (with thread locker). I'll also be leveraging this opportunity to install my new lowered shock, and have a spare side stand that I will modify to suit. I'd really like to look at any other known issues while in there.
Barring any actual physical damage to other components, is it always necessary/recommended to replace/machine pressure plate, flywheel, etc., or should I be okay with just the friction plate? Bike has just under 30,000km.
Thanks,
Shaun
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Ask the dealer. You never know. There are times when it is nice to know the bike really well. 2 1/2 months out of warranty is not it.
Yes, I'll chat with the dealer. Not sure to what effect, but it's always a discussion worth having.
Thanks,
Shaun
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Damn, that is a tough break Shaun, good luck with the dealer, hopefully they will at least cover the parts.
Jim
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Hi, Jim.
C'est la vie! No use getting bent out of shape over it. Just in case, I guess I'd better go read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance...
Cheers,
Shaun
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Be prepared to curse a lot! I did. Betcha Wayne did and I'll even hazard a guess that Phang and his mate did! :laugh:
Pete
I believe the Stelvio engine dropping exercise earned lots of curse in many languages, recently added some in Chinese dialects :violent1:
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C'est la vie! No use getting bent out of shape over it. Just in case, I guess I'd better go read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance...
:1:
Good reason to bond with the bike. :laugh:
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Hoo boy, this sounds like it's going to be fun. Good thing I have lots of spare time to work on projects like this. :rolleyes: It's also a good thing that I bought a reliable new-ish bike so I will always be able to ride it while I'm working on my unreliable older bikes... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
:grin:
I see in the manual that a "centering tool" is indicated, but it looks like that won't be needed unless I need to actually remove the pressure plate? Hopefully, if all looks good when I get in there, and the friction plate is all that's needed, I won't have to worry about that. Or am I deluding myself?
Cheers,
Shaun
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No, the tool isn't needed, nor does it really center the friction plate. To be honest I'm a bit baffled as to what it's purpose actually is :rolleyes:. The way I do it is to loosely bolt on the pressure plate so the friction plate can still move then mount the box and push it home. Then I remove it again and tighten down the pressure plate and finish reassembling the rest of the clutch. That way the box just slips back in like pushing a greasy stick up a dog's bum.
Pete
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No, the tool isn't needed, nor does it really center the friction plate. To be honest I'm a bit baffled as to what it's purpose actually is :rolleyes:. The way I do it is to loosely bolt on the pressure plate so the friction plate can still move then mount the box and push it home. Then I remove it again and tighten down the pressure plate and finish reassembling the rest of the clutch. That way the box just slips back in like pushing a greasy stick up a dog's bum.
Pete
Thanks, Pete. You do, erm, have a way with words that is quite unlike anyone else I have encountered. Hope you never change. :grin:
Shaun
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Does your dog know that you talk about him that way?
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The clutch centering tool is not needed as Pete said.
We used a different approach. By measuring the inner diameter of the clutch cover and the OD of the friction plate hub, we worked out the gap as shown in the pic.
Bolt on the cover loosely, use a suitable size rod to go around the gap and torque it up after that.
The gear box (transmission) just "slips back in like pushing a greasy stick up a dog's bum" :grin:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/PDSCN2334_zpsmmdqdacv.jpg)
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The clutch centering tool is not needed as Pete said.
We used a different approach. By measuring the inner diameter of the clutch cover and the OD of the friction plate hub, we worked out the gap as shown in the pic.
Bolt on the cover loosely, use a suitable size rod to go around the gap and torque it up after that.
The gear box (transmission) just "slips back in like pushing a greasy stick up a dog's bum" :grin:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/PDSCN2334_zpsmmdqdacv.jpg)
Thanks, Phang! No offense, but I really wouldn't want to be a dog down in the southern hemisphere! :grin:
Shaun
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Thanks, Phang! No offense, but I really wouldn't want to be a dog down in the southern hemisphere! :grin:
Shaun
No, we don't shaft a stick in a dog's bum like the aussie, we cook them in curry or sweet and sour sauce :food:
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No, we don't shaft a stick in a dog's bum like the aussie, we cook them in curry or sweet and sour sauce :food:
Still feeling a little sorry for the canine contingent down there! :grin:
Cheers,
Shaun
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With the tonti big blocks you can stick an endoscope/borescope through the timing hole and starter opening and look for loose bits in the bell housing. Can you do that with the stelvio?
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Yes, in fact it's even easier because there is a huge great slot in the bottom of the bell housing, (Out of which a host of shit will of fallen.) that you can stick a boroscope up.mat the end of the day though we have bits of busted spring and a mullah'd starter motor. Whatever causes that sort of damage isn't going to simply 'Vanish' the problem if you make sure you get the bits out.
Unfortunately the clutch is 'Donald Ducked' and the only way to deal with it is take stuff apart and fix it.
Pete
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That way the box just slips back in like pushing a greasy stick up a dog's bum.
I do hope that's not the voice of experience :laugh:
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Hoo boy, this sounds like it's going to be fun. Good thing I have lots of spare time to work on projects like this. :rolleyes:
:grin:
Cheers,
Shaun
Well, you certainly do have a positive, cheerful attitude about it.
If my 3-year-old new $15,000 bike had puked its guts all over the place requiring a complete teardown, and there was no warranty coverage, I would probably be calm and collected too, but in another way.
I'd calmly tow it to a dealer, calmly ask them to fix it, calmly pay the bill, and calmly ask them after it was fixed if I could leave the worthless piece of unreliable crap at their shop while the 7 days of eBay ticked down, starting with a $.99 bid and no reserve ...
I've already told my Stelvio that, and it's been behaving well. Got 2000 miles of riding to do in the next couple weeks, and I'm expecting quality performance, not China Syndrome internal metallurgy failures.
Good luck!
Lannis
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sorry to hear of your woes Shaun. Dan gave me the bug....im in Espanola heading for the Soo and point north. Eldo, of course.
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Shaun; for what it's worth, last Saturday I helped a friend pull the swingarm on a Norge so we could check the bearings. The whole job (to include lubing the drive shaft splines and shock linkage needle bearings) took just 3 hours start to finish. We could have done it quicker but Mark only had a minimal set of tools. Some "T" handle allen wrenches and socket extensions would have been handy.
Peter Y.
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sorry to hear of your woes Shaun. Dan gave me the bug....im in Espanola heading for the Soo and point north. Eldo, of course.
Have fun, Nick. I now know what a great bike your Eldo is! By the way, I did raise the needles on my Eldo today, and it definitely liked it. I have some jets on the way, and will have some more fun with it. Not too much, though, as I think I have a u-joint issue, and I want to get the gearbox out to seal the back on the engine. All good fun!
Shaun
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Lannis and Peter, thanks for the well-wishes and the information. Seems I have lots of Guzzi work to do, but it's not the end of the world. I will persevere!
Cheers,
Shaun
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HI, folks.
I'm digging in to change the clutch, and thought I would tap the knowledge and experience of WG. Swingarm and shock are out (latter to be replaced by a lowered Matris unit), and I am digging into the engine mounts, wiring, etc.. A couple of questions that I haven't seen answers for in the manual (yet):
1. Does anyone know what gaskets I am likely to need to replace? I'm thinking intake manifolds, exhaust head pipes, etc. I don't know if any of these modern items are considered reusable.
2. What retains the driveshaft/u-joint in the gearbox? I'm sure I will find the answer to this shortly, but it never hurts to ask!
Cheers,
Shaun
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I can't think of any gaskets you need to replace to do a clutch?
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Thanks, Pete. You do, erm, have a way with words that is quite unlike anyone else I have encountered. Hope you never change. :grin:
Shaun Shaun: I really admire your equanimity in the face of this disaster. I'd be fuming after the second starter removal! Good luck! Jurgen
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I can't think of any gaskets you need to replace to do a clutch?
Hi, Pete.
First time doing this on a modern CARC bike, so don't know what to expect. For example, the manual indicates that I need to remove the exhaust system (which I am about to do) in order to drop the engine, and I don't know if that means that the series of exhaust gaskets can be re-used, or if it expected to re-use these. For example:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=4561 (http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=4561)
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=3116 (http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=3116)
Same with the intake manifold gaskets. You had indicated that I could just disconnect the manifolds at the heads, and leave them in the air box (thanks for that tip). Wondered if I should plan to replace the intake manifold gaskets?
Overall, I am trying to put together a list of parts to order, and am trying to be complete as possible as every additional order takes at least a week to arrive.
Thanks for the help -- it's very much appreciated!
Shaun
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HI, folks.
I'm digging in to change the clutch, and thought I would tap the knowledge and experience of WG. Swingarm and shock are out (latter to be replaced by a lowered Matris unit), and I am digging into the engine mounts, wiring, etc.. A couple of questions that I haven't seen answers for in the manual (yet):
1. Does anyone know what gaskets I am likely to need to replace? I'm thinking intake manifolds, exhaust head pipes, etc. I don't know if any of these modern items are considered reusable.
2. What retains the driveshaft/u-joint in the gearbox? I'm sure I will find the answer to this shortly, but it never hurts to ask!
Cheers,
Shaun
Glad to see that you are carrying on.
Just as an encouragement, my Stelvio has done the 2500 miles of running around the country over the past few months that I said I would, and is running like a Swiss watch from just over the border from Italy.
If you can hang in there, you might go 150,000 miles without ANY more problems ... it's happened before!!
Lannis
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Thanks, Jurgen. I won't say that I haven't invented a few new words in the process :grin:, but it's fortunate that I enjoy working on motorcycles!
Cheers.
Shaun
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Thanks, Jurgen. I won't say that I haven't invented a few new words in the process :grin:, but it's fortunate that I enjoy working on motorcycles!
Cheers.
Shaun
Thanks, Lannis. Fingers crossed, for sure. I will say that these modern bikes, while wonderful in so many ways, really make me appreciate my old Eldo from a mechanical/electrical simplicity perspective. I had that one apart for a u-joint change a couple of weeks ago, and there was a lot less to worry about! Still, the new bikes are fun, too, especially with the ability to tweak with fun tools, like Guzzidiag!
All good fun!
Shaun
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1. Does anyone know what gaskets I am likely to need to replace? I'm thinking intake manifolds, exhaust head pipes, etc. I don't know if any of these modern items are considered reusable.
2. What retains the driveshaft/u-joint in the gearbox? I'm sure I will find the answer to this shortly, but it never hurts to ask!
With care, no gaskets should be needed. I damaged a gasket in the Y pipe when I jammed the header pipe in poorly.
The driveshaft is held to the output shaft with a spring loaded clip. A good 'soft' rod to tap/pry it off will help.
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With care, no gaskets should be needed. I damaged a gasket in the Y pipe when I jammed the header pipe in poorly.
The driveshaft is held to the output shaft with a spring loaded clip. A good 'soft' rod to tap/pry it off will help.
Thanks, Wayne. So, just to confirm, it's not a clip that I need to remove and then slide the driveshaft out? I just need to lightly persuade the driveshaft to overcome the tension of the spring-loaded clip?
