buy your kid a bike, they crash bad

[SmithSwede]

Since becoming truly self aware at the age of maybe 40 , I haven't encouraged anyone to take up riding motorcycles . If someone is serious about riding , and is willing to take the risk , then I will do everything possible to help them become safe and proficient at doing so .

Tragic situation.     I’m quoting Dusty because I had the exact same reaction to this post. 

I came to this dour opinion late, like Dusty.  But nowadays I don’t encourage anyone “new” to ride.   If you are already addicted, then we can talk and discuss our common addiction.    But I’m no longer willing to encourage anyone to do this.  Especially if they are physically uncoordinated, lack situational awareness, tend to “freeze” in stressful situations, etc. 

This comes up fairly often at work or with friends and acquaintances.  I’m the “motorcycle guy” so get the questions.   My mantra now is “no, don’t do it.  I’m crazy.” 

Not trying to second guess the parents.   Very sad. 

[Gliderjohn]

Hope this makes some sense. I believe there is a good case for a step system to full motorcycle licensing, kind of like in flying. Restricted sized bikes, ages, a period of time or miles before moving up to bigger or more unlimited bikes. Mandatory basic rider training and a more detailed written or if needed oral exam of not only road rules but the physics and dynamics of motorcycles and riding them.
If you want to have a high end sport bike you should be required to have some sort of track training addressing riding high performance bikes.
Those that really don't care for it will not want to go trouble and drop the thought of getting into it or continuing. Those that are not physically or mentally up to it will hopefully figure that out on the small displacement bikes and during training before probably getting really injured or killed.
99% of perspective pilots take flying pretty seriously as the human mind has a strong fear of heights and falling so either weed themselves out early in training or are counseled by instructors to maybe seek another hobby.
GliderJohn

[JohninVT]

My oldest daughter paid for the MSF course herself and got her motorcycle license last Spring, at 17.  I had a broken down, old Honda CT90 that we spent many weekends working on to get running.  I bought her a helmet, jacket, boots and gloves.  I did everything I could think of to mitigate the risks:
1)she grew up in a family of motorcyclists
2)she had a dirt bike at 8
3)she was riding pitbikes and mopeds around the neighborhood as soon as her feet could reach the pedals
4)she gained some mechanical aptitude and actually listened to her boring, old father when I explained the physics of riding and how to stay safe
5)her first bike is a 7hp machine that tops out at 55mph
6)her first bike looks rough because it’s a 44 year old antique but it’s in perfect mechanical condition
7)she put several thousand miles on it last summer

Despite all that, I still said no when she asked to take her bike to UNC in August.  The thought of her getting in an accident makes me physically ill and I just couldn’t handle the thought of her riding in a town full of 15,000 college kids.  It’s already a high risk activity.  It’s not a question of if you’ll crash...it’s a question of when you will.  There’s just too much drinking and texting while driving with that many kids in a small town.

At one point this summer I had so much anxiety about her riding that I pulled the fuse on her bike and didn’t tell her.  It sat for less than a week before she figured it out and was riding again.  I still haven’t told her I did it. She must think it just fell out. She wanted to ride enough that she found the problem and fixed it herself. 

I’ve taught four women how to ride and do basic maintenance on their motorcycles.  Sophie is the last one I’ll do it with. 

[PhilB]

You can't child-proof the world for anyone, and shouldn't try.  It stunts their growth.  No matter how much you care about a person, you *must* let them go and allow them to lead their own lives.  I would never push someone to be a motorcyclist, but I will help anyone who wants to be one.

In my own experience, I have a daughter, and my sister has a daughter and a son; all of them now in their 20's.  All of them wanted and enjoyed rides on the back of my bike when they were kids.  I did teach them all to drive a stick shift car, when they came of driving age.  (I think that's actually a significant barrier, and a big reason for the decline in motorcycling in general -- most bikes are manual shifting, and most young people don't know how that even works.)

