Author Topic: 2012 V7 regulator alternative  (Read 514 times)

Offline ozziguzzi

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2012 V7 regulator alternative
« on: April 08, 2021, 04:16:04 AM »
regulator has failed (diagnosis by bike electrician ) and I'm wondering if there are substitutes for the MG item and cheaper. I'll also contact Pete at Bungendore for suggestions
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Online Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2021, 05:30:54 AM »
Yes there are, just check you have a single phase alternator (two yellow wires)then Google Guzzi Voltage Regulator. They changed later on to a three phase (three yellow wires)
The V7 has a permanent magnet alternator (no rotor windings)
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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2021, 05:46:32 AM »
regulator has failed (diagnosis by bike electrician ) and I'm wondering if there are substitutes for the MG item and cheaper. I'll also contact Pete at Bungendore for suggestions

When a bunch of us with MkI 1TB V7's found our regulators to be overcharging we replaced them with the FHO20AA Mosfet units from:

https://roadstercycle.com/

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 08:38:42 AM »
When I found that the reg/rect was overcharging on my (former) V7 Stone, I replaced it with this mosfet unit. It was "plug and play" and worked perfectly.

https://rmstator.com/en_us/mosfet-voltage-regulator-rectifier-for-moto-guzzi-california-vintage-1100-nevada-750-v7-special-750-2006-2014
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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 08:38:42 AM »

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2021, 07:05:04 PM »
Did I miss the part # for a 2015 V7?
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Offline ozziguzzi

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2021, 08:43:50 PM »
thanks for that info guys. 
If I can get one shipped from roadstercycle for $39 shipping cost that will be great.
As an interim measure I went to the 2102 TTB Racer to borrow a regulator but the plug at the headstock won't come apart. Now I'll check the type of alternator that the 2014 STB Racer has has viz the 2013 special. I'll see if I can use this in the meantime.
I think Mal had trouble parting the plug because of overheating and had to cut the wires.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 08:45:20 PM by ozziguzzi »
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Offline ozziguzzi

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2021, 10:10:32 PM »
Yes there are, just check you have a single phase alternator (two yellow wires)then Google Guzzi Voltage Regulator. They changed later on to a three phase (three yellow wires)
The V7 has a permanent magnet alternator (no rotor windings)
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Yes KR it's a two yellow wire one. 
Getting the regulator out is not easy.
It goes to two plugs under the front of the tank and while the black 4 pin plug was easy to separate, the white/yellow (or maybe off white) one didn't want to come apart. (I was going to pinch the reg off my old Racer but couldn't get this plug apart so abandoned that idea.)
Next.  Getting that "quick" release fuel line off the tank is an art form. Not sure I could repeat what i did to free it.
Next . Getting the two plugs on the end of the regulator free is difficult. In the 45 degree triangle where the two bottom rails come up and meet the horizontal frame rails, is a plastic guard designed to stop water spraying up and it extends back on the horizontal under the tank. This makes getting the plugs down through the gap very difficult. I may take to it with a dremel and do a cutout. The technique seems to be - use a long screwdriver to
push the clutch cable clear. Get the black plug through first and then use moderate force to get the big white one through.
After all this (potentially expensive if you damage the QR fuel plug) it doesn't seem a great idea to repeat the performance with my good Racer just to cannabalize the regulator.
Mal is currently out of action with a detached retina (and is 800kms away) but it didn't matter much, because even he says that success in getting that QR hose off is very random
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Offline ozziguzzi

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2021, 04:02:25 AM »

Can you clarify.

Thunderbikes in Perth have a Guzzi regulator but when i read about the mosfet on here and on Guzzitech, it seemed to be a much better unit.

Is the MG one still liable to overcharge or charge at a higher voltage than 14.4.