Thanks,
Shaun
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Go for it Shaun - we're rooting for you. :popcorn: I won't even be disappointed if you ride the Stelvio to Lavigne after all your efforts :thumb: :boozing:
Nick
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Thanks, Wayne. So, just to confirm, it's not a clip that I need to remove and then slide the driveshaft out? I just need to lightly persuade the driveshaft to overcome the tension of the spring-loaded clip?
Yes, though it may need a bit more than 'light' persuading.
Of course grease all splines and swingarm bearings when reassembling.
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Go for it Shaun - we're rooting for you. :popcorn: I won't even be disappointed if you ride the Stelvio to Lavigne after all your efforts :thumb: :boozing:
Nick
Thanks, Nick! Not a chance! I'll be happy to have the parts on order while we are in Lavigne. Then, I'll be even happier if I can figure out how to get Humpty-Dumpty back together again!
Cheers,
Shaun
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Here's a photo of the inside of the splined Cardan shaft...see the clip?
(https://peteryoungblood.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/12-Stelvio-NTX/i-pZ7mJP6/0/M/IMG_0405-M.jpg)
It takes a right smart smack to pop the joint off the output shaft. You can also try pushing a wedge between the end of the output shaft and the joint.
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Yes, though it may need a bit more than 'light' persuading.
Of course grease all splines and swingarm bearings when reassembling.
Great, thanks, Wayne.
Shaun
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Here's a photo of the inside of the splined Cardan shaft...see the clip?
(https://peteryoungblood.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/12-Stelvio-NTX/i-pZ7mJP6/0/M/IMG_0405-M.jpg)
It takes a right smart smack to pop the joint off the output shaft. You can also try pushing a wedge between the end of the output shaft and the joint.
Yep, very helpful. Thanks again, all.
I might not be very fast at this, but with all you guys helping, I'll make it eventually! :bow:
Cheers,
Shaun
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Hi, Pete.
First time doing this on a modern CARC bike, so don't know what to expect. For example, the manual indicates that I need to remove the exhaust system (which I am about to do) in order to drop the engine, and I don't know if that means that the series of exhaust gaskets can be re-used, or if it expected to re-use these. For example:
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=4561 (http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=4561)
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=3116 (http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=26&products_id=3116)
Same with the intake manifold gaskets. You had indicated that I could just disconnect the manifolds at the heads, and leave them in the air box (thanks for that tip). Wondered if I should plan to replace the intake manifold gaskets?
Overall, I am trying to put together a list of parts to order, and am trying to be complete as possible as every additional order takes at least a week to arrive.
Thanks for the help -- it's very much appreciated!
Shaun
Sorry, for some reason I thought this was a V7 :shocked: I'll go back and have a squizz and reacquaint my self with the thread.
If it's a Stelvio it's a right frontbottom of a job.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8663/16073454779_4d19b0f9b8_z.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7493/16233419826_85d9d73b04_z.jpg)
Pete
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See, the front calipers stay on. A huge time saving right there.
:violent1:
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You had to pull the donk on yours at one point didn't you Wayne? It really is a hateful job.
Pete
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Sorry, for some reason I thought this was a V7 :shocked: I'll go back and have a squizz and reacquaint my self with the thread.
If it's a Stelvio it's a right frontbottom of a job.
[Snip]
Pete
Yes, it is... :sad:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1439%20Med_zps5kswzw4w.jpg)
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Nice fly swat! :grin:
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Yes, it is... :sad:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1439%20Med_zps5kswzw4w.jpg)
Hey Gunga, you're brave!
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Hey Shaun, are bugs an issue? Note the fly swat. :laugh:
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You had to pull the donk on yours at one point didn't you Wayne? It really is a hateful job.
Yes, there is a photo of mine on the first pages. Looks a lot like the one you posted.
Leave on the front wheel and headlights. Strip everything else.
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Hey Shaun, are bugs an issue? Note the fly swat. :laugh:
Yeah, like I always say, you've got to have the right tool for the job! :laugh: Heat warning today, and the flies have gotten a little bothersome. Now come the mosquitoes!!
Back out to slave a little more.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Hey Gunga, you're brave!
Brave or stupid, maybe. :grin:
Shaun
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I found getting the motor out of the Stelvio more of a pain in the arse than doing the crank up rebuild. Once the lump was on the bench it was a breeze, biggest time consumer was all the measuring and checking. If you're just doing the clutch there's no need to strip anything.
Since the plate has obviously disintegrated it may well of damaged the whole assembly. I'd just bite the bullet and buy a complete clutch and flywheel, if you do that you get the deliciously light pull of the Cali 14 unit. If you decide to go that way let me know immediately and I'll slip the clutch depth tool and all four pushrods in a bag and get 'em over to you. It'll save farting about.
Pete
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I found getting the motor out of the Stelvio more of a pain in the arse than doing the crank up rebuild. Once the lump was on the bench it was a breeze, biggest time consumer was all the measuring and checking. If you're just doing the clutch there's no need to strip anything.
Since the plate has obviously disintegrated it may well of damaged the whole assembly. I'd just bite the bullet and buy a complete clutch and flywheel, if you do that you get the deliciously light pull of the Cali 14 unit. If you decide to go that way let me know immediately and I'll slip the clutch depth tool and all four pushrods in a bag and get 'em over to you. It'll save farting about.
Pete
That's very kind of you, Pete! I guess I'm learning something new, in that the California 14 clutch is now used for the Stelvio (assuming a complete replacement). Looks like that would be part number B014458, if I am reading the parts manual correctly? I suppose you're right, in that I shouldn't take a chance by just replacing the friction disc. The clutch still works perfectly, but it probably doesn't make sense to risk having to pull the whole thing apart again just to save a few bucks. As much fun as this is :rolleyes:, I don't think I'll take it up for regular weekend sport.
So, with bullet firmly between bicuspids, I'll order the full clutch this week. Could I ask that you confirm if I have the right part number: B014458?
Secondly, I can see what you describe about the four different rods being available. I'm not sure why they would use different length rods, except that maybe slave cylinders are different on some models? Regardless, I really appreciate your kind offer to send the pieces needed to check this. You do know that I'm in Canada, right? :undecided: I'll send you a PM with my information.
Thanks again!
Shaun
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2A000107 is the latest supercession.
Buy it in the USA and its $595. Over here theywat over $1200 AU for it!
I've got an early clutch in stock you can have for $500 if you like. Heavier spring though.
Pete
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2A000107 is the latest supercession.
Buy it in the USA and its $595. Over here theywat over $1200 AU for it!
I've got an early clutch in stock you can have for $500 if you like. Heavier spring though.
Pete
Thanks, Pete. It'll be interesting to see what they charge in Canada. Our dollar is pretty weak now, so that doesn't help. I think I'll stick with the new one, as it would probably cost too much to ship yours over here.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Yah, I'd go with the latest iteration. Looks like I'm stuck with the turdy early version for my POS when it wears out! :grin:
Tools and gaskets on the way.
Pete
PS, while the lump is out I'd throw an alternator belt at it. Much easier than doing it in the frame.
Pete
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Can't thank you enough, Pete. I'll get everything back to you ASAP.
Adding an alternator belt to my list.
Shaun
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Does the same hold true for the Griso 8v? (dismantling the bike to this degree to remove the transmission?) How about for the older 2v 1200? In my case the 1200 Sport? I've only pulled one bike tranny, and that was on my R100GS airhead. Dirty job, but not too difficult. Engine stayed bolted to the frame. and bike remained on its center stand.
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Hadn't thought about using an auto engine hoist to lift up the back end of my Norge. Thanks Pete.
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Does the same hold true for the Griso 8v? (dismantling the bike to this degree to remove the transmission?) How about for the older 2v 1200? In my case the 1200 Sport? I've only pulled one bike tranny, and that was on my R100GS airhead. Dirty job, but not too difficult. Engine stayed bolted to the frame. and bike remained on its center stand.
Basically yes. Griso and Sport are both easier than a Stelvio though as there is so much less extraneous crap hanging off them and the heads aren't bolted to the frame.
Pete
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Basically yes. Griso and Sport are both easier than a Stelvio though as there is so much less extraneous crap hanging off them and the heads aren't bolted to the frame.
Are those bolts in the heads, or cylinders?
As in, will I need to pull the tank to install kit C?
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Are those bolts in the heads, or cylinders?
As in, will I need to pull the tank to install kit C?
Bolts are in the head, and in first series they made it such that the head doesn't come off, without removing the cylinder stud bolts. Exactly the series where the c kit is needed, they made it in such way.
You won't mount the C kit without removing the tank because you need to be inside the V to get tension of the chain.
But the tank off, 20 minutes if not the first time.
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I've only done a later Stelvio. What fouls the heads on the early ones that you need to remove the studs? I know the barrel won't come off without stud removal or lifting the frame, but the heads?
Pete
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Well, back at it today, and I have everything connected to remove the engine/gearbox. Using two scissor jacks (flat top, made for motorcycles), I am able to lower or raise the engine and gearbox to play with angles, and such. However, I really can't see how I am going to work around the frame piece on the right side that contacts the gearbox right at the gearbox output shaft. I know if must be possible, as others have done it, but I just can't see where I am going to get enough movement in to get around that. Really not a considerate design by Guzzi!
Anyone who has been here before, any tricks you can share? I can't see how you could possibly have forgotten this piece! :angry:
Thanks,
Shaun
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So is the motive unit now 'Loose' in the frame Shaun? I found I had to lift the frame as well as lower the engine. Be aware that the plastic cover over what used to be the breather port on the timing chest is a pain in the arse to work around when putting the frame back on.
Has that bag of tools arrived yet? It was 'Gauranteed' to get to you in two days. If it still isn't there I'll have to do some shouting!
Pete
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Hi, Pete.
Yes, it's now loose, with both engine and gearbox moving easily up and down. Looks like this, at the moment:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1445%20Med_zpsxucgd2lm.jpg)
Here is the problem area:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1449%20Med_zpsoxzcjua9.jpg)
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1448%20Med_zps6jh2qecl.jpg)
Unfortunately the engine and gearbox mounts constrain side-to-side movement, and fore/aft movement is limited, too:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1450%20Med_zpsqp7ecigw.jpg)
Any thoughts on how to get around this?
No, unfortunately, the tools have not yet arrived. Being inspected by Customs, no doubt. Will likely arrive Monday. I'll probably be waiting another 10 days for the clutch from Piaggio, regardless.
Thanks again for all your help.
Shaun
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Jeez, it's hard to remember details like this. I'll have a look at my pics. I seem to remember I had to sort of twist it out. Make sure all the cables for stuff like the oil pressure switch and all the alternator crap are out of the way. Neutral light switch wire needs disconnecting too and is easy to miss. Clutch slave is a right royal PITA too.
Pete
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Jeez, it's hard to remember details like this. I'll have a look at my pics. I seem to remember I had to sort of twist it out. Make sure all the cables for stuff like the oil pressure switch and all the alternator crap are out of the way. Neutral light switch wire needs disconnecting too and is easy to miss. Clutch slave is a right royal PITA too.
Pete
Oooo, thanks for the reminder on the neutral switch! I couldn't locate it from the crappy little picture in the manual, and made a mental note (in invisible ink, apparently) to watch for it as soon as I started lowering the power pack. I do have the clutch slave out of the way using a bungee cord, though.
Headed back out to see if I can find that switch!