Of the three, my daughter rides (or did, right now she's mainly being a mom with a toddler, so she's not riding at this time, but I bet she will again).  She is mostly interested in working with children -- teaching, etc.

My sister's son is mostly an indoor kid -- video games, D&D, etc.  He does enjoy hiking and camping.  He was the most enthusiastic as a little kid about sitting on the bike and making vroom-vroom noises, and later about getting rides on it, but has shown no inclination to get his own.  He's also the least adept with the stickshift car.  He is studying to become a pharmacist.

My sister's daughter has not become a rider either, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised if she does at some point.  She is very outdoorsy -- she is into rockclimbing, and spelunking, and other physical activities.  She drives a stickshift car.  Her career is as a field biologist.

People need to find their own ways, and that entails risks.  And their parents need to let them do so.  I see a lot of riders who insist on riding themselves, and would never let someone else take that from them, but who (IMO hypocritically) discourage or even forbid their wives and children to do so.  I disapprove.

PhilB

[Rough Edge racing]

Hope this makes some sense. I believe there is a good case for a step system to full motorcycle licensing, kind of like in flying. Restricted sized bikes, ages, a period of time or miles before moving up to bigger or more unlimited bikes. Mandatory basic rider training and a more detailed written or if needed oral exam of not only road rules but the physics and dynamics of motorcycles and riding them.
If you want to have a high end sport bike you should be required to have some sort of track training addressing riding high performance bikes.
Those that really don't care for it will not want to go trouble and drop the thought of getting into it or continuing. Those that are not physically or mentally up to it will hopefully figure that out on the small displacement bikes and during training before probably getting really injured or killed.
99% of perspective pilots take flying pretty seriously as the human mind has a strong fear of heights and falling so either weed themselves out early in training or are counseled by instructors to maybe seek another hobby.
GliderJohn

  It sounds ok, but what do you do with all the current bike licenses? Grandfather them in or retest millions? And who pays the extra expense? Faced with stricter licensing and costs, many riders ,just as now, will continure to ride without a license with a MC endorsement...Just my opinion..

[Lannis]

Hope this makes some sense. I believe there is a good case for a step system to full motorcycle licensing, kind of like in flying. Restricted sized bikes, ages, a period of time or miles before moving up to bigger or more unlimited bikes. Mandatory basic rider training and a more detailed written or if needed oral exam of not only road rules but the physics and dynamics of motorcycles and riding them.
If you want to have a high end sport bike you should be required to have some sort of track training addressing riding high performance bikes.
Those that really don't care for it will not want to go trouble and drop the thought of getting into it or continuing. Those that are not physically or mentally up to it will hopefully figure that out on the small displacement bikes and during training before probably getting really injured or killed.
99% of perspective pilots take flying pretty seriously as the human mind has a strong fear of heights and falling so either weed themselves out early in training or are counseled by instructors to maybe seek another hobby.
GliderJohn

There's a lot to be said for a stepped, multi-year, full-training system of motorcycle licensing.   You can go to England or many European countries and see the results.   As opposed to here, where 90% of the riders I see are wobbling around turns in T-shirts and beanies on V-twin cruisers or batwing baggers, 90% of the riders in the UK are in full gear on non-cruisers, and riding very competently.

But it takes years, costs thousands of dollars, and I'd question whether most potential American riders would stand still for it all.   Sort of a cultural issue that says "I'm responsible for myself and learning how to ride, and it's not anyone else's job to cost me a fortune and years of my time to make me "safe"".

I'm already in, so I don't really have a dog in the fight; I'm OK both ways.

Lannis

[Rough Edge racing]

 The young man who crashed was as skilled as anyone with three years experience, he appeared to handle a bike well...The accident, as far as I know, was caused by a PU truck appearing out of nowhere.. Maybe the truck ran a stop sign or the rider just didn't see it time to react, I really don't want to ask his parents about that right now...

