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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: pete roper on April 23, 2018, 12:48:37 AM

Title: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 23, 2018, 12:48:37 AM
A crashed Cali 14 came up on one of the auction sites here.

I just won it for $1350.00

Now I just have to slot the motor into my Stelvio and modify the heads and Shazzam! Stelvio 1400!

Mark’s on board for mapping it while I’m away in the US! A 1400cc ‘Dirt’ bike! How stupid is that? :evil:

Pete
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Huzo on April 23, 2018, 12:53:09 AM
A crashed Cali 14 came up on one of the auction sites here.

I just won it for $1350.00

Now I just have to slot the motor into my Stelvio and modify the heads and Shazzam! Stelvio 1400!

Mark�s on board for mapping it while I�m away in the US! A 1400cc �Dirt� bike! How stupid is that? :evil:

Pete
Wanna' sell your Stelvio donk and drivetrain if surplus to requirement, for duty in an '07 Norge ?
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Huzo on April 23, 2018, 12:54:57 AM
A crashed Cali 14 came up on one of the auction sites here.

I just won it for $1350.00

Now I just have to slot the motor into my Stelvio and modify the heads and Shazzam! Stelvio 1400!

Mark�s on board for mapping it while I�m away in the US! A 1400cc �Dirt� bike! How stupid is that? :evil:

Pete
Just stupid enough..
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 23, 2018, 01:01:35 AM
Wanna' sell your Stelvio donk and drivetrain if surplus to requirement, for duty in an '07 Norge ?

Sure. It’ll need a freshen up. New rings and camchains and a head service and i’ll Slip some shells in and we can talk money :laugh:

Pete
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: beetle on April 23, 2018, 01:28:17 AM
I look forward to thrashing the buggery out of it carefully remapping it.







Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: smdl on April 23, 2018, 01:38:42 AM
Subscribing to this thread.  I'm really interested to see how this comes out.  I've ridden an Audace, and that engine is epic.   :popcorn:

Cheers,
Shaun
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Paul Brooking on April 23, 2018, 01:50:41 AM
Subscribing to this thread.  I'm really interested to see how this comes out.  I've ridden an Audace, and that engine is epic.   :popcorn:

Cheers,
Shaun

What would you call this mystical beast?

"Stace" ?
"Stallifornian"?
"Stain"?
 :evil:
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Huzo on April 23, 2018, 02:07:01 AM
Sure. It�ll need a freshen up. New rings and camchains and a head service and i�ll Slip some shells in and we can talk money :laugh:

Pete
No laughing matter..
'Could be the genesis of a good idea.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Huzo on April 23, 2018, 02:08:24 AM
What would you call this mystical beast?

"Stace" ?
"Stallifornian"?
"Stain"?
 :evil:
Audacio..!
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Paul Brooking on April 23, 2018, 02:10:21 AM
Audacio..!

My Italian is non existent ... but that almost looks like a word? :cheesy:
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Huzo on April 23, 2018, 02:15:29 AM
My Italian is non existent ... but that almost looks like a word? :cheesy:
I'm coming over to Bat 11's on or about the 6th of next month to start our ride North.
Wanna' coffee and a pie floater ?
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 23, 2018, 02:24:01 AM
Subscribing to this thread.  I'm really interested to see how this comes out.  I've ridden an Audace, and that engine is epic.   :popcorn:

Cheers,
Shaun

Oh we know what fun a single spark 1400 can be having built one for Mark. Some weedy amount more HP but 10-12 ft/lbs of torque everywhere from 2K to where it goes ‘Blurp-Blurp-Blurp’! That in a Stelvio is just going to be ridiculous! :grin:

Pete
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Paul Brooking on April 23, 2018, 02:25:20 AM
I'm coming over to Bat 11's on or about the 6th of next month to start our ride North.
Wanna' coffee and a pie floater ?

That would be great ...

PM me details
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Huzo on April 23, 2018, 03:43:37 AM
That would be great ...

PM me details
ok, stay in touch with Ian ( bat 11)
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Muzz on April 23, 2018, 04:35:46 AM
I sense a hooligan bike coming up........ :evil: :thumb:
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 23, 2018, 05:17:07 AM
Nah, really, the 1200�s are fantastic bikes. There has been a whole lot of flannel thrown about on how and why they were �Retired�. My belief is that the pack of suits who run the show nowadays sat down, looked at the figures and took the short sighted view that the way forward was to abandon a multi-choice platform and concentrate on big cruisers and the �Convenience�, trendy market.