Cheers,
Shaun
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Okay, found the neutral switch. Not easy to get to, either! Is this just a spade connector, or something I'm going to need to get a wrench on? There is a boot covering it, and I don't want to start prying on it until I know what it is.
Oh, and I can't see how I can twist the engine or gearbox as it is constrained by the mounts until it can drop below them, and the input shaft flange seems to contact the frame before then. The only thing that I can see working is to move it forward as much as possible. Will keep fiddling with it.
Thanks!
Shaun
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The switch is near/above the transmission output.
I believe..... the front of the motor needs to drop, then the motor goes forward.
BUT, as Pete points out, the vent cover on the left hangs on the frame keeping the front of the motor from dropping.
And the frame will hit the cylinders when you try to go forward.
It's a real pain.
I made an adjustable engine stand just for it, and it was still a pain.
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Okay, found the neutral switch. Not easy to get to, either! Is this just a spade connector, or something I'm going to need to get a wrench on? There is a boot covering it, and I don't want to start prying on it until I know what it is.
Thanks!
Shaun
Spade terminal on a post. Get the rubber boot off and it pulls right off.
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Thanks, Wayne. Back at it.
Shaun
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It looks like I am getting somewhere by dropping the front of the engine and moving it forward, but it seems that what looks like a sensor on the left side of the front timing cover is fowling the frame and limiting movement. Is that something that I should have removed? Doesn't ring a bell from the steps in the manual.
Edit: Looked it up in the parts manual. It isn't a sensor -- it's a "cover". It's item 5 in this image:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/Cover_zpsyp8wdqvg.jpg)
This must be the vent cover that you were referring to?
Anyone have a can opener? :evil:
Thanks.
Shaun
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Well, still haven't got it out. Seems like when I am able to get some fore/aft movement, that "cover" seems to restrict the "fore" enough to prevent clearing the frame down by the output shaft. If I drop the front more, I eventually hit a point when the top of the alternator cover impacts the frame and prevents any further forward movement. I'd pull the little cover off to gain a few millimeters, but the top bolt is obscured by the frame.
I'm going to sleep on it tonight and give it another go first thing tomorrow. I think I'll start by looking to see if I can get the alternator cover off and gain a bit of working room. Not sure that is the right path as the manual doesn't mention it, but worth a try.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Get a mate in! I remember that me press ganging Ian into helping me made it so much easier and we coached each other on our memorised profanity while we were at it.
I seem to remember Phang also waxed lyrical about the number of new Cantonese swear words he learnt while pulling his mate's Stelvio donk! So it's an international, nay, global requirement! If you want to pull a Stelvio power plant you swear, A LOT! :grin:
Pete
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Get a mate in! I remember that me press ganging Ian into helping me made it so much easier and we coached each other on our memorised profanity while we were at it.
I seem to remember Phang also waxed lyrical about the number of new Cantonese swear words he learnt while pulling his mate's Stelvio donk! So it's an international, nay, global requirement! If you want to pull a Stelvio power plant you swear, A LOT! :grin:
Pete
Oh, don't worry, Pete; I'm definitely keeping up the tradition! I'm starting to worry about what the neighbors are going to think of me! :grin: Trouble is, it's peak vacation season here, and most of my mechanically-minded mates are otherwise engaged (away or working). I've got one option (a good one, too) that I might be able to lure out with a promise of a beverage, or two. We'll see.
Otherwise, out come the chain saw and can opener! If the can opener doesn't get the engine out, I might just use it to open a can of whoop-ass! :grin:
More to follow...
Shaun
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Hi Shaun,
I dropped the engine of a Stelvio together with my mate 3 months ago, an extra pairs of helping hand definitely helps.
Besides placing scissors jacks (exactly same like yours but in blue colour if that matters) under the engine, we also use chain block hanging the chassis/bike from the roof trusses. The chain blocks allowed us to tilt the bike fore/aft to facilitate the engine removal.
The engine only came out after we removed the "blanking plate" or cover [5]
Before we shoe horn the engine back to the frame, we made our own "blanking plate" or cover [5] with 3mm aluminium plate and countersunk head bolts, sealed with threebond 1211. A few mm less in width made the engine went back with zero drama and effort and no leak or weep from the port till now.
In case your usual swearings didn't work, I have one for you in Cantonese, it worked on the Stelvio before and your neighbours has no idea what you are yelling too.
Teeewww... (sounds like dew but pronounce in T instead of D) - meaning fxxx
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/20150823_212512_resized_zps7sjowwex.jpg)
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Ice down the motor, that will shrink it down enough for it to drop out. :evil:
:boozing:
The engine only came out after we removed the "blanking plate" or cover [5]
I thought the screws for that plate were hidden behind the frame.
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Hi Shaun,
I dropped the engine of a Stelvio together with my mate 3 months ago, an extra pairs of helping hand definitely helps.
Besides placing scissors jacks (exactly same like yours but in blue colour if that matters) under the engine, we also use chain block hanging the chassis/bike from the roof trusses. The chain blocks allowed us to tilt the bike fore/aft to facilitate the engine removal.
The engine only came out after we removed the "blanking plate" or cover [5]
Before we shoe horn the engine back to the frame, we made our own "blanking plate" or cover [5] with 3mm aluminium plate and countersunk head bolts, sealed with threebond 1211. A few mm less in width made the engine went back with zero drama and effort and no leak or weep from the port till now.
In case your usual swearings didn't work, I have one for you in Cantonese, it worked on the Stelvio before and your neighbours has no idea what you are yelling too.
Teeewww... (sounds like dew but pronounce in T instead of D) - meaning fxxx
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v198/Phang/20150823_212512_resized_zps7sjowwex.jpg)
Blue!! I knew I should have gotten the blue jack!! Teeewww!! I like that -- it rhymes with "blue", and my neighbors will have no clue. Should have been poet...
With regard to the chain hoist, I'm using an engine hoist like in Pete's pictures. I've used this far more for motorcycles that car engines!
Thanks for the idea on replacing the cover/blanking plate. I'm not sure how you got it off with the engine in the bike, but I'm going to go have a look.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Ice down the motor, that will shrink it down enough for it to drop out. :evil:
:boozing:
I thought the screws for that plate were hidden behind the frame.
Great idea, Wayne! Maybe I'll just wait until Winter when it is -30C, then take a blow torch to the frame. Should work a treat! :boozing:
Now, back to the evil #5.
Shaun
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Phang, if you're still tuned in, do you remember how you managed to get that cover off? I can almost get a hex key on the upper bolt (lower was no problem), but I can't see a way to get clearance to remove it.
Thanks.
Shaun
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Thanks for the idea on replacing the cover/blanking plate. I'm not sure how you got it off with the engine in the bike, but I'm going to go have a look.
Cheers,
Shaun
It's not easy, I remember we used a ball ended hex key and long nose pliers to unscrew the two bolts hidden right behind the frame tube.
The cover was deformed, the threads was knackered a little but was restored by running a tap while the engine was out on the floor. That's part of the reason why we decided not to use the same plastic cover when reinstall the engine.
Don't worry, you will get it out eventually.
Remember, if Phang can cook, so can you.
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Thanks, Phang. Funny while waiting for your response, I did almost exactly what you describe, although i didn't need to use pliers, and the threads are fine. I just raised the engine and gearbox to the highest possible position, and that placed the upper bolt on plate 5 just visible within the "Y" of the two frame tubes. A long ball-end hex socket was then able to get in there, and there was just enough space to back the bolt out. That little bit made an enormous difference, and we had the engine out in a few minutes.
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1457%20Med_zpsc6z4tvfk.jpg)
Hah!
Lessons learned:
1. Do not try this alone! You need at least two, and maybe three people to do it safely. Huge thanks to my friends Dom and Steve. It took two of us on the engine, and one on the hoist to make it work. The engine/gearbox combination is also heavy, and moving it from the jacks to a flat surface is not easy.
2. While it must be possible to remove and install the engine without removing cover (5), I really don't see how. Save yourself some trouble, and just plan on taking it off. I am also going to follow Phang's lead and replace it with something thinner.
3. Plan to swear and drink a lot. Stock up on appropriate supplies in advance. :boozing:
4. Don't try this at home. This work was completed by professionals in a controlled environment. Magic words were used, such as "hold my beer" and "watch this" :boozing:
Finally, I think I am going to delete this thread once complete, as no one should be denied the enjoyment of figuring this out on their own. :evil: Seriously, folks, thanks for your help on this. :bow:
Wait until I try to get this thing back in!
Cheers,
Shaun
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Perseverance wins again. :smiley: Attaboy..
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Still want to see what is going on inside there. :gotpics:
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Perseverance wins again. :smiley: Attaboy..
True, but lets not forget brute force and ignorance...
Thanks, Chuck!
Shaun
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Still want to see what is going on inside there. :gotpics:
Me, too! Just taking a quick lunch break, and will then pull the gearbox.
Shaun
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The guy at the factory get the complete unit in the frame, there must be a way to get it out.
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The guy at the factory get the complete unit in the frame, there must be a way to get it out.
Agreed, that's why I said "It must be possible...". However, I don't do it a dozen or more times a day, like he likely does, so I think I'll make it a bit easier on myself.
Shaun
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Okay, got the gearbox off, and everything looks just fine! I don't know what all the fuss was about...
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1459%20Med_zpsjcxzbq8d.jpg)
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1460%20Med_zpsrxcfhum3.jpg)
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1461%20Med_zpshgpzjml5.jpg)
:cry:
I had already planned to replace the entire clutch assembly, including flywheel, but I am now more concerned about the gearbox side. There are no leaks, but a good part of the inner face of the bellhousing has been machined away by the clutch coming apart.
I'll dig into this a bit further, but does anyone know if the bellhousing can easily be replaced without having to disassemble the whole gearbox?
Also, I'm going to need to figure out how the clutch comes apart. If those unrecognizable blobs are actually pan-head hex bolts, I might need to grind them off.
Oh, well, at least I now know what I am dealing with . I also know that there was no doubt that taking this apart was the right thing to do. Good thing I didn't leave it awhile or it would have come apart completely.
Any input would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Impressive tenacity Shaun. :bow: :bow:
Nick
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Shit! What a mess!
Firstly the dome head hex bolts only hold on the ring gear. Grind the buggers off, you'll be junking what they screw into. From memory the new clutch comes with a new ring gear too. Once the ring gear is off you'll be able to get to the other bolts which will hopefully of avoided damage.
As for the case itself? No way to replace that without a complete strip and rebuild into a new case. I suppose the question is how deep has the self propelling lathe tool cut into the casting? I have a spare six speed in the shed, I'll try and compare it with the pics of your damaged one later today.
Pete
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Impressive tenacity Shaun. :bow: :bow:
Nick
Thanks, Nick. Not much choice but to keep going! :whip2:
Shaun
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Shit! What a mess!
Firstly the dome head hex bolts only hold on the ring gear. Grind the buggers off, you'll be junking what they screw into. From memory the new clutch comes with a new ring gear too. Once the ring gear is off you'll be able to get to the other bolts which will hopefully of avoided damage.
As for the case itself? No way to replace that without a complete strip and rebuild into a new case. I suppose the question is how deep has the self propelling lathe tool cut into the casting? I have a spare six speed in the shed, I'll try and compare it with the pics of your damaged one later today.