 Latest news is better...Nathan is sitting up, eyes open more often than not,eating ,following simple directions..He his still dazed and confused mostly likely from head trauma and maybe the strong pain killers...He will be starting therapy to improve his recovery.The parents are still in a high state of anxiety but it's getting better....

[Siamese]

Hope this makes some sense. I believe there is a good case for a step system to full motorcycle licensing, kind of like in flying. Restricted sized bikes, ages, a period of time or miles before moving up to bigger or more unlimited bikes. Mandatory basic rider training and a more detailed written or if needed oral exam of not only road rules but the physics and dynamics of motorcycles and riding them.
If you want to have a high end sport bike you should be required to have some sort of track training addressing riding high performance bikes.
Those that really don't care for it will not want to go trouble and drop the thought of getting into it or continuing. Those that are not physically or mentally up to it will hopefully figure that out on the small displacement bikes and during training before probably getting really injured or killed.
99% of perspective pilots take flying pretty seriously as the human mind has a strong fear of heights and falling so either weed themselves out early in training or are counseled by instructors to maybe seek another hobby.
GliderJohn

As a libertarian, I'm leery of a government solution to a human problem.  When in doubt, err on the side of freedom.  I wear ATGATT, ride conservatively, cringe when I see people riding without helmets, but cringe even more at the thought of forcing people to wear them.  You have a right to be stupid.  People do foolish stuff, like getting on crotch rockets with little or no riding experience.  But, I see danger in trying to stupid proof our society.  It puts an unnecessary burden on the non-stupids.  Oh...and you can't fix stupid.     

[twowheeladdict]

The young man who crashed was as skilled as anyone with three years experience, he appeared to handle a bike well...The accident, as far as I know, was caused by a PU truck appearing out of nowhere.. Maybe the truck ran a stop sign or the rider just didn't see it time to react, I really don't want to ask his parents about that right now...

 Latest news is better...Nathan is sitting up, eyes open more often than not,eating ,following simple directions..He his still dazed and confused mostly likely from head trauma and maybe the strong pain killers...He will be starting therapy to improve his recovery.The parents are still in a high state of anxiety but it's getting better....

 

Thanks for the update. 

[oldbike54]

 Do us all a favor and keep the politics out of this . Thanks

 Dusty

[Rough Edge racing]

 Dusty, with all due respect, bike safety and licensing is a very important topic to many here...I feel it's impossibe to have a meaningful discussion with some words about gov't because it's them who make up and enfore the standards as they see it. As a group well need to be aware of safety standards that may help or hinder biking as we know it..Just my opinion...

[oldbike54]

Dusty, with all due respect, bike safety and licensing is a very important topic to many here...I feel it's impossibe to have a meaningful discussion with some words about gov't because it's them who make up and enfore the standards as they see it. As a group well need to be aware of safety standards that may help or hinder biking as we know it..Just my opinion...

 I agree , but we were drifting into personal politics , just keeping us on the rails . Fair enough ?

 Dusty

[Ryan]

Glad to hear he is improving. The brain is a wonderous thing, fragile but capable of rewiring itself to restore function. Please keep us posted.

[s1120]

Glad to hear he is improving!!  Sounds like he is healing.

[Rough Edge racing]

I agree , but we were drifting into personal politics , just keeping us on the rails . Fair enough ?

 Dusty

Absolutely, I understand your position...

[JohninVT]

I think tiered licensing is a good idea.  I started on mopeds and my first motorcycle was a KZ200, then a XS360 and a XS500 before I bought 750 interceptor.  I had 20,000 miles on bikes before I owned one with 80hp.  In the 80’s, when I was in high school, kids would roll into the school parking lot on brand new GSXR’s and they had never ridden on the street before.  Those guys crashed and never rode again.  The kids riding older GS550’s and KZ’s and other smaller displacement UJM’s kept riding.  Probably partly due to the fact they weren’t on bikes that were capable of going 150mph. 