Now before any of the Nuevo Small Block brigade get on my case let me say I�m overjoyed thet you like and love your bikes but your bikes are a living fossil! Even Royal Enfield India is streets ahead in most ways. They aren�t interesting or innovative mechanically, they are in all ways a triumph of form over function, they have shitty suspension, use a forty year + old chassis that is way beyond its use by date.

The thing is that it doesen�t float my boat. I think it sucks that what used to be one of the most innovative companies in the world has been reduced to making, well, what it does.

The reason why I�m going to build a 1400 Stelvio is the same reason we built the 1400 Griso. Because it is, in a completely silly and un-necessary way it is a big *F#%&* you to a company that turned its back on almost a century of struggle and innovation and prostitutes the history of Moto Guzzi for a hand full of sand.

Forza Guzzi!
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: chuck peterson on April 23, 2018, 05:24:20 AM
It's not in the workshop manuals, you shouldn't do that, it's cross genetic splicing that could lead to obscene hideous creations of no good use to the world...they'll grow and reproduce spawning generations of tinker mechanics behind you trying to make cafe racers, street trackers and nonsensical mythical beasts...

I'm in.. :thumb:
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Murray on April 23, 2018, 05:46:51 AM
What would you call this mystical beast?

"Stace" ?
"Stallifornian"?
"Stain"?
 :evil:

In the spirit of the Elefant the obvious name would be gigantesco, it translates to english according to google. Scratch that this is a better translation  mammut.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 23, 2018, 05:54:58 AM
Giantesco? It’s English for big supermarket!
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: tris on April 23, 2018, 06:18:04 AM
Nah, really, the 1200�s are fantastic bikes. There has been a whole lot of flannel thrown about on how and why they were �Retired�. My belief is that the pack of suits who run the show nowadays sat down, looked at the figures and took the short sighted view that the way forward was to abandon a multi-choice platform and concentrate on big cruisers and the �Convenience�, trendy market......

... and sadly I suspect that this will be the truth

The whole corporate world appears these days appears to run scared of any innovation and forward thinking (Leon Musk being one of the few exceptions)

However, I sure that its safe to say that your machine will be better that the 1400 "Scrambler" that MG HQ will inevitably release at some point :sad: :sad:
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Murray on April 23, 2018, 06:30:34 AM
Giantesco? It�s English for big supermarket!

Or an awkward conversation with your GP.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Unkept on April 23, 2018, 09:36:20 AM
Nice catch Pete!  :thumb:

If they keep making 1400's, at least we'll have big heart transplants for the sporty Guzzi models we love.  :grin:
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: PJPR01 on April 23, 2018, 09:52:47 AM
A crashed Cali 14 came up on one of the auction sites here.

I just won it for $1350.00

Now I just have to slot the motor into my Stelvio and modify the heads and Shazzam! Stelvio 1400!

Mark�s on board for mapping it while I�m away in the US! A 1400cc �Dirt� bike! How stupid is that? :evil:

Pete

Will you also have to beef up the CARC in some way shape or form here Pete once the heart transplant takes place?  Thinking back to the series of cracked CARC's on the Stelvios - just curious if the larger engine will overwhelm other parts of the drive train?
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: rtbickel on April 23, 2018, 11:15:12 AM
Pete, where will you find the giant gnarly knobby tire it will require, and will you have to graft the 1400 swingarm/drive assembly to the CARC frame?  In any event, I wouldn't want to be behind you when it throws up a 100 foot roostertail of dirt when you nail it!  Can't wait to see the result. :drool:
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 23, 2018, 12:21:18 PM
Will you also have to beef up the CARC in some way shape or form here Pete once the heart transplant takes place?  Thinking back to the series of cracked CARC's on the Stelvios - just curious if the larger engine will overwhelm other parts of the drive train?

No need to beef anything up anywhere. All of the componentry is grossly ever built. There have been about four cases of swingarm failure recorded world wide over the twelve years of production of the CARC series bikes and they all seem to have been the result of cracks emanating from one of the hose clip holes in the swingarm casting.

As for the motive unit itself I’ll have to look at the gearbox ratios of the Cali 14 box and final drive to work out whether I can use the entire motive unit or if I’ll stick with a 1200 box. The 1400 box has the advantage of having a face cam shock absorber on the input shaft which the 1200’s for some reason lack.