Pete
Thanks, Pete. Yep, ground 'em off, and I have the whole mess out now. Will post some additional pics shortly.
S
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Okay, here's a shot of the engine side:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1470%20Med_zps9vrc13qr.jpg)
Some good news, in that the area around the main bearing is hardly touched, and the area of idler shaft (or whatever they call what used to be a cam) is only superficially marked. The only area with any significant impact would be the mounting bosses that the center/side stand mechanism bolts into. It's hard to tell exactly how much material has been removed there as I don't have a good picture of an original engine case. However, it looks like there is lots of material remaining, and I don't think it will be an issue.
Pete, it looks like the self-propelling lathe tool machined about 4-5mm into the circular mounting boss, which I assume supports one of the main shafts on the other side. Not sure how much material is there, and what is remaining...
Cheers,
Shaun
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Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but here's a pic of an undamaged case....
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4112/5206105606_d672edd9a1_z.jpg)
Pete
PS. If it isn't leaking then the physical integrity of the case is fine but whether it's structural integrity is alright is the $64,000 question. The temptation would be to just clean it all up thoroughly and build the bearing boss up again with JB Weld or some such but one still wouldn't know if the case has had its strength compromised and you really don't want the case coming apart under load.
Good news is that casing, listed as the 'Clutch Box' retails for only $206 in the U.S. Yes you'll probably need a couple of bearings and seals and I'll have to send you the gearbox splitting tools but it could be a whole lot worse!
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This is all really interesting. I've only see one clutch lose springs like that, and it was a car back in the 60's.
I would guess the problem is, what lies behind that big boss that has the MOTO GUZZI letters on it and how thick is it? Doesn't seem to be leaking....yet. Looks like 1/4" was cut away? Does that make for something really bad or is there enough beef there to survive?
If not could it be built back up by welding? Yeah, cast aluminum and all. And would require a complete teardown to do it. Worth it or just get a new case?
Sorry, didn't see the rest of Pete's post. $200, I'd get a new case.
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Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but here's a pic of an undamaged case....
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4112/5206105606_d672edd9a1_z.jpg)
Pete
PS. If it isn't leaking then the physical integrity of the case is fine but whether it's structural integrity is alright is the $64,000 question. The temptation would be to just clean it all up thoroughly and build the bearing boss up again with JB Weld or some such but one still wouldn't know if the case has had its strength compromised and you really don't want the case coming apart under load.
Good news is that casing, listed as the 'Clutch Box' retails for only $206 in the U.S. Yes you'll probably need a couple of bearings and seals and I'll have to send you the gearbox splitting tools but it could be a whole lot worse!
Thanks, Pete.
Hey, I used to have one that looked just like that! :sad:
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about just building it back up with JB Weld or even regular weld, but with the cost for the new piece being somewhat reasonable, it doesn't make any sense to take that risk. I've never been through a motorcycle gearbox, but now is as good a time as any to learn, I suppose.
Again, thanks for all your help. It really means a lot! I can order the clutch box on Tuesday, along with any other bearings and seals. Is there a standard list of what is needed?
What are your thoughts on the engine side. I think it's okay, but I don't have a good picture of a modern engine to get a feel of how much material was originally present at that mounting area. Still lot's there, so I'm not overly worried, but it would be good to compare.
Cheers,
Shaun
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The engine side is fine. Leave it alone. I'll dig the gearbox splitting tools out and get them off to you. You'll need a washer for under the neutral switch too as that is sensitive and has to be torqued 'Just So' to work correctly. I'll have a squizz at the parts list and see what you're likely to need.
Pete
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The engine side is fine. Leave it alone. I'll dig the gearbox splitting tools out and get them off to you. You'll need a washer for under the neutral switch too as that is sensitive and has to be torqued 'Just So' to work correctly. I'll have a squizz at the parts list and see what you're likely to need.
Pete
Great, thanks, Pete.
Shaun
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I think the big gouge through the bearing cover casting would bee too risky to leave alone. If it was ultra expensive I would disassemble and weld. But for that money, I would just replace to.
Save the JB Weld for the springs. :cool:
Bummer.
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This is all really interesting. I've only see one clutch lose springs like that, and it was a car back in the 60's.
It's not all that unusual with small block clutches. If you pull the rubber stopper and see what looks like a brazillion prick punch marks, that's what has happened at some time in it's life, or it's happening now. :smiley:
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Right Shaun, I've dug up the 'Gearbox opening tool' as it is somewhat mysteriously called! It's not cheap, even in the U.S. It's a $180 tool, along with the other tools there's the best part of a grand in 'special stuff' so please take care of it. I won't bother sending it by courier as the last bag was gauranteed to get to you in two days and hasn't, as you say it's probably languishing in customs, bastards.that cost me over a hundred beer tokens!
Also you'll have to order in the 'Clutch Box' and the other crap needed which I'll do my best to make a list of what I think you'll need. The tool is in a variety of bits but it's fairly self explanatory. I do suggest you download the manual before you dive in though.
I haven't done an 8V box as they are pretty much unbreakable, I have taken apart a B11 box though and apart from the face cam shock absorber they are essentially the same. If you can be bothered I'm sure there are a lot of folks who would appreciate some pics of it coming apart and going back together.
Pete
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Charlie, yes, interesting is one way to describe it...
Wayne, yep, common sense to just replace the housing. Truly a no-brainer.
Chuck, your description is bang-on. That's exactly what it looks like.
Thanks again, all.
Shaun
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Right Shaun, I've dug up the 'Gearbox opening tool' as it is somewhat mysteriously called! It's not cheap, even in the U.S. It's a $180 tool, along with the other tools there's the best part of a grand in 'special stuff' so please take care of it. I won't bother sending it by courier as the last bag was gauranteed to get to you in two days and hasn't, as you say it's probably languishing in customs, bastards.that cost me over a hundred beer tokens!
Also you'll have to order in the 'Clutch Box' and the other crap needed which I'll do my best to make a list of what I think you'll need. The tool is in a variety of bits but it's fairly self explanatory. I do suggest you download the manual before you dive in though.
I haven't done an 8V box as they are pretty much unbreakable, I have taken apart a B11 box though and apart from the face cam shock absorber they are essentially the same. If you can be bothered I'm sure there are a lot of folks who would appreciate some pics of it coming apart and going back together.
Pete
Hi, Pete.
Will definitely take care of the tools, and really appreciate your lending them to me! No point in sending them by any speedy means. I have to wait for the parts to arrive anyway. I will get everything back to you as quick as I can, and will be making a donation to Medicines Sans Frontiers as you had suggested. Very generous of you to share in this way.
Not sure how I feel about going through a gearbox that even you haven't seen the inside of yet. :undecided: I'm sure I can figure it out, though. Looking at the parts manual, it looks almost like I can lay the gearbox on its back end, lift the "clutch drum" (bellhousing) straight up, put the new one on, and have it all back together. Somehow, I doubt that it's that easy, though. :grin: I'll spend some time reviewing the workshop manual before everything arrives.
Regardless, I would be happy to take some pictures along the way, and will post them here.
Cheers,
Shaun
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The one I had apart I had spread from arsehole to breakfast. I have a feeling that if you only use the front puller as you suggest you'll be able to yank the 'Clutch Case' or whatever they call it and leave the entire rest of the box in the main gearbox case.
If that proves to be correct it'll be a piece of piss. There are a load of 6mm, 8mm head, bolts that hold the cases together that come in from both the bell housing and from the 'Outside' then you can use the front tool which presses on the input shaft to drag the case off the shaft. Then either swap out the bearings or install new ones, new seal and press it back together with threebond between the cases, there is no gasket so DON'T PRY BETWEEN THE MATING SURFACES,
Pete
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Interestingly the 'Gearbox Opening Tool' is not listed in the 1200 engine parts list either for the Stelvio or the Griso, (I haven't checked other models.) but it's the same tool AFAIK.
Anyway, you can see it listed in the 1100 Griso parts list here, it's part #3
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/666/20809279416_5fd0a4b45c.jpg)
If you look at the same parts list for the 1200's it is conspicuously missing!
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/721/20648824379_5cb53e800e.jpg)
Nor is it in any of the other 'Special Tools' lists. For the 8V's! Gotta love 'em, they're a bit 'Special!' themselves.......
Pete
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This is getting interesting :bow:
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Yup! And it's the only way any of us will learn is by going in and hacking it.
That's why I admire what Shaun is doing. Yes his bike was just out of warranty, no it shouldn't of happened, but you know what? It did! So did he come here screaming 'Lawyer Up B*tches! I'm gunna sue somebody! Anybody!'. He just rolled in his shoulders and has got on with it! And if we're lucky we'll all learn some stuff! :thumb:
Pete
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Interestingly the 'Gearbox Opening Tool' is not listed in the 1200 engine parts list either for the Stelvio or the Griso, (I haven't checked other models.) but it's the same tool AFAIK.
Anyway, you can see it listed in the 1100 Griso parts list here, it's part #3
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/666/20809279416_5fd0a4b45c.jpg)
If you look at the same parts list for the 1200's it is conspicuously missing!
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/721/20648824379_5cb53e800e.jpg)
Nor is it in any of the other 'Special Tools' lists. For the 8V's! Gotta love 'em, they're a bit 'Special!' themselves.......
Pete
Interesting. Maybe the gearbox is so reliable that they don't bother mentioning the tool anymore! :laugh:
Shaun
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The one I had apart I had spread from arsehole to breakfast. I have a feeling that if you only use the front puller as you suggest you'll be able to yank the 'Clutch Case' or whatever they call it and leave the entire rest of the box in the main gearbox case.
If that proves to be correct it'll be a piece of piss. There are a load of 6mm, 8mm head, bolts that hold the cases together that come in from both the bell housing and from the 'Outside' then you can use the front tool which presses on the input shaft to drag the case off the shaft. Then either swap out the bearings or install new ones, new seal and press it back together with threebond between the cases, there is no gasket so DON'T PRY BETWEEN THE MATING SURFACES,
Pete
Thanks, Pete. Hopefully, it will be just that simple!
Shaun
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Yup! And it's the only way any of us will learn is by going in and hacking it.
That's why I admire what Shaun is doing. Yes his bike was just out of warranty, no it shouldn't of happened, but you know what? It did! So did he come here screaming 'Lawyer Up B*tches! I'm gunna sue somebody! Anybody!'. He just rolled in his shoulders and has got on with it! And if we're lucky we'll all learn some stuff! :thumb:
Pete
I see it more as a collaborative effort. With the incredible support of the folks here, I feel pretty confident that I can't get through it in one piece. Here's hoping! :boozing:
Edit: special thanks again to Pete, for both the advice given, and for the tools loaned. Nothing would happen without these!
Shaun
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I see it more as a collaborative effort. With the incredible support of the folks here, I feel pretty confident that I can't get through it in one piece. Here's hoping! :boozing:
Edit: special thanks again to Pete, for both the advice given, and for the tools loaned. Nothing would happen without these!
Shaun
the clutch push rod length measuring tools and the clutch push rods probably have my finger prints, sweat and hairs on them :cool:
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:thumb: :popcorn:
I will NEVER whine, whinge or bitch about crabbing my Tonti framed rides again.