I'd wait for a mosfet but with freight and $conversion, and then 10% GST (import tax ), it would end up costing the same as a local MG unit.
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Online Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2021, 08:35:31 AM »
Yes KR it's a two yellow wire one. 
The V7III has 3 wires and a Chinese Shindengen regulator.
Getting the regulator out is not easy.
I know, I had to change the stator on my V7III when it quit charging, I got quite good at it.
It goes to two plugs under the front of the tank and while the black 4 pin plug was easy to separate, the white/yellow (or maybe off white) one didn't want to come apart. (I was going to pinch the reg off my old Racer but couldn't get this plug apart so abandoned that idea.)
Next.  Getting that "quick" release fuel line off the tank is an art form. Not sure I could repeat what i did to free it.
someone posted the trick on here, unplug the pumps electrics first then try to start it that bleeds off the pressure that was making the QR hard to press.
Next . Getting the two plugs on the end of the regulator free is difficult. In the 45 degree triangle where the two bottom rails come up and meet the horizontal frame rails, is a plastic guard designed to stop water spraying up and it extends back on the horizontal under the tank. This makes getting the plugs down through the gap very difficult. I may take to it with a dremel and do a cutout. The technique seems to be - use a long screwdriver to
push the clutch cable clear. Get the black plug through first and then use moderate force to get the big white one through.
After all this (potentially expensive if you damage the QR fuel plug) it doesn't seem a great idea to repeat the performance with my good Racer just to cannabalize the regulator.
Mal is currently out of action with a detached retina (and is 800kms away) but it didn't matter much, because even he says that success in getting that QR hose off is very random
A link to my trials.
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=106425.msg1694848#msg1694848
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 08:53:32 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline ozziguzzi

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2021, 06:38:10 PM »
Can you clarify.

Thunderbikes in Perth have a Guzzi regulator

Is the MG one still liable to overcharge or charge at a higher voltage than 14.4.

I'd wait for a mosfet but with freight and $conversion, and then 10% GST (import tax ), it would end up costing the same as a local MG unit.

tks for that thread link KR.  Can you tell me what's the story with a MG replacement .


Now it won't crank. Battery freshly charged and also put a jumper on>  Can you supply that starter motor test. About running a wire from the battery to the solenoid. I shorted the + on the solenoid to the earth wire and just got a whirring sound -starter motor didn't turn. Is this doing the same test?
Now i have the starter motor off but the terminals are attached to the solenoid so I can't just test the starter motor in isolation. Or can I?

Next. I wanted to check the starter motor fuse but when I look at P81 of the online manual (98 pages PDF) and the fuses starting from the tank are A10, B15, C15, D 5, E 5 and and fuse 30A

The bike fuse block has them (starting at the tank 30, 5, 5, 15 15 and 10   Exactly the reverse sequence. If at some at some stage someone had removed all the fuses (unlikely) and put them back in the wrong order, surely the lower amp fuses would have blown.

Which is right? the manual or the bike.

EDIT.

The online manual diagram and the handbook P105 are BOTH WRONG.
Went to the back 10A fuse and pulled it (after first sounding the horn) and the horn became u/s. So bike sequence is right.

Kinda knocks your faith in repair manuals.  Mal says the clutch rod ends are transposed in the diagram. What else?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2021, 10:06:20 PM by ozziguzzi »
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Offline ozziguzzi

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2021, 11:55:11 PM »
Latest news

I took the starter motor down to A E who said that it was fine.
Put it back on bike.
Tried to start but with sidestand up in case switch was faulty.
Pump primed but wouldn't kick over.
Last resort - drop started it on 25 degree driveway.
Back home - used starter button and it started. Did it again - started.
So it can't be the sidestand switch or the battery or the starter motor.
What is going on?

Incidentally I measured the charging voltage and it's not good - 15V
However the replacement regulator came off a 2012 racer and I understand that these ones were overcharging.

As soon as i get a new regulator I'll take it off. I'm waiting for Motociclo to confirm that he regulator they send, isn't going to be another one that overcharges.

Any other good ideas?
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Online Kev m

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2021, 07:05:46 AM »
OK, sorry I'd checked out on this one.

First I now see (cause I'm on my desktop and not phone) that your 2012 Special is the same as my 2013 (i.e. first year in the market SINGLE throttle body).

So yes, I wouldn't bother with a new regulator from MG. For SOME REASON the data we original found on those regulators suggest they were designed to charge 15-15.5V or thereabouts and everyone pretty much agreed that's a bad idea. I don't know why they are designed like that and some of them SEEM to charge only to about 15V (which must of us agreed is THE upper limit).

I know I got away with it for like 3 YEARS on mine (I can't say for sure it was charging over 15V that whole time, but it could have been because I didn't think to check it before people started having problems). But my battery was starting to show the signs of wear (possibly age, but probably from overcharging) when I did finally check it and replace it with a Mosfet unit which holds a steady 14.4V!

Now the starting problem COULD be the battery. Honestly, if you didn't have it load tested (carbon pile load tester) which basically stresses the battery to deliver a certain amount of cold cranking amps and checks if it can do it or if it falls shy. If you only tested it by voltage it could have 12.7-13.2 volts but with very few amps. If it's not enough amps to crank the motor Bob's Your Uncle, it's the battery.

Now a borderline battery might also not have enough amps to overcome resistance in the circuit - sticky relay, poor connections, broken strands of wire under the insulation etc. So it's a good idea to check all the connectors, fuses, relays, switches sure.