Only other thing required will be a head swap and modifications to the single spark 1200 heads due to the different cooling circuits and we know how to do those as all the development work was done on Mark’s Griso 14.

As for tyres? The Conti TKC’s I’ve been running will do just fine.

Pete
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: rodekyll on April 23, 2018, 01:11:36 PM
I always get a kick out of people wetting themselves because they can't buy some farkle off a shelf somewhere, or there's something out there that attracts their attention, but they can't use it because the factory didn't put it there. 

I've got a hydro and a 1200 2v driving torque converters.  At a recent national rally, I saw a loop with a diesel engine.  I've seen hydraulic valve 850 engines, and we put flavors in drones, boats, and cars.

The whole point of owning Guzzis is chopping them up and making something else out of them.  So as long as it's some proper big block, ( :evil:) why not, indeed!

Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: JohninVT on April 24, 2018, 10:17:45 AM
TKC's with a 1400 engine?  They should last about 500 miles...lol.

Cool project!  How much does the 1400 engine and gearbox weigh compared to the 1200?   
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 24, 2018, 12:53:19 PM
TKC's with a 1400 engine?  They should last about 500 miles...lol.

Cool project!  How much does the 1400 engine and gearbox weigh compared to the 1200?   

I’ve been running TKC’s with Stelvio since I bought it, they wear just fine. I’m really hard on tyres for some reason and they’re lasting much better than the PR4’s on the Griso!

As for weight? The 1200 and 1400 engines are essentially identical apart from the heads and the difference with them is simply in the cooling system. Gearbox is slightly heavier due to the inclusion of the face cam shock absorber on the input shaft, that’s all. Dunno yet if i’ll Be using the gearboxas I haven’t checked the ratios.

Pete
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: beetle on April 24, 2018, 04:31:32 PM
(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/6b707910.jpg)



(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/86a54910.jpg)
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: steven c on April 24, 2018, 04:58:27 PM
 Sounds like a great idea!
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 24, 2018, 05:22:58 PM
(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/6b707910.jpg)



(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/86a54910.jpg)

Close enough as makes no odds then. Looks like it’ll be getting the gearbox too unless I find other differences I don’t know about.

Pete
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Huzo on April 24, 2018, 05:25:56 PM
That'll be a shortlist.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Turin on April 24, 2018, 07:47:06 PM
Pete... You know that you really want to stuff that drivetrain in a V7 smallblock Chassis.










 :evil:


Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Murray on April 24, 2018, 07:53:24 PM
Pete... You know that you really want to stuff that drivetrain in a V7 smallblock Chassis.

So bets on the frame twisting into a pile of spaghetti or the final drive exploding first?










 :evil:
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Turin on April 24, 2018, 08:01:49 PM
Mmmm spaghetti...
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 25, 2018, 02:16:55 AM
Well bought Pete, I saw it coming & guessed badly it would fetch $. Mad that v7wrecks sell at silly prices and this thing no one wants. Will be more, esp in US. At that money is cheaper than a roller fix.
But why change heads ?
Surely twin spark an advantage, Even if they only do it for emissions, same advantage in efficiency if you map to suit.
Then compare with one you’ve built already,
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 25, 2018, 04:16:40 AM
Actually Martin, no. While the excuse I was given by the visiting Piaggio suit when the 1400 was launched was that the extra plug was to prevent �surging� caused by end gas issues I was always a bit skeptical as there are plenty of engines with wider bores and similar, very compact, modern combustion chambers that only rely on a single spark, don�t �Sirge� and meet modern emissions standards.

The other story that leaked out, and seems to be far more relevant, is that the reason the extra plug was added, along with the rubber mounting of the motor, was to allow them to engineer in a *Shake* at idle! If you look at a Cali 14 at idle the motor jumps about in its mounts like a heffalump with St. Vitus Dance! Why would it do that? It�s intrinsically one of the smoothest twin cylinder designs possible yet it shakes? What�s that about? It�s about appealing to the �Cruiser� buyer who use a Harley as a benchmark. They vibrate and idle and have rubber mounts that isolate the rider. So a shaker motor must be good! QED!

What a crock!