Wow. Well done and amazing so far.
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the clutch push rod length measuring tools and the clutch push rods probably have my finger prints, sweat and hairs on them :cool:
Wow, these things get around!! :grin:
Shaun
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:thumb: :popcorn:
I will NEVER whine, whinge or bitch about crabbing my Tonti framed rides again.
Wow. Well done and amazing so far.
Crabbing! I remember crabbing (said with a tear in the eye). Good days, those... :grin:
I'll tell you, I was pretty close to crabbing the frame with a sawzalll! :boozing:
Cheers,
Shaun
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There was some choice language when Ian and I were putting the Stelvio engine back in the frame. That breather plate is an absolute cow!
Pete
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When you guys finally see the light and move up to a small block :evil: :boozing: you'll wonder why you spent so much time working on those suckers.
Small blocks are easy. :wink:
Slow, but easy..
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Slow sounds like a pretty good trade-off, right now! :grin:
Shaun
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Slow sounds like a pretty good trade-off, right now! :grin:
Shaun
Seriously, I feel your pain..
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Thanks, Chuck. While this is certainly challenging, it's also a really good way to get to know the bike After this I really shouldn't be intimidated by any repair that I might need to conduct! I guess I can look at that as a positive? :cool:
Shaun
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When you guys finally see the light and move up to a small block :evil: :boozing: you'll wonder why you spent so much time working on those suckers.
Small blocks are easy. :wink:
Slow, but easy..
This applies to Loops as well... :wink:
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This applies to Loops as well... :wink:
Being that I just came off a u-joint change on my Eldo, I can sort-of agree. It sure is interesting to see the commonalities on bikes separated by nearly 40 years!
Cheers,
Shaun
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This applies to Loops as well... :wink:
You'd be surprised Charlie, a Griso or Breva/Sport is much easier. I'd have to say I'd rather pull the lump out of a Griso than a Loop. Stelvio a are just a right so-and-so to get out and the Norge is OK apart from all the plastic!
Pete
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Funny, one of my thoughts when considering my recent move from Norge to Stelvio is that the Stelvio just had to be easier to work on, right? :rolleyes:
Cheers,
Shaun
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How many miles were on the bike?
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Funny, one of my thoughts when considering my recent move from Norge to Stelvio is that the Stelvio just had to be easier to work on, right? :rolleyes:
Cheers,
Shaun
ROFLMAO yep, sometimes logic will get you!
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How many miles were on the bike?
Not very many and not nearly enough but the bike is, as Shaun stated, out of warranty. Now I know there are people who seem to believe that a warranty should, essentially, be eternal but the simple fact is there does have to be a cut-off point and this machine was outside it.
Shaun has done exactly what I think is right. No pissing and moaning! Just hook in and fix it. If anything is going to piss me off its people moaning that 'The Factory' or 'The Dealer' should look after it. It's out of bloody warranty! Suck it up!
Pete
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Yep, I'd rather do it myself anyway,especially with the warranty out. When I bought a new bike I did my own warranty work, sometimes I would ask for a part to be paid for but the labor was mine. My question of the day : is there a heavy duty version of the clutch assembly ? Are there different versions? The reason I ask this is because on the older stuff I was able to cure my clutch troubles by going to a ten spring clutch. Shaun thanks for posting the pictures, it's new territory for me. :popcorn:
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Several part number supercesions for the clutch. Only a short run in 2012 seem to have this problem.
Latest 'Universal' clutch for 8V's is the unit from the Cali 14 which has a much nicer diaphragm than the earlier units and seems bulletproof.
Pete
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Shaun has done exactly what I think is right. No pissing and moaning! Just hook in and fix it. If anything is going to piss me off its people moaning that 'The Factory' or 'The Dealer' should look after it. It's out of bloody warranty! Suck it up!
I'm well impressed with Shaun's pragmatic attitude. It's just a machine and machine's break. No shrieking meltdown here like I've seen in some threads on this forum.
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Yeah Sean,
Well done so far. Great attitude against all odds and humility to go with it.
Hope the rest goes well for you, difficult job, but with the good guys rooting for yer it will work out.
I know what you mean about photos once it's fixed. I get a bit superstitious like that too if it's a first time.
Looking forward to the conclusion of this thread and your final happiness.
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Thanks, folks. I'll do my best to get it back together and operational again, documenting things as I go, with the intent of helping others in future. Truly, if I can make it through this with the help of the group, anyone can. It might take a bit of time to get it finished, as I am waiting for parts, and have some upcomg travel, but I will be sure to capture the outcome here.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Not very many and not nearly enough but the bike is, as Shaun stated, out of warranty. Now I know there are people who seem to believe that a warranty should, essentially, be eternal but the simple fact is there does have to be a cut-off point and this machine was outside it.
Shaun has done exactly what I think is right. No pissing and moaning! Just hook in and fix it. If anything is going to piss me off its people moaning that 'The Factory' or 'The Dealer' should look after it. It's out of bloody warranty! Suck it up!
Pete
No pissing or moaning, just curiosity since it seems like a rather serious failure. The question was just asked to keep a mental note as miles pile up so that should something remotely similar seem to take place, perhaps delve deeper and save some trouble. I learned something through this thread and like the owner, might have passed something like this off as not so serious, something I wouldn't do now having the information.
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Hi, folks.
The bike currently has 29,398 kms or 18,267 miles.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Hi, folks.
Just back from some travel, and am getting back into my clutch repair. Parts came in just before I went away, and there was an interesting drawing included in the box:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/2015-09-14-0001%20Med_zpswd39q3ri.jpg)
This assembly in the newest version that is from the Cal 14, and has a part number of 2A000107, not 2A000108, as indicated on the drawing. I can't find the 108 number doing an internet search, but can only assume that it is a very similar clutch package, and that this drawing apples equally to this one.
Bottom line is that it seems strange to not use a locking device on the flywheel bolts, but it seems pretty clear that the factory is specifying this. I will certainly use thread locker regardless, so I sure hope it will stay on there!
Never boring, working on Guzzis! :violent1:
Cheers,
Shaun
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Not to worry. :smiley:
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Well, it's fairly clear innit? :laugh:
I honestly can't remember if the ones I've done had washers or not? Certainly the bolts had a flange under the head to spread the load. It could just be that if a washer is used the heads of the bolts foul the plate or some such. Who knows? Definitely no washer though. I always use a drop of 243 on these.
Pete
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Well, it's fairly clear innit? :laugh:
I honestly can't remember if the ones I've done had washers or not? Certainly the bolts had a flange under the head to spread the load. It could just be that if a washer is used the heads of the bolts foul the plate or some such. Who knows? Definitely no washer though. I always use a drop of 243 on these.
Pete
Yep, clear as mud! :grin:
Well, the flywheel is on, and I hope that I have it oriented correctly. They keep mentioning a "reference", but don't really tell you what the "reference" looks like on this one. There was a dab of blue-green paint on the back of the "clutch disc" (which is NOT the friction disk), so I assumed that this was the "reference". Not very clear at all, though, and it does not align exactly with one of the bolt holes, so it doesn't end up aligned perfectly with the crankpin. If anyone has a more clear understanding of this, please do feel free to offer advice!
The outer piece, which I believe they call the pressure plate has a pretty clear reference mark, so I should be good there.
Next, I need to figure out how to take the clutch pushrod out so I can measure for the proper length of rod. Probably should change out the "clutch drum" (bellhousing) first, though.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Hi, folks.
The bike currently has 29,398 kms or 18,267 miles.
Cheers,
Shaun
At that mileage they should be barely broken in, not fairly broken down.
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At that mileage they should be barely broken in, not fairly broken down.
Agreed, but there is a known issue with friction discs on Stelvios produced around the time mine was. Unfortunate, but it is what it is.
Shaun
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Okay, have got back into the repair finally, after getting (somewhat) caught up at work, and beginning to recover from jetlag. :coffee: Unfortunately, I've now come to a few realizations:
1. I missed ordering a part that I need, so will get that ordered tomorrow. :embarrassed:
2. Pete's gearbox tools arrived early this week (thanks Pete), and in studying them, it seems that "Plan A" might not work. I had hoped to remove only the bellhousing from the gearbox, leaving everything else intact. Unfortunately, the pullers are designed to remove the rear of the gearbox, leaving all the shafts attached to, you guessed it, the bellhousing! So, it looks like the unit will be coming right apart, but I am hopeful that I can remove all the guts from the old bellhousing, and simply move them all together to the new one. the manual suggests using rubber bands to keep the whole mess together as you pull it out, so that is the tactic I am planning to use.
3. It's a really good thing that I decided to replace the bellhousing. Looking at the new one, I can see that the flying shrapnel had milled a groove almost completely through the boss supporting one of the main shafts. This really needed to be replaced, which strangely makes me happy. At least I haven't gone to all this trouble/expense unnecessarily. :thumb:
4. I might have been smarter to purchase a used gearbox. Given that these things are known to be bulletproof, that would likely have been an easier thing to do, and the cost wouldn't have been much higher. Oh, well, live and learn.
Last item is a question for the group. Pete was kind enough to lend me his clutch rod depth checking tool, and when used now, it shows that the correct length of rod is already in there. However, I am assuming that I should wait until I have the gearbox reassembled with the new bellhousing, and then check it again? It seems to me that there really shouldn't be a significant variance in the dimensions of the two bellhousings, but it probably makes sense to confirm once the final parts are in place. Does this make good sense?
Tune in again next week, for an exciting new episode of "As the Stelvio Explodes".
Cheers,
Shaun
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I'd be very surprised if the new bell housing would make a difference but the new clutch and flywheel might require a different rod.
When you pull the box to bits take lots of pics please. As I've said I've only ever had one Nuovo Six Speed apart and don't remember a lot about it. I, and I'm sure others, would appreciate a photographic record.
Pete
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I'd be very surprised if the new bell housing would make a difference but the new clutch and flywheel might require a different rod.
When you pull the box to bits take lots of pics please. As I've said I've only ever had one Nuovo Six Speed apart and don't remember a lot about it. I, and I'm sure others, would appreciate a photographic record.
Pete
Thanks, Pete. I have used the tool with the new clutch, and the current rod (186mm, I believe) is a perfect fit.
I will definitely take lots of pics. Let's just hope it all goes back together nicely! :grin:
Cheers,
Shaun
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Just take your time, don't try and rush it and remember, if it isn't easy you're probably doing something wrong! :thumb:
Pete
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Just take your time, don't try and rush it and remember, if it isn't easy you're probably doing something wrong! :thumb:
Pete
Wow, that's what my wife always says! :wink: :grin:
Shaun
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Ba dum- tsssss
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Still waiting for parts to arrive (for all my projects :undecided:), so I just took on a small job this weekend. Taking Phang's advice, I created a small cover from 1/8" aluminum plate to replace the thick plastic cover that was constantly fouling the frame when the engine was coming out.
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1506%20Med_zps57esknbr.jpg)
Not exactly a work of art, but I wasn't too worried about aesthetics, and didn't spent too much time on it. I think it will work fine.
Those following along will recall that we were not able to get the engine out until we removed the plastic cover (which was NOT easy to access). I'm sure there is a way, but we couldn't find it, and neither could Phang. This cover creates a great deal of extra space in this area, so should allow the engine to go back in with the cover in place.