[Gliderjohn]

Without reading a bunch and training many new riders have no idea of the dynamics of speed. Years back on a low cloud base day our glider club group was waiting for it to lift and a 20ish year old showed up on whatever the big sport bike by Suzuki was at the time. He asked if he could take it out on the runway (7,000x150 ft.) and run it out since he had never had it over 100. We agreed for him to go for it.
We were a bit more than halfway down the runway with the direction he was coming from. He flew by us and soon we saw the brake light come on and then some tire smoke and a relatively high speed U-turn at the end of the runway. He came back rather slowly, got off the bike and the first thing out of his mouth was "I had no idea how far it took to slow from 170 mph". Now imagine if he had done that on the street for the first time.
GliderJohn

[Rough Edge racing]

 Yes, but he had enough common sense to do it on a closed course and not on a public road... ...To be realisitc, no one really needs 100 plus HP bike or 700 HP cars on the street...But if they are available ,there will be buyers...

[s1120]

This thread reminds me of a conversation I had with my oldest daughter last night. She asked why I had not taken her out on the bike yet, but had her younger sister. I told her... "well you didn't ask".  I wont offer the first time..  It needs to be her want..  Ended up she is not sure if she wants to. And that's fine, and left it that if she does.. just ask me.

[twowheeladdict]

I think tiered licensing is a good idea.  I started on mopeds and my first motorcycle was a KZ200, then a XS360 and a XS500 before I bought 750 interceptor.  I had 20,000 miles on bikes before I owned one with 80hp.  In the 80’s, when I was in high school, kids would roll into the school parking lot on brand new GSXR’s and they had never ridden on the street before.  Those guys crashed and never rode again.  The kids riding older GS550’s and KZ’s and other smaller displacement UJM’s kept riding.  Probably partly due to the fact they weren’t on bikes that were capable of going 150mph.

My first street bike at 19 was a full dresser Yamaha XS750.  I didn't need someone to force me to have a smaller bike as my first one.  I bought it over the smaller bikes I test rode because it was a more planted ride and hand better handling and brakes than all the other bikes.  Just because I had a bike this size didn't mean I rode it crazily.  I drove a service truck for my livelihood so I knew not to screw up my license by doing stupid shit.  Not everyone is a speed freak or feels the need to show off to compensate for some inadequacy. 

[Lannis]

Yes, but he had enough common sense to do it on a closed course and not on a public road... ...To be realisitc, no one really needs 100 plus HP bike or 700 HP cars on the street...But if they are available ,there will be buyers...

It's all just "talk and trousers" at that level.    When you go to a "track school" run by a professional racer, and at graduation you watch the instructor blow all the 600s and 750s off the track riding a DR350 or something, you realize how much of the "need for horsepower" is real and how much is just silliness.

It doesn't matter how much horsepower a street bike has at a certain point.  BUT you will hear boy racers riding a bike that has 160 horsepower lean back at the bar and say "Yeah, I need 20 or so more horsepower, I'm having a new map run tomorrow ....".

ALWAYS been like that, always.  And they have money and the motorcycle manufacturers will gladly take it from them ....

Lannis

[Rough Edge racing]

  I find lower power bike than need a lot of rpm to be annoying after the fun factor wears off...

[Lannis]

  I find lower power bike than need a lot of rpm to be annoying after the fun factor wears off...

Loud buzzy vibration is never any fun ......

[s1120]

It's all just "talk and trousers" at that level.    When you go to a "track school" run by a professional racer, and at graduation you watch the instructor blow all the 600s and 750s off the track riding a DR350 or something, you realize how much of the "need for horsepower" is real and how much is just silliness.

It doesn't matter how much horsepower a street bike has at a certain point.  BUT you will hear boy racers riding a bike that has 160 horsepower lean back at the bar and say "Yeah, I need 20 or so more horsepower, I'm having a new map run tomorrow ....".

ALWAYS been like that, always.  And they have money and the motorcycle manufacturers will gladly take it from them ....