But the fact that it DID start sometime suggests those things are good (unless it's an intermittent connection - something loose enough to make contact one minute and break contact the next). So it's not a bad idea to recheck the connections and harness.

Still I would REALLY like you to try and different (brand new/known good/no doubt) battery because 9 out of 10 times that's still it. And you had a regulator problem.

Sure MG claims 15.0 is the upper limit (in one place in the service manual) but that is high enough that is makes me nervous long term. And if it's charging at 15 now, well, who is to say (without a voltmeter on your dash) that it won't be 15.4 tomorrow slowly cooking the battery.

Those are my thoughts this early morning. Maybe KR can comment in more depth as he has a bigger brain than me.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 06:45:11 AM by Kev m »
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Offline ozziguzzi

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2021, 07:50:17 AM »
thanks for that Kev.
It's not the battery because it's a new one and i had it load tested after getting marooned at Tuena when it did go flat, but this was because there was leakage from the battery because of the faulty alternator. Instead of .08 it was .367 (I think). battery is a YUASA

I don't like the idea of buying an MG regulator but it seems that I have very limited choices. Mosfet is not available here and shipping from the US is very expensive. The N......... one is available but is a three wire and requires some soldering.

So today (Wed ) I went for an 80km ride and it started easily numerous times. Why it wouldn't start on Tuesday is a mystery. I am going to lift the tank and check that the relays are all seated properly. Apart from this, there seems little else to check.

The regulator would be coming up from Motociclo and John (who is highly regarded in the MG fraternity) said that 15v charging is not a problem . Everything I read here suggests otherwise but as I said above, replacement choices are limited. MGs are thin on the ground here and the parts wholesaler on the Eastern seaboard (Peter Stevens) is not very intersted in stocking parts. Mario at Thunderbikes in Perth is much better.

Anyway, I'm off on a 1000km round trip to the Inverally rally tomorrow so I hope there's no more issues it's actually a 2013 Special.
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Online Kev m

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2021, 08:29:50 AM »
thanks for that Kev.
It's not the battery because it's a new one and i had it load tested after getting marooned at Tuena when it did go flat, but this was because there was leakage from the battery because of the faulty alternator. Instead of .08 it was .367 (I think). battery is a YUASA

I don't like the idea of buying an MG regulator but it seems that I have very limited choices. Mosfet is not available here and shipping from the US is very expensive. The N......... one is available but is a three wire and requires some soldering.

So today (Wed ) I went for an 80km ride and it started easily numerous times. Why it wouldn't start on Tuesday is a mystery. I am going to lift the tank and check that the relays are all seated properly. Apart from this, there seems little else to check.

The regulator would be coming up from Motociclo and John (who is highly regarded in the MG fraternity) said that 15v charging is not a problem . Everything I read here suggests otherwise but as I said above, replacement choices are limited. MGs are thin on the ground here and the parts wholesaler on the Eastern seaboard (Peter Stevens) is not very intersted in stocking parts. Mario at Thunderbikes in Perth is much better.

Anyway, I'm off on a 1000km round trip to the Inverally rally tomorrow so I hope there's no more issues it's actually a 2013 Special.


Crap, ok, if Bat is good, look for a loose/intermittent connection on something related to the starter circuit. Maybe replace the relay just to be sure.

I'm thinking startus interruptus could also apply to these though I haven't heard anyone suffering it.

The alternator thing is weird. Again the OEM Engine Manual for the MK I STB Stone/Special/Racer (MANUALE STAZIONE DI SERVIZIO
B043094, Copyright 2012) says about the charging circuit:

Quote
Voltage on battery poles with engine speed always between 3000 - 5000 RPM
Start the engine, after about one minute of operating bring the speed to 3000-5000 RPM,
then measure with a tester the voltage at the battery poles that must always be between
13V and 15V. Otherwise, if the correct operation of the alternator has already been checked,
replace the alternator.

So "technically" according to MG your guy isn't wrong when he says 15V is "ok".

But SOOOOOOO many battery manufacturers disagree saying that's a little too high. And same with electrical engineers and electricians on the original thread about it. And it leaves no room for error, so if the regulator is already allowing 15.0 V and then starts allowing 15.1 or more you're over the limit. I don't like it running so high.