The parts should be in this week, so I hope to complete the clutch next weekend.
Cheers,
Shaun
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I'm happy to say that the parts have arrived, so I'm going at the gearbox this weekend.
Gearbox on the workbench:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1421_zpstuvhu6ao.jpg)
New bellhousing (A.K.A. Clutch Cover, Clutch Basket, Clutch Drum, etc.):
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1422_zpsmz8u2sei.jpg)
Remove neutral sensor:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1423_zpswkrjkrey.jpg)
Remove 5 external and 9 internal bolts (sorry, no pictures). Bolts inside the bellhousing were severely beaten by the shrapnel of the clutch, but all came out with the use of a 6-point socket.
Attach first puller (thanks, Pete!):
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1424_zps0yqxwr7m.jpg)
Attach second puller (thanks again, Pete!):
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1426_zps5ywoewp5.jpg)
Both pullers, different angle:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1429_zpsnoqvisaj.jpg)
Start turning pullers, and...
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1427_zps5ftqpwbq.jpg)
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1428_zpsrlrqbxl7.jpg)
Gearbox case removed (and yes, I did "collect the washer":
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1430_zpsb6ollixn.jpg)
The guts (Here there be dragons!):
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1431_zpsf0b26fcr.jpg)
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1432_zpsmbeb6kix.jpg)
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/IMG_1433_zpsuwtwdoql.jpg)
That's it for tonight as I have some other things to attend to. I'll get back to it in the morning when I'm fresh. Wish me luck!
Stupid question: One of the bearings is a sealed type, but I assume that there is no need to grease any of these with all that gear oil splashing around, right? Told you it was a stupid question! :boozing:
Cheers,
Shaun
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By the way, a little trivia: Next time your Ducati-riding friends start waxing poetic about desmodromic, you can show them up by honestly stating that your CARC Guzzi has exaclty the same thing!
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/Desmo_zpstwhwncmp.jpg)
:azn:
Cheers,
Shaun
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I assume the drum detent has rollers on it. Since they shift easier than the old 5 speeds with a plunger.
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"Desmodromic drum"... I like that name.
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I assume the drum detent has rollers on it. Since they shift easier than the old 5 speeds with a plunger.
Yes, that shaft does have roller bearings. The whole mechanism is pretty interesting.
Shaun
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Quite the design evolution form the original 5 speed Loop gear box, looks a little more complicated to disassemble!
Hope its back together soon for you.
Cheers
Jim
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Thanks, Jim.
I have it over at a friend's shop now as he is pressing in the bearings for me. I hope to get it back shortly and get it back together for reassembly.
Cheers,
Shaun
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One interesting question: Three of the four bearings supplied are sealed, and my friend says that it is quite possible that one side needs to remain open to allow oil flow. Apparently, that could be either the inside or outside, depending upon the design. He works mostly on Japanese bikes, so is not familiar with Guzzi and might need to pull out the old ones to check. Does anyone know how they are normally set up?
Thanks,
Shaun
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I haven't been inside a 1200 six speed but if it's identical in most ways to the 1100 box then most of the shaft bearings will be sealed.
No need to grease anything. Just put some yak fat in it when it goes back together and ride.
Pete
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I haven't been inside a 1200 six speed but if it's identical in most ways to the 1100 box then most of the shaft bearings will be sealed.
No need to grease anything. Just put some yak fat in it when it goes back together and ride.
Pete
Yak fat... yak fat... Ah, here it is!!
Thanks, Pete.
Shaun
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Okay, time for an update. I'm happy to report that the bellhousing has been swapped, and that everything seems to be working properly.
Before:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1460%20Med_zpsrxcfhum3.jpg)
After:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1510_zpsr0odzq6v.jpg)
Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of pictures to add to what I have already posted, but will list some lessons learned. The reason for this is that my friend, the motorcycle mechanic, ended up swapping the shafts over. I took the bearings and the new bellhousing to him so he could press them in for me, and he then asked for the old bellhousing for reference. He wanted to confirm if the sealed bearing needed to remain sealed, or if they should be opened on one side, the other, or both (he has apparently seen all these combinations before). In order to check each bearing, he pulled all the shafts, removed each bearing to check, and found that all the sealed bearings were to remain sealed (you were correct, Pete). In any case, because he had everything out, he just moved the shafts over for me, and when I arrived, we just reassembled the cases together. This took a little more persuading that I had expected, but with much patience, along with persistent taps with a plastic hammer (away from all machined surfaces), everything went back together nicely. He used a Suzuki sealant that he has had a lot of success with.
Upon arrival back home, I reconnected the shift arm and ran up and down through the gears with no apparent issues.
Points of potential interest:
- As mentioned, three of the four bearings on the front case are sealed, and should remain that way.
- The heads on all the bolts within the bellhousing were beaten up by the flying shrapnel. All were replaced.
- Although the shrapnel in the bellhousing had machined a 5mm channel in the shaft bosses, my friend still felt the there was a lot of material left, and that the part was likely still completely serviceable as it was.
- He was very impressed with how stout the Guzzi gearbox was. He felt that it was way over-engineered (in a good way), and that it was understandable why these have a reputation for being bulletproof.
- The manual shows all the shafts coming out together after the preselector shaft is removed, but he advised that this did not work in this case. He said that what did work was to remove the clutch shaft last, and install it first. The primary and driven shafts came out before, and went in after the clutch shaft (as did the desmo drum).
Hope this is of some help to others, and apologies for not having any additional pictures of the individual shafts, etc.
Next I am completing the clutch install, mating the gearbox to the engine, and reinstalling the pair into the frame. I would have had the clutch completed already, but the centering tool that Pete loaned me needs a couple of somewhat unusual bolts (M7 1.0 x 50mm) in order to compress the clutch diaphragm. I'm hoping to get those at the bolt place tomorrow morning, and should then be able to proceed. What's interesting is that I had thought this tool would be used to center the friction disc, but that's not what it is used for. It is actually used to center the little "pressure plate" that the clutch rod presses on, and which applies force to the clutch diaphragm (number 8 in the following diagram).
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/Pressure%20Plate_zpskndhd8np.jpg)
What's odd is that this part already seems to be very well-located by three extended fingers on the diaphragm. Although it's not evident, there much be a good reason for using the tool, or they likely wouldn't have created it.
Hopefully, I'll have everything back together tomorrow night, and the engine back in the frame sometime this week. It will probably be another couple of weeks before I get the bike running again, though, as I am going to pick up another Eldo next weekend.
Pete, I should be able to get all the tools on their way back to you within the next couple of days. Thanks again for allowing me to borrow them!
Cheers,
Shaun
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Okay, time for another update. I didn't get a chance to work on the Stelvio over the Canadian Thanksgiving weekend, as I was on a trip down to the Portland, Maine, area to pick up my next project:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1453_zpssf4y6hvk.jpg)
I have a separate thread going on that one, in case anyone is interested: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=79503.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=79503.0)
However, I did get a chance to work on the Stelvio a bit last week, and then again tonight. First, I got the clutch back together:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1511%20Med_zpshdcpfo6j.jpg)
Next was to mate the gearbox to the engine, at which point I remembered something that I thought others would find interesting. For those who follow Gregory Bender's great website (thisoldtractor.com (http://thisoldtractor.com)), you might recall seeing a discussion about the use of Schnoor lockwashers on aluminum parts (not recommended). So, imagine my surprise when I separated the gearbox from the engine and found these washers in place!!
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1512%20Med_zpsmpycelj1.jpg)
You can clearly see that the washers were in place, and it is interesting that Guzzi chose to use them in this way. I put new Schnoor washers in upon reassembly.
Next up was putting the engine back in the frame, which is something my friend Dom helped with. I really couldn't have done it without him, and I owe him more than a few beers for all the help he has been during this project! Here's the end result:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1532%20Med_zpsq7bp7ogz.jpg)
Finally, the engine is back in the frame, and I will be working on reassembly this weekend. Will keep this thread updated.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Fabulous Shaun - glad to hear the Stelvio is in the recovery room :thumb:
Nick
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Attaboy! Way to suck it up and get it done.. :thumb:
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Well done Shaun!
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/wp-ag/wp-content/uploads/sites/72/2015/05/KimJongUnClapping.gif)
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Thanks, gentlemen! Now I just have to remember where everything goes!!
:shocked:
Cheers,
Shaun
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Okay, somewhat overdue for an update.
I spent a significant amount of time last weekend, and a bit of time each evening this week getting the bike back together.
Throttle bodies and engine sensors connected:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1539%20Med_zps82dpc2vv.jpg)
Oil cooler and I-don't-want-to-crash bars attached:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1546%20Med_zpsyi0oxahw.jpg)
Shock and swingarm going in. Sorry for the dirt -- I had just come back from a significant ride to/from the Western New York Rally when the clutch gave up and jammed the starter.
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1548%20Med_zpsfzf6fowy.jpg)
No cracks (yet). :thumb: :
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1558%20Med_zpsph3yrjov.jpg)
Exhaust on:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1561%20Med_zpswjfexkum.jpg)
Tank on. If you look carefully, you can see a CARC, a Loop, a Tonti and a spiney (covered) in this photo:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1575%20Med_zpsccbemiq8.jpg)
And (drum roll please), here we are after the successful test ride, this evening!
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1581%20Med_zps6biw9hdd.jpg)
Once I got everything back together, and after getting fuel pressure back up, the bike fired immediately. Everything seemed to work well, so I took it for a short ride this evening, and the only thing that wasn't expected was that the headlights wouldn't work. All other lights work, as do the auxiliary units, so I am expecting something possibly with the headlight relay. I'll check on that tomorrow, and go for a bit longer ride. Once I get the lighting sorted, I'll put the rest of the bodywork and racks back on.
More to come!
Cheers,
Shaun
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Nice work Shaun,
that was a big and complex job. :bow:
Cheers
Jim
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You're a braver man than I am. :bow: :bow:
Nick
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We should make a badge/patch and award to those who have done this!
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Well, that was easy, wasn't it? :smiley: Attaboy.. :thumb:
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It's an absolute prick of a job but at the end of the day it's just nuts and bolts. It's this sort of 'Bugger it! Let's get it done' attitude that will make ownership of anything much more enjoyable. Far better than bleating and looking for someone to blame.
Oh, the tools are back. Haven't unpacked them yet. Thanks.
Pete
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Thanks for taking the extra time posting the pics and describing what you were doing, I appreciate that!
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Thanks, everyone. Yes, it is a large job, with some frustrating bits and pieces that are challenging to get to. The biggest challenge for me was finding the time to get at it, but in the end, I am really glad that I decided to do the work myself. I have really gotten to know the bike, and will feel comfortable doing pretty much anything on it in future.
John, I'm glad the pictures were helpful. I've never been very good at remembering to take pictures at the time, and still had some lapses here, but I am trying to get better at it.
Pete, thanks again for all your help, advice, and willingness to loan tools to someone you don't know, half a world away. I couldn't have done it without all your help!
Special thanks, also, to Wayne, Phang and others who took the time to offer invaluable advice. In particular, Wayne's picture helped me visualize what my social calendar was going to look like for the next several weeks :whip2:, and Phang's idea for replacing that little access plate with aluminum and countersunk bolts was brilliant. That made things MUCH easier going back in.