Unlike most �Twin Spark� designs usually used with less modern combustion chamber shapes the 7SM uses four coils and allows for a staggered spark at lower RPM. At higher engine speeds the second spark is cut. If it was necessary for either emissions or preventing end gas issues and �Surging� it would be more relevant at higher RPM where burn times are proportionally far shorter than at lower engine speeds.

The 1400 uses substantially different cooling systems in the heads as well which is another reason why I�m happy to go with the single spark heads. They do need modification but cosmetically they work better, we don�t need to deal with the redundant plug or alternatively start all over again designing a new spark map, just tweak the 1200 ones, (That�s Mark�s area though. I just grunt and press buttons! :laugh:).

We stick with the W5AM controller simply because it�s easy and it works well. If we were to use the 7SM we would also need to use the entire rest of the RBW system and everything in the system that communicates by canbus. Then there is the reduction of cross sectional breathing area and the fact that the Cali 14 is speed limited, another thing that would need defeating. Why make it harder than it needs to be?

Pete
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 25, 2018, 05:46:24 AM
4 coil fire sounds good, innovitive people, like old days, forza guzzi
Nearly did same a few years ago, I get it,control 4 sparks, shame if hard to break into, concept is brilliant.
Dial out vibes, but burn every ounce.
BSFC
Everything is told by fuel consumption, try it, this mapped right will eat mk1
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 25, 2018, 06:13:07 AM
If you say so.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Rick4003 on April 25, 2018, 09:40:58 AM
Hi Pete,

Sounds like a good idea!

What are the actual differences in the cooling system? I'm guessing this is concerning the oil routing inside the head? or is it where it exits? Just guessing here though. Are the head castings for the 1200 and 1400 different or is it just a different valve cover?

The idea about the extra spark and the shaking sounds silly, but for guys who comes from Harleys maybe it is not easy to get used to a bike that doesn't shake about at idle....

-Ulrik
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: John A on April 25, 2018, 09:49:04 AM
is it a defect if it idles smoothly?
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Lcarlson on April 25, 2018, 10:03:52 AM
When you get right down to it, what difference does it make whether it shakes at idle or not?
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 25, 2018, 02:11:07 PM
It matters because of all the extra weight that it adds to the bike. It’s just a stupid idea.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: beetle on April 25, 2018, 04:45:36 PM
They do it with the Griso as well. Yes, thanks to Meinolf's work, the Idle Ignition table has been found. Look at this poxy thing.
4 degrees of advance at idle?   :violent1:

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/c42b1010.png)


I fix. My Griso purrs like a very big kitten, now.

(https://i.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/e91ac910.png)


Yeah, yeah. Shouldn't I let it rattle & shake like a big manly motorcycle should?  No. Don't bother to give me any crap about 'character'. Not interested.

It's only the 8V Griso that has this. The 2V and other 8V engines have sensible idle ignition tables.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: John A on April 25, 2018, 05:48:35 PM
Im not interested in a false idle either. Bikes can have enough trouble without adding in superfluous crap 
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: lucian on April 25, 2018, 07:02:37 PM
They do it with the Griso as well. Yes, thanks to Meinolf's work, the Idle Ignition table has been found. Look at this poxy thing.
4 degrees of advance at idle?   :violent1:

(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/f4c27e10.jpg)


I fix. My Griso purrs like a very big kitten, now.

(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/2a361210.jpg)

Could it be this simple on the 7sm?  Love to loose the stupid idle shaking.


Yeah, yeah. Shouldn't I let it rattle & shake like a big manly motorcycle should?  No. Don't bother to give me any crap about 'character'. Not interested.

It's only the 8V Griso that has this. The 2V and other 8V engines have sensible idle ignition tables.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: beetle on April 25, 2018, 07:19:29 PM
Yep. It's even worse on the 1400 Cali.


(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/13109210.png)
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: lucian on April 25, 2018, 07:31:17 PM
Yep. It's even worse on the 1400 Cali.