Now I haven't found any schematics on Part #883878 which is the OEM one for the 2012/13 Stone/Special/Racer

But on a schematic I found online for the previous 2TB models, the Ducati Engergia Regulator Guzzi Part # 32703810 which was used on the N7, B7, and V7C - part of the schematic reads:

Voltage Regulator 15.5 +/- 0.5 V

See here:

https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/MG-VoltRectOE-p/mg-voltrectoe.htm


I dunno, but this was part of what prompted a bunch of us to go with the Mosfet unit. We just had no faith in the specs that Guzzi/Ducati were putting out on the OEM units and their design parameters.

See original thread here:

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=81838.210


Can't you get someone to buy one here and ship it to you there? Is it still too expensive then? Yeah there is some soldering necessary. But you can check with JAS67 here and he can talk you through what he did on a bunch of them?



« Last Edit: April 14, 2021, 08:30:01 AM by Kev m »
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Offline mr_pacman

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2021, 05:31:12 PM »
So would a North American spec, 2014 V7 (racer) have these voltage regular issues as well or was it relegated to the first year of the single throttle body bikes (2013 in North America).

If the 2014 potentially has this issue, is there an easy way to check?  I do have a multimeter. I have no clue how to use it or what I'm checking for.

Thanks
James

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2021, 05:37:51 PM »
So would a North American spec, 2014 V7 (racer) have these voltage regular issues as well or was it relegated to the first year of the single throttle body bikes (2013 in North America).

If the 2014 potentially has this issue, is there an easy way to check?  I do have a multimeter. I have no clue how to use it or what I'm checking for.

Thanks
James

Yes many did.

Checking is easy. Connect the meter to the battery, start and warm the motor. Check DC voltage at the battery with the motor running at speed (4000-6000 rpm).

You want it to be 15V or less. You really prefer less. 14-.14.5v is perfect.
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Offline mr_pacman

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2021, 01:58:31 PM »
Yes many did.

Checking is easy. Connect the meter to the battery, start and warm the motor. Check DC voltage at the battery with the motor running at speed (4000-6000 rpm).

You want it to be 15V or less. You really prefer less. 14-.14.5v is perfect.

Just checked mine.  At the battery, using a cheap multimeter,  during idle it's between 14.3 and 14.6 as it wouldn't stay stead on one number.  At a fairly steady 3,000 rpm it's 15.3 and held there and stayed at 15.3 up to 4,000 rpm. I didn't go higher than 4,000 rpm as it was pretty loud and my wife was on a work call in the house.

If this bike is being used for short trips (15km at a time at most) is this something I'll need address right away or is the sense or urgency more if you are taking long highway trips?

Any thoughts on replacing it with a factory Guzzi part or is the aftermarket the only way to go?

For what it's worth, I don't mind having to replace batteries every few years if this is going to be the only issue.  If we are talking about blowing up ECU's (like I've read on other forums), then it's more a concern for me.

Has anyone used this one?

https://rmstator.com/en_us/mosfet-voltage-regulator-rectifier-for-moto-guzzi-california-vintage-1100-nevada-750-v7-special-750-2006-2014

Is it a direct bolt in with no snipping of plugs, crimping/soldering or fabrication of baseplates to make it fit?

James
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 02:03:50 PM by mr_pacman »

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Re: 2012 V7 regulator alternative
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2021, 02:24:03 PM »
Just checked mine.  At the battery, using a cheap multimeter,  during idle it's between 14.3 and 14.6 as it wouldn't stay stead on one number.  At a fairly steady 3,000 rpm it's 15.3 and held there and stayed at 15.3 up to 4,000 rpm. I didn't go higher than 4,000 rpm as it was pretty loud and my wife was on a work call in the house.

If this bike is being used for short trips (15km at a time at most) is this something I'll need address right away or is the sense or urgency more if you are taking long highway trips?

Any thoughts on replacing it with a factory Guzzi part or is the aftermarket the only way to go?

For what it's worth, I don't mind having to replace batteries every few years if this is going to be the only issue.  If we are talking about blowing up ECU's (like I've read on other forums), then it's more a concern for me.

Has anyone used this one?

https://rmstator.com/en_us/mosfet-voltage-regulator-rectifier-for-moto-guzzi-california-vintage-1100-nevada-750-v7-special-750-2006-2014

Is it a direct bolt in with no snipping of plugs, crimping/soldering or fabrication of baseplates to make it fit?

James

It certainly seems that many have operated their bikes under these conditions without a lot of reports of failures other than the battery (I think the ECU failures were much more out of spec but it's a concern).

But you spend almost all your time at or above 3k unless at stop so it gets lots of overcharging.

Obviously many of us made the choice not to risk it any further.

I don't trust the OEM part.

That replacement looks ok though I'm a little puzzled by what they mean with their temperature spec. I THINK IT'S a direct replacement but it's been a couple of years now.

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