I should also mention that Piaggio finally did agree to cover the parts, which was greatly appreciated. I also appreciate that my dealer continued to be persistent with them, as I continued to bug him over several weeks. Certainly, the bike was off warranty, so I couldn't have any expectation. However, it was *just* off warranty, and had I lived in a warmer part of Canada, I would have been riding a couple of months earlier in the year. Also, this appears to be a known fault with bikes in this production range, and I believe there is a flaw with a small run of friction discs. Regardless, kudos to Piaggio for stepping up and covering the parts under goodwill.
Finally, sincere thanks to Luap and the mods for hosting and moderating this excellent forum. The information here is priceless, as are the participants.
All's well that ends well? I hope so! I'm about to go out and clean the bike up, and then see if I can figure out the issue with the lights.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Phang's idea for replacing that little access plate with aluminum and countersunk bolts was brilliant. That made things MUCH easier going back in.
So that thin plate clears the frame?
That is good to hear, should I need to go back in there.
I still want to see how the factory gets the engine up in the frame with the plastic block on there.
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Hi, Wayne.
Yes, the plate provides several mm more space, and clears the frame without issue. As mentioned previously, I'm sure it's possible with the plastic cover in place, but not easy. The other notable item that causes clearance issues is the oil cooler. By messing with the routing of the lines temporarily while the engine was going in, I was able to create much more space.
Cheers.
Shaun
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We should make a badge/patch and award to those who have done this!
One of you smart guys come up with a virtual patch that we can award . Pennie , here is your chance to shine buddy .
Until then
Attaboy Shaun !
Dusty
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Thanks, Dusty!
By the way, headlights are now working. Found that the bike was not charging, so pulled the main fuse (and those next to it) and confirmed continuity. Cleaned them up a bit with some De-Oxit and she is now right as rain. I suspect I had just jostled something loose is all my ham-fisted mechanic-ing. :boozing:
Cheers,
Shaun
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Oh, one other thought. Pete, you were right on about using the new 1400 California clutch setup. The action is beautiful on this clutch! It's hard to recall exactly what the other one was like, but I'm sure it didn't feel this smooth and light. As discussed, I did end up using the shortest pushrod based upon the reading on the depth tool, but I possibly could have gone one up, without issue (the measurement was right near the boundary between the two). The clutch works fine, and does release completely, but does so fairly close to the grip. It might be better to move it out slightly, and I might order the next pushrod, one day, if I am feeling ambitious. Keep in mind, of course, that I have only ridden a very short distance, so will make sure a change is needed before I do anything.
This might be valuable to those who have expressed concern about their clutch engagement point being out towards the end of travel (my Norge was like this). If you want to change this, putting in a different length of pushrod is not an overly difficult job
Cheers,
Shaun
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Well, spent the better part of the day cleaning and working on the Stelvio. Reinstalled the skid plate and luggage racks (PITA!), did a valve adjustment, throttle body balance, reset TPS, set CO Trim, etc. It's as ready as it possibly can be for the ride tomorrow. :bike-037:
(http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u553/smdl/SAM_1586%20Med_zpsbbcu3bec.jpg)
The ride will be about 400KM (~240 miles), which is enough to give it a good test, but not so much that I outdistance the maximum tow distance of my CAA plan!
Wish me luck!!
Cheers,
Shaun
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This might be valuable to those who have expressed concern about their clutch engagement point being out towards the end of travel (my Norge was like this). If you want to change this, putting in a different length of pushrod is not an overly difficult job
I would think that the engagement point would be set at the master cylinder.
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Maybe so -- will need to consider that. Perhaps the different pushrod lengths just allow you to make certain that the slave has sufficient travel?
Shaun
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Good luck today Shaun - all will be fine. Trust the force :tongue:
Nick
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Good luck today Shaun - all will be fine. Trust the force :tongue:
Nick
Thanks, Nick. I certainly needed good luck, today, and only sort-of got it.
First, the good news: The bike ran great! Clutch was sweet, gearbox was uncannily quiet and snickety! I was thrilled... right up until I wasn't thrilled anymore.
Bad news: About 1.5 hours into the ride, I thought back to how the lights had not been working when I first put the bike back together. I started finding myself really wanting to be able to check to see if the lights were on at that moment, but I was riding with a friend, and couldn't easily stop. Then, a few minutes later, I started noticing a bit of weirdness. The ABS light came on briefly and then went off, and then the bike started to run really roughly. I knew immediately that it was related to the lighting/charging problem, and as engine power started failing, I quickly shut off electrical stuff. Auxiliary lights, GPS, heated grips. etc. That immediately made a difference, confirming my assumptions, and I was able to get enough engine power back to catch up to my friend, take the next exit, and pull into a gas station. However, the moment I shut the bike off, it was dead. Dash would light up, but there was not enough juice to crank the starter. Voltmeter showed 11.5v. I proceeded to pull off the ride side cover and check the fuses. They were fine, as were all visible connections, etc., so I decided it was time to call CAA.
Upon arriving home, I re-checked all the obvious stuff, and it was clear that the bike was not charging at all. So, I decided to tear into it, and dig deep to find out what I did wrong. So, off came the seats, side cover, lower fairing pods and tank (why is it ALWAYS almost full when it needs to come off??). I was pretty sure that I must have forgotten to tighten the alternator connections, or something equally dumb, but found them to be well seated and tight. I checked the belt to see if maybe it had suffered a failure, but it was still happily spinning around. So, I went looking for the auxiliary fuses, and decided to re-seat all the relays while under there. All of a sudden, the bike started charging perfectly! So, it seems that this is/was a relay problem, which is something that I hadn't even touched! :violent1:
I'm going to go pull all the relays, shoot them with De=Oxit, and re-seat them properly. Then, I will put the bodywork back on again, hopefully for the last time for a while.
Hoping that's all it was, and very chuffed that the bike did so well, otherwise.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Thanks, Nick. I certainly needed good luck, today, and only sort-of got it.
First, the good news: The bike ran great! Clutch was sweet, gearbox was uncannily quiet and snickety! I was thrilled... right up until I wasn't thrilled anymore.
Bad news: About 1.5 hours into the ride, I thought back to how the lights had not been working when I first put the bike back together. I started finding myself really wanting to be able to check to see if the lights were on at that moment, but I was riding with a friend, and couldn't easily stop. Then, a few minutes later, I started noticing a bit of weirdness. The ABS light came on briefly and then went off, and then the bike started to run really roughly. I knew immediately that it was related to the lighting/charging problem, and as engine power started failing, I quickly shut off electrical stuff. Auxiliary lights, GPS, heated grips. etc. That immediately made a difference, confirming my assumptions, and I was able to get enough engine power back to catch up to my friend, take the next exit, and pull into a gas station. However, the moment I shut the bike off, it was dead. Dash would light up, but there was not enough juice to crank the starter. Voltmeter showed 11.5v. I proceeded to pull off the ride side cover and check the fuses. They were fine, as were all visible connections, etc., so I decided it was time to call CAA.
Upon arriving home, I re-checked all the obvious stuff, and it was clear that the bike was not charging at all. So, I decided to tear into it, and dig deep to find out what I did wrong. So, off came the seats, side cover, lower fairing pods and tank (why is it ALWAYS almost full when it needs to come off??). I was pretty sure that I must have forgotten to tighten the alternator connections, or something equally dumb, but found them to be well seated and tight. I checked the belt to see if maybe it had suffered a failure, but it was still happily spinning around. So, I went looking for the auxiliary fuses, and decided to re-seat all the relays while under there. All of a sudden, the bike started charging perfectly! So, it seems that this is/was a relay problem, which is something that I hadn't even touched! :violent1:
I'm going to go pull all the relays, shoot them with De=Oxit, and re-seat them properly. Then, I will put the bodywork back on again, hopefully for the last time for a while.
Hoping that's all it was, and very chuffed that the bike did so well, otherwise.
Cheers,
Shaun
Well Shaun............GR EAT and........too bad and..............co ngratulations...... .........and despite the ordeal, you even remembered the adverb. :bow: :thumb:
Nick
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Thanks, Nick.
Well, I cleaned up the relay, put it back in, and everything seems to be 100%. I'm going to pick up a few spare relays (4-pin, 5-pin and 5-pin with diode to protect the ECU) to carry, and I'll know to check on that area if I am having similar issues in future.
Thanks are due to Peter Youngblood (and a few others), who helped me understand what each relay does in this post:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=72525.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=72525.0)
Folks, I think that's it! Unless any additional relevant information comes up, I'm going to consider this issue closed. Again, sincere thanks to everyone who unselfishly contributed knowledge, advice and tools. I couldn't have done this without all your help!
Cheers,
Shaun
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So, I'm resurrecting this old topic, and thanks Shaun for the great pictures and narration.
My 2014 Stelvio puked on me last fall in Southern California, I found a donor drivetrain from a wrecked 2015 Norge. One thing of interest I have found is that port that you fabbed the new piece up for is the same on my Stelvio, but this Norge has a much thinner plate in the same place.
Thanks again for the tip to this thread and the great write up.
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So, I'm resurrecting this old topic, and thanks Shaun for the great pictures and narration.
My 2014 Stelvio puked on me last fall in Southern California, I found a donor drivetrain from a wrecked 2015 Norge. One thing of interest I have found is that port that you fabbed the new piece up for is the same on my Stelvio, but this Norge has a much thinner plate in the same place.
Thanks again for the tip to this thread and the great write up.
Glad my post continues to be helpful! Best of luck getting your Stelvio sorted.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Hi Shaun,
This morning I was reading your post to look at the photos, and see how a clutch job on a Stelvio is completed. I just purchased my own 2012 Stelvio yesterday. Also, last week I completed a clutch replacement for my Cali II, and I thought that I would prepare myself for some Stelvio maintenance. :thumb:
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Hi, Peter. Great to hear from you!
Were you lucky with your Stelvio in that it was factory rollerized like mine? Or, if not, has that work has already been done?
Clutch on a Stelvio is really not a fun job, but is a LOT easier if you take off that little cover on the left side of the timing cover. Still a tight squeeze, but much easier then.
Let us know how it goes!
Cheers,
Shaun
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Shaun. First well done on the clutch job and the post.
I had a similar clucth failure in 2017 on my 2012 Stelvio about 38000km, although kept running until I did a replacement at 50000km. (I had a dealer do it), with the 1400 clutch assembly.
(Purchased from TLM and shipped to Australia far cheaper than ordring in Australia)
I am aware of a few others who have also had similar clutch failures, including a chap also in Brisbane/Australia (as I was at the time, although I bought my bike in IOM).
https://youtu.be/NKMSwBLMLYA (https://youtu.be/NKMSwBLMLYA)
(https://i.ibb.co/DCwcrPd/hqdefault.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DCwcrPd)
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Arrrrgh! Zombie thread alert! :grin:
My Stelvio is a 2012 and one of the advantages of slotting the 1400 into it was I got rid of the dubious 2012 clutch and got the lovely ‘Light Pull’ 1400 clutch.
Pete
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Shaun. First well done on the clutch job and the post.
I had a similar clucth failure in 2017 on my 2012 Stelvio about 38000km, although kept running until I did a replacement at 50000km. (I had a dealer do it), with the 1400 clutch assembly.