Lannis

I learned that when I picked up a old RD400 back in the 90's. I used to love running with the 600cc sport bikes on the tight mountain roads. I am in NO WAY a pro rider..  but I used to read a lot, and practice riding skills, so I was OK... They would pull away on the straights, but I always caught up. and I bet I was having a LOT more fun!!!!!   

[Moparnut72]

Yes, but he had enough common sense to do it on a closed course and not on a public road... ...To be realisitc, no one really needs 100 plus HP bike or 700 HP cars on the street...But if they are available ,there will be buyers...

Wnen Chrysler was bringing out the Hellcat they expected to sell maybe 500. The last I heard they have sold over 5,000.
kk

[Penderic]

Got my skills, at a young age, with old beat up, patched up, ("unsafe"), small, off road dirt bikes in off road areas.

First lessons learned in getting the stubborn thing running and rolling.

Learned to handle the bike at the edge in the dirt first and many times I went over the edge.



Luckily, most of the time I bounced but didnt break any bones, learning to hill climb. Donuts in the dirt. Wheelies over small tree trunks laying in the trail. Learned a lot.



Lessons learned came in handy when I grew up....



 

[Rough Edge racing]

 Update...Nathan, the injured young man is talking, knows what's going on and is hobbling on pinned and wired legs using a walker..He's going to be released soon from the hospital and sent to a rehabilitation facility for a time...His dad, an avid biker doesn't know if he, the dad, will ride again because of bad memories...I saw the wrecked Victory ridden by Nathan..It doesn't look as bad as you might think . He must have been thrown off, breaking his legs, right into the back of the truck and bounced off onto the ground..I have no doubts the full face helmet limited trama...

[Rick in WNY]

Rough, that's great news! Thank you for the update!

As to the benefits of a full-face helmet... no question about it, they are the best protection you can get.

[Rough Edge racing]

 Nathan continues to improve and has moved from the hospital proper and into rehap...I spent time looking over the two wrecks. For privacy reasons ,no photos.. The Victory that crashed (first) into the truck has left center damage, smashed gas tank, big gouge on engine primary, handle bar risers broken clean off, front forks bent back but the front wheel is still good...The frame appears ok except the lower front left frame tube in bent in slighty..The 07 Harley dresser has less left center damage but the forks are bent back , wheel is busted clean through and the frame is bent in several places.
   The story is the PU truck was stopped at a light with turn signal on , a rural two lane running west into the setting sun. Don't know there was a turning lane but probably not..Nathan's Victory slams into the back of the truck at 50 MPH, he's thrown off  the bike goes down to the right ....His mom and dad try to swerve but they clip the wreckage, I suppose this bent the Harley forks... and do a hard left low side ...
  If there was any good out of this, an EMT saw the wreck and it's likely he saved  Nathan right there at the scene...
 Alcohol or drugs or speeding was not a factor... The sun may have blinded them, maybe they were looking for something..But it just seems like the bikes just not seeing the truck....Maybe just rider error...
  They don't have collision on either bike...Another neighbor who runs a part time bike shop in his barn took the bikes and will sell them whole or parts and give the money to the family...
  I  considered buying the wrecked custom  Victory..A slightly bent frame doesn't scare me..But I could never ride past their house...

[Demar]

Sorry to hear this. As we all know, you have to be alert at all times on a motorcycle. Three years ago my oldest daughter wanted to get a bike. I tried to talk her out of getting one. She was determined. She took the motorcycle safety course on her own. She said she was getting a bike whether I approved or not. At that point I had two choices, ignore her or help her. I chose to help her. I insisted she get a bike with ABS (inexperienced riders tend to grab a lot of brake when in a surprised situation). She bought a new 2016 V7II Special. We have been on quite a few rides together and she is an aware rider. I'm still nervous for her when we ride..... I can't help it. We have Nolan helmets with helmet to helmet comms and that helps a lot.