Drive Spline Failure

[SmithSwede]

Holy Cow.  Karl W is unstoppable!   I remember when he got the V7. 

[Kev m]

Just got off the phone w/Karl W, his V7 II has over 100K mi on it and never any lube on splines, my Cal2 has 130K mi pulls a sidecar over 100k mi and no lube on splines.  I think it's all BS!!! No one here worked on farm machinery, if you lube stuff it collects dust and wears faster.

I'm in this camp. And for gawd's sake, it's NOT IN THE MAINTENANCE SCHEDULE.... And OEM's tend to be really anal-retentive about their schedules.

[geodoc]

Never had much luck with it. Pounds out, flings off, splines left dry as dust.

Oddly, not my experience. Different environment? The grease likes me & doesn't like you?





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[dxhall]

My theory is that the grease keeps water out of the joint and therefore keeps the splines from rusting.  I think it’s the rust particles that create the abrasive dust that wears the splines. 

[Moto]

My head is about to explode. I thought Wurth Sig 3000 was the best solution out there. Now we have some saying to use no lube at all? I would think by now we would have enough experience collectively to decide this, but here come 100,000-mile examples of success without any lube. Dirt is the abrasive. Rust is the abrasive. Grease is the solution. Grease is the problem.

Makes me wish for a simple chain drive.

Moto

[geodoc]

A grease thread is perilously close to an oil thread.





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[lucian]

Grease  and oil are great until  contaminated, then all bets are off.  Running  any spline without corrosion protection is recipe for disaster in a potentially damp environment. Spline to coupling fit/ tolerance is of upmost importance for longevity. Wear rate is exponential as fit tolerance slowly increases over time.  A common problem with pto shafts.  Periodic cleaning, inspection and lubing is the proper approach.  Replace parts when  wear becomes evident, before catastrophic failure comes knocking.  Seems as though SS has done  everything  right ,  but eventually these thing do wear out just like us.

[Ncdan]

Just got off the phone w/Karl W, his V7 II has over 100K mi on it and never any lube on splines, my Cal2 has 130K mi pulls a sidecar over 100k mi and no lube on splines.  I think it's all BS!!! No one here worked on farm machinery, if you lube stuff it collects dust and wears faster.

Very valid point Steve! I had a 60s model New Holland bailer that made 10s of thousands of bails of hay and the torque on the driveline splines are tremendous, without hardly any noticeable wear. I think these type issues are simply crappy material that when it wears to a point the tolerances become a major factor to quicker failure as in this case.

[guzzisteve]

You don't use any lube on the chains of a corn picker or combine only the shaft bearings. Same w/an elevator.
Small Block drive was designed for 350-500 originally and not too many made it to 100K mi, just the nature of the beast. Now it's all been improved but only recently the drive. I think maybe the parts just wore out.

[Ncdan]

You don't use any lube on the chains of a corn picker or combine only the shaft bearings. Same w/an elevator.
Small Block drive was designed for 350-500 originally and not too many made it to 100K mi, just the nature of the beast. Now it's all been improved but only recently the drive. I think maybe the parts just wore out.

I did oil  the chain drive on the Bailer every season as well as clean and regrease the threading and knot tying components every cutting or it woukd not tie the knots proper and bales would spit out broken

[bigbikerrick]

Interesting discussion... Some folks get huge mileage out of their splines with zero lubricant, others ,they wear out quickly with lube present. I personally have been using the Wurth 3000 for about 3-4 years now, and its like glue, stays where you put it, but considering the different results that occur, could it be a mis alignment of the swingarm flange causing a "wobble" and thus wear in the splines, like someone here suggested in the past on the big blocks? Or is this a completely different animal?
Rick.

[guzzisteve]

Hard to have smallblock misaligned, swingarm is against one side of trans mount w/spacer in between and snugged up.
A big block w/enclosed swingarm is supposed to be lubed by oil vapor from rear drive, some over fill it so this happens.

[Mr Revhead]

Never had much luck with it. Pounds out, flings off, splines left dry as dust.

Then I don't think you had the genuine stuff. Its such a fine stticky paste (paste, not gel like grease) it can't fling off.
Everything I've used it on has stayed wet and lubed. Use on the splines of all my bikes. paint it on with a brush

[Chuck in Indiana]

Then I don't think you had the genuine stuff. Its such a fine stticky paste (paste, not gel like grease) it can't fling off.
Everything I've used it on has stayed wet and lubed. Use on the splines of all my bikes. paint it on with a brush

I'm with Charlie. I tried Honda moly on the drive splines of my CNC mill, and it was gone shortly.