(Purchased from TLM and shipped to Australia far cheaper than ordring in Australia)
I am aware of a few others who have also had similar clutch failures, including a chap also in Brisbane/Australia (as I was at the time, although I bought my bike in IOM).
https://youtu.be/NKMSwBLMLYA (https://youtu.be/NKMSwBLMLYA)
(https://i.ibb.co/DCwcrPd/hqdefault.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DCwcrPd)
Thanks! This seems like a long time ago now, but the work went well (thanks to Pete, Phang and Wayne!), and I'm happy to say that I have about 25,000 trouble-free KMs on the new clutch.
I'm really surprised that you were able to keep running the bike so long after the initial failure! Mine kept shedding pieces of the springs, wreaking havoc on the starter. Anyway, glad to hear that you got it sorted before it caused too much trouble for you.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Arrrrgh! Zombie thread alert! :grin:
My Stelvio is a 2012 and one of the advantages of slotting the 1400 into it was I got rid of the dubious 2012 clutch and got the lovely ‘Light Pull’ 1400 clutch.
Pete
:thumb:
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So, I have to ask: are all the 2012 model year CARC bikes a clutch spring time bomb?
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So, I have to ask: are all the 2012 model year CARC bikes a clutch spring time bomb?
No, it seems there was a small batch of rotten plates, most if not all of them went in Stelvios. By no means are all 2012's time bombs. Mine still had its original clutch when I swapped in the 1400 motor and it was fine. Sure it had the 'Stelvio Groan' but nothing ever went wrong with it and it had done 110,000Km plus.
The thing to worry about more is whether the bike was built before the change to roller tappets!
Pete
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Good to know. I rollerized my 12 Griso some time back, so no worries there.
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No, it seems there was a small batch of rotten plates, most if not all of them went in Stelvios. By no means are all 2012's time bombs. Mine still had its original clutch when I swapped in the 1400 motor and it was fine. Sure it had the 'Stelvio Groan' but nothing ever went wrong with it and it had done 110,000Km plus.
The thing to worry about more is whether the bike was built before the change to roller tappets!
Pete
Did 1400 get sussed ? Last bit I saw was breathing issue, maybe I missed the fix ?
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Its a work in progress. Other builders of larger capacity 8V's are having problems too. The issue is almost certainly a matter of crankcase volume. Once my Stelvio is mapped correctly we'll find if the 1400 bottom end architecture helps address the problem. My own feeling is that taking the engine out that much is really pushing the friendship but I have no conclusive evidence yet.
Pete
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So this one is 1400 engine with 1200 heads ? Hadn’t realised, makes sense to try.
But do std 1400’s have problems if ridden like stolen ?
Low volume cases with good valve system should work, like high revving big singles, or more direct comparo Ducati 1298 or whatever current big twin is, Triumph parallel twin even bigger, 1800 ?
If this works, the difference is interesting, post results please
Its a work in progress. Other builders of larger capacity 8V's are having problems too. The issue is almost certainly a matter of crankcase volume. Once my Stelvio is mapped correctly we'll find if the 1400 bottom end architecture helps address the problem. My own feeling is that taking the engine out that much is really pushing the friendship but I have no conclusive evidence yet.
Pete
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1400's are prone to it too, although less so if thrashed mercilessly from new. What I'll be very interested in is how much difference going to the 1400 sump and plumbing makes.
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1400's are prone to it too, although less so if thrashed mercilessly from new.
There is a clue in that, unlikely to be coincidence
Leak down test between a goodie and a baddlie ?
-
Nope.
-
SMDL, There is a way to not have to drop the transmission or abuse a good dog. Just ride the second bike and forget about the troublesome one.
You did say that it was reliable
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SMDL, There is a way to not have to drop the transmission or abuse a good dog. Just ride the second bike and forget about the troublesome one.
You did say that it was reliable
Maybe so, Jim. However, in this unique case, a little strong persuasion has resulted in a well-behaved partner in crime. A little harrowing, but all worth it in the end.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but I'm going through this job right now. Found pieces of the friction plate spring on the starter and starter well. Have the swing arm, exhaust and crash bars off. For some goofy reason I didn't take the tank of earlier so that comes off today along with much more.
Thanks for the details along your project Shaun. I'm hoping I can drop the engine this weekend.
Did you leave the survive in place with the throttle bodies attached? I'm wondering how I gain access to the motor mounts in the cylinder heads.
Rich
2013 Stelvio
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Are you pulling apart a Stelvio?
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Are you pulling apart a Stelvio?
Yes - 2013 that seems to have thrown a friction plate spring on my way to work.
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Yes, they seem to come apart between 35-45'000mi, some not all, I've done 3 so far. Just a lot to take apart & put back. Got to take block breather plate off L/H front before it'll come out. Rest is basic Guzzi. Replacement is Cali14 clutch, better finger springs. Has to come completely out.
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You aren't kidding that there is a lot of taking apart! The engine is completely removed and I pulled the transmission off. Issue confirmed... Spring is thrown. Looks like a second one was getting ready to join it.
I'll order up the parts today and cross my fingers I can get it all back together. On the plus side, I've finally gotten around to doing I really good job cleaning the throttle bodies.
(https://i.ibb.co/db9874x/d517473001371076ef5270e58edfb508406b8e2a-14.jpg) (https://ibb.co/db9874x)
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Looks pretty similar, but, they have no problem----------
(https://i.ibb.co/KXDg2gp/clutch1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KXDg2gp)
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You've done it 3 times already??? On the same bike? Do the Cali 1400 clutch springs go out as well?
Just ordered up the clutch kit. Going to replace the alternator belt while the engine is out. Think I am at 60k miles.
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3 different bikes, 1 under warranty. 1400 clutch has better stuff and is the only one you can get now. Just did a 11 Stelvio over winter. I would replace the breather hoses that connect to the rear cam cap while everything is apart, they go way up front to under steering stem.
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I would replace the breather hoses that connect to the rear cam cap while everything is apart, they go way up front to under steering stem.
Are you referring to the ones that go from the blow-by box to the cylinder ports near the valve covers? Mine seemed fine, but I need to order a few other parts from mgcycle so I could see if they have them.
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Yes, they crack right by the cap, I used hose from auto parts.
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WARider, sincere apologies for the late reply. Seems like you are making good progress, and Steve is providing much more expertise than I ever could. However, if there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.
As an aside, I'm happy to report that the Cal 1400 clutch continues to work perfectly some 22,000 kms later.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Just curious and asking without prejudice.
What is the major or even mine differences between this clutch/pressure plate and most all the other major brands that this issue is mostly non existent?
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Just curious and asking within prejudice.
What is the major or even mine differences between this clutch/pressure plate and most all the other major brands that this issue is mostly non existent?
My understanding is that this was related to a bad batch of clutches, and that the newer design doesn't have this problem.
That's all I know.
Cheers,
Shaun
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My understanding is that this was related to a bad batch of clutches, and that the newer design doesn't have this problem.
I sure hope you are right Shaun. Looking forward to many miles of fun without having to drop the engine to replace another clutch plate.
Have all the parts in hand now and will be starting reassembly on Friday. Wish me luck that I don't forget to connect up something requiring major disassembly again.
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Looks like I may have clutch issues....clutch was not disengaging fully, on a ride today..then made a weird sort of ping noise and now works normally...I'm thinking a spring has dislodged. I am about 100km form home so will be a slow gentle ride then investigate further. Anyone have experience on the symptoms of a spring falling out?
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Looks like I may have clutch issues....clutch was not disengaging fully, on a ride today..then made a weird sort of ping noise and now works normally...I'm thinking a spring has dislodged. I am about 100km form home so will be a slow gentle ride then investigate further. Anyone have experience on the symptoms of a spring falling out?
Wow, looks like I completely missed your post, Katanaman! I know there was a period of time when WG was not able to email Gmail, so maybe this was at that time.
Were you able to get to the bottom of your clutch issues?
Cheers,
Shaun
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Necro Thread!
Is there a known production range of potentially affected clutches? Either by VIN or engine number? Most are referred to as 2012, or even early 2012, but some reportedly failed on "2013" bikes. I have seen no mention of production dates. When did MG switch to the 1400 clutches?
I know this is only affecting a handful of bikes, so far. But the prospect of needing to complete this replacement approaches horrifying. I am hesitant to even consider a 2012 - 2013 bike with the original clutch. Considering the current values of these bikes (I've seen a few sub $5000 examples) vs the $1000US price of the clutch set and what, $2000 labor? This would basically be a write off.
A smart person would probably buy only the upgraded bikes. If only I knew when that was? 2014? 2015?
My understanding is that this was related to a bad batch of clutches, and that the newer design doesn't have this problem.
That's all I know.
Cheers,
Shaun
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Necro Thread!
Is there a known production range of potentially affected clutches? Either by VIN or engine number? Most are referred to as 2012, or even early 2012, but some reportedly failed on "2013" bikes. I have seen no mention of production dates. When did MG switch to the 1400 clutches?
I know this is only affecting a handful of bikes, so far. But the prospect of needing to complete this replacement approaches horrifying. I am hesitant to even consider a 2012 - 2013 bike with the original clutch. Considering the current values of these bikes (I've seen a few sub $5000 examples) vs the $1000US price of the clutch set and what, $2000 labor? This would basically be a write off.
A smart person would probably buy only the upgraded bikes. If only I knew when that was? 2014? 2015?
I've never seen a specific production range related to this known clutch issue, but I have never personally heard about a 2013 or later model having the problem. If you want to be absolutely safe, then by all means look for a 2014 or later.
As for when the 1400 clutch superceded the earlier units, I'm not sure. As you'll see in this thread, though, the change had already been made in 2015, so I would suspect that it probably occurred with the introduction of the 1400 in 2014. A dealer might be able to say when the change was made.
Good luck with your Stelvio search. Once I resolved this problem back in 2015, my Stelvio ended up being an absolutely fantastic, engaging and reliable machine right up until I sold it in 2021. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one to anyone.
Cheers,
Shaun
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I just yanked a bad one out of a late 14 model Stelvio , the 13 year is total bull, they used up all their stock first.
This one locked the motor, 2 springs came loose.
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I just yanked a bad one out of a late 14 model Stelvio , the 13 year is total bull, they used up all their stock first.
This one locked the motor, 2 springs came loose.
Good to know, Steve. Thanks for offering additional information that might be helpful to others.
Cheers,
Shaun
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That's not good news. But thanks for the info.
What should I expect the repair cost to be at a qualified shop? (Haha. As if I could find a 'qualified' shop within 500 miles, maybe within 1200 miles)
I think finding anyone to do the work will be a challenge. I just know I ain't doing it. At least not willingly.
Should I assume the Guzzi replacement disc will last? It's about $100. I think the complete 1400 kit is about $1000 US, which by all accounts is an upgrade.
Having a bike lock up like that doesn't sound like a good thing at all...a scary prospect.
I just yanked a bad one out of a late 14 model Stelvio , the 13 year is total bull, they used up all their stock first.
This one locked the motor, 2 springs came loose.
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Factory fix is the whole assembly not a disc. If it makes noise STOP riding bike & fix cause it will lock-up.