(https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/18/91/78/64/13109210.png)


If you need a crash test dummy I'm in. You have my custom 14 map.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 25, 2018, 08:18:23 PM
Actually Martin, no

Unlike most �Twin Spark� designs usually used with less modern combustion chamber shapes the 7SM uses four coils and allows for a staggered spark at lower RPM. At higher engine speeds the second spark is cut. If it was necessary for either emissions or preventing end gas issues and �Surging� it would be more relevant at higher RPM where burn times are proportionally far shorter than at lower engine speeds.

 which is another reason why I�m happy to go with the single spark heads. They do need modification but cosmetically they work better,

Pete

The table between inners and outers is the trick to first sentence. Obviously you fire both at revs but getting the right differential in low and mid is the trick.
My son had 4 cyl van that did this, two distributors with 8 plugs, idea not new, was silky smooth

Cosmetically they work better ?
Classic case of form over function, proper English is look better to you, subjective of course, others might prefer the effeciency, you can’t see it when you are twisting the agitator
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Wissing on April 25, 2018, 09:00:27 PM
If you need a crash test dummy I'm in. You have my custom 14 map.
:1:Let the Cali 1400 purr like a very, very big kitten!
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: oldbike54 on April 25, 2018, 11:28:51 PM
Im not interested in a false idle either. Bikes can have enough trouble without adding in superfluous crap

 Good grief , how are they getting a V twin to even run with 4 degrees of ignition lead ?

 Dusty
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: tris on April 26, 2018, 01:04:55 AM
They do it with the Griso as well. Yes, thanks to Meinolf's work, the Idle Ignition table has been found. Look at this poxy thing.
4 degrees of advance at idle?   :violent1:

You'd like to hope that there was a proper Engineer on the job who pushed back against the "stylists" until threatened with the sack before allowing that.

Still I'm one that can take the moral high ground as my B11 is unsullied  :laugh:
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 26, 2018, 04:54:39 AM
The table between inners and outers is the trick to first sentence. Obviously you fire both at revs but getting the right differential in low and mid is the trick.
My son had 4 cyl van that did this, two distributors with 8 plugs, idea not new, was silky smooth

Cosmetically they work better ?
Classic case of form over function, proper English is look better to you, subjective of course, others might prefer the effeciency, you can�t see it when you are twisting the agitator

So you are saying that the Piaggio/WM system is deeply flawed.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 26, 2018, 06:27:21 PM
So you are saying that the Piaggio/WM system is deeply flawed.

Thank you.

Only in sense that spark and fuel could be optimised , having 4 coils not the flaw, theoretically that should be advantage
Think someone posted recently they used Guzzidiag to tune 1400,  maybe the optimised map exists but I do understand if the rbw bit is too hard.
Too hard for me definitely, along with abs and tc
The geek will inherit the earh. Or Motec
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 26, 2018, 07:51:35 PM
Having two plugs per cylinder is unnecessary Martin. A well designed, modern, combustion chamber doesn't need it either for efficiency or emissions purposes. On an old semi head engine with a piston with an alp of alloy sitting on the deck there are of course advantages to using two plugs to promote rapid combustion. With a wonderful combustion chamber like the 8V's have it is an exercise in redundancy.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 26, 2018, 08:20:50 PM
Having two plugs per cylinder is unnecessary Martin. A well designed, modern, combustion chamber doesn't need it either for efficiency or emissions purposes. On an old semi head engine with a piston with an alp of alloy sitting on the deck there are of course advantages to using two plugs to promote rapid combustion. With a wonderful combustion chamber like the 8V's have it is an exercise in redundancy.

Odd that Ducati, BMW and I think KTM waste their money too, prob others still reaping gains
You need to wise em up, they spend millions on development, no ones told them this yet
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: Tusayan on April 26, 2018, 09:00:32 PM
KTM dual plug details here

https://www.ngk.de/en/news/ngk-press-release/article/ngk-spark-plug-europe-bleibt-exklusiver-zuendkerzenlieferant-fuer-leistungsstarke-ktm-motoren/

One sure fire sign that total BS is about to follow is when the word 'modern' is thrown about by casual observers of technology.
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 27, 2018, 12:59:35 AM
Good O!

Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: jacksonracingcomau on April 27, 2018, 02:00:21 AM
KTM dual plug details here

https://www.ngk.de/en/news/ngk-press-release/article/ngk-spark-plug-europe-bleibt-exklusiver-zuendkerzenlieferant-fuer-leistungsstarke-ktm-motoren/

One sure fire sign that total BS is about to follow is when the word 'modern' is thrown about by casual observers of technology.
Thanx for that, definitely modern and not BS, makes sense to me
Title: Re: Well? Why not?
Post by: pete roper on April 27, 2018, 04:41:16 AM
Thanx for that, definitely modern and not BS, makes sense to me

A bit of marketing fluff. Excellent.