[Mr Revhead]

Are you sure it was gone? Or just spread itself to a thin paste, like it's supposed to? It isn't grease, it won't sit there in big sticky gobs. It smoothed itself all over the surface coating it thoroughly. It is after all meant to lubricate close fitting high pressure areas.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Then I don't think you had the genuine stuff. Its such a fine stticky paste (paste, not gel like grease) it can't fling off.
Everything I've used it on has stayed wet and lubed. Use on the splines of all my bikes. paint it on with a brush

How could I not get the "genuine stuff" when I bought it at a Honda dealer? Whatever works for you. It didn't for me and I moved on to something that does.

[sign216]

The irony of this argument is that some say you don't need spline lube at all, and other say it's all about which lube you use. 

I think the issue wasn't the lube at all, but a sub-standard heat treatment that left the gear softer than required.  This issue was found on previous transmission gears so seeing it on the splines isn't abnormal. 

[Mr Revhead]

How could I not get the "genuine stuff" when I bought it at a Honda dealer? Whatever works for you. It didn't for me and I moved on to something that does.

Who knows what's being faked today... Just had a chat to a trailer builder mate who had to return an entire shipment of NSK bearings. Weren't genuine NSK, despite all correct packaging and serial numbers.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Who knows what's being faked today... Just had a chat to a trailer builder mate who had to return an entire shipment of NSK bearings. Weren't genuine NSK, despite all correct packaging and serial numbers.

It's been ten years ago since I bought that tube of Honda Moly 60 Paste at Twigg Cycles in Hagerstown, MD. I have no doubt it was the genuine stuff, faking stuff wasn't even a thing back then.

[John A]

I thoughly clean the splines then coat them with dry film moly,   Then I use Wurth on top of that. I have had good luck with doing it like that https://www.bing.com/shop?q=molybdenum+disulfide+dry+film+lubricant&FORM=QSRE1

[Moto]

I thoughly clean the splines then coat them with dry film moly,   Then I use Wurth on top of that. I have had good luck with doing it like that https://www.bing.com/shop?q=molybdenum+disulfide+dry+film+lubricant&FORM=QSRE1

Perfect! You not only have two types of lubricant, you have the unlubricated splines underneath! A grand slam!

Moto

[fotoguzzi]

Over here in Minnesota it would be a Hat Trick..



My kid 7 years ago advancing his team to the state tournament,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsuFrWUJcZY

[John A]

Perfect! You not only have two types of lubricant, you have the unlubricated splines underneath! A grand slam!

Moto

Are you confused?

[geodoc]

Are you confused?

Yes. But let me start again after a couple single malts and I'll see if that makes it seem less so.

I'm thinking an artisanal concoction comprised of something like 1/3 boat trailer wheel bearing grease, 1/3 Honda #60 & 1/3 alcoholic tincture of laudanum.   




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[bigbikerrick]

Yes. But let me start again after a couple single malts and I'll see if that makes it seem less so.

I'm thinking an artisanal concoction comprised of something like 1/3 boat trailer wheel bearing grease, 1/3 Honda #60 & 1/3 alcoholic tincture of laudanum.   

Thats hilarious!
Rick.




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[voncrump]

OK folks, what about the elephant in the room.
The couplers were not correctly engaged.
That’s what I get from looking at the photos.
Coat them with whatever you want but if half the rear spline is hanging out of engagement with the front then that is going to cause a problem.
Correct me if I’m wrong.
Cheers, voncrump.

[Mr Revhead]

I see exactly what you mean Voncrump. And I agree, can clearly see it's only half been engaged and that's probably the main cause.
I won't claim to be familiar with this model, but it does suggest something in the wrong place, or around the wrong way. Is there the possibility of old grease caking up preventing something sliding home?

[Ncdan]

Im by means an expert on the subject or engineer, just relying on common sense and past experiences, I'm about to come to the thinking that the reason for putting any type or amount of grease on splines is to allow them to be removed without having to use a hammer and pry tool. I'm not sure but I don't think the design tolerances  of spline fit includes the application of heavy grease. If so, once the grease squeezes out there is a looser fit which encourages much faster wear.

[Moto]

Im by means an expert on the subject or engineer, just relying on common sense and past experiences, I'm about to come to the thinking that the reason for putting any type or amount of grease on splines is to allow them to be removed without having to use a hammer and pry tool. I'm not sure but I don't think the design tolerances  of spline fit includes the application of heavy grease. If so, once the grease squeezes out there is a looser fit which encourages much faster wear.

But this would only make sense if application of heavy grease could spread the splines apart, which it couldn't, the way it would normally be applied.

[Rough Edge racing]

  This is all interesting.....My point of view is that if special lube is needed then perhaps the engineering and or material is not all it can be.. My viewpoint is from extensive 4x4 experience. Driveshaft splines do wear out.. they slide in and out constantly in response to suspension travel and many designs are more or less exposed to the environment..But most do last 100,000 miles in normal service ,some much longer..All of then are lubed by tranny lube or by grease ...None run dry to my knowledge...
 What do other shaft drive bikes have? Are they a problem...Seems to me from of these shaft problems or the maintenance of pulling the shaft are more of a nuisance than the use of an O ring